Episode 101: Promotions are So Yesterday with Julie Winkle Giulioni

Julie Winkle Giulioni: 0:00

put the oxygen mask on yourself first. You all in HR. I mean, you can't help all the rest of us. If you're not breathing well yourselves take care of yourselves because these last couple of years have been hellacious for you. Probably more so than, than anyone else in the organization.

Kyle Roed: 0:19

This is the rebel HR Podcast, the podcast where we talk to HR innovators about all things people leadership. If you're looking for places to find about new ways to think about the world of work, this is the podcast for you. Please subscribe, favorite podcast listening platform today, and leave us a review. Rebel on HR rebels. Rebel HR listeners, we've got a great one queued up for you here this week we have with us Julie Winkle Giuliani. She is a champion for workplace growth and development, and helps executives and leaders optimize talent and potential within their organization. She's one of ink Magazine's Top 100 speakers and she is the author of promotions are so yesterday redefined career development. Welcome to the show.

Julie Winkle Giulioni: 1:10

Thanks so much, Kyle.

Kyle Roed: 1:14

Well, Julie, I'm really excited for this conversation, this is going to be super fun. We already we've spent like 15 minutes just chatting before I hit record. And I wish I would have hit record because we were just really getting into it already. So I want to start off because, you know, I first of all, I love the title of the book promotions are so yesterday because it is you know, a little bit challenging to the status quo. And really kind of turns everything on our heads as we think about career development. So what motivated you to write a book called promotions are so yesterday?

Julie Winkle Giulioni: 1:51

Well, I have to say, you know, deep into my heart, I'm not a huge rebel in most dimensions of my life. But when it comes to career development, that inner rebel, it just has come out. After working in this space, leadership development space in general for most of my career, and really delving deeply into career development over the last, you know, 10 or 15 years, it's just really become clear to me that, as organizations, as leaders, as employees, we have bought into such a limited definition of what career development is. And we've gotten to this place where somehow in our heads, careers, equal titles, career development equals promotions. And we're continuing to to measure success by these artificial yardsticks and markers. That for most organizations are in pretty short supply. So it's mathematically impossible to allow development for everyone who wants it, if we're going to continue to conflate development with with promotion. So that right from the title of the book, let's put it out there, we got to put promotions behind us as an exclusive definition of what career success is and find some new, more expansive definitions if we're gonna be able to engage and retain talent.

Kyle Roed: 3:24

I love that approach. And I think it's what's really interesting, as you mentioned, that is, you know, it's a very systematic way to think about it. But the math if, if you think about the the opportunity for people to grow their careers within your organization, the math just doesn't really work. Right?

Julie Winkle Giulioni: 3:43

You're right. In fact, you know, we used to think of career development as a ladder. But that's not even, like mathematically accurate because organizations get more narrow as they get up. I mean, it's a pyramid or a pinhead in some cases for, for organizations, I was working with one organization, and they brought in PhD economists, you know, who were the best and the brightest moved through the organization. And they hit a certain level, and they called it the bold and they would have this bolt of talent where, you know, folks had this expectation they were going to keep moving forward like they had. And yet, as you said, the math of the organization failed them. There's birth of promotions available. And so without an expanded definition of what a career is, and how development operates. Folks like that, and folks throughout organizations worldwide, are bumping up against a very dissatisfying bolt in their careers.

Kyle Roed: 4:54

Hmm. You know, that's a really interesting image. I think about it. It's kind of like a funnel, right? Once you fill the funnel up, you're not getting anything else coming out out the bottom of it. And then what happens when the top starts to spill over? Right? And and, you know, the way to think about that is people quit because they're not they're not able to fit right through the organization. So that's the bold, that's interesting.

Julie Winkle Giulioni: 5:21

And I love your metaphor, because you're right. And it does, it evokes exactly the image of what we're seeing right now, which is people making the choice, or making the determination that they don't have a future here, and making the choice to go somewhere where they've got a more promising future. I guess the other danger is, you know, we've got the people falling out of the funnel, but we've got some folks staying in the funnel, but disengaging you know, being disappointed and feeling disrespected, and feeling overlooked. And so they show up every day, but they're certainly not bringing the best that they have to offer.

Kyle Roed: 6:07

Dad, that's a, that's a really great point. The other thing, I'm thinking too, we could go so many that we don't have time to dig in all of the different ways you could go with this. But the other thing, too, is who's actually getting through the funnel, you know, is it? Is it actually the best leaders? Or the best fit? Or are they the ones that are just the best at navigating the path and the politics and the you know, and getting, you know, gaining favor with the right people? I mean, there's, you know, I don't know how how much research, you could point to that, you know, not necessarily everybody getting to middle management and above does so because of their, you know, objective qualifications.

Julie Winkle Giulioni: 6:49

Yeah, that's a really, really good point, Kyle. And I think the other thing that we probably don't have time to dig into in the the detail it deserves, is the motivation of those folks for moving into the mid and higher levels of management. Because, you know, when I talk to a lot of folks who say, you know, I'm ready to move up, I'm ready to take that next step and be a leader. When I talk to them about what is it about that role you're looking forward to, you know, what is it that you think you're going to be doing, that's really going to bring you satisfaction, which skills and talents and whatnot, are you looking forward to bring it to bear, there are some blank stares coming from across the zoo, or the the desk. And so a lot of us have just reflexively anticipated that we're going to keep moving up that ladder, there's, it's kind of a weird thing, when people think about careers, it's almost like a trigger word, it hijacks the brain, and just takes us to that place of, of climbing the ladder. And so a lot of people who are moving into leadership are doing so maybe without the motivation that we would want leaders to step into those roles? Well,

Kyle Roed: 8:04

absolutely, absolutely. It's like the, you know, I'm sure every single listener is nodding their heads, when I say this, it's the individual contributor, that was a great individual contributor, and felt like the only way to move up within the organization was to move into management. And let's just say they should have stayed an individual contributor.

Julie Winkle Giulioni: 8:27

Yeah, you know, both for themselves for their own satisfaction, as well as the organization's because I mean, we know and when you don't do well, in management, it's hard to take that step back to being an individual contributor in your own organization, you're going to go, probably make that move backward, but you're not going to do it in that public forum of your peers will do it for another organization. So, you know, putting, putting great individual contributor talent into the management pool prematurely, can can hurt the organization as well, the loss of talent.

Kyle Roed: 9:04

Absolutely. So I think, you know, one of the things that I'd like to get into a little bit is, you know, the actual definition of career development, because I think about career development. It's so massively broad, like, you could go so many different ways with it, like is this learning and development now it's career development, what's difference? And, you know, is this like, Does this mean I get to put someone in an executive coaching course to get, you know, or is, you know, so why don't we maybe step back a little bit and how should we be defining career development within organizations?

Julie Winkle Giulioni: 9:39

I love that question so much. In fact, I was just writing an article on this and wondered, get to what extent is the word career even getting in our way? Because it does be it does evoke images of a an orderly progression through one's life ever upward to that next level of success. And those images are much more akin to maybe what our parents experience back in the cradle to grave days where you'd work for the same company for, you know, your whole life and get your gold watch and your pension and be on your way. And of course, you know, now with like, 10 years or down to like, four, you probably know this better than I Kyle down to about four years on average.

Kyle Roed: 10:28

Yeah, yeah, if you're lucky, four years is, in certain industries, four years is like, you know, extremely tenured.

Julie Winkle Giulioni: 10:37

Yeah. And on average, we're going to 12 jobs and over the course of our life, so what does career really mean? In today's environment? So over the last 10 years, my first book came out about 10 years ago, it's called help them grow or watch them go. And I've done tons of speaking and consulting and training around that. And the question that I always ask people is, what does career mean to you? Because it's, it's one of those things that we just don't think about, we allow the the default setting to come forward. And it's really interesting, because, of course, you know, many people begin with that first layer of it's what I do to take care of myself and my family to provide. But then things get pretty deep. And the range of ways people talk about what career means to them, is pretty extraordinary. And so over those last 10 years of taking this information in the pattern started to emerge. And what I recognized was that, in addition to that, climb up the corporate ladder, that probably will be with us, you know, as as one definition of success with our careers forever. There are seven other domains or seven other dimensions that are really important to people, dimensions of their career that matter, and ways they want to grow, that carry great meaning for them. And so, way, what I ultimately did was to take that information and create what we're referring to as the multi dimensional career framework, which offers seven alternatives to that classic definition of climb. And would it be okay, if I just shared what those were real fast, please? Alright, there's contribution, competence, connection, confidence, challenge, contentment, choice, and then the climb. And there, yeah, obviously, there are times in all of our careers where climb is absolutely appropriate. The problem is managers and employees, they don't have very much control over the when the why the how the who of those promotions, whereas they absolutely own those other seven dimensions, they are the boss of that space. And together, they can choose to jointly identify ways for growth to happen, right there in the workplace, in the here and now without organizationally sanctioned or approved or, or required elements at all.

Kyle Roed: 13:33

Absolutely, so I'm gonna pause right here. So everybody can go hit the back button on their podcast player and write down all those seven different things. Or you can pick up the book, which literally has all those things to find, and like toolkits and assessments and all sorts of things to look through. And, you know, one of the things that I really appreciated as I was reading through this was, it's really pragmatic, it's really kind of a, it's a toolkit. And it really does challenge the way that we think about career development it but what I think was so maybe profound and important, from my perspective, as you were speaking and sharing your perspective here is that, you know, this is an individual journey for somebody, right? And you can't just put together this massive, huge structural HR thing and say, check that off, career development is done. We got that figured out. Right? Like, it's just not how it works.

Julie Winkle Giulioni: 14:33

You know, you are so right. And it's it's kind of heartbreaking, Kyle because folks like yourself, HR practitioners and leaders are working so hard to make tools available to enable managers and leaders who are so busy to find ways to make career development happen. And what unfortunately happens sometimes claims is that those systems seem to to become the foreground. And the relationship, the conversation gets kind of moved toward the background for sure. And, and it is, I mean, development is so unique to the individual. It'd be nice if it was a one size fits all sort of solution. But increasingly, I'm kind of using the word bespoke, which I love. I just love that word. But I had gone to a lounge. And the bartender, there was no menu, the bartender did this whole intake around, what do you like? What's your vibe? Which alcohol? What is sweet or savory? And how are you feeling tonight and totally understood where I was coming from that evening and created this amazing cocktail that I would never have been able to order, because I didn't know the way he could see how those pieces came together. And I almost am imagining leaders. I don't know if this is a good analogy, actually, as the the mixologist here, the developmental mixologist, really helping employees understand which of these dimensions are most important to you right now? How do you want to grow? What is success looking like right now? And then how can we create this career cocktails where you, that's going to move you in the direction that you want?

Kyle Roed: 16:30

I love that career cocktail, I'm thirsty. And if anybody's asking it's it's bourbon on the rocks, but you know, depending on the day, maybe less rocks, you know, at the end of the day. But I do think it's, it's it's such an interesting insight. And I, I think, you know, as much as we want to think in HR that, you know, we've we've got some of the answers. And we're kind of the, you know, we're the experts in this sort of a realm, you know, I think being open with ourselves and saying, you know, what, I just all that we can really do is give people access to the tools and learning and enable them to use them, and then hope that they do it, and hope that we've kind of created the environment in the culture to be successful with it. But But I do think it's, it's one of those things that, you know, I think you and I both understand this, it is probably a bigger challenge to try to articulate this point to somebody who is thinking, in those kind of those hierarchal terms about, hey, you go here, and then you go to this next level, and then you go to this, this next level, as opposed to here, you go here, and then you go over there. And then you go over here, and maybe you come back here again, and and oh, you know, even the novel idea that maybe we should ask them what their goals are before we start to do career development planning for employees. You know, so So how do you take these these insights? And how do you cascade them out to the the leaders that are actually doing most of the work the the kind of the frontline leaders in those in those senior leaders?

Julie Winkle Giulioni: 18:01

Yeah, well, I want to just go back, because you've said so much here, I don't want to miss any of it. I really the the HR practitioners and executives that I work with, they are expert, and they are doing a marvelous job of creating the tools. And I'm really making every effort to create a culture right now, that is embracing and enabling the kind of growth that people are demanding, you know, I'm seeing HR executives and practitioners working harder than ever to make that happen. So I just want to apply each of you who's out there doing that, that work day in and day out. And so, so that said, You're absolutely right, the the way we kind of fall into thinking about career development, is either up that ladder, or you know, a lot of organizations have introduced my last book, you know, we use the climbing wall or the lattice or the jungle gym. But even that shares one structural challenge, which is it demands people are going somewhere to be growing, right? It's a move, it's a new position, it's the new title, they're calling me something different. I'm in a new space. And even lateral moves, they might not be as available today, as they were, you know, especially in organizations that are going remote. There used to be those geographic boundaries, that limited competition. Now with those gone, competition for internal roles is greater, you know, than ever. So, again, if we keep linking career development with movement, we're going to set people up to be dissatisfied. And so the the, the way I I think we radiate this out, is to take a step even further back to say, What about where you are right now, you know, beyond Between, besides all of the promotions and roles and titles, and all of that stuff that has us moving around, it's that that liminal space in between where the growth is really happening. And how can we use that space to create meaningful development for folks? It was interesting, I knew this multi dimensional career framework was valid, because it came from real people. But in my heart, I really wondered, like, if people had a choice, and they were ranking this stuff, where would it all fall? And I had my own, you know, hypothesis here. But we did some research with about 750 folks worldwide. And just ask them to rank those eight things, contribution, competence, connection, confidence, challenge, contentment, choice and climb, just simply rank them in terms of what you're most interested in. And the results, Kyle, they blew me away, because in aggregate, across ages, genders levels, contribution was the number one most interesting of the dimensions. And again, in aggregate, the climb was the least interesting. And it really made me feel like, I must be hungry this morning, because I'm going to use now a food metaphor to add on to my drinks. You know, it made me feel like, we've been offering a really limited menu to people, we've said, career development careers, if that's equal to promotion, and so that's what everybody's ordering up, we don't pick one of those. But when we expand the menu, and we put these other things on it, we discovered there's a lot of interest in these other dimensions. And simply sharing that awareness with managers is huge. It unburdens them, I can see, you know, the burden lifted from their shoulder, because they've been so afraid to have these conversations thinking they don't have what people want. And they absolutely can deliver that what people want, because those other seven dimensions are within their domain.

Kyle Roed: 22:08

That's fascinating. And I think, you know, to it, it just, it makes sense. If you think about it, you know, on a broader scale, you know, how, how long does, you know, a promotion or a job title change really make you happier? You know, I mean, you know, depending on the research, you look at, it's like, maybe nine weeks, maybe 10 weeks, you know, it's like, it's like when you buy something new, you're excited about it for about that long, and then eventually, you're, you're on to the new thing, and it's but what is lasting, right, it's the, you know, the ability to impact others in to make a difference and to, you know, to enjoy the work that you're doing on a daily basis. I mean, it, it makes sense logically, but it's not how we structure things. A lot of times, it's not how it's not how the old you know, kind of hierarchical system thinks. And so I guess the question on that is, if contribution is the most important thing on the on the aggregate, you know, of course, we're talking kind of generalities here, not everybody's gonna feel that way. Exactly. But, in general, if contribution matters so much, how can we structure and think about these career development systems to allow for that, that contribution to to be as impactful as people want it to be?

Julie Winkle Giulioni: 23:33

Yeah, yeah, great question. And I think it starts with, and I'm kind of going back to something you said earlier, it starts with asking people, What contribution looks like to them. It starts with having some candid conversations about how people want to show up, how they want to step up, what kind of difference they want to make, how they want to be of service to others into the organization. And those are pretty deep conversations. I mean, those demand that there's a trusting relationships, some psychological safety, history, you know, that's not something where day one, you get people talking about, you know, my, what does work in life mean to me? And so, so the first thing is, I think we need to help managers and leaders understand that developments or relationship, give them the skills to be able to build those relationships. So they earn the right to engage in something as intimate as development is and to have conversations about what contribution means to people. But once we get that information out on the table, Kyle, I mean, it is Open Season, when you understand what someone's purpose is what they're values are how they want to live on purpose. There are enormous opportunities in most organizations to align that their purpose with the organization's when you hear that someone will see the problem and wants to step in and fix it. I mean, what manager is not enough to say, No, thank you? No. I mean, it's the ultimate when when, when someone is willing to do more, the key is it's got to be reciprocal. So it's really easy. You know, and we do this a lot. As managers, we, we throw developmental opportunities at people, and I'm using air quotes. Yes, I say that. And, you know, it's people see more work masquerading as development a mile away, right? So it's got to be reciprocal. So if someone's willing to step into a void, for instance, and make something better than what makes it developmental, is that we've got a plan on the front end about what they're getting out of it as well, the organization's gonna win, obviously, but what are you going to learn? How are you going to be different? On the other end of this, you know, how will your network have expanded to support your efforts in the future, whatever it might be, it's got to be a quid pro quo. Otherwise, it's, you know, just a bunch of drudgery rather than development.

Kyle Roed: 26:23

I'm laughing because it's like, you know, the, the joke, I love nothing more than like trying to dissect the whole corporate speak thing, right. But I've for years, I've said, you know, what a developmental opportunity is and corporate speak, it's just something that really sucks to do that we branded as a developmental opportunity. So people will actually do it, right. But at the end of the day, it's just something nobody else wants to do. So here you go, here's this developmental opportunity, this is really going to expand your influence.

Julie Winkle Giulioni: 26:52

And yet, even the really sucky work that needs to get done, if it aligns with someone's goals. And if the manager and the employee are really intentional about it, and work feverishly to keep the development in the foreground, it can be a positive experience, and you get the sucky work done as well.

Kyle Roed: 27:18

Absolutely, I think about it, you know, it's, it's one of those things that we talk about, not just in career development, but also in just, you know, in like team building and team structuring and organizational development, it's like, you're trying to find the right fit between that what that position actually does and what that person actually wants to do. Right. And like, when you find it, it's like, you find the right chair for someone to sit in. And they love it, and you don't have to do it, it's like, that's, that's what we're all really just trying to get out and HR, like, if we could do one thing, it's just get everybody in the right spot in the organization to leverage their gifts as much as possible. And, you know, eventually all the other stuff will sort itself out, right?

Julie Winkle Giulioni: 27:58

Yeah, that is totally the goal. And just building on that sometimes, from a developmental standpoint, the seats got to be adjusted a little bit, right. And so I might be in the right seat, but gosh, the arm, you know, I need an arm, that's gonna make me stretch down a little bit further out a little bit farther. And, and so that's, that's the beauty of, of a manager really understanding the big picture is, you know, are there ways to make those adjustments? You know, maybe Kyle wants more of something that his teammate wants less of, and how can we shuffle not just the chairs, but the cushions and a few other accoutrements around to create, you know, to do the job crafting and that sort of thing, that creates the experience that allows each individual not just to, you know, contribute, because got to get the work done. I mean, that's why we're here, but to make sure that they're growing and developing in ways that are meaningful every day.

Kyle Roed: 29:06

Absolutely. And then, you know, to build off that it's just again, this goes right back to It's so individual, but if you get it right, you know, that's, that's really what we should all be striving to do as leaders, I think, you know, I'm thinking about in terms of an example here, and I'll just use myself as a kind of a proxy for this. So I'm thinking about, you know, my early career, my goal was, you know, I want to be whatever, some C suite, whatever, at some point in my career, and it was the corporate, corporate drudgery, and it was like, you just, you kind of turned into a corporate bot. And, you know, you fought the play along and follow the script. And eventually you get there if you're, you know, if you get the right networks and so on and so forth. Then I got to a point in my career, I'm like, I don't I don't think I want to I don't want to climb that ladder, but I want to grow and I want to I want to be challenged I want to stretch and I you know, I'm more interested in like doing that like, internally in Like, you know, personal growth and maybe not as worried about the title or the, or the structure. And then what I found out in my current role was, I really like absolutely no structure. I like having a completely blank piece of paper, and somebody going, Hey, I think we need to go do this, why don't you go figure that out? Like, for me, that's the biggest opportunity for me to grow and develop and learn. But I wouldn't have gotten to that point, I wouldn't have even known that if I had not had a leader, who was kind of pushing me to think in those terms and saw that, hey, I think he enjoys this, let's push him this way. And let's see where we end up. And it was, you know, it was some of those assignments where it was completely a completely a stretch within my current role. It wasn't like I got this new job. And now I've got this new skill set, it was a skill set I built within my current role. And that allowed me to be successful in future roles. And I really think like, you know, that's, that's kind of the sweet spot. Now, my current organization if I was so, like, if I was stuck on the ladder, I wouldn't have anywhere to go. Because the next level up, we're a small organization, I would be CEO for me, which is unrealistic with my current skill set, like, I'd have to step over and have to step out and I, you know, and I don't want to do that. I'm having fun right now. Right? So it's like, yeah, it's just so individual, it's different. And with the right leader, kind of guiding that, and and having that that open. You know, that true open communication mindset and kind of working through what an employee's goals and motivations are, you know, you, you know, that's what it takes.

Julie Winkle Giulioni: 31:37

Yeah, yeah, it's so so insightful. And you did just to amplify two things. One is, it is so easy to overlook the folks who aren't the vocal climbers. And as you were saying, how many people who are climbing and making it into those roles, it's because they understand the how to navigate the political landscape. And they're being vocal about it. It's easy to forget about the folks who aren't saying anything about development. But I will guarantee you that nine out of 10 of them are absolutely wanting to grow. I just read I'm sure you've seen the statistic that employees who don't perceive growth opportunities are seven point times, I'm sorry, 7.9 times more eager to leave, even if they like their job. So somebody can be happy, you're perfectly satisfied right where they are. But if they don't feel like there's an opportunity to grow, now, they're going to be looking for greener pastures. And so overlooking that quiet majority, you know, I think that we do that at our peril. And then the second thing that you said, that is just so true, is you had a leader who helped you think this through, I really have come to, to believe that career development is a team sport, nobody can do it get gets out of this alone. And to the extent that leaders can help support folks in the kind of meaningful reflection that's required to really get past that default, societal thinking around what careers are and how they operate, I mean, leaders to do that. But also thinking in terms of other team members, you know, leaders aren't the only ones who have insights and can help Spark Spark growth and hold people accountable. Our peers can do that too. And so as individuals, maybe we need to also be thinking about disrupting the kind of the one on one exclusive relationship with our manager and creating a broader network and village around us.

Kyle Roed: 33:50

Yeah, you just, you know, it's funny, you just that comment, got bought a lot of emotion back for me, because the person that I'm talking about his name's Eric Richards, and he, he passed away a few years ago from from brain cancer. And when I was I was probably five years into my career, I was pretty new in the HR field, I kind of fell into it, like many HR people didn't know what I was doing. And I was kind of in that that rat race of just the climb, right. And I was trying to do, trying to do what was what others wanted me to do, as opposed to what was truly, you know, the, you know, my the integrity of my character. And he looked at me and he had a southern accent, he was just, he was like, the least PC HR person you ever met, but he was asked me and he was just like, Listen, man, I don't care what you think you want to be. What do you actually want to be? Who do you want to be? What do you want to stand for? What do you want people to think about you? You know, and it was like it was like that honesty and that like that just like blunt you know, force of, you know, questioning my character. For me, it was enough for me to realize, okay, I need to step back and I need to find that, right. And that wasn't that had nothing to do with my career change had nothing to do with my job title, nothing to do with a promotion, it had everything to do with me as a person, and and who I wanted to be at work and you know, it was that kind of that formative as well as other number of mentors out there. That yeah, it is a team sport. And sometimes you need a coach to, to push you a little bit and and you know, kind of, you know, lovingly push you push you beyond your, your horizons within your current role. So,

Julie Winkle Giulioni: 35:33

you know, may Mr. Richards, rest in peace, bless him for asking those hard questions. Who do you want to be? Not? What do you want to be? And that's where we get ourselves all tangled up? Who do you want to be? What do you want to do? Those are the questions that leaders who are really making a developmental difference are asking

Kyle Roed: 36:00

now, yeah, for him and everybody else, you know, I just, I owe so much. And I just, you know, I'm blessed to have have had some of those influences in my life. And, yeah, on a personal level, I think this for me, this is a really important topic. And one of those things that I think we're all kind of, we're also going through this career development journey, right? Everybody in HR deserves to have career development as a part of their lives as well. And so you know, think about that. And as you read through this book, and as you think about some of these things, oh, god, me personally,

Julie Winkle Giulioni: 36:33

yeah, put the oxygen mask on yourself. Are you all in eight? Are you I mean, you can't help all the rest of us. If you're not breathing? Well, yourselves. Take care of yourselves. Because these last couple of years has been hellacious for you. Probably more so than than anyone else in the organization.

Kyle Roed: 36:53

Absolutely. And if anybody wants to grab a bourbon on the rocks, you know how to find me. But, Julie, this is just an absolutely wonderful conversation. We're coming up on the end of our time together. And I know you are extremely, extremely busy, but I do want to get your answer to the rebel HR flash round questions. So no, right. All right, here we go. Question number one, what is your favorite people book?

Julie Winkle Giulioni: 37:19

I am reading smart growth by Whitney Johnson right now. And it is fabulous. She's, she's just elegant and eloquent in her writing. But this is really a great book for anyone in HR learning and development. Anyone who's interested in learning and growth.

Kyle Roed: 37:37

Awesome. Whitney Johnson, I have not read that book, but I will put it on the the Amazon list. So

Julie Winkle Giulioni: 37:42

she, uh, please do you know, she uses the S curve and all of her work and she is now aligned it with, with learning and growth. And it's just, it's a great model.

Kyle Roed: 37:52

Awesome. Okay, perfect. Who should we be listening to?

Julie Winkle Giulioni: 37:57

All right, is this too trite to say your employees in light of what we've been talking about? You know, at the end of the day, they will tell you everything you need to know about the customer about the work process about how to improve the business about how to motivate and engage and retain them. The key is we got to be listening.

Kyle Roed: 38:20

Absolutely. And sometimes all you have to do is ask, right? Open the door, walk around, asking or Right. Absolutely. All right. Last question. How can our listeners connect with you?

Julie Winkle Giulioni: 38:33

Probably the best source is my website, which is my name Julie Winkle giuliani.com. And with more vowels and consonants in it, I trust that you will put that in the show notes. And the new book promotions are so yesterday is available for pre order at all your fine booksellers.

Kyle Roed: 38:54

Absolutely, we will have that in the show notes, I can guarantee it. And really looking forward to our listeners responding to to the book and reading through this, I just think there's so much actionable information in here. And it's really been distilled into something that truly can be a tool, a framework, as opposed to, you know, a 700 page, you know, paperweight so really appreciate the work and the effort that went into this. Some fascinating insights and, and great advice for all of us HR practitioner. So Julie, thank you so much for spending some time with us. And check out a copy of the book.

Julie Winkle Giulioni: 39:34

Thank you so much. It's been a pleasure, Kyle.

Kyle Roed: 39:37

Thank you. All right. That does it for the rebel HR podcast. Big thank you to our guests. Follow us on Facebook at rebel HR podcast, Twitter at rebel HR guy, or see our website at rebel human resources.com. The views and opinions expressed by rebel HR podcast are those the authors and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or business Have any of the organizations that we represent No animals were harmed during the filming of this podcast maybe