RHR 110: Supporting Lower-Income Workers with Sabina Bhatia

Sabina Bhatia: 0:00

HR needs to step up, get rid of paternalism stand up for your own people, your people have made a commitment to come in and deliver on what you have promised your clients. Now it's your opportunity, step up for them and take care of them. Because that's the only way a business will survive. You need to start with your people first.

Kyle Roed: 0:23

This is the rebel HR Podcast, the podcast where we talk to HR innovators about all things people leadership. If you're looking for places to find about new ways to think about the world of work, this is the podcast for you. Please subscribe, favorite podcast listening platform today. And leave us a review. Rebel on HR rebels. All right, rebel HR listeners extremely excited for our guests this week. Thank you for joining us with us today we have Sabina Bhatia, she is the Chief Customer Officer at pay active, she is an accomplished C suite leader and the customer champion tires tirelessly fighting for the financial wellness of every American worker. As a Chief Customer Officer at pay active she acts as a daily advocate and an amplifier for the needs of 1000s of corporate clients and millions of lower income workers. Welcome to the show, Sabina.

Sabina Bhatia: 1:18

Girl, thank you so much for having me. So excited to be here.

Kyle Roed: 1:22

Well, we are really excited to have you as well. And I'm really interested to have this conversation because I think it's really timely. As we take a look at kind of our, you know, our economic environment. There's all sorts of headlines around, you know, inflation and fears of recession and kind of turmoil. And I think one of the areas that continuously comes up and is presented to HR is the concern about our lower income workers. And so I really kind of want to talk about that a little bit today, understand a little bit more about how you know, pay active is helping to address that concern and, and just kind of dig into into your focus a little bit. So just to get all of our listeners kind of acclimated to to the work you do, can you just tell us a little bit about, you know, pay active and how they're how they're looking at this, this challenge.

Sabina Bhatia: 2:22

Pay active, started about eight years back. So I would say 2014. And how we started was to be a provider of earned with a wage access. So as the words say, this is not a loan, it's not a credit, it's a yo earn wages. And what we saw was that there was a huge community within this richest country in the world called the United States of America, that was operating like a third world country. So today, we have 46% of the US workforce is working in the frontline of industries. And these are the workers that are making, you know, under $25 an hour. It's very expensive to be poor for them. And we'll get into more of the details. But that was really the problem that we needed to solve. And so we looked back at what can we do. Now, you know, technology can be used in many ways, in the good and the bad. It sometimes adds value. And sometimes it only adds short term value. And that's just not what we wanted to do. We wanted to provide a lifeline of support to this 45 46% of the US workforce. So what piatto does is we work directly with businesses, and on purpose. We think businesses are created to add value for good and they can do a lot. So we work directly with businesses to give their people their employees their workers access to the earned but unpaid wages between pay periods. So easiest set in the form of a story. Sabina Clarkson today. She works in a manufacturing facility at around five o'clock six o'clock she plucks out does she get paid that day? No, she doesn't. She has to work. She has to work through the end of the pay period. And then when payroll is processed, she gets paid. But Sabina makes 12 $30 an hour. She can afford to wait for 6789 10 days to get paid. She has transportation costs, she has grocery pass she could have emergencies. Now all these liquidity issues that Sabina needs to solve. And so she cannot solve it and the employer wants to solve it. But they don't have the right technology to solve it. So that's why pay active comes in, we work directly with the employer. And an employee can access a percentage of their earned but unpaid wages up to 90%. And wherever payroll is processed, those funds come back to us. So that is where payout have started. But then we realized, after I tell you this, I'll pause because otherwise I'll lose the attention span of my listeners. As we grew within the industry, as we work with more and more businesses, we learned that businesses just really cared for their people, they just didn't know how to make their lives better. So the request was to provide more than just earn wage access. Today, the workers have access to the liquidity, but they also have true financial wellness on our platform. So they now they can say they have a discount marketplace, they can access their wages, in many ways, we become a alternative to their banking partner. So we are not a bank. But we become the choice for our users to use in in as an alternative to that financial services. So they can do a lot on our platform, and really live the life they've earned through piatto. And that's really what pay atom is.

Kyle Roed: 6:46

Interesting. So, you know, I think, you know, as an HR professional, I'm sure many, many of us are probably sitting here thinking about those conversations that they've had where, you know, an employee has maybe been struggling to make ends meet and has asked for, you know, a paycheck advance. And many times the answer, at least in my case has been well, you know, we just, we really don't do that, you know, or we don't have that capability. Or, in some cases, I've had a, you know, a manager, actually, you know, give a personal loan, you know, to help someone kind of float to the, to the end of the, to the end of the payroll cycle. And, you know, and yeah, so I mean, I mean, I think that story certainly resonates. I'm curious, Sabina, what, what brought you what, into this into this world, what was kind of your, your moment of awareness of this, this problem is challenged in our society.

Sabina Bhatia: 7:53

I've been very fortunate to be surrounded by bosses, and CEOs and mentors, that always gave me the opportunity to build to be part of innovation, to think outside the box. So I'm very thankful to all those colleagues. So now go back about 25 years. I'm from New York, you know how to Wall Street job worked as a hedge fund analyst in New York City. And then 2008 happened. And when 2008 happened, I saw a lot of my colleagues, most of them that were making, you know, six figures, right and more, have a really hard time struggled through the financial distress of 2008. Now, I'm talking about those that are making six figures and up. So think about those that are making under $20. You know, what is their life look like? But 2008 happen. And personally, I just thought that I was just too old for the hedge fund universe. I thought I was not being innovative. I thought I wasn't doing anything fun and creative anymore. You know, my life had just become a process. And everyone around me will tell you that Sabina is not a person who can be stuck in the middle of a process. So I needed to do something disruptive. Something crazy. And I lived in California before. So I think it was a good time for me to reconsider it. So I have a pretty strong finance background. You know that the usual MBA in finance, worked on Wall Street, worked in New York did all that. But I was always very fascinated with technology. But I my fascination never got to the level where I could understand the value add because I'm not a technologist. So I didn't really understand the capabilities. I thought it was just amazing what people can do but technology and Sometimes, I was a victim of technology, and sometimes it added great value. So I decided that I would move back to California. And I was very much encouraged by everyone around me. And I wanted to join a FinTech firm. My background is of startups. So, you know, piatti was a startup at that point. And I was given the opportunity to help build and grow it. So I moved to California. And I thought orig access was a no brainer, why aren't people doing it? I understood that as lack of communication, we need to communicate it better, we need to educate people better, we need to pass the knowledge better. And believe it or not, when I started here, I started as head of marketing, I do not have any marketing, anything, a lot of marketing, but it's the message part of it, which I knew, and I understood. And that's how I joined the pay actor. I was not hired, I joined, because I saw a huge potential. And I was correct. So that is my story. And that is what I was empowered to do.

Kyle Roed: 11:22

That's awesome. And, you know, I think, sounds like a rebel HR person to me so perfect, that I get that, you know, wanting to disrupt. And I think, I think that's so, so powerful. And I actually think this is something I wanted to talk about, because you know, you do a lot just obviously, through the work that you do at pay active, but you're also involved in in, you know, the conscious capitalism movement. And I think one of the things that's, that's so powerful about human resources and capitalism in general is that the concept of you know, creative destruction, and and disrupting the way that we do things was something that's a better way to do it. And then letting that kind of the merit of that idea win in the marketplace. So I'd like to ask you a little bit about some of your, you know, some of your work as it relates to conscious capitalism and improving the world that we live in through capitalistic endeavors.

Sabina Bhatia: 12:29

Absolutely. So conscious capitalism believes that businesses good, it creates value, it creates a trifecta impact on communities and businesses. That's the social impact of it. So there is a lot that we do that is conscious. And so just go back to looking at just our platform, we started with our own wage access. But that is not enough. We have to look at the holistic view of our user, all the little things that are happening in their lives, that is actually disrupting our economy. Also, let me give you an example. When an hourly worker does not get access to their earned but unpaid wages. Now, let's you and me try to be employers and not parents, for our people. Okay, they have parents, let's not go the paternalistic route, it doesn't help anyone. But when our hourly workers don't get access to that liquidity, they ended up paying overdraft fees. Today, on an annual basis, close to 25 billion is spent on overdraft fees. Kyle, now you tell me instead of spending the 25 billion on overdraft fees, and helping financial giants? How about you take that 25 billion and put it back into the economy? How great would that be? That's a simple little thing. That is one of the problems we are solving. But going back to the things we could do with the technology that we have. And I'm surrounded by super intelligent technologists over here and engineers that I can say that I'm not one of them, but I see the potential of what they've created, right for us. And that's where comes our technology. And I tell the user that I can do a few things. I can tell you, I'm going to charge you a tremendous amount but less than an overdraft fee to access your wages. Okay, so instead of charging $35 for an overdraft fee, I'm going to charge you $25 To access your own but unpaid wages. That's not right. It just doesn't work that way. Right. We already saying it's expensive to be poor. So I don't want to just give them an alternative, I want to give them their right to access what they've earned. So today on our platform, we have a zero cost model for our employees. And we have the reasonable $1 or $2 Price models for our users, I then have to do that. I'll tell you one thing that recently happened during the pandemic, we went ahead and we told all our users, we will not charge you any fear or none at all, Kyle, nothing, zilch, nada, for 60 days. Now, what I could have done, is understand that the hourly worker wants their funds instantly, they can wait till tomorrow, right? They want the funds instantly. So I have one fee, for instance, and I want V for next day, it was so easy for me to put out a press release and say, You know what, I'm going to excuse all next day transfer fuse. But I'm going to charge you for instant, come on, you know, the user wants instant. So this might be a very small thing. But what I'm trying to tell you is that we do look at small little experiences of our users, and try to make it better. And that is conscious capitalism. So it also goes back to how I started. This is the richest country in the world. And we have 45% of US workers in the frontline of our industries that you and I encounter every day in grocery stores, package handlers, all that you got to take care of that they are your essential workers. So those are some of the things they've done. And that's how we think.

Kyle Roed: 16:58

Absolutely. And I just I think it's, it's so powerful to, to have that mindset shift from, you know, capitalism, whether, you know, if you're in a for profit, you know, enterprise, it's just all about money. And, you know, my argument is, no, it's, you know, doing good is good business. And if you look at all of the, you know, kind of the social movements, and and what many of our workers are asking about or asking us to do is, you know, they want to make sure that we have a conscience. You know, I haven't heard this term, but you know, I can only imagine, you know, an employee who's, who wants to work in a company that labels itself, as you know, we're unconscious capitalists, you know, we're just here to make money. And, you know, I just My argument is, it doesn't work, maybe you can make more money in the short term. But you know, true, sustainable, resilient businesses, you no need to think seriously about Conscious Capitalism. So I appreciate that perspective. I think it's, it's really important. As you were, as you were talking about the overdraft fee, you know, it, it reminded me of an experience I had when I was when I was very young. So if you'll, you'll humor me, I'll share my I'll share my personal story. And so the first thing I'll say is, you know, I didn't grew up in poverty, but I certainly didn't grow up with affluence that my parents were teachers, and I grew up in rural Iowa. And I remember when I, when I graduated, and I was kind of finding my way. I had a, I had an overdraft fees situation, you know, this was back when you're in your early 20s. And you think, Oh, I can afford that rent. And it's like, like, 90% of your take home pay, right? Well, that does that math doesn't really work, right. So I got I got into, I got into a challenge with with credit cards, and with some bank overdraft fees. And it was like, going down a drain. It was like a downward spiral. And it's just like, every time you tried to get out of it, another fee would pop up. And another fee would pop up. And you were in, you know, in it was my own fault, because I made a decision. But then when I wanted to get out of it, I couldn't. And I was very lucky that I had that my my, quite frankly, my parents bailed me out. And I didn't realize it until after they had done it. But it was like they just did it because they saw what I was fighting through. And at that moment, I made a decision that I was never going to get in that situation again. But I've carried that to this day. And as I talk to employees who are either just starting their career, or maybe are struggling with money and have kind of continuously struggled with money, you You know, it's a spiral. And it's really, really hard to break that spiral without some level of outside intervention. And so I think, you know, just just another story there. And, you know, I take this very personally, that, you know, if your employees are struggling, if there's any way that you can help them, even if it's just a small gesture, sometimes that can mean all the difference. So so thank you for sharing your your story there. And hopefully, that gives some listeners some pause. I wanted to ask a question here, because you kind of mentioned this in the beginning. And I think I think it's in the same vein of, of what we're talking about here. And that is, you know, why is it so expensive to be poor?

Sabina Bhatia: 20:57

Kyle, you're frozen? Kyle, can you hear me?

Kyle Roed: 21:02

I can hear you just fine. Kyle. I can hear you, Sabina. Can you hear me?

Sabina Bhatia: 21:12

I can hear you now. Okay, perfect. The screen froze. Okay. And

Kyle Roed: 21:17

we'll keep going. And we'll see what happens. But you're coming through great for me.

Sabina Bhatia: 21:22

Okay, excellent. It is very expensive to be poor. And let's talk about it. Okay, about 200 billion every year goes into predatory fields. Now, what makes up this predatory fee is overdrafts, right. But all graphs come. When you are a penny short, or a second late on a bill. That's when it comes to your checking account. That's when you get hit. Now, you pay your overdraft fees, but then you pay late fees, disconnect fees, reconnect fears, all that happens. So that's just part of it. Along comes one other alternative that solves your liquidity issues. And that is your payday loan fees. You talked about your overdraft experience, you had to go to your family, you still remember that. So it was obviously a dignity issue for you. You still remember it. You are not rooting for your salvation there that yes, I got saved by my parents. And I can do that again. No, you're still thinking about it. And you're you're thinking about the spiral. Think about the payday loan space. You know, there are payday loan companies that are only online. And there is no cap at all on the interest rate, no cap. So you could be paying 500 600 700% APR. And then in some states, they have caps. So that is also part of the predatory loans. Here's one more, and then I'll talk about the cause of all this. Here's one more, you know, you go to a car dealership, and they have these, you know, buy here and pay here. So they have their own way of giving you a loan to buy a car, and you end up paying, you know, 20 25% 30% on that loan for the car. So the car that could have cost you 200 bucks a month is going to cost you 1100 bucks a month. And then they put like a tracker on your car. They want to make sure it's just it's such a humiliating experience. And this is all for someone who has a job and has earned but unpaid wages. So it is that liquidity crunch that's putting them there. Right. So if you look at it, there is that 100 90 billion. But for those who forget the details of the 100 and 90 billion, let's talk about a very simple experience. Kyle, you and I will walk into a Costco or a beaches or a Sam's Club. And we go and buy, you know, bulk loads of goods that we need for the home. And the per unit cost of that is a lot less which is why we go there. Right we go and buy paper napkins and that same 12 Pack paper napkin outside is going to cost you three times four times that amount. But you and I pay$75 $80 for the annual membership, and then everything per unit is a lot cheaper for us. Now you tell me if you make$15 an hour, are you gonna go and buy five gallons of milk from Costco, or one gallon of milk, which is probably a lot more expensive, but you just have to pay for one gallon from a 711, or a little strip mall, it's a lot cheaper for you to get it because the per unit is a lot higher. But it's cheaper for you to spend five bucks on a half gallon of milk, versus 10 bucks on 10 gallons of milk. So right now per unit, just because I could not afford the Costco membership, I could not afford to buy in bulk. I just now pay three four times per unit. That means it is expensive for me to be poor. That's what I am doing. Right. So that is one experience. People don't think about it. But that's what happens. Here's another I don't know if you ever watched the show. Roseanne, when I first came to the US in the 1990s. I used to love that show because I thought it was funny. It took me 1015 years to realize what I was learning in that show. When you talk about this 45% of Americans in the frontline of the industry, it was Roseanne and Dan, who were dodging bills, every 15, then every first, they would send a check into the utility governor to keep the utilities on for the next three days. So they could take that money and spend it on groceries. And then after three days, the utilities got shut off, but they got three extra days on your toilets. So you know things like this. But when you're workers, and you're an HR executive, when your age, when your workers are going through this experience, it is not fun for them to be at work. They are standing outside a parking lot, trying to get 20 bucks to get through the next couple of days from their parents, and they're gonna remember it 20 years down the road. I'm sorry, I might have just aged you 20 years, but but they're gonna remember that 20 years down the road. You don't want to do that to them.

Kyle Roed: 27:21

Absolutely, yeah, it was almost exactly 20 years ago. So yeah. I remember every, every embarrassing, you know, moment. And I think probably the most embarrassing thing there was feeling like I lost my independence, you know, as a young as a young adult, you think you can do this without help. And and that was was powerful. No, it's funny. So my wife loves Roseanne and she still watches the reruns, but Roseanne, you know, little fun fact, here. It was set in, you know, in, in rural Illinois, which is basically black, like an hour or two from where I grew up in Iowa. So I, you know, I, I feel that but I know, yeah, I know that, that, you know, that family. And and I'm current, you know, I'm currently in the manufacturing industry. I've met a lot of people in that exact situation. And, you know, a great example, as you were telling that story about, you know, utilities, it got me thinking about something as simple as affording gasoline. Right. And right now, you know, this is, we're recording this, you know, a few weeks before it's going to come out. But right now, gas is around, you know, it's at the top of its range. And it's you know, around$4 Plus, just to fill up your gas tank. You know, I've had conversations with people who have told me Listen, I really want to come to work every single day, but I can't afford to put enough gas in my tank to get to work. I need help just, you know, with a carpool, you know, something like that. One of the things that we did at my last company is we contracted with the local taxi service. And we said, hey, if you you know, if you need a ride, we will help you, you know, here's, here's how you can get that help. And we, you know, we extended that offer, we didn't have many people take us up on it, I think because of kind of the pride issue. And, you know, they, they found alternative ways to get there. But, but also by doing that, like, it's goes back to like the conscious capitalism discussion earlier. It was also good for business because it got them there. Right. And that ultimately, that's what we wanted as an organization. So it was just, you know, it was a different way to think about helping employees overcome kind of that that challenge, right, and just thinking differently.

Sabina Bhatia: 29:48

Let me tell you, I'm so glad you mentioned gas and I did not so now, what I'm about to say does not sound prepared. So which is great for your podcast. So I'm in Silicon Valley, gas over here is $6 plus. Okay, but let's talk about Conscious Capitalism. Let's talk about financial wellness. Let's talk about what technology can do for you. Let's talk about, it can become expensive to be poor, but how we are helping today on our platform, users can do two things, at least, to save them on gas, they can get a 10% discount, per gallon on gas on our app, at no extra cost, there's no fee attached or anything, they go to a Murphy gas station, and they get 10 cents off a gallon of gas, all they need to do is swipe the swipe card. That is huge. Okay, here's another thing. You can have $1,000 in cash sitting in your pocket, you cannot take an Uber ride, if you don't have money in a cart, because that's what you'd like to an Uber app. You don't need to do that anymore. On our app, we have to have a partnership with Uber, where an employee can use their earned but unpaid wages that show accrued in our app and grab an Uber ride. Now, that is liquidity that we just saw their transportation issue, which is one of the top three reasons why they use our app because they need to get to work. If I can afford to get to work, how am I going to earn my daily living. The third thing is, and this is really from the employer side, we actually have a lot of businesses who sent Uber rides to their workers and their businesses saying that I'll spend 10 bucks on that Uber ride, no problem, because I cannot fill that shift if this worker does not show up. Because the business has to deal with the worker talking to Kyle and Sabina when they check out a grocery store, or they go to the pharmacy, or the wait for a package to be delivered. You know all those things, right? So businesses can send Uber rides to their workers on our app at zero cost, all they have to do is paying for the Uber ride. So these things, right, the things that are happening in their life, it is about liquidity, but it's also about all those other things that are triggered when you cannot afford to live. And that's what our platform has become it's become the livelihood platform. We don't talk enough about that word, because, you know, I still need some time to convince HR executives as to how we're thinking, but it has become the livelihood platform. It's about all little pieces that we're trying to fulfill for the worker.

Kyle Roed: 33:01

That's really interesting. You know, it's actually just had this conversation a few weeks ago with, with an organization that's trying to work on a transportation issue within our community. And it has to do with, you know, things like, well, you know, your shift starts at six, but the bus route doesn't start running until six. So that means everybody that takes the buses at least 45 minutes late, you know, and, you know, so we're trying to petition but yeah, I mean, there's a solution right there in a piece of technology. That's sounds like it's already built. And I'm like you I'm not a technologist, but I love technology. And so I just love like, you know, there's got to be a way to do this. And somebody that somebody that is a technologist can, can help us figure it out. That's really powerful. And, and appreciate you sharing that. If you want, I can go back, we can cut it out. So that you told me that before I asked the question, if you want me to do that, Serena? No. Okay. Are you kidding?

Sabina Bhatia: 33:59

That's real.

Kyle Roed: 34:03

No, I really appreciate that. And I do think, you know, we've we've touched on some things that are really potentially sensitive, as well. And I think that's one of the things I mean, and I can't tell you how many how many conversations we've had on on this podcast with, with with a number of different people, you know, if there's one common thread, through almost every single conversation that I've had since starting this podcast, it's been helping your employees be successful. You know, whether that's through making sure they have a great experience, making sure that you're compensating them fairly, you know, making sure that they have the right benefits package, making sure that you're you're educating your leaders to help them out. But I think at its base level, a lot of times, it's this, it's this type of stuff that really makes the most difference. It's really how do you how do you help with basic needs? For your employees, and ultimately, I think my goal, I think any HR professionals goal is that, you know, we also want people to grow and develop and get to a point where they, they don't have to work the lower wage jobs, and that they have the opportunity to develop those skills and grow and have gainful employment, you know, for years to come with your organization. But if they're constantly fighting the stresses, they're never going to be able to do that. Right, you some, somehow there needs to be a catalyst to help them get out of that spiral.

Sabina Bhatia: 35:34

Grid. I mean, HR gets a bad rap, right? That says to me, you know, can you stop by for a second, I'm like, Oh, my God, what? Right? It's just all this like it. But that's the reputation that people have given, I can tell you that we work with tons of HR executives, and they are telling us, we care, and they show us that they care. They just need a solution. Right? So the way we look at human resources is that you are the only source to make their life better, be empowered, you have the power to do it. Don't be their parents, they have their parents at home, right? One set of parents is awesome, right? But at work, do all those other things that makes their life better when they leave work. Because only then can they come to work excited and happy and do all the things for an upward movement. Otherwise, like you said, it's just a spiral that just never ends. We have HR executives that come and tell us that, oh my god, I saw this person sleeping in a car in the garage. And when I looked carefully, he was actually one of my employees. I was barest. And I said, you know, what you should be embarrassed, should be find a solution to solve this person's problem. If you can help one person, it is huge, right? And we tell HR executives that I'm going to help you retain your employees. Today with pay active, you can tell your prospects and your employees that come work with us. And you can get paid any day you want any day, not once, not twice, not a percentage any day you want, you can access your pay. And they you know, they love it, because they're also competing with the Gen Z with the Freelancers, all that, but they want to be able to say that I might have a payroll process, but that is my downside. I'm going to help you anyways, so I can sleep better. And that's really what being a B Corp is about. It's what conscious capitalism is about. Let's do the right thing. Everything else will follow.

Kyle Roed: 38:00

Absolutely. Love it. We're gonna we're gonna end it right there. Because I think that's a wonderful note to end on. And we're gonna shift gears, and we're gonna go into the rebel HR flash round. So are you ready?

Sabina Bhatia: 38:15

Let's do it.

Kyle Roed: 38:16

All right, here we go. Question number one. Where does HR need to rebell

Sabina Bhatia: 38:21

HR needs to step up. Get rid of paternalism. Stand up for your own people. Your people have made a commitment to come in and deliver on what you have promised your clients. Now it's your opportunity, step up for them and take care of them. Because that's the only way a business will survive. You need to start with your people first.

Kyle Roed: 38:49

I love it. Question number two, who should we be listening to?

Sabina Bhatia: 38:54

I listened to this podcast almost every day. How I built it. I love that podcast. It's an NPR podcast. And it talks about how small businesses started and they became big and the mistakes that were made and how innovative they were. And how you doing today. So I learned something from every podcast. I've heard stories about whole foods from there for about Wayfair from there from small to large businesses. So I love how I built it on NPR.

Kyle Roed: 39:29

That is I think that's the second and the last few weeks that we've had that as an answer. So you're in. You're in good company, Sabina clearly I need to check that one out.

Sabina Bhatia: 39:39

It's fantastic.

Kyle Roed: 39:42

All right. Last question. How can our listeners connect with you and learn more about pay active?

Sabina Bhatia: 39:47

You can go straight to our website. It is PE active. There's no E in it. Pay AC T i v.com Reach out to us and we would love to talk about ourselves and How we can help you?

Kyle Roed: 40:02

Absolutely. And we will have all that information in the show notes. So you can just open up your podcast player, click right in, learn a little bit more. Sabina, I just want to say thank you again, you know, we we've covered some really important territory today and I think just appreciate you kind of sharing the truth of, of some of our employees experience and some of the ways that we can help help employees have gainful employment. So, with that, thank you again so much for joining us and rebel on HR rebels. All right, that does it for the rebel HR podcast. Big thank you to our guests. Follow us on Facebook at rebel HR podcast, Twitter, at rebel HR guy, or see our website at rebel human resources.com. The views and opinions expressed by rebel HR podcast are those the authors and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of any of the organizations that we represent. No animals were harmed during the filming of this podcast. Maybe