Ever wondered how your body can guide you to become a more effective leader? If yes, then prepare to embark on an intriguing exploration of leadership through a somatic lens with our insightful guest, Pavini Moray, PhD. Paveni, a proponent of somatic leadership, takes us on her personal journey, unraveling the wisdom hidden within our bodies. Together, we delve into how body signals can be an untapped resource in making decisions, leading empathetically, and maintaining a genuine presence.
We tread deeper waters as Pavini and I navigate the complex notion of power - its fluidity, its implications, and its inextricable connection to leadership. As we untangle the link between somatic awareness and neuroscience, we uncover how our physical reality can enhance our understanding and management of power. From discussing power dynamics in the workplace to the essential skill of effective listening, we underline the significance of HR professionals wielding their influence justly and for the collective good.
Finally, we share our personal strategies for handling a flood of information at work, spotlighting authenticity and vulnerability as vital elements to forge deeper human connections. We circle back to Pavini's unique perspective on leadership, power dynamics, and the importance of empathy and communication. This episode winds down with Pavini sharing pivotal elements of her book, "How to Hold Power: A Somatic Approach to Becoming a Leader." Tune in, be inspired, and don't forget to check out our show notes for more information on her work.
Rebel HR is a podcast for HR professionals and leaders of people who are ready to make some disruption in the world of work. Please connect to continue the conversation!
This is the Rebel HR Podcast, the podcast about all things innovation in the people's space. I'm Kyle Rode. Let's start the show. Welcome back Rebel HR community, really excited for the conversation today With us. We have Paveni Morey, phd. They are the author of the new book available now how to Hold Power a somatic approach to becoming a leader people love and respect. Welcome to the podcast, hi.
Speaker 2:
Kyle, thanks for having me.
Speaker 1:
Thank you so much. It's wonderful to meet you. We've been talking about getting this on the schedule for a couple of months now, so I'm excited that we finally got an opportunity to connect. Me too, all right. So you know, I think I'm really fascinated to dig into this topic a little bit, because it's something that's a little bit new in the world of human resources and in the world of corporate, and that is talking about a somatic approach to leadership, and I'm curious what motivated you to really dig into this as a topic to focus your energy on around a book.
Speaker 2:
Yeah, so my background is in somatics. I have been a somatic coach for many years and then I decided I wanted to start a company and had never started a company before, had never led people before, and so I started this company and all of a sudden realized that I had all this power that was really impacting people's lives, and I didn't know how to handle it. I didn't know how to lead. Well, I mean, I was leading how I would want to be led right and was kind of bossing from that angle, and it wasn't working for my employees I mean, it was working for some of them, but not for all of them and I felt at a loss of how to lead in a way that is ethical and in alignment with who I am, but also in a way that work for the people who are on my team. So there was this process of learning to embody leadership and somatics.
Speaker 2:
For those of you who aren't familiar with it, what it really means, it comes from the word soma, which is a root word meaning of the body, right, and so it means that the wisdom that is inherently stored in our tissues, in our bones, in our fascia, in our embodied way of living, in ourselves has a wisdom to it, and that wisdom is a free resource that we always have available to us. And so, as I was in this process of becoming a leader, I was leaning heavily on that of my own embodiment, my own embodied wisdom, and learning to make sure that my decisions were aligned, that they felt aligned, that I could feel myself in my decision making. And so, especially for having to make hard decisions or where there was conflicting information, really having to lean into my own intuition and that body knowledge and so that's where the topic of the book came from was like oh, this is something that's really applicable and practical for leaders, of how can you live more in your own skin and make decisions that feel really aligned. So that's kind of the first part of the book, and the second part is from my work in working with relationships and how can we have relational skills in the workplace that are consensual, that are ethical, that honor everybody's humanity. So that's kind of where this impetus came from.
Speaker 2:
Yeah, thanks.
Speaker 1:
Yeah, absolutely, and I think this is one of those fields or areas that we're just now starting to talk about in the context of workplace and corporations and human resources, and I think we throw around a lot of words like intuition or empathy, sympathy, these sorts of things, but a lot of this ties into this practice of somatics. So I'm fascinated to dig into this a little bit more. So for those of us that are maybe new to this type of thinking but have kind of like, kind of understand the feeling of like going with your gut, or feeling like you know there's some sort of bodily response to whatever's happening in your field, if you will, how can we start to shift our thinking, to be a little bit more aware of what our body is telling us and to tap into some of that wisdom that you mentioned?
Speaker 2:
Yeah, I love this question. So it's really a lifelong practice, right. I was thinking this morning of how I just spent some time with some really little kids and how embodied they were. That they were, you know, I'm talking like three, four years old, right. And so they are just really following the impulses in their body. They're paying attention to when they feel hungry, when they feel sad, when they need to move, when they want to be snuggled, right. There's all of this attention that is happening inside of them, where they're acknowledging their own experience, and none of this is happening on a conscious level, right.
Speaker 2:
But you and me, we went to school and we got socialized and we learned to ignore a lot of that information, and part of that I'm not saying that that's bad, right, but part of it is helpful in helping us get along with others and we can't just do what we want and throw temper tantrums when we're mad, and you know we have to be able to play well with others, but there's a loss of being able to have that direct access to that information. So your answer to your question is really this practice of attention, of starting to bring our attention back to our body, to noticing what's happening in our body at any given moment. And so when I say practice, it's not something like you're thinking okay, well, I'm going to get up and do my embodiment practice from 8 to 830, right, I'm starting to learn to bring my attention back to my body at any moment, right? So how this happened for me is I started to notice that, when I would be in meetings with my team, things would be happening in my body, right. And if I could notice them, if I could notice that I was, for example, contracting my pectoral muscles, right, or if I was clenching my jaw or if my hands were clenched, that that was a piece of information that I could interrogate, that I could say, okay, hey, what's going on here that's making me have this contraction response? What is what's happening in this meeting? That doesn't feel right.
Speaker 2:
And so that that practice of bringing the attention back to the body is both. It can be more formal, right, like okay, now I will do a body scan, for example. Then it can also be more informal of oh, I noticed I'm walking into this meeting and I'm feeling really tight. I notice I'm not breathing. Hmm, I wonder why. Right, and just in asking ourselves. And the other piece of this is that I want to speak to is that the information your body gives. It's clear, but it's not in language, so it's our job to translate what's happening. So if we're feeling that muscle contraction, or if we're feeling that tightness, or if we're feeling that shallow breath, we have to be in there asking ourselves okay, why, why is this happening and what do I need right now? What does my body need right now to feel more relaxed? Does that make sense?
Speaker 1:
Yeah, for me it's the like, the shoulders like going towards the ears.
Speaker 1:
Yeah, and it's like I have to remind oh yeah, put those down. But a lot of times it's some level of like tension or like it's it's, you know, a lot of times it's almost like you're getting ready to go into the ring, right, and I think I think a lot of HR professionals probably get that especially like here comes that tough conversation, here comes that frustrated employee, here comes that manager that just doesn't like what we're doing. You know, and we have been trained to shut that off right, like flip the switch, put on the, put on the HR mask and just kind of plow through it. So, with that in mind, you know, the model of leadership that we've been really kind of educated in is really the opposite of what we're talking about here. So, as we think about the what we define as leadership and the model of leadership and how to effectively lead, what kind of change do we need to start to think about as we, as it relates to the paradigm of how we define good leadership?
Speaker 2:
Yeah, the masking that you're talking about, right, it's an armoring. Right, it's a decision to not reveal any vulnerability. Right, to hold a professionalism, and it has benefit, right. So I'm not saying to never do that, that's a skill that people have learned and there are benefits to that skill. There's also costs to it, right. So what does it cost when you shut out your intuition? What does it cost when you shut down your feeling self? Right, and I would say that the cost is your own humanity.
Speaker 2:
And when you have shut down your own humanity, when you can't connect with your own feelings and needs, right, it translates and ripples out into a lack of empathy, right, because you're not being empathetic with yourself, right.
Speaker 2:
And so how can you be empathetic with someone else, how can you hold what they need and what they're feeling?
Speaker 2:
Because you're not holding it for yourself, right? So I think that this reframe here is how to embrace our own humanity first. How do we put our own oxygen masks on first, so that we can have empathy, we can be connected with folks who are coming with needs that are challenging for us, right? So when you have that difficult conversation, it's because somebody's coming with feelings and needs that you don't feel like you have the bandwidth or the skill or the resource or even the emotional space to meet, right, it just feels like an inconvenience, or it feels annoying, or it feels like pressure, or you feel a lack of power, right. And so this reframe on how do I welcome my own humanity, how do I say, actually, that shoulder raise, when your shoulder is raising up to yours, like what do I need in this moment, right? What do I need to feel safe? What do I need to feel grounded? And then that enables you to be more available, to be in those human-to-human relationships.
Speaker 1:
Yeah, I don't know that. Many of us are very good at that. I mean, I've had this conversation multiple times in my personal life where it's you know, you can't help everybody, don't be a people-pleaser, you know these sorts of things and it's the, you know the. But I think the point that was really powerful and that really resonated with me is you know, you have to have empathy for yourself if you're going to have empathy for others. And people know, right, Like they know, if you're flip a switch and now you're robotic, right, or you're inauthentic, or you know what I call like HR mode, right.
Speaker 1:
And I feel like I can pinpoint a number of times where it's ended poorly because of that, like the interaction has ended poorly, or there's been a really rough you know rough day because there's all this like negativity built up or all this like this tension built up, and it's just never really been addressed or released. So what is the ripple effect if we, if we just don't listen to our bodies or don't have this somatic awareness, what does that lead to, if we don't think differently about this?
Speaker 2:
Yeah, I mean, I think there's a help cost, for sure, that when we aren't paying attention to what our bodies are saying, when we're not tracking our needs and we are, as you said, pushing it down or going pushing through right, that there is a cumulative cost of stress on your system because you have been away from yourself, and so that stress I mean you know what that does, right, it has huge health impacts, it has relational impacts, it has relation or it just has impact on everything. And so I think that the that's the cost and the benefit, of course, is of really coming home to yourself and of being able to be honest with yourself about what you are feeling and what you're needing and having permission to have that be okay. Like it's like some self-acceptance that what you're feeling, what you're experiencing as a person, it's okay for you to be feeling healthy.
Speaker 1:
Yeah, absolutely, it's okay to be human right.
Speaker 2:
It's okay to be human, yeah.
Speaker 1:
It's literally in our job title. We forget about that, like it's 50% of the job title, right, human resource, like that's the first word. So I want to shift gears. I want to dig into the subject, or the definition of power, and obviously it's right in the title of the book how to Hold Power, and I think what struck me about the title is the word power can have really positive connotation and really negative connotation, and so, but it is what we're talking about as it relates to leadership. So how do you think about the definition of holding power?
Speaker 2:
I think about it in terms of impact, right, and I think that that's kind of the classical definition of the ability to influence others, and I prefer the word impact and impact being neutral, both positive, negative or nothing, right, neutral.
Speaker 2:
But it's really the conversation that we're having all the time and I think it's something that most of us are deeply attuned to are the nuances of power.
Speaker 2:
We're especially attuned to it when we are on the receiving end of someone else's power, right, we can really feel the impact that someone in power their decisions, their choices has on us. It's harder for us to feel the impact that we have on others, and I think part of this I would say epidemic of disembodiment is that when we're not feeling ourselves, we also can't feel our power. We can't feel the impact we're having on others, and although they are deeply aware of it, right. But I would say that most of us, we really know intuitively, very, very clearly how power moves. Even if we can't name it, we feel it. We know when somebody has just done a power move on us that doesn't feel good, or we know when someone has used power in a way to lift someone else up. We feel it, even if we can't put words to it, even if we wouldn't say, oh, that's a, that's an exchange of power right there, it's in us that we feel it and we recognize it.
Speaker 1:
That's a really interesting way to think about it. I want to go back to maybe. You made a comment like it's a little woo, like a little woo-woo right, Like energy, and I have a feeling that some of our listeners are aware this is the first time that they're listening, hearing about somatic awareness and kind of listening to your body. They might be feeling that way, just about that. So walk us through kind of the actual kind of science behind this, where there is. This isn't just like a totally woo-woo principle.
Speaker 2:
No, no, it actually really weaves with neuroscience, right, that the like. Proprioception is the ability to know where your body is in space. Right, to feel where your body is in space even without looking. And so it's why, when you get pulled over, or if you got pulled over and an officer thought you might have been drinking, they would do a proprioceptive test. Right, can you walk the line? Can you touch your nose with your finger? Right, because alcohol interrupts our ability to be proprioceptive.
Speaker 2:
So introception is the ability to feel the information that is coming from your nerves and the interior of your body. Right, so it's the ability to feel what is happening inside yourself. So where are those contractions? Are you hungry? Do you have to pee? Are you thirsty? Are you warm? Is can you feel movement happening inside of you? Right, and that could be like physical movement, like with your intestines, or it could be your heart pounding, right? So introception, which is also more colloquially described as the felt sense, is our ability to put our attention on what's happening inside of our bodies. So that's the science behind this. Yeah, Absolutely.
Speaker 1:
Yeah, I mean that makes you know it's that's a really interesting corollary like a DUI test, right, like walking a straight line which hopefully most of our listeners haven't had the joy of experiencing. But you know, I suppose it might happen. We have empathy for them. If they have, we do, we have empathy. But you know, like I'm reflecting on, yeah, I mean we get that feeling too right, like like some level of unsteadyness after, after certain, you know, interactions or or like or the, or a headache at the end of the day.
Speaker 1:
Right, you know it's some stuff like that, like that. You know that makes a lot of sense, but but we're just supposed to, you know, take, take an ibuprofen and go, you know, go about your day. Or you know, you know, maybe shake it off and just keep moving, and and that what I'm hearing is that might not be the most effective way to manage. So, so, as we think about going back to, to, to power and, and you know, kind of power being the currency, and and and and being something that we need to be aware of, why, why is it important to, to figure out and be a little bit more conscious about how you are presenting and how you are kind of holding that power for others around you?
Speaker 2:
I presume that you and your listeners and I certainly share this long for inequitable, just worlds. Right, we want a world that where people are in integrity, are aware of their impact, are considerate, are empathetic, like we long for to be safe, really, I mean at its basis, and so the um, our capacity for all of those things is deeply rooted in our bodies, and so, in order to create that kind of just world, we really have to be able to feel how we're acting with our power when we do things that are when we use our power inappropriately, when we use our power over. So there's lots of different ways to hold power. One of them is to hold power with someone. One of them is a collaborative approach to holding power. One is power over, so when we are dominating, we're using power over. One is power under, and this is when we are being secretive or undermining or cutting, gossiping, those kinds of things. And so where I see the sweet spot for us to be is in this just world that we want to be long for.
Speaker 2:
Right is to be aware of our own power. Right to really be deeply aware of how much power we have access to, how much agency we have, how much impact we can create and to see that in others too, and to be in a collaborative relationship of power sharing with others, so that we're not having to use our power to get our way but we can use our conversational skills, we can use our skills of communication to get what we need right, so that other people don't become a resource to be utilized or to be used and then thrown away, but rather a resource of when we're sharing power together. Right, and you've probably had relationships I mean, many of us are in primary romantic relationships and hopefully, when you're in that kind of relationship and you are sharing power, like the force that you have, the impact that you can create is greater than the sum of its parts, right? So I think that that awareness, developing that awareness, both the body awareness and also how we're using our power it just really helps us create the world that we want to live in.
Speaker 1:
Absolutely. I like that, yeah, and I think that in the context of our roles as HR professionals or leaders of people, or whatever your role is as you're listening to this podcast, many of us are in those power over paradigms. We have some level of authority that's given to us just by nature of the job that we do, right, but that doesn't necessarily mean that that's how we have to show up and present, right, and while we might have this hierarchical power, that doesn't mean that we are making that power dynamic, positive, right. You mentioned earlier that power can be kind of neutral, right, but it's up to us to make sure that it doesn't go negative, right, certainly for people around us, and that reverberates back into us as well, right?
Speaker 2:
Yeah, I think that there's especially for folks who are imbued with organizational power or power that's bestowed by a job.
Speaker 2:
It's really on us to make sure that those who are managing or that we're supervising that our power is a benefit to them, right, so that we are looking out for them, we are empowering them as much as we can, we are sharing power. And also, I mean it's just kind of the power, for example, of stepping into mentorship, right, where you're claiming like you're not flattening power, you're not saying, oh, we're the same, like you're like no, I have spent years developing my position in my career, right, that gives me situational power. Right, it gives me power based just on my history and in order to be collaborative with that, like I can be in mentorship with you, I can lift you up, I can support you, and it's acknowledging that there is actually a power differential. So I'm not suggesting that we erase power and just everybody's on the same level, like that's not true, right, but it's like how do we use it in ways that get us the end result that we want?
Speaker 1:
Yeah, yeah, absolutely, it's the. You know it's a little bit of common sense there, right Like you know that not everybody's going to be on the exact same playing field, but you know the word that you know you used earlier. You know equity, right Like, at least we can be equitable, we can show up consistently, we can be empathetic and listen and you know, ultimately that will help make this a better world and a better workplace for our teams right, yeah. Do you want?
Speaker 2:
to talk about listening. Yeah, I think I just think it could be helpful for folks. Yeah, it would be cool if you would be willing to tell me where do you see your listeners maybe having challenges with the skill set.
Speaker 1:
I think one of the biggest challenges that we have with listening is the fact that we get so much, so much information and a lot of times, a lot of times, the information that comes to us is filtered so it's not necessarily direct, and so for us, to a lot of times we really understand exact what's going on, we have to dig really deep or we have to go get other information. And the other challenge with listening for us is a lot of times we're the eyes and the ears of our organization and so you know, it's our job to really be that kind of that connectivity between our employees and leaders and kind of help, you know, kind of help make sure that we've got really good 360 communication, and that sounds really, you know, really good and like, but that's really really freaking hard. So I think that's, you know, kind of organizationally. That's one of the bigger challenges that we have with listening in general.
Speaker 2:
Just the amount of. So what I'm hearing is the amount of information that you're receiving that you have to filter through that. The information is already filtered. So you have to have a process of discernment to figure out, like, what is actually happening here, right. And then that you're actually the glue, you're the bridge between employees and leadership, right, and so both are pulling on your attention, both have demands on you, both want you to be on their side. So there's this sense of loyalty that you have to explore.
Speaker 1:
Yeah, you got it Okay. You said it better than I did.
Speaker 2:
I was just listening.
Speaker 1:
There you go.
Speaker 2:
Yeah, and so I guess I would ask, and then I have some thoughts on this but, like, what are your practices when it feels like too much?
Speaker 1:
I think I can't speak for everybody else out there, but you know, I think from my standpoint my practice is just take every last thing in that I can, to the point that it's almost overwhelming for me, and then try to distill that down into something that's consumable, helpful. You know, take these really big, like it's almost like the big data problem when you've got this massive amount and you're trying to funnel it and so. So how do I handle it? I just, you know, try to stay as open as possible, to the point that you try to kind of figure out what's actually going on.
Speaker 2:
Yeah, I mean it just sounds like massive input is coming towards you and your. Your particular strategy is to absorb and to then kind of distill from that yeah, yes. Okay.
Speaker 1:
I can say too and this is where, like, there's been a lot of work here, but it's around you know data analytics and HR analytics and you know how do you know what, what is the data saying? So you know, some of that listening is is actually kind of metrically driven right. So it's like, okay, what, what, what is our team telling us? What is the data telling us? And the truth is usually somewhere somewhere in the middle there, right?
Speaker 2:
And does your gut play a role in that?
Speaker 1:
Mine does. Yeah, that's the only way I could like. That's the only way that I can make decisions or share information. It's it's and I would say it's it's part intuition. It's part like two decades in the in the field, where it's like I've seen similar situations. This is what happened in the past. That's likely what's happening now, so it's kind of it's also kind of this like learned intuition as well.
Speaker 1:
Right, yeah, yeah, I mean, I just, I mean, by the way, you know what I mean Like, like it's still an educated guess in many cases.
Speaker 2:
Yeah, I love it. I mean, I think it's the. It's kind of like the embodiment of what we're talking about, right? It's like all of the information coming and that you become the filter, you become the processor and then ultimately, the what comes from? That is something that you've understood in your body, right, that you are are taking in from different factions, you're absorbing this information, but then the output of that is processed through your body. Yeah, so it's kind of exactly what I'm writing about.
Speaker 1:
Yeah.
Speaker 2:
Thanks for the great, the great the great news. We know they'd ask you questions about that. This is good.
Speaker 1:
No, this is good. Yeah, everybody. That's the Rebel HR podcast. The host is is Pavanima Ray PhD. Thank you very much. It's not much good, you know it's. Our listeners can probably agree with this. Like there are so many times where where we go into a situation and it's just like something feels off right, or like we're in a conversation and it's like we just can't put our finger on it but something like there's some some, some trigger in the back of our mind is saying something's a little bit off Right. And then there are other conversations where we're interacting with somebody, we're talking to somebody, and it's like this is so right, right, like this is just, this is universally correct. And you know, and I think, and and you can feel that in your body if you, if you really listen. But you know, I think we could all do a little bit better being being a little bit more aware of that, right, yeah.
Speaker 2:
One of the I think one of the things there is that that I've noticed is that the more I listen and name what I'm noticing, greater trust I have in my experience. Right, and the greater trust I have in the experience, the more it happens Like there's this really positive feedback loop that happens when we start listening and so like, for example, that you gave of, like, oh, something doesn't feel right. I'm sitting here, I'm listening, tell this, something feels off. I don't know what it is, but something feels off. You know what happens if you name that.
Speaker 2:
What happens if you say, well, I notice that in my gut, I'm just feeling the sense of something feeling off and I can't tell you what it is and I know that something doesn't feel right here. Right, and you start to name what you're noticing and it doesn't have to be because it's vulnerable, right, it's vulnerable to say, oh, wow, I noticed that my shoulders are really tight as I'm listening to this conversation. It can be a really vulnerable thing, especially in the face of that professionalism we talked about, to start using your body as a source of reference and wisdom. Right, and naming it, and even if you don't do it out loud, the more you do it to yourself. It still reinforces it, it still gives you that feedback loop so that you are building that body trust and able to rely on that as a resource more and more. Yeah.
Speaker 1:
Yeah, absolutely yeah, and I think we touched on a kind of a common thread that we've had here over the last few discussions, the last few weeks is that vulnerability piece, that authenticity piece. Sometimes it's a little bit challenging, but that's really where that human connection comes into place, right, and that's like being aware, being open, being vulnerable Really. That's the human experience, right, and we should be able to have that in our workplace as well as at home. With that being said, we're going to shift gears. We're going to go into the Rebel HR Flash Fround. Are you ready? Sure, all right, let's go to number one. Where does HR need to rebel?
Speaker 2:
Well, in what you just said, that we can have more of that human experience at work, not just at home. What I would say is you already are having that human experience at work. It's a myth that we can compartmentalize work at home. It's just not possible, because we are the same person whether we're at work or we're at home. Now can we perform, can we mask, can we armor? Absolutely, we can do that. We've talked about the cost and benefits of doing that.
Speaker 2:
There's something really beautiful to me when I see leaders start to break down that compartmentalization, when they start to say I don't like how this feels, I don't want to do this, I want us to go in this way because it feels better to me. I notice in our relationship there's some unaddressed tensions and I'd like to talk about them with you. When we start to name these things and we start to claim the space of our humanity at work, it's super powerful. I think that that kind of leadership is where I would like to see HR heading is into demanding the full acknowledgement of our humanity wherever we are.
Speaker 1:
Absolutely Well said. Question number two who should we be listening to?
Speaker 2:
I think we should be listening to the people who have been historically most impacted by messed up power dynamics. This means really seeking out leaders of color. It means seeking out leaders who are in any way having a marginalized identity or experience, leaders who have experienced oppression. This is queer leaders, trans leaders, black leaders, indigenous leaders, jewish leaders, leaders who really can understand from being in the position of those lived identities of power dynamics. I find that it often takes more work to seek out those leaders because they are not in the public sphere, they're not necessarily the people who are getting the magazine articles or having the awards. When we do seek out those leaders, the wisdom that they can share with us about power and about humanity and about how to have open hearts and how to be whole people is so profound. Those are the leaders that I follow are people who are living in those experiences.
Speaker 1:
Absolutely Final question how can our listeners reach out and connect with you?
Speaker 2:
Sure Well, you can check out my website, which is pawanymoraycom. You can also find me on LinkedIn and on Instagram Same name, pawanymoray.
Speaker 1:
Absolutely. We will have all of that information in the show notes, the book once again, how to Hold Power, a Sematic Approach to Becoming a Leader. People Love and Respect Pawany, thank you so much for spending some time with us and just some wonderful content to help us think a little bit differently about how we show up in the workplace. Thank you, Thank you.
Speaker 1:
Cal. All right, that does it for the Rebel HR podcast. A big thank you to our guests. Follow us on Facebook at RebelHRpodcast, twitter at RebelHRGuy, or see our website at rebelhumorysourcescom. The views and opinions expressed by Rebel HR podcast are those of the authors and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of any of the organizations that we represent. No animals were harmed during the filming of this podcast.