Radical Kindness and Transformative Recruiting with Lori Wallace

Speaker 1: 0:03

This is the Rebel HR podcast, the podcast about all things innovation in the people's space. I'm Kyle Rode. Let's start the show. Welcome back Rebel HR listeners Extremely excited for the conversation today. This is one of those where I wish I would have hit record about 15 minutes ago, but it's been a wonderful introduction. Here with us we have Laurie Wallace. She is the founder and CEO of Career Ecology, a hub spot for work life empowerment. Welcome to the show, laurie.

Speaker 2: 0:36

I'm so excited to be here. I love your energy and topic. This is the time to be very innovative. Thanks for inviting me.

Speaker 1: 0:43

All right. Well, we are excited to have you and excited to talk about some of the innovation that you focus on in your work. The first question that I have for you is really around your organization. You do a lot of great work in multiple aspects of your career. What motivated you to found Career Ecology?

Speaker 2: 1:05

Yes, thank you for asking that. It really does bubble up from my working soul, I have to say. I found out that my path for healing helping to heal the human condition was recruiting back in 2001. I was pregnant eight months. The twin towers were falling. I went into labor, practically birthed my child in the living room floor. A lot of women, by the way, were in the emergency room that day After. I went through that and was actually laid off. I was an executive with a bank and I was laid off.

Speaker 2: 1:40

I had all these experiences that many listeners, I'm sure, have. Everything falls apart at once. I looked at my husband and I said I'm making a career shift. He said, all right, everything else is falling apart. It's figured out, you're out of work anyways. I said, yeah, I'm going to practice radical kindness. He's like, oh okay, what is that? Well, I ended up getting recruited by my recruiter to be a recruiter.

Speaker 2: 2:06

When I explained what I wanted to do, what I found was that on the external recruiting side, there's a lot of good work and recruiters are needed, but there is a sales mentality. There isn't a lot of deep listening and nurturing. I am a very nurturing person. I'm also a kick-ass businesswoman but really lead from the heart, really, for the last 20 years, I've transformed head-hunting into human connection. Now fast forward to 2016 and we enter into cultural climate and, ultimately, covid crisis.

Speaker 2: 2:44

That's when I looked at my husband again and said, okay, I'm making another shift. Something's bubbling up. He says what could it be? I said well, michael Mead, one of my favorite podcasters on the topic of mythology, as he's talking about what we're going through. He said folks, it's no longer enough to be an agent of change. You need to be an agent of creation. We are going to make it through if every individual that you touch or meet is liberated into their authentic self again.

Speaker 2: 3:16

I realized in that moment as a recruiter, holding space for people to cry to tell me the truth through the whole interviewing process, which is harrowing for most that there was an opportunity for me to look how I could, in the masses, bring forward what I've been teaching people for 20 years about authentic relating through the job search. Here I am today with you as a Sherpa, honestly helping people through this, this treacherous hero's journey, terrain where there's wounding and there's dark spaces and there's creatures at night looking at you and there's wondering if you'll ever eat again. But I say to everyone that is your mountain to scale. I've got the water and the compass. You're not alone. That's what it's about.

Speaker 1: 4:04

I love that there's so many good one liners in there. I think you should change your title though Lori Wallace Sherpa of the Heart. How about that?

Speaker 2: 4:14

You just gave me chills, not just on one side of my body, but both.

Speaker 1: 4:17

There you go, there you go. Oh, you get that too. I was getting that when you were talking. I get the back of the neck, chills stuff.

Speaker 2: 4:22

Oh my God, it's all over my forehead now.

Speaker 1: 4:27

Well, that's awesome. Yeah, I love that. The perspective of, instead of agent of change, agent of creation. I think that's really powerful. I have so much respect for individuals that are founders and that do hear that calling and go out and say, okay, we can create something that is better than what we've got. I do. I think it's fascinating. I guarantee you that it resonated with our listeners. Is recruiting is so much the perspective of sales. A lot of times we use the same language, we talk about funnels, but it is easy to lose the humanity. It is easy to look at candidates and say, well, this is one of 100. Here are the demonstrable skills and knowledge and experience. They do or do not fit, without actually thinking about the human being on the other end of the resume. As you work through your organization and structuring how you support your candidates, how do you make sure that you retain that humanity in the mix and rigmarole of the recruiting?

Speaker 2: 5:45

pool Such a good question. Yeah, when people find their way to me and either because I've sourced them, we have a conversation or they've been referred to me the first thing I say to them is I want you to know that I hold neutral space for dreaming. That is an invitation for somebody to not know who they are at the moment, what they want at the moment. It's an invitation for them to be frustrated, to even rant if they need to. Most of the time, when I say that, I also say my purpose of this work is to transform head hunting into human connection. I'm holding this space and I really want to know what's going on. If you at any time, need to vent or cry and actually most of the time people do cry there's an invitation for the humanity.

Speaker 2: 6:39

As a recruiter for 20 years, talking to hundreds and thousands people in various levels of the funnel, I know it's there Again. They are coming through the process. So it is this journey. I talk to them and I find that through the debriefing with the client side as well as the candidate and I'm in the middle and as an external recruiter, I have a very unique perspective where both are very truthful with me. Now a debrief of a candidate directly to the hiring authority or the internal recruiter will still be polished and there will still be some sort of censoring going on. But with me they know and I need this from them so I can really hold this neutral space. I've learned as a recruiter too I cannot demand too much. If I energetically mess it up, they literally could withdraw just because of the energy imbalance. So there's so much neutrality, so much at this holding, and they will both say I'll tell you this is 99% of the time what I hear, Kyle, in a debrief, both from the hiring authority as well as the candidate, the first thing they say is they were nice or I don't know if I trust that person.

Speaker 2: 7:51

It's always an emotional response and they're looking for that person to have shown up authentically and to share deeply their passion and very specifically why they're interested in the company. It comes down to individuals feeling do you like me and are you truthful? So it always, always starts there and I don't know if it's because I invite that, if that because I haven't been involved in other debriefs that other recruiters do, but I hold that space and for sure it is the most important part of an ultimate connection being made. If there is this feeling of this human personal attraction Starts there, and then, of course, all the credibility and qualifications and all of that. So, yeah, it's kind of simple holding neutral space for dreaming.

Speaker 1: 8:43

Yeah, it's really interesting. I should mention, by the way, that Lori has an degree in psychology, so clearly there's some expertise on holding space and being neutral and making sure that people can express themselves safely, which I think is easier said than done. So kudos to you for being trustworthy for people to share that. But I think that it's such a powerful concept and I think we talk so much about interviewing and how we should take bias out of the interview process and we should do everything we can to make objective decisions.

Speaker 1: 9:20

But the reality is so often an interview really does just come down to simply do you like somebody, do you trust them and does it feel like a good fit? And I understand that that might be a little bit of an inflammatory comment because inherently that means that there's some level of bias in the interview itself. But the reality is, as human beings, we all have that right and we're all just trying to figure out do I like this person? I know. So, as you are supporting your clients and as you hear some of these stories, I've got to believe that there are some things that have surprised you over the years, or maybe some insights that you've been able to glean as you've been working with this quantity of people. What are some things that you hear that maybe surprised you, as you get this real, honest reaction from people who are going through the job search process?

Speaker 2: 10:22

Yeah, every day I learn something new from the people I talk with.

Speaker 2: 10:28

They're all teachers and for me it's another ring around the tree or the trunk of my growth, putting in deep, deep roots, creating a holistic experience for people while reaching for the stars, and so this integration of comments from all sides and something, when you ask the question, that came to mind that, I think, speaks to that.

Speaker 2: 10:52

But in a story there was a significant, large client. I don't know their name right now, but they came forward with something really exciting and hopeful for the world about 15 years ago and it was a particular branding which they claimed was not a brand. They said it was an ethos and it had to do and I can't say it out loud because it'll give it away, but it really had to do with what people are yearning for, and certainly I would have to just say it's like heartfulness, it's a sense of working soulness, of a business that has a soul, that sees you as an individual. And there was so much going on with the PR at the time various events that it was very believable that this was not just branding and marketing. I was hired to help them search for and bring over very difficult executive level positions, typically in areas that it's hard to extract these individuals from other organizations, and this particular client paid 10% under the market.

Speaker 2: 12:00

So, now, what did I learn from this? Interestingly, I came forward and was able to story, tell and share what I had observed and learned from all the events. I shared that this was an ethos, that this was an opportunity and if they could make it work within their budgeting, within their lives, that this was an experiment that was worth testing and would they consider having at least just a conversation? Would they be curious enough? Six did come forward. They were hired. Now here's the other part of the story.

Speaker 2: 12:33

Within two years it was apparent it was actually only branding and it wasn't real.

Speaker 2: 12:40

And the drop and sadness, the disappointment from these people was so immense because they actually decided to open their hearts and trust that business could change, that it actually could come forward in a whole sense of heart, mindfulness, that it could care about them.

Speaker 2: 12:58

They all did quit and many, many more have left the organization and that organization is still out there with the brand and doesn't recognize that when it comes up on the computers in the morning that the employees feel gaslit. So what's so important is that when an organization what I've learned from this is that when the time comes forward to share something that actually does evolve us towards a holistic sense. It's really important to make sure that it is real at the CEO level all the way to the volunteer, and that it's worked in and it's reviewed and evolved and it's discussed in every single meeting, in every single opportunity, so that people have a chance to trust again and to feel like I can bring my whole heart forward and I'm safe to do so. So I want to share with you in a second. I want to take a break because you probably have a comment. I want to hear that because I want to tell you about an organization I'm going to use their name who did it right?

Speaker 1: 14:00

Absolutely. Yeah, you know it's funny, you mentioned that I think this organization shall remain nameless as well. But I have a similar example when I was recruiting for an organization and we would bring people in with these extremely positive perceptions of what it was like to work there and what I would call a little bit of a stretch as it relates to the career opportunities that were available and career mobility and how wonderful it was, and then what we would inevitably see is just this mass quantity of turnover in the first six months to one year.

Speaker 1: 14:39

And so I tell people we can talk about employer value propositions and branding and making sure that candidates feel good about the brand of the company they work for all day long, but if it's not a realistic perception, you're better off to be honest. Hey, sometimes it sucks to work here so that they don't feel like they're lied to, because I guarantee you, if they feel like you're lying to them, they are going to quit because they don't feel like they can trust anything else.

Speaker 2: 15:07

Oh my gosh, You're just reminding I had this one client. I used to say to the candidates I'd say this particular hiring manager will lay over the railroad tracks for you, but she is always in a really bad mood on Mondays because, the weekend's over and it's likely she'll yell at you how do you feel about that?

Speaker 2: 15:23

And some people are like, eh, no biggie, and the others are like no thanks. And I just understood her. She was very honest to this particular hiring manager and I think it helped her a lot that I could bring people that didn't have an issue with that. But when I think of an organization in this country that we can look at and really aspire towards, it's the Cleveland Clinic in Cleveland, ohio. And if you've read the book Servant Leadership by Greenleaf, which obviously many of us have read and are very interested in, this is starting in the 70s and it's still here and it really belongs Cleveland Clinic. Oh gosh, how many years ago. I don't know, maybe it was 10 years ago or something Around that. No, maybe longer.

Speaker 2: 16:04

It was during the time of Obama, when Obama came out with Obamacare and one of the things that he brought forward for health care is he said I am going to modify reimbursements from Medicare subject to your satisfaction ratings, from your employees as well as your patients, and if people don't like working there and don't like the treatment, we're not going to give you 100% reimbursement. So it became performance oriented. So the CEO of Cleveland Clinic at the time was very concerned because they had very low satisfaction ratings, even though they are a leading international hospital and they do good work. Still all these ratings were low and they were not getting the money. So he hires a chief human resources officer from not even health care, I think from food manufacturing or something.

Speaker 2: 16:54

I have to look back at the story. I probably have this wrong, but someone like that and he had a servant leadership background. So he comes in, he's hired, he does his analysis and what he finds is that the highest level of satisfaction on the patient side is with the valets out front, not the surgeon that gave them a new knee or saved their life, but the person who said Mrs Smith, you look wonderful, I'm so glad to see you again, you're on your way home, I hope you feel well. They were getting the high satisfaction ratings. So the CHRO comes back to the CEO and he says all right, I got the number. One thing we're going to start with here we're going to change everybody's title to one specific title of caregiver. Everyone valet, all the way up to the highest level, most competent surgeon, everyone caregiver. And they had a meeting and many of the sophisticated staff said no, no, we are giving care the valet. No, that's just not appropriate.

Speaker 1: 17:56

That hurts my ego.

Speaker 2: 17:58

Right, it did.

Speaker 1: 17:59

That works hard for that title. Yeah, I can hear it right now.

Speaker 2: 18:01

Totally we own. This is ours. Ceo said no, we're doing it. They rolled it out and immediate impact for everyone, all the way through service levels as well. And now, if you listen to any of their podcasts, they have an internal podcast. They talk about empathy. They have rolled out to all their employees to help them upgrade their own resumes so they feel empowered to move around in their careers within the organization. Everything now because everybody feels I'm a caregiver. I make a difference at the Cleveland Clinic. They have walked the talk and it is huge over there. I'm so inspired by them.

Speaker 1: 18:39

I love that and lest we gloss over the fact that that came from HR, so I think that's a great example of we do have some agency and some capability to drive some change from our seat within an organization, and that's a great case study of something as simple as job titling based upon an insight related to where your customers feel the most cared for, and you're reflecting on the employees that are providing that care and why and how they do it, and then taking that and rippling it through the organization. Like that's a perfect case study of why we matter.

Speaker 2: 19:23

That's the type of things that we should be doing. Yes.

Speaker 1: 19:27

Agreed, and so that's one of the areas I really want to talk about a little bit, because one of your areas of focus it's much broader than recruiting. You're not just trying to work in the funnel and trying to find the right fit for the funnel for the quickest turnaround. You're actually trying to take a holistic approach to recruiting and so, as you think about the practice of recruiting and the practice of interviewing, one of the areas that you have really uncovered and focused on is what you describe as the trauma of interviewing. So can you walk us through maybe some of the insights that you have based upon your interactions with your clients related to interviewing?

Speaker 2: 20:17

Yes, I know that's a big word and it might make a few people feel uncomfortable to associate that word with something that feels so every day. But I think what we really need to recognize as human beings, that there are several things in our lives that there's like a kind of the. I think maybe it's three, but it's. You know, work, our love, life and our health Is that kind of all that. Those are the main three, kind of a three. You know stool, kind of peg stool, is that if any one of those are desperately suffering, then everything else is off kilter and really if you are not steady and stable in work, then you feel that you can't even care for the other things. You know I no longer have health insurance, so that infects health and all this stuff. So you can see there's a lot of deep need here and and if you can't find work or you're being rejected consistently, you're going to feel traumatized because now you're going to feel all these other things are no longer stable, even your relationships at home. That can be fighting. There's a lot.

Speaker 2: 21:17

I've just helped somebody recently who came to me for the career ecology masterclass, which is liberation of authentic relating at every touch point. And this relates to what you're asking about with the interviewing process. This gentleman came to me after six months trying to find a position as a software engineer and he's brilliant and phenomenal and a great caring personality, but continually was receiving nose or ghosted, you know, throughout the process. After the six months, by the time he met me, he had stopped taking particular medications that he needed to be taking because this is sort of a self-care issue. He stopped really showering, he stopped picking up his two-year-old kid and playing with this kid, and and he was, he was depressed and really in trouble and and so what? The first thing I say to him is okay, we're going to practice mindful interviewing. And, and I want you to know something, interviewing is not a performance. It's not everything you hear on the internet. That is a competition.

Speaker 2: 22:15

Interviewing is a service. It is how can I help? You know me? I said this is a moment where you are collaborating with chance 50-50. 50% is your engagement from a service-oriented heart, mind, and the other 50% is actually the mystery. So you know, you interview for a job and then you can find out within that week that an internal was placed in the role or that the position has now been paused to the next quarter.

Speaker 2: 22:42

There's a whole bunch of things that are outside of your control, that you do not need to try to control. So when you realize I'm going to show up in a place of service, then now you can imagine the imagine interviewing somebody who's sitting there and saying how can I help? You know me. They're leaning in and very kind of, deeply observant of your questions. They have taken the time mindfully to to prepare and understand what your mission statement is, what your vision is. As much as they can gather, and they are present. They are not leaning forward in trying to sell you on them, you know, and overwhelm the conversation. So every single on my recruiting side, every single candidate is prepped for an hour for mindful interviewing and then they have homework to do on their own. And this even clues mantras the night before, because the night before an interview is where the trauma really is.

Speaker 2: 23:34

The ego which is part of. Here comes the psychology part of our brain, you know, which is there to protect us. You know, the first thing we do when we meet strangers is the ego does scan to see who in that group is going to cause me harm. That's why you and I are both alive right now because our ancestors did that very well. So I'm not dissing the ego, but it actually should not be in the driver's seat. The heart is the one that is intuitive, that is connected to the power of attraction, that is creative, that can create the relationship with the ego. With a GPS going, hey, make sure you set the alarm on time and let's make sure you know that you know how to use that video Like. I got on our thing here 10 minutes early to make sure I understood this platform we're on. I wanted to be respectful, and so the ego helped me do that. You know, made sure.

Speaker 2: 24:20

So the night before, the ego, though, is saying oh boy, here we go again. You know, it's been a couple conversations and you might not be picked again. And the ego is saying I don't think you prepared enough. You know all those college dreams we have? Oh, I have a class, I forgot about it. Well, the ego is doing that.

Speaker 2: 24:40

And the second thing the ego is saying is and, by the way, you're just, you're no good, you're not enough. These are the work, work, job seeking, working, all of those relationships with people trying to be seen, to be liked, to do a good job. This is existential stuff. So we've got to say what is your resilient heart? What is your brave heart? How can you lead from that?

Speaker 2: 25:06

So I have people the night before say these two mantras. The first one and I have to say it out loud, by the way, because it needs to vibrate in their bones, I don't want to pass in cloud going on here. It's like let's say it. So the first one is instead of you've been too busy, you're not ready, the first mantra is I am ready and I have access to everything I need to connect.

Speaker 2: 25:28

The second part of that is the most powerful part because truly, if you really did not have time to prep, you know, because you had a sick child at home and you know a lot of stuff going on and you just not ready, but here it is, you still have access to what you need to make a connection. So that is reassuring. The second mantra is I'm a good person and I bring tremendous value to this world. And Kyle, that one I say to people say it from now on, because that is actually connected to two key principles of nature. This is my biomemic side coming in, but the two sides of nature for diversity and cooperation. We don't have a world, we don't have a business, we don't have a team without cooperation, and we can be our best when it's diverse. So, come as you are, bring your uniqueness and serve diversity and serve life. Yeah, that's how it works.

Speaker 1: 26:28

I love it and it is a little bit of a paradigm shift, right? You know, I think a lot of times we think about an interview similar to recruiting. It's a sales process, right, you're trying to sell someone on why they should hire you. But I think most of us would agree that have been in the recruiting seat that it's so much more about feeling the connection, and a lot of times we do use the word, you know, we use the word fit or we use the word you know that. You know that they are their experience lines up or just felt good.

Speaker 1: 27:02

I feel like I could see them fitting here, right, and a lot of it is very nebulous, but it really comes down to like I feel like there's a connection there, like I feel like either they're connected to the mission or the organization maybe we had a personal connectivity and there's some sort of alignment of beliefs or vision or something as simple as great first impression that shook my hand, smiled and I could just I could feel what I would call like a frequency, right, like a positive frequency, like they're gonna bring something positive to the organization, and we don't talk about that enough. But I have to believe that, from your perspective. Not only is interviewing a service, but hiring is also a service, right, and so many of us don't think about it that way. But the reality is I mean correct or wrong. You could flip that script and look at it from an HR perspective and say I am actually also providing a service 100%.

Speaker 2: 28:03

I have a client who one time called me and said hey, lori, can I ask you a question? Do people like me? I'm blessed there and I just you know she's a phenomenal person, very different personality than me, so you get to know me. You're gonna get an email back with an emoji or two and a couple of exclamation points. So you know she's not, she's stoic, she is an introvert and it's also tied very much to her culture.

Speaker 2: 28:27

She said I am worried people don't like me in the interview, and maybe even my employees. Are you hearing anything? And I said to her well, first of all, you have a great reputation for being just an astounding clinician and a leader and you are deeply respected. I said what I am receiving in feedback after an interview is that people are frightened during the interview because you'll ask a clinical question and when they give a response, you give nothing back and you just say okay next. So what happens is their mind is now saying you mess that up and they start to retract and they start to create distance from you. And I said to her you know what all you have to do is and I you know, no emojis, no smiley faces and not saying that I said, but in the beginning of the interview, share a story, let them know that you started at this organization as entry level and look at you at this executive seat now, so you can start right off the bat and you can say, hey, welcome.

Speaker 2: 29:24

We're gonna take a few minutes just to get to know each other. I wanted you to know my backstory, how long I've been here, what I love about being here. Then I wanna hear that from you. And then what we're gonna do is kind of just go back and forth and I'm gonna get to know your background and your technical talents and you're welcome to interrupt and ask any questions along the way, and then at the end it's gonna be you, all you. I wanna hear what your questions are and really just have fun with us and get to know each other and we'll follow it from there and then you can.

Speaker 2: 29:50

She would be able to start out and say well, my story is interesting, I've been here 18 years. She could tell the story without even a ton of extravert inflection. But as long as she lets that person in on her story a little bit, now she's humanized herself and that has served a little bit PR as well, you know there's a lot of PR going on for the organization and people. If that person now interviews and they are not selected, they're going to leave and tell their friends I really like them and I think you should apply there. I think it's a great place. Now if they leave frightened, they're gonna say whoa, stay away. That's great.

Speaker 1: 30:26

Yeah, yeah, you know it's funny. So, yeah, it brings up. It reminds me of like when I was first learning about HR and I was going through, like my certification exam, there was a literally like one of the questions was this is an established form of interviewing that, like you know, intentionally puts people in stressful and they like labeled it like threatening interview style. Right, yeah, and you know, it's like it's that was a long time ago and I'm like it's so funny to think like that used to be one of the like established interviewing styles. It's like so let's try to threaten people and try to freak them out and see how they manage under pressure. But you know, I love that.

Speaker 1: 31:08

You know that the point that you articulated there so well with that story is the fact that you know we're not just picking people for our team. We are helping people feel, like understand what it's like to work here. Whether we hire them or not, it really matters what level of experience they have and if we can make sure that we have a connection with somebody through that process. Even if we don't end up hiring them, it still really matters, especially like small organizations, organizations that don't have a huge budget for hiring organizations that are working in small communities, like that, reputational stuff really, really matters and you never know when that's gonna come back. It's almost like a karmic thing, right, like it's like you know, don't put bad karma out there. You know, make good karma.

Speaker 1: 32:01

Whether you are hiring, whether you're the interviewee, interviewer, you know it's all a part of you know, kind of that human experience that we need to be mindful of, given our seats. So I absolutely, I just love this conversation. It's like I feel like we could probably go for another, like three hours or something, and I would just feel like we totally, like, totally connected, all the goosebumps, all the good stuff, but the reality is, as a founder and CEO, you are extremely busy. We're coming to the end of our time together, so I want to shift gears into the Rebel HR Flash round. Are you ready?

Speaker 2: 32:33

Yes, I'm ready.

Speaker 1: 32:34

Okay, All right. Question number one where does HR need to rebel?

Speaker 2: 32:42

I think HR needs to, similar to what I'm seeing with my candidates that I work with in pharmacy, who have never been seen or recognized as absolutely central to the success of their organization. I would like to see HR stand up and say we're all it. You need to understand, we're not just, you know, just an expense or an administration. I would like to see HR find a way, get those TED talks out there, you know, just revolutionize and say we are all it. And maybe with AI, with this shift, is the time to really step into that and own it. Its time and I think that could be behind part of HR's exhaustion sometimes is not being recognized for what it is, absolutely.

Speaker 1: 33:31

Yeah, I couldn't agree more, and we, you know we've brushed on this topic a little bit, but you know, the whole authenticity thing, right, like and this is something like I struggle personally with this, even like I have a podcast about being, you know, rebellious in HR, but it's still really really tough day to day to stand up and really like kind of swim against the current and say like, I know, this is what I'm supposed to be, but this is who I actually am and this is who we should actually be for our employees, right, yeah, and I think, but I think if there's any function within an organization that has the capability, capacity and the mandate to do that, yeah, it's human resources. And so I totally agree with you, laurie, and I have a feeling people are going to be like rewinding it, to like listen to some of this stuff, take notes, and so that's another, you know, another drop of gold there in the end there.

Speaker 2: 34:19

You know, in a practical sense I want to drop this in really fast and I know we're running out of time. But when you ask that, just in a very like first practical, I would like to see the HR person an HR person who ever selected sitting in and all board meetings and they are representing the soul and ethos of the organization and holding the team as they're making decisions, to make sure that they remember that, holding the humanity. So obviously they'd have also the HR technical, but maybe there's someone from HR that's holding that and even begins the meeting talking through what the values are and how they've shown up in the organization, reminding and keeping everyone who makes the hard choices coming back to that center working soul aspect. So that's just another sort of practical thought just wanted to.

Speaker 1: 35:03

Yeah, totally agree. In my industry I'd probably change that verbiage a little bit so somebody didn't call me like a, you know, like woo-woo, whatever. But the reality is like, yeah, we are hopefully in the room. Yeah, If we're not in the room, then you know, that's another hurdle we got to jump over. But if we are in that room, it's on us to add that value right, like I think about that from a perspective of all of our business partners at the C-suite level. They need that information in order to make good decisions. Yeah, and we need to be able to be confident enough in our understanding of the soul of our organization and the values and the humanity that we represent to give the right picture to our leadership team so that they can, you know, make some of those decisions. We're not always going to get our way, yeah, but if we've done everything we can to make sure that the full context is understood, we're going to be adding a significant amount of value to our organization. So, totally agree.

Speaker 2: 36:03

When I did a CEO search and I am at the end and they were trying to make their decision, I told them the story about the burning Notre Dame and I talked about cathedral thinking and I explained that the people who built those cathedrals would never see it built, but they did it for humanity and that this board was making a choice of a CEO that would impact people's lives far beyond them. So that's the kind of opportunity to bring poetic form to these places.

Speaker 1: 36:28

Absolutely, absolutely All right. Question number two who should we be listening to?

Speaker 2: 36:38

I think that you know I'm going to say this is a very Carl Jung thing to say, but we need to be listening to our own internal voices. It's time for everybody to do the work to touch into their own feelings and instincts and joys and concerns. I think COVID really brought us to a place where we've maybe we've shrunk back from all the distractions and we have an opportunity to say, oh, hello, you kind of come back to yourself. But we can't do everything we want to do in the world if we haven't first come to know our own selves and to actually recognize that the wounds that we have through our life are actually the gateways to wholeness. So it's a listen to self, each individual, to be the best you can be.

Speaker 1: 37:23

Absolutely, and I'm not surprised you pulled out Carl Jung, I mean given your perspective, so appreciate that. Yeah, appreciate that, all right. Final question Wonderful conversation. How can our listeners reach out, connect with you and learn more about you and your organization?

Speaker 2: 37:39

Thank you. Yes, come on over. I'm at wwwcareerecologycom, so that's wwwcareerecologycom. And also on Tuesdays and today I'll be doing it every Tuesday. I have open office hours at 430 on Zoom and I answer any question that anybody has about the job search, about working, about trying to show up authentically, how to move from being placed in some sort of box as human capital and how to be perceived as human potential in the world. That is the difference that we want to make. So that's always available and you can find me on LinkedIn and drop on in there. That'd be fun.

Speaker 1: 38:21

All right, love it. I'm going to turn this show on out, so pop open your podcast player. Click on in. Lori, it's been an absolute joy to talk to you today. Thank you for spending a few minutes with us here and sharing some of your knowledge.

Speaker 2: 38:34

Thank you so much. I really enjoyed it.

Speaker 1: 38:37

All right, that does it for the Rebel HR podcast. Big thank you to our guests. Follow us on Facebook at Rebel HR Podcast, twitter at RebelHRGuy, or see our website at rebelhumanresourcescom. The views and opinions expressed by Rebel HR podcast are those of the authors and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of any of the organizations that we represent. No animals were harmed during the filming of this podcast.