Episode 13: The Talent Cliff and Psychological Safety with Jennifer Thornton

Kyle Roed  
I'm Kyle Roed and this is the rebel HR podcast.

Welcome to the podcast. Rebel HR is a podcast for HR professionals who are ready to make some disruption in the world.

Follow us online on Facebook at rebel HR podcast, Rebel human resources.com or follow me on twitter at rebel HR guy. Alright listeners I am extremely excited to introduce you to our guest today Jen Thornton. She has developed an expertise and talent strategy and leadership professional develop over her exciting 20 plus year career as an HR professional. What excites me the most about Jennifer is the fact that she has an unconventional approach to building innovative workforce development solutions. Welcome to the show, Jen.

Jennifer Thornton  
Thanks for having me.

Kyle Roed  
Absolutely, we're excited to have you. So we started to talk about this earlier. But I'd like to just understand a little bit about how did you get into human resources?

Jennifer Thornton  
Yeah, so my background actually originated in operations. I was in the retail industry for most of my career. And you know, I realized very early on that I didn't get my results from being highly competitive or wanting to always be number one in all my financial numbers, but I oftentimes was, and I did it different. And I always kind of looked around and was like, why am I doing this different or I seem to be, you know, my approach seems to be different. And over time, what I realized is because I was really passionate about the team, being aggressive with the teammates, that I did hire, their development, how they interacted with each other, and really how they came together collectively to make the results come to life. And so that's how I did it through operations and through just a series of events. I started doing more and more projects that were people leaning, and then moved in officially into HR from operations. But because of my operations background and the fact that I woke up for a good majority of my life to my scorecard and my numbers every day, I've always looked at HR different and more from a strategic mindset of how do we deploy our teams to ensure that we're meeting our objectives as an organization.

Kyle Roed  
I always love hearing the HR origin stories. It's pretty rare to find somebody that that actually went to school and said, I went to school for HR and I always knew I wanted to be an HR, they're certainly the exception, not the rule. Absolutely. So one of the things Jen that I'd really like to dive into today is is a little bit more about your, your consulting organization. I know that you're helping a lot of different organizations on growth strategies, talent strategies, how to hire retain, develop a pipeline And one of the things that you specifically look at is something called the talent cliff. So can you help us understand what what is the talent Cliff? And how can we avoid falling off the cliff?

Jennifer Thornton  
Exactly. No one wants to go off that talent cliff, It's never good for the business. And so you know, as I watched the organizations I've worked for and watched new initiatives succeed and fail and, you know, really kind of looked back and thought, why is that and then, you know, in my own organization, when we work with organizations, and thinking about why they're successful, or while why they are struggling, and what I've come to realize is that most organizations do not have a talent strategy that lays on top of their business strategy. We talk about business strategies all day every day, and we have to turn in our quarterlies and our yearly is in our five years and then especially for startups that are going up for funding. They have all these really detailed and adapt to our business plans. But how you do that is through your people. No one says, oh, by the way, here's how we're going to do the work. Here's how we're going to deploy the work, here's how we're going to ensure that our talent is growing just as fast as our business. And so what happens is if you don't have a talent strategy that is consistent with your business strategy, your business will likely grow for a while, because you're really smart. You're bringing in great people and that business starts to take off. But then what happens is the business outgrows the skill set of your team because you haven't invested in them. And then once that starts to happen, there's some clear indicators. So our leadership that gets stressed, so they're highly directive, do this do that. They get nervous, they move into fear about the business and so they don't open themselves up to seeing the truth. Oftentimes, they get overwhelmed. There's no one good to hire, you know, all those things we hear people say, and what happens is obviously our cells start to fall very rapidly because our talent can't handle it. Our best talents starts to leave because they don't, they only want to be on a winning team. And what we're left with are those individuals who are doing what they're told. That's not what we need in a growing business. And that's when you go off that talent cliff,

Kyle Roed  
seen it up close and personal. And I think one of the things that I, I really appreciated about what you just said is the fact that the top talent wants to be on a winning team. So in in this environment, and in COVID, there's a lot of organizations that don't feel like they're winning, maybe to no fault of their own, just because of the economic environment. So what advice would you give an HR practitioner or leadership team that's trying to figure out okay, how do I keep the momentum? How do I keep my top talent engaged? And how do I help my team feel like they're winning? Even though it doesn't feel like it right now?

Jennifer Thornton  
Yeah, and that's a tough one. You know, when you think about some of the struggles, Every business has had a struggle. Some businesses have done better during COVID for whatever reason, but that means There's a struggle. And some have, you know, struggle financially, maybe because of the industry they are in. So no matter what industry you play in, there's a good chance you've had some type of struggle. And when you think about these opportunities, you know, taking those top talent, hopefully we've, we know who our top talent is. And don't think of it just as Oh, well, these heavy level executives, think about even those individual contributors, those individual contributors who come in day after day, and they are, you know, those those pieces of the engine that keep it running really well. And without them, you know, things go south fats, oftentimes, we don't even realize what some of our individual contributors are doing to keep our company afloat. So really look at those top people and start having conversations with them. You know, how are you doing? What's going on? You know, during this time period, there are unique experiences available, you know, where do you see yourself helping the organization? How can I deploy you in a way that's gives you the opportunity to increase Your experiences and your education, and really ask people to start to participate in the business and whatever way they can. And I think that's what sometimes we don't do as leaders is we, we get through tough times, and we just start telling people what they need to do. We don't invite them and to say, Hey, what are you seeing? What are you hearing? What do I need to know that I don't know today? And how do you how do you see yourself helping us? And I think that's the big question is asking people how they can show up. And because they're going to know, the closer you are to the customer, the closer you are to the business, the more you're going to know on how to take what you're dealing with and move it forward.

Patrick Moran  
You know, when you talk about the people that are in house and the role players and the contributors, you know, I think one one thing is leaders are missing the mark on asking them what what can we do differently what how can we reassure you that we're in an okay place and that's kind of hard to say when a lot of companies are not and then Okay, So I guess what suggestions do you have for maybe somebody like my organization where I can go to those top individual contributors and say, Hey, we're gonna be alright. And, you know, I guess what suggestions you have for somebody like in my position?

Jennifer Thornton  
Yeah. So someone your position, you know, I think honesty is the best way to go. You know, here are the specific challenges. Here are the three challenges that we're faced with today as an organization. Here's what we're thinking, here is what we're doing, but then invite the conversation to come in from the employees. Because if your team knows what you're specifically concerned about, then they are more likely going to be able to help you with great ideas or refocus their priorities. So if I've got 10 things on my to do list, but my CEO or my head of HR has been really clear the end of the day to get through this. These are the three things we've got to now I'm going to reprioritize and I'm going to look at my work differently. And I'm going to bring things to my supervisor that are different if I know but what happens to Often as as leaders, we get scared to tell the truth, we get scared to say, hey, it's tough, but here's what we're doing. And therefore your team is just kind of walking around in circles and, and they're not able to support you with those changes and challenges.

Patrick Moran  
You know, one thing we did here at my organization, and Kyle, I don't think I've shared this with you is we had a meeting with our CEO and all of our employees. And the message was simple. And, you know, we said to them, we're going to be alright, that's kind of how we're getting through it. But we also said to them, you know, think differently about your role. And don't just do your day to day operations or customer service functions, but really provide value. Take a look in the mirror and ask yourself, Am I really providing my organization value, and that's not just in the work, it's in your attitude. It's how you encourage your coworkers, and things like that, and that really got a lot of people to think got a lot of people nervous. Not a lot, a few, but um, I think it was appropriate at that time to send that message. And I think we've had some success with it. But you know, of course, some, some concerns. Yeah. You

Jennifer Thornton  
know, one of the things that I often work with, with executive teams when they are in a place where they feel like they don't know what's wrong, or people, you know, when I hear things like, my team isn't doing what I need them to do, or they're not bringing me ideas, and, and there's reasons why and a lot of it is fear, you know, when our fear is kicked in, you know, our prefrontal cortex isn't working quite right. And so that's shuts down our innovation and our collaborations and our thoughts. So one of the things that we do, which would work really well in this situation, if you're an organization, you have three challenges, and you need your people to think of value different think about how they're showing up different than have what I call the craziest idea ever meeting and tell your team I need you to come with the most insane craziest ideas that seemed like almost impossible. I want you to show up with them. And in fact, I'm going to award you the person who comes comes up with the most ridiculous idea gets an award. And what that does is it tells the brain, I can come up with something ridiculous. Because when we're going into these brainstorming sessions are how do we turn the business around? Or how do we handle this challenge? We stop ourselves unconsciously by coming up with great ideas, because we're in fear of rejection, fear of judgment, fear of getting in trouble for telling the truth. There's so much fear in that. And so if we flip our language, and we actually reward people for being, you know, crazy and just out there, then we get really honest, and we can open up in a whole new way. And it's just a really great way for people to show up differently and remove fear when it comes to creating new ideas.

Kyle Roed  
I think that's a great topic. And obviously, if you just turn on the news, there's a lot of things to be afraid of right now. So what advice would you give to a leader who both has a team who is just Afraid and living in a very tumultuous time, but is also afraid as a leader to give a transparent and clear message to their team.

Jennifer Thornton  
Yeah. And so fear is something that we all have in our minds. And there's a really specific reason why is to keep us alive. And so if you look at how our brains are designed, it's only has that one job, and that is to make sure that we are alive and breathing every day. And through evolution there, how it kept us alive as it kept us in the cave, because if we left the cave, then the big dinosaur might get us or a wild animal or we didn't have the right protection from the cold. And so today, our brain still does those things. But here's how it shows up in the workplace. I'm afraid I'm going to lose my job because then I might not be able to provide the same way it did through evolution. And so what you want to do is recognize this fear is a natural chemical response to what is going on. It is your brain doing It's job. And when you start to recognize that that fear is just part of how you are chemically wired, how we all every human being in the world is chemically wired, then you can start to put it to the side and start looking at it in a different way. And as a leader, when you think about those fears of, you know, oh my gosh, what if we have to do a riff? What if we can't do, we've always given an annual bonus, we may not be able to do that this year, your brain will go into fear. What I asked you to do is recognize it's just a chemical response. And that you can set it to the side and you can get creative and you can look at it in a different way. And then imagine that same thing with your team. When your person or someone on your team comes in and they're just not themselves. They don't have that energy. They're just off and you're like, why is there a problem? No, they've got some fear going on. And you know, we don't know what that is. And so having a conversation around what can you control today? You know, what are your fears if those fears weren't sitting with you today, what decision Would you make for the business and really just coming to terms with that chemical fear response?

Patrick Moran  
It's almost like when I look at frontline managers and supervisors that have 10 million things on their plate, mate, maybe they have some fears, just even talking to their employees, because they don't want to hear any bad news. And they don't want to, you know, let's say disrupt the employees day and challenge them by saying, What is your fear? It's okay to be fearful. Let's talk about it. How would you address with, you know, the managers that are with the employees every day on how to approach maybe that conversation are getting us started?

Jennifer Thornton  
Yeah, I love that question. I think one of the first things we have to do is set aside our own bias. And so it's very easy to say, you know what, everyone's dealing with COVID, I'm fine, you should be fine and kind of have that attitude or Oh, my gosh, you know, I can't leave my house. I'm very concerned and think everyone else feels the same way. So I think the best thing for leaders to do is Go into these conversations and just allow that employee to share their experience and what's on their mind for the value of which it is and saying to ourselves, their experience, their reality is theirs and I can accept that. And then after you'd have those conversations and sit down with someone and just say, Hey, I just want to catch up, lots of men go on this year, just tell me what's on your mind and listen to them. And then continue to ask questions. You know, where can you Where do you feel like you are important, you know, where do you feel like you make the biggest impact? You know, what is it going on? You know, personally, maybe someone's balancing homeschooling and trying to get their job done. How can we look at your work differently so that you still succeed and still are a top player, but yet you're still taking care of what's important. And so really taking the time to think about accepting that person to where they are, go ahead and have that conversation. And then ask questions and find compromise. Because as leaders when we get fearful and when we you No want people to think the way we do because we're in fear that we might fail. We start telling people how they should think how they should respond, and that is never going to work in those conversations.

Kyle Roed  
Yeah, totally agree. Yeah, we we had this conversation when the last podcast episodes but you know, telling my wife to calm down never works.

Jennifer Thornton  
Now, not a good not a good choice.

Kyle Roed  
Yeah, I'm still learning I have a lot to learn.

So I love it. You know, this is like the perfect quote for this podcast, their experience is their reality. And I think that that is such a, it's a different way of thinking for a lot of leaders. And so we're starting to get into talking about psychological safety, and and trust. So as you look at those items in the workplace, How can we make sure that somebody feels that they are psychologically safe at work in the midst of environmental risks that have presented themselves in 2020?

Jennifer Thornton  
Yeah, I love that you bring up psychological safety. And I know it's kind of that new buzzword that you know, it's kind of floating around. And it's so important. And the reason why the end gets important more now than ever is our 21st century, a way of leading actually promotes fear and the way in language in which we were told, and so for a lot of years, to be a great leader, you were supposed to be strong and never show them. Never show your team that you have cracks and tell people what to do. And if they miss their goals, give it to them and motivated by yelling at them. And all of that way we've been taught to lead is actually creating fear and animosity. And when we start to think about psychological safety, we really have to rewrite our language and we have to think about How that language looks different. So if you have someone who's supposed to whose job is to make outbound sales calls, and they haven't been landing as many meetings as you think you they should, you know, the old kind of responses, we'll just call them and give it to them. And that'll really motivate them. No, that's not true. That actually moves them into fear. And so the next time they pick up the phone, they're gonna be like, okay, I really need you to meet with a, they're gonna have this sense of desperation, and no, no potential clients gonna want to have a meeting with a desperate phone call portlets person who's just so desperate to get them on the call. And so if you called and said, Hey, your numbers aren't there. Let's get honest. You know that I know that. What are the three obstacles? What is the one thing I can have a conversation with you about today that will help you move the needle? It's important to say things like, What's that one thing? Because people are going to be in fear and they're going to say, Oh, I'm fine. I don't need nothing. I'm just going to make more calls. But when you say I need one thing, the brains like, Oh, I have to give him or her something. And once they start talking, they start talking More to really think about how do you have those conversations? And and What language are you using? Because our typical language actually is really dangerous when it comes to creating psychological safety?

Kyle Roed  
Yeah, I think it's, it's, it's been really fascinating, just over the last decade plus in the workplace to see the shift of what we consider, quote, good leaders, versus effective leaders and the shift from the command and control leadership style to one that I would call a more empathetic leader, a servant leader approach and, and I can personally remember getting dressed down for, you know, a bad decision that was demotivating and certainly didn't help me solve the problem. It just made me afraid that if I made the mistake again, that I was going to get fired, right. So yeah, not not a comfortable place to go to work in. Right.

Jennifer Thornton  
Right. And when we dress people down for their distance Over time I hear leaders say, I don't know why anyone on my team will make a decision without me. I'm like, Oh, I have an idea. It's because every time they make a decision, you yell at them, you don't like it, it's not the way you would do it. You don't even have maybe even never even done that job. But yet you have a really strong opinion on how to do it. So over time, you're right, they have stopped making decisions. You're absolutely correct. But it was because of the way you lead them. you force them into a corner where making decisions was a bad thing. So therefore, they don't do that.

Patrick Moran  
I think it's unique right now, the shift in business and just the world of work. We're seeing that transition with those old school managers and leaders into this new empathetic thought thoughtful type of leadership approach. And just navigating that, you know, it's a balance. And there has been that that whole control factor from I guess, the old guard to a new guard, I don't know if that's the right way to phrase that. But you see it in employees and it's it What I struggle is how do you get employees to think differently, and when they have a different leader, a new manager that wants them to share their ideas and, you know, execute some sort of piece of their job, it might not be as a way that their previous boss would have won one of them to do it. But at least they got it done. You know, they got to the finish line, how do you encourage employees to change their thought process when for 20 years, they've been pretty much living in that fear of being able to make a decision.

Jennifer Thornton  
Yeah, when you have a new leader come in, and they're, they're wanting to lead in a different way. And the whole team's like, oh, I've I've been down this road and it hurts, you know, touch touch the oven, it's hot, it hurts. You have to look at it as a laddering experience. You can't come in as leader and go, alright, well, going forward. I'm a 21st century leadership and I'm providing you psychological safety. So everyone make decisions and this is going to be great if I'm not going to happen, but you have to think about laddering as you go in and through your words in actions, people make some decisions and other people like, Oh, they didn't get in trouble. Oh, wait a minute, I said something, and I didn't get in trouble. And I actually told the truth. And I was celebrated for that. And so over time, just like over time, use people stop making decisions or stop being thoughtful. Over time, you will grow that. But what happens is because we feel like you know, once we say something, everyone should just be that way. We give up, you know, after the first month of being this new type of leadership, and everyone's not doing what we think we do, we give up. And we go right back to our old habits, because well, they're not making decisions. So I'm going to have to tell him for him. Well think about it as laddering. And every time you go up or wrong, you get comfortable and you look around, this doesn't feel so high. And then by the time you're at the top of the ladder, you're really comfortable, but it takes time.

Kyle Roed  
That's interesting. So as we're having this discussion, it's to me, I'm seeing this big circle, where we start with the concern about the talent club. And then as we look at all the players on a growing team, if they've been shut down and they've been had this conditioning that decisions that they make are bad, and that they have to circle back to a leader I just what's, what's the risk of that that actually causing the talent Cliff because you've shut down people's development? Is that a Is that a real risk here?

Jennifer Thornton  
Absolutely. And that definitely will create that talent Cliff because when people are not making decisions for your organization that move you closer to your result, then the business will fail. And if you need people to come in, make fantastic business decisions, treat your customers the way you want them treated or innovate in a new way. You have to think about the psychological safety. You think about talent strategy, everyone's like, well, what's the two things every talent strategy has to have and it's really about looking at your entire body. business, it's about looking at how do we organize work? How do we look at what work must be done? What work is nice to do? What work is a habit? What work is vanity, because we just think it's beautiful. And it really doesn't make a difference, or an executive just likes it that way. But it doesn't make a difference. vanity work is my favorite thing to talk to executives about, especially if they're concerned about their payroll numbers. I'm like, well, let's talk about this long list of stuff. But you know, it starts with that it starts about thinking about where's our organization going? And who do we need on our team? And who do we have on our team today? And how do we really start to develop them so that in five years when you need a chief HR officer, your manager of HR is ready to go in there? What kind of experiences and education and and just life do you need to give that person and then you have to think about how we treat each other and that what's that culture, psychological safety and, and there's really like I said, you know, we put so much work into business plans. And then hiring is like, Oh, hey, call the recruiter We need someone to be the director of whatever. And we don't put that same emphasis on the talent, which is how the business plan comes to life. And so that that talent plan isn't necessarily an easy two or three step process. It really is something that takes time and takes energy and you have to wrap your arms around every single day.

Patrick Moran  
You know, I like that you bring up the fact of calling a recruiter to hire a certain role. You know, I think I've always been a believer about when you recruit and bring people in, let's bring somebody in that has the skills but not just the skills let's What else do they have that they can bring to the table to be a little more versatile down the road, and maybe somebody that's willing to be open to other things and not just be in a silo on one path. And that's it. I think this pandemic, hopefully in a good way is forcing HR departments everywhere to realize that the talent they're bringing in They shouldn't just be looking for the skills of one person to do one function. They need to be looking at somebody that is motivated, somebody that's hungry, somebody that is wanting to grow and evolve and change with the business. And those are the people coming into a business that hopefully we could secure and avoid them from jumping off the cliff and leaving us after we spent so much time and effort and years and training and developing them. To me, I hope that's one thing that's good that comes out of all this.

Jennifer Thornton  
Yeah, you know, so often, you know, I spent a lot of years as a recruiter, and I find someone who I thought was perfect for the role. And I would show the resume to the hiring manager. And I'd be like, this is why I would like you to talk to this person. Here's what they bring to the table. They're like, you know what, they've been in three different industries. They just don't know what they want. And I'm like, no, they're highly adaptable. They're super creative. They're a lifelong learner. You know, I saw it so differently than that hiring manager who wanted someone to come in and check the boxes and, and I do hope that you're correct. I hope that organizations are starting to see that people who are highly adaptable and who have played in a different lot of different industries, they're not uncertain, they're actually quite amazing. They're really adaptable and love to learn and love to play in a lot of different places and can really be that that person who you can throw on three different projects and still see them shine in different ways.

Kyle Roed  
Yep, kind of grimore in that same context, as you have individuals who are what we would call, quote, job hopping. Do you view that the same as somebody who's been in multiple industries that has had multiple job

transitions? You know,

Jennifer Thornton  
I think they're worth a conversation. Now. Could there be some that have just not found their place and are struggling maybe, but sometimes if you find someone who, you know, was in one industry and did one specific, you know, maybe they were in marketing for 10 years, and then all of a sudden they moved and to, you know, cybersecurity, we want to leap right? I don't know. We're making that But, you know, then you have to stop and say, we know what this person understands marketing, they understand how to attract people's attention to things. They, for whatever reason had been in cybersecurity for the last three years, it's a really interesting combination, have a conversation with that candidate. Because if you think about someone who shows up with two very polar different, you know, kind of experiences and when that blends together, maybe some really interesting results, you know, think about it as fusion food, you know, two to two kinds of cuisine that don't sound good and then you put them together you're like, that's quite interesting. It's really good. I like it.

Kyle Roed  
Fusion food. I love that like a guy for Yeti restaurant.

Patrick Moran  
Yeah.

Kyle Roed  
They're a reference guy Fianna HR podcast, I can check that off my bucket list.

Jennifer Thornton  
Congratulations. Thanks.

Kyle Roed  
That's one of the one of the challenges I was following a thread on on Twitter and it was there were a lot of dissenting opinions about people that change jobs a lot. But the reality is that Have a lot of hiring managers that they don't if somebody changed jobs, you know, maybe once every year for the last three years, they just don't even consider. I think the other comment that I would say is you never know what somebody's circumstances are. They could have just had a string of bad luck and company that sold him a bill of goods that didn't produce and the company shut down or, you know, there's layoffs or redundancies and all sorts of you know, there's there's always more to this story.

Jennifer Thornton  
Yeah, I remember interviewing someone one time and she had that resume that I was like, hiring managers gonna think she's a job Hopper, but I just for whatever reason, really wanted to talk to the person behind the screen, you know, because they didn't really interesting experiences. And I found out she was a military wife. And so as she moved, you know, some cities didn't have job opportunities in that career. And so she took the opportunity to learn something new and expand her career and her husband had retired and they had settled in the city that we needed to Someone and you know, we ended up hiring her and she was fantastic. Because she was really scrappy, you know, she'd moved around. She had, you know, found new ways to mark her place, even though she, you know, is moving as a military wife and she was fantastic. And we loved her. And it would have been really easy to look at her resume and been like, yeah, she's a job hopper. She's been in all these different industries. I don't get it. I'm not talking to her. But I looked at it as well. This is really interesting. And, you know, found out a whole nother story from her.

Kyle Roed  
Yeah, I mean, to me, it's, it's, I hear that and, you know, in my experience with somebody who's who's a military spouse, is that they're usually resilient and adaptable, because they've had to be over the years as people have moved around. Same thing with with hiring a military kid who moved around when they were young, and maybe speaks multiple languages and is perfectly comfortable relocating from Traverse City. Michigan to Lexington, North Carolina because of a job opportunity within my organization. And yeah, I love that. That's, that's a perfect candidate in my mind.

Jennifer Thornton  
Yeah, I agree. And I think as hiring managers and as leaders, the world is becoming, it's different and it's changing. And Heck, we don't know what we'll wake up to tomorrow, because that's just how our world works. And so when we're really actively looking for adaptable candidates, and finding candidates who are creative and adaptable, we're going to need those people, because those are the ones that will help us figure out these tough times. Those are the ones that were like, Well, you know, can't sell that product anymore. Got to figure this out because of whatever change, you know, people that are afraid of adopting or want to be really pragmatic and do it the way they've always done. There are roles for those people, you know, and we need those people. But we also have to have a balance of those types of people in an organization so that organizations can be more nimble.

Patrick Moran  
That's a great message especially Students that listen to this podcast because I know if you're in, let's say, the HR field, because we're HR people, if you're getting into the world of work after you graduate, and you just want to write handbooks for the rest of your life, your progress struggle in your career, you're going to want to learn to be adaptable. And right now, in the world of HR, when, when we come in the door every day, we may think we have a plan of what we're going to do. But a day like today, me, for example, it's completely been flipped upside down. And I've had four different meanings that weren't on my calendar. So two young ones out there, learn to be adaptable. We love you.

Jennifer Thornton  
Yes, I agree. And just everything is an opportunity to figure something else out. And you know, when I work with executives, and they get mad about failures or mad, mad because something went wrong, and we sat down and we kind of unpack it, and we look at what is what's the ripple effect of it, they always learn something, something became better somewhere. And so when we can start to think about those situations and think All right, let's help you Do we adapt? What did we actually create better out of this tragic tragedy, or this challenge? When leaders start to think that way, you will start to see people adapt and be more nimble.

Kyle Roed  
All right, Jennifer, well, we are closing in on time. And I want to make sure that our listeners can connect with you to learn more. So where can we find more information about Jennifer thorton.

Jennifer Thornton  
So you can go to the website and we're at 304 coaching.com. And I spent a lot of time on LinkedIn. So check us out on LinkedIn. I'm at Jennifer Jen Thornton ACC. And connect with me there send me a message love to continue the conversation.

Kyle Roed  
Yeah, a lot of a lot of great value for our listeners today. And you know, we are just scraping the surface of all of these critical topics. So I encourage you to connect with with Jen and I'm sure you'll find some value in what she has an offer. So Jen, thank you so much. I thoroughly enjoyed having you as a guest today and Have a great rest your day.

Jennifer Thornton  
Thank you. I enjoyed it.

Kyle Roed  
All right, that does it for the rebel HR podcast. big thank you to our guests. Follow us on Facebook at rebel HR podcast, Twitter at rebel HR guy, or see our website at rebel human resources.com using opinions expressed by our podcast Are those the author's position

Jude Roed  
maybe