Rebel Human Resources Podcast

Episode 14: Implementing Inclusion Strategy with Claudia Schabel

October 20, 2020 Kyle Roed / Claudia Schabel Season 1 Episode 14
Rebel Human Resources Podcast
Episode 14: Implementing Inclusion Strategy with Claudia Schabel
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Rebel Human Resources Podcast
Episode 14: Implementing Inclusion Strategy with Claudia Schabel
Oct 20, 2020 Season 1 Episode 14
Kyle Roed / Claudia Schabel

Join Kyle Roed in a conversation with Claudia Schabel about diversity, equity, and inclusion strategy, and steps to get to your inclusion goals in the workplace.  

Claudia is a sought after speaker and consultant in the inclusion space.  Are you worried about the current labor shortage? Are you frustrated by your organization's inability (or slow progress) to increase diversity on your team? Are you aware that unconscious bias could be hurting your bottom line?  Claudia helps with these challenges as the President of Schabel Solutions, and as the Diversity Chair for the Iowa SHRM State Council.  

Claudia supports:   
1. When organizations want to roll out Diversity, Equity and Inclusion plans, but don’t know how and where to start.
2. When leaders want to assess alignment of core values with employee behaviors and overall workplace culture.
3. When organizations want to diversify their talent pool and don't know what and how to do it.
4. When organizations want to proactively uncover persistent challenges that hinder inclusivity and diversity of talent and thought.

www.schabelsolutions.com
https://www.linkedin.com/in/claudiaschabel/
http://www.iashrm.org/

Rebel HR is a podcast for HR professionals who are ready to make some disruption in the world of work.

We'll be discussing topics that are disruptive to the world of work and talk about new and different ways to approach solving those problems.

Follow Rebel HR Podcast at:

www.rebelhumanresources.com
https://twitter.com/rebelhrguy
https://www.facebook.com/rebelhrpodcast
www.kyleroed.com
https://www.linkedin.com/in/kyle-roed/

Rebel ON, HR Rebels!  


Support the show (https://www.patreon.com/rebelhumanresources)

Show Notes Transcript

Join Kyle Roed in a conversation with Claudia Schabel about diversity, equity, and inclusion strategy, and steps to get to your inclusion goals in the workplace.  

Claudia is a sought after speaker and consultant in the inclusion space.  Are you worried about the current labor shortage? Are you frustrated by your organization's inability (or slow progress) to increase diversity on your team? Are you aware that unconscious bias could be hurting your bottom line?  Claudia helps with these challenges as the President of Schabel Solutions, and as the Diversity Chair for the Iowa SHRM State Council.  

Claudia supports:   
1. When organizations want to roll out Diversity, Equity and Inclusion plans, but don’t know how and where to start.
2. When leaders want to assess alignment of core values with employee behaviors and overall workplace culture.
3. When organizations want to diversify their talent pool and don't know what and how to do it.
4. When organizations want to proactively uncover persistent challenges that hinder inclusivity and diversity of talent and thought.

www.schabelsolutions.com
https://www.linkedin.com/in/claudiaschabel/
http://www.iashrm.org/

Rebel HR is a podcast for HR professionals who are ready to make some disruption in the world of work.

We'll be discussing topics that are disruptive to the world of work and talk about new and different ways to approach solving those problems.

Follow Rebel HR Podcast at:

www.rebelhumanresources.com
https://twitter.com/rebelhrguy
https://www.facebook.com/rebelhrpodcast
www.kyleroed.com
https://www.linkedin.com/in/kyle-roed/

Rebel ON, HR Rebels!  


Support the show (https://www.patreon.com/rebelhumanresources)

Kyle Roed  
I'm Kyle Roed and this is the rebel HR podcast.

Welcome to the podcast. Rebel HR is a podcast for HR professionals who are ready to make some disruption in the

world.

Follow us online on Facebook at rebel HR podcast, Rebel human resources.com or follow me on twitter at rebel HR guy.

Alright listeners, I am extremely excited to have a conversation today with Claudia schabel, President of shavel solutions. She helps organizations diffuse the dangers of unconscious bias from overlooked potential to outright train wrecks. It's a great header, we're going to be talking about diversity, equity and inclusion and focusing on sustainable actions that you can take as an HR professional within your role.

Claudia Schabel  
Claudia, welcome to the podcast. Thank you, Kyle, for having me. I'm excited and really looking forward to our conversation.

Kyle Roed  
Me too. So I know Claudia she has presented at our local Sherm chapter meetings a few times, she's got a great perspective. So I'm really excited for all of you to hear that today. So, Claudia, why don't we start with you just telling us a little bit about your organization?

Claudia Schabel  
Absolutely, we'll be happy to. So as you mentioned, we really focused on helping organizations overcome the dangers of biases that either are conscious or unconscious, that could be hindering talent potential. So in other words, how can we build inclusive environments that help each one of us build our capabilities in order to make the contributions that we're capable of making, because at the end of the day, companies hire talent, because you need them. But often, given some circumstances in the workplace, people don't quite are able to live up to those expectations, or live up to their potential. Because there are things getting in the way, bias is being one of them. So we go in, we help organizations identify the biases help put some strategies to mitigate those biases. We help with culture audits, we help build strategies that are going to take them from vision to execution. And let the fun begin. So that's that's what we like to do and have a lot of a lot of fulfillment from doing as well.

Kyle Roed  
I think the challenge in my seat as an HR practitioner is a lot of times, we understand how critical This is to culture, we understand how critical it is that employees feel comfortable and safe at work and that they have a workplace free from bias. But the question that I get from a lot of my peers is where do I start? Yeah. So when you go into an organization with how, what does that look like for you? And how do you approach the that question?

Claudia Schabel  
Yeah, I think it starts with awareness, it's very difficult to mitigate something if you don't even know that it exists. So it starts with understanding that we all have biases, it's part of human condition, we're all in the same boat together. With that said, it also starts with acknowledging that it doesn't mean we're off the hook, we all have to entertain and commit to interrupting the biases, because of the impact that they can have on our work, on our interactions at work, and even the overall organizational performance. So it's, it's understanding that we have biases, it's understanding the impact of biases and committing to looking into how we might unknowingly might be contributing to perpetuating some of the stereotypes and biases that are really the contributing to all the net cuttable outcomes that we either angry about or sad about. So it's really taking a closer look at that and taking personal accountability. Often when we talk about diversity, equity and inclusion, Kyle, if either falls on the HR professional lap or on the CEO lap or in a group of passionate volunteers and I don't even like to use the word volunteers because I cringe every time I do that, you know For me, those are the people that are overachievers, specifically when you're taking on a such a big job besides your full time job. But it's really up to each one of us to make our own contributions to building those inclusive workplaces. So understanding bias is the first step.

Kyle Roed  
So I can hear the conversation now. And I've had this with leaders in my past, when I confront them with the fact that we all have biases, a lot of times I am faced with a response of I'm not racist. Or, or I don't, I don't I'm not biased against anybody. You know, I don't see color, you know, those kinds of statements tend to come out as we're having these these discussions, what is your response to that type of feeling as you are? educating people on on biases?

Claudia Schabel  
Absolutely. Yeah, I think there is a, there's a way of talking about bias. That doesn't quite make people feel defensive. And helping people understand that, because you are good people, because you want to continue to be good. You want to know about your biases. And the reason is because you want to close, what is the gap between your intentions and your impact? I think if you asked me, I would love to know that every action I take in my life is aligned with my core values, and how I want to make a difference in this world. The problem is that those biases, the shortcuts that help us make quick decisions are happening outside of awareness. And they might not always be lining up with our conscious beliefs and values. And I would think leaders would want to know that in order to really close that gap in an intentional way. So that's where I start the conversation. But then part of the conversation, Kyle is also where you're getting at, is to say that if we're not taking steps towards interrupting those biases, unknowingly, we might be contributing to systemic racism, and discriminatory practices that are not our ultimate goal. So I think it's worth a look and entertaining how we can be a part of the solution.

Kyle Roed  
I love that comment that making sure that every action is aligned with core values and the gap between intentions and impact I, I have yet to meet somebody who says yes, I am an overt racist. And I want to continue systemic racism. I think that my opinion is for the most part, people have good intentions. And but but those intentions don't have the impact that they hope me my personal situation is I grew up in a town of 5000. In clarinda, Iowa, I was completely ignorant to some of these situations until I was until I was educated and brought along into the world of inclusion and and then once you start to peel back the layers of the onion, and you realize all of the barriers that are in place, unintentionally, I, you know, I didn't intend for those to be there, but within my personal organizations, and then, you know, it was almost like an awakening, like, Oh, my gosh, this is this policy needs to change.

Claudia Schabel  
Absolutely. And I know you are a great champion of diversity and inclusion, and I am so thankful that your experiences have led you through the path of learning how that impacts others, but also how impacts you often when we talk about diversity, equity and inclusion. Some people don't include themselves in this conversation, because they think we're talking about disparities impacting people they don't know. But the reality, we're talking about people that they know, they just don't know about it yet, how it's impacting them. So it's really engaging in the conversation so we can make sure that everyone those who we know and those who we don't know can benefit from some good practices.

Kyle Roed  
Yeah, that's a great point. So can you give give us an example of an unintentional bias or a situation that you've observed that has been detrimental to the workplace culture?

Claudia Schabel  
Yes, I hear often. Kyle of people saying I don't see collar. I treat everyone the same. And, And to me, that's an indication of having a biased opinion that Seeing racial or ethnic differences is part of the problem, when in reality, it's actually part of the solution. Recognizing that we are all different that we differ, we offer something different perspectives, backgrounds, experiences, we have a different voice. And all voices need to be heard. That is actually a part of a very productive conversation. And not seeing those differences is contributing to the complicit silence that we see in organizations today, when there is, you know, very conscious, biased bias towards people. So when I hear the words, I don't see color, I treat everyone the same. Immediately. For me, that's a red flag. And I understand that here in Iowa, people are trying to do the right thing. Maybe they were taught that it was rude, maybe they were taught that collard doesn't matter treat everyone the same, because we're going for equality. However, you can't get to equality without acknowledging the current state and the current state. We're not quite there yet. We're all starting at different points. And you can't, I think, you know, if you if you are a runner, I think everyone wants to start at the start line in we're not everyone's at the start line right now. So equality will be when we're all at the start line at the same time.

Kyle Roed  
One of the things that you helped me understand and one of your presentations was the difference between a quality and equity. And in the context of a white male, the truth of the matter is that if you are treated the same as somebody who is in a minority community, or in a different situation, socioeconomically or they have barriers in the way, if you if you are both treated exactly the same, they will have less advantages than you.

Claudia Schabel  
Absolutely, absolutely. Yes. And I like to to use analogies, you know, like this role race that I was talking about the start line for some people who are runners, it resonates with them. For those that are not runners, perhaps it's week one, but, but I will tell you what personal example, when I was growing up, and I don't know if your listeners picked up on my accent, but I grew up in Brazil, I lived in Brazil until I was 17 years old. And then I moved to Japan with my family. But early on when I was in school, I think I was maybe a second grader. I wasn't quite reading at the level that I was supposed to be reading. And my twin sister, on the other hand was much more advanced. She was a great reader. And my mom then went out into the community and looked for resources for me. And she found me a tutor. And in order for me to to catch up in that was great help. That is exactly what I needed. That is equity. My mom didn't get my sister a tutor because my sister didn't need one. He asked you know, equalities, given both of the kids a tutor, either they needed or not equities, really meeting people where they're at understanding the hurdle, understanding how some policies or practices are impacting them, give them their circumstances, even before they get to you. So I think that's the conversation organizations today are trying to have, and really understand the context of where people came from, in order to make it work for all of us.

Kyle Roed  
I think about this in the context of working from home, we have had to get to know our employees on a much deeper level, partially because their kids are now running through the running through the screen on it on the zoom calls. But also because working from home presents a significant number of barriers to people who maybe don't have great internet at home, maybe they're maybe they're working at home with children, maybe they don't have the means to put their children in daycare. Maybe they have a personal health condition that precludes them from you know being available. What I've actually seen as it's in a in a weird silver lining for COVID-19 is it's actually fostered empathy at my company, because we've had to get to know each other on a much deeper level. What are some action steps that an HR professional who maybe is, understands that they need to foster diversity, equity inclusion, their organization, what are some actions steps that they can take to educate themselves and educate their teams and really start to make this a focus within their organization. Yes, that's great. Great question, Kyle. So let me give you a couple of

Claudia Schabel  
action steps here is they're not all simple. So bear with me here, I'm going to try to be as clear as I can be, because some of these steps, it's more than one step. It's, it's something that I want people to walk away with a cohesive idea of where to start. So I'm going to tell you that it starts with you, as an HR professional as a leader, what can you learn? And how can you walk the talk? It starts with learning the six C's of inclusive leadership. And this is a model framework designed by Deloitte. And it's very effective in showing what inclusive leaders do. And the first C is commitment to the business case of the of diversity and inclusion. And as you and I know, Kyle, it's more than saying, Yes, I support diversity, it's really being able to articulate the business case for yourself, and also for your organization. It's really internalizing the values that make the the this work makes sense to you. So get rid of the cheat sheets that you have in your back pocket when it comes to talking about diversity and inclusion. Just focus on what that means to you and why it makes sense for your business. Second, courage to speak up in challenge the status quo whenever needed. I think, Kyle, you know, the practice now of working from home, you you you spoke to something that potentially could be very detrimental for some people, like you mentioned, not having a stable internet connection or having the equipment or having even a room in their house that is private enough for taking business meetings. So some of those conversations appear to be inequitable, appear to be biased, speak up, find courage to to find congruency between the core values of your company and the actions that your leadership team is trying to take three cognizance of bias, we talked a little bit about bias. But just for those of you that may or may not be familiar with the topic, it we're talking about those quick associations and judgments, they're happening in our minds outside of our awareness, and they're happening just like this. And over time, they become shortcuts. And those shortcuts help us make very fast decisions. And they also help us make good decisions, not bad decisions all the time. Unfortunately, we are those shortcuts are those associations that sometimes we are bringing with us since the times of when we were a child in those shortcuts might be very erroneous, you know, it might not be very aligned with your core values, it might not be aligned with your conscious beliefs anymore. So being aware of those biases is the first step in order to be able to, you know, have the alignment between your intentions and your impact for curiosity about others perspectives about other people that might come from a different background. And really be curious, you know, for genuinely curious to understand.

What does it mean to you? Help me Help me find out, being five being culturally intelligent. And this is really about being also emotionally intelligent. I know many of you leaders understand what emotional intelligence is. and culturally intelligent is somewhat along those lines. But it's understanding that when you have different cultures, different perspectives, knowing how to navigate those differences, and find still some alignment in synergy. And six, being collaborative. How do you why your your team to collaborate to be collaborative, because collaboration is at the core of inclusivity. So that's the first step. The second step is establish common language. Common Language is one of the key issues that I have seen within organizations that want to embrace the values of diversity, equity and inclusion, but they lack the common language so they are afraid of saying the wrong things. They don't know what you mean by diversity by equity. So people stay away because it's safer, less complicated. So once you stop those terms define them clearly. So everyone's on the same page. In different things, different terms, that means different things for different people. So understanding and taking that input as you are framing, that is how it's done. Three, develop a vision and strategy. I am very biased Kyle towards having a strategy, because this work is a lifelong work, it will not go away. And if you are not sure what your vision is, and where to start, you could be jumping into activities for many, many years to come in not be moving the needle the way you intended to. And it can be very frustrating. It can be draining, it can be a recipe for burnout and disaster. But developing a vision and a strategy to get you from point A to execution is I think one of the recommendations I'd like to leave you with. And there are more actions too. But I want to pause for a second Kyle, just to let you chime in.

Kyle Roed  
Yeah, no, that's great. I'm just I'm making frantic notes to make sure that I have Okay, step one, do this step two to this. You know, if I can back up I'm curious to ask your opinion on on this topic, because I've, I've seen some interesting, I'll call it debates in my circles as it relates to a business case for diversity, equity and inclusion. What is your take on the importance of a business case? What What does that look like?

And yeah, I guess just just helped me understand your perspective on what's needed with the business case.

Claudia Schabel  
Business Case. Sure. You know, multiple people have different takes on the business case, Kyle, but for me, it's besides being the right thing to do. from a human perspective. It's also something that you do as a business. And most of my clients are for profit businesses and in their corporate clients. So it's important also to understand how that impacts your bottom line. So it doesn't mean you're doing for the bottom line only you're doing, it's the right thing to do. But there is a lot incentive for doing it, right? Because there is data showing that a direct correlation with increased sales and profit, when you have more gender diversity when you have more racial and ethnic diversity in teams, or in leadership teams. When I started my career as a diversity and inclusion practitioner over 15 years ago, Kyle, we didn't have this hard data, it was just this conviction. And it was quite frustrating not to have the data that McKinsey and Company provides. catalyst and other organizations have been so hard at providing to us. And so I'm very appreciative of the hard data, because for those that need to see the data, it's there. Now, do we still have a lot more room to continue to collect more data points and even get a handle on inclusivity? From a data perspective? Absolutely, I think we could invest a lot more time in doing that. So but besides the increase sales and profits, we also have seen that inclusive workplaces have reduced costs associated with turnover, with burnout. You know, a lot of the the companies that do a very good job and have been doing this for a while, people come to work because they want to be there. And that allows people to make contributions, spark innovation, and really get your company. Give your company an edge, a competitive advantage that we talked about, but many don't know what that feels like, don't know what that looks like. But that is definitely impacting the bottom line when your employees want to be there and do the best work they can do.

Kyle Roed  
From my perspective, the argument was that you shouldn't have to have a business case because it is just the right thing to do. So if your company's forcing a business case for diversity, then their argument was that's not a place you want to work.

Claudia Schabel  
Ah, interesting.

Kyle Roed  
But from my perspective, that's just how business operates. You have to have a business plan. And, and there needs to be deliverable outcomes. And I think about it, you know, in the context of diversity, I think very differently than my CFO and I'm a visual connection. You know, emotional kind of a kind of a thinker and decision maker. My CFO wants to see data, he wants to understand where this falls on the priority list. And, and then the critical thing from my mind is, as an HR person, if you want resources to get anything done, yeah, that's going to cost time, energy, money, sweat equity. You got, you've got to be able to make articulate that business case so that you can get resources to go out and do some of these things. Absolutely.

Claudia Schabel  
I know, Kyle, I think that's such an interesting conversation, I need a business case to go to the gym, for heaven's sakes, I will tell you, I have I try to articulate that business case, often sometimes I lose, because I haven't internalized it. But so I think for those of us that live in corporate environments, I think we have learned that there are people that will get on board if they see certain types of information. And I think, you know, trying to be inclusive, trying to understand the diversity of learning styles, is how you get the message across. So I like you learn that for certain people, certain types of information, data points will matter more than for others. And I like to be prepared to have the conversation with all people. So I will always do the best I can to articulate the business case.

Kyle Roed  
That's great. Yeah, I think I think that's a, that's a critical point in my mind. And I think a lot of times, as HR practitioners, we aren't necessarily the best at articulating that, because a lot of times we we do operate on on maybe a different decision making style than somebody in the financial sector, or sales or operations or, you know, pick a pick a function. Right, we're all a little different. The other question that I had, as you were talking through some of these steps, what revolves around common language. And I think one of the biggest challenges that we run into in HR is that a lot of times we are torn between being focused on employee and human experience, and focused on compliance, and, and, you know, mitigating legal action. And within those two areas as it relates to diversity, it, it does get a little bit scary, because it's not safe to start to talk about race and foster that conversation within your culture if your culture has issues.

So what what advice or what, what approach would you recommend to an HR person who knows that they need to do this because it's the right thing to do? But is afraid to really start to get honest and transparent with their employees about actions that need to be taken?

Claudia Schabel  
Yes. That's a an excellent question. Because right now, that's what I'm talking about with I was sure I'm State Council. And I'm going to be offering three sessions for those directors that sit on the council on how to facilitate some conversations about social justice, race, and equity with their counterparts or employees in the workplace, which is not always easy. But I think it comes down to a few things. One, if you're going to start having this conversations out of the blue, I'm not sure it's going to go well. You need to understand, where is your company, in this journey? Have you been doing this work for a while? Have you articulated the business case? Have you tried to understand some of the biases that you may or may not have? And then now, do you feel that you you have the skills meaning listening skills, understanding of some of those concepts? Or how equity actually works outside of the workplace and in the workplace? Do you feel that you have that in your your toolbox in order to sit down and listen to those experiences that might be very different from yours. That's where you're at. I think you're ready, and you need to prepare a little bit. You need to have some rules of engagement. And then set expectations besides rules of engagement meeting, let's be respectful. Let's not interrupt, you get the the what I'm saying that having those basic guidelines. You also need to be very clear about expectations and my excellence. perience Kyle, when we talk about conversations, people immediately jump into, what are you going to do about it? After the conversation? What are action steps? What are you going to be implemented. So if you don't have any intentions of implementing anything that comes out of the conversation, you need to set the record straight from the get go. But let's say your organization is on the flip side of that you're on the other end of the continuum, you just decided to get engaged in this conversation a more formal way now about diversity, equity and inclusion or social justice in general. And you want to jump into a conversation. I would pause, I will pause. Why? Because I think there are some more foundational steps that you can take in order to pave the way for those meaningful conversations to actually make a difference. Otherwise, it can be very overwhelming. It can be very frustrating for HR and leaders to just open the gates receive the feedback, and really feel lost as to what it means to them what it means to do organization and not knowing what to do from there. That's my two cents worth.

Kyle Roed  
That's great advice. Sometimes I fall into that camp of I just want to go do things.

So good. Yeah, good advice. I'm taking notes. Like I said,

make sure I remember your advice, Claudia. Thank you. Yeah.

Claudia Schabel  
We don't know it's like peeking through the curtain, you don't know where you're going to see on the other side. And you want to make sure you're prepared. Because sometimes it takes it takes up one good idea, badly executed, to leave people with a lasting impression that you are not serious about any of this work. And it's very unfortunate and even unfair. But that's the reality. And the reality is also that it on the other side of the curtain, we have employees that have been living with trauma in the workplace for many, many years, they have been wanting to have those conversations for many, many years, they're waiting for you. And and now that you said you're ready, but you're not really ready. It's not easy to digest this. So I would be very, very thoughtful and deliberate in how you position a conversation.

Kyle Roed  
Great advice. The other thing that I i've personally seen and and I consider this, one of the critical aspects of a business case, but companies who get good at this and truly build an inclusive culture, do have a competitive advantage within the marketplace for when you're looking for top talent, when you are looking to be more innovative in your product and how you serve your customers, as you are looking to try to retain more people. an inclusive culture, statistically shows that you have a competitive advantage. So I'm curious, you mentioned some of the research around McKinsey and and catalyst and I know Deloitte has a lot of great research. What What advice would you give to somebody who kind of knows this? They know this? They've seen it but but they can't they can't put it down on paper or they can't they can't make the business case or bring bring the rest of the executive team along for the ride? What? What advice would you give them if they're they've just kind of feel stuck? Okay,

Claudia Schabel  
so I think you'll have to study it. This is I think, something that I had to do with many different topics within my area of diversity, equity and inclusion, because I noticed that I had this emotional understanding. But I wasn't able to articulate in a way that made sense. And also sometimes when I caught myself saying it, it wasn't quite as convincing as I thought it would be. So I think you need to study it, you need to have the data read, analyze the data for what it is, but also bring that into context for your own work in your organization. And try to find case studies within your organization that will illustrate the impact that you want to articulate for your organization. Because we all have those case studies those scenarios that we can take from one action into a potential You know, future outcome that we're looking at? exploring with our leaders, right. So hiring often comes up. You know, there are a lot of there's a lot of data right now talking about hiring and biases and, and how to mitigate biases in the hiring process. And we know that there's a correlation with diversifying your workforce with increased productivity. Take a look at your organization, what are some of those instances that you saw, you know, a diverse, a person, I don't like to say diverse hire, because I don't know what that means. But a person with a diverse background, a person with a diverse background, that came into your organization, and did something differently. And that sparked a completely different way of looking at a process, or looking at product development or marketing. We all have those nuggets, we just don't leverage those Nuggets to tell our story and to articulate that business case, from a place that you know, well, which is your company, which is your business,

Kyle Roed  
have done thousands of interviews, I can honestly tell you that it's really easy to screen people with the halo effect. Yes. And if you don't actively make yourself aware that you like people that are like you. Mm hmm. On the same background, you are going to miss out on a whole slew of diverse candidates that are different than you. And ultimately, that's what your organization needs to succeed. So well, well put, well put,

Claudia Schabel  
yeah, we have this tendency of prefer people that are in our in group versus the outgroup. In the in group are the people that are more like us, at least on the surface, right? That look like us, and the outgroup, the people that on the surface don't look like us. And the halo effect is when it's really when they say something that you find very positive or, or attractive, or that you have in common. And that information now makes everything that that person does or say sounds very positive. So we start to lean towards those candidates that we have more infinities with versus those that are neutral, but doesn't mean they don't have anything in common with us.

Kyle Roed  
Yeah, I think a great example of that is something is something as simple as talking about sports, in an interview as a way to build rapport, which is very common, can actually be detrimental to inclusion efforts, because that person might like soccer, for international listeners football ad, I might like American football, and detest soccer. So the fact that you like Manchester United, and I like the Green Bay Packers could actually hurt your chances to get that job, even though you might be the best candidate.

It's kind of a silly example. But it's, I've seen that. And I've seen a hiring manager ask what are your What are your favorite hobbies? And I just cringe because it's like, No, don't. That's too personal. It's not and it's not effective, and understanding how this person will do the job. Right?

Claudia Schabel  
In Kyle, I've heard in the past, hiring managers taking some of their top three candidates out for breakfast or, or lunch, come back. And when we're talking about how do you think that person would do the job and what to do effectively and efficiently? Based on what you heard, they would turn to us and say, I didn't like him. or her for that matter. He used too much ketchup.

Kyle Roed  
I don't like ketchup so I can understand how you feel that way.

Claudia Schabel  
That was mind boggling for me. Because when a minute how are we getting to this conversation about ketchup when it has nothing to do with the the core qualifications or duties of the job? Show educating leaders about what's in scope or out of scope is a very important step and educating them on how to interrupt some of those biases.

Kyle Roed  
Yeah, I'm sure we're going deep here. I'm sharing a lot about my my implicit biases here. Ketchup is one of those that that would fall in there. I do want to spend a little bit of time talking about some success stories and I think this topic can can be really heavy and challenging and in in the times that we're going through right now with the election and the social unrest and quarantine and, you know, whatever, new, you know disaster of the month, pops up next month. I'd like To spend some time talking about successes that you've seen,

Claudia Schabel  
Mm hmm.

Kyle Roed  
through some of the work that you've done, and you know, what has worked in in, you know, give, give me some good stories.

Claudia Schabel  
So when it goes to the workforce, I worked with a local nonprofit organization that serves a lot of the underserved community members in our area. And they are statewide and very effective at what they do and have a great reputation. What they realized is that while they're helping other companies to attract and retain employees from a certain demographic, they themselves as an employer, we're not hiring those individuals from that demographic. So and usually it's people with disabilities. So they want it to call me in and said, Claudia, we want to get to understanding better what is happening here, because we're helping other companies, how come we're not hiring though. So we start with just a conversation about bias and how bias can get in the way of our good intentions. And then we moved on into designing a not a full blown recruiting strategy, but it was a sourcing talent management action plan. And after that conversation about the action plan, we assigned responsibilities changed a couple things that they were doing, and they started to implement the action plan. And by the way, what I thought this organization did very well, and I think that's why it was successful, is that they didn't stop the conversation just at the top layer of their organization with the leadership team, they actually rolled out unconscious bias training to the whole nonprofit organization. So everyone knew what they were doing, why they're doing why it was important. And when they started to implement the plan, within nine months, they had a 12% increase in representation of that demographic. Well, we're very intentional, they devoted the resources, they had the plan, and off they went. So that's a success story. So again, it doesn't mean that you're doing everything under the umbrella. But you focused on one area that you really thought would help your business, your organization. The second organization is a manufacturing organization here now as well, if this organization had a long term employee, in fact, this employee was working for this organization for about 30 years. And one day, the employee came to work as the opposite sex. So this employee decided to transition into the work in the workplace. So it was a transgender employee. And that caused a lot of turmoil. It caused a lot of conversations, it caused a lot of complaints. HR was receiving a lot of phone calls, people were upset. And again, this this people work together for 30 years, they're friends. But all the sudden this employee was using the bathroom, that he wasn't, quote, unquote, he wasn't supposed to be using and HR didn't know what to do about it. So when we talked to HR, we talked about a transgender policy in the workplace, and how to ensure that people that are transitioning, they know what to do, they're safe, and also took time to get to the bottom of the complaints and maybe to no surprise to you, Kyle. The main complaint was actually around the bathroom use and deciding to have a bathroom policy around being a gender neutral bathroom. That made the complaints to HR decreased by 90% 90%.

So just by saying this bathroom is gender neutral, and now you know whoever wants to use this bathroom, they can alleviated quite a bit of the frustration and attention in the workplace. And there we also rolled out unconscious bias training to that plant, because we we thought people needed to understand their own biases, and interacting with their long time friend and colleague. So that that's a metric right there. And that I think is, to me, it's very impressive. And then in the marketplace space, we worked with a financial services company. This is actually a company that has done so much work around diversity, equity and inclusion that when they hired me, I actually, I'll be honest with you, I thought, I'm not sure how I can help them, they're already helping themselves. But they decided they wanted to do the unconscious bias training. And we talked a lot about how to customize the training, the content, so it was relevant to all employees. And they decided to roll out the training to their 500 plus employees that they have. And interesting thing that came out of the training, and they do trainings every two years or so. So that was something that they were committed to doing no matter what. But what came out of the training that I think was unexpected to me is that some of the people that we're dealing with the the clients, the customers realized, during our sessions together, that they had biases that were unconscious at the time towards offering online banking services to older customers. Because they assume that older customers want more the face to face interaction, or we're not good with technology. So they're not even offering some of those online banking services. And then quickly after the training, they decided to be more intentional about offering those services, and they had an increase in the adoption of those services in a very short amount of time. So those are three success stories in three different areas, I think, could help to tell a story that you don't need to do everything all at the same time. But whatever you do, make sure it's aligned with revision, that you measure success, whatever it is, so you can tell your story.

Kyle Roed  
I love the case studies, I learned so much just from hearing success stories. But you know, what, what I heard is, you don't have to change the world. You just have to be focused and change one incremental thing and be intentional about it. And and that that can ripple beyond right?

Claudia Schabel  
Absolutely. Kyle, they're well said,

Kyle Roed  
I have a story that illustrates my bias a little bit. As it relates to manufacturing, a lot of times we have a stigma, and we can assume that our manufacturing employees have certain political views or feel a certain way about a certain group of people. And it's, it's unfair to think of them in that way. So the story that I like to share is the the time when I actually I moved my office at one point, and I was because I wanted to be right on the floor right next to the manufacturing associates and wanted to be more available to them. Yeah, so I was literally right on the basically route on the manufacturing floor, and I could hear the machines running, and I could hear the conversations that were being had outside my office. And I've been in that office for about a week. And I heard I heard someone yelling. And I and I don't I didn't know what was going on. I'm thinking, you know, you know, in my mind, oh, no, somebody's fighting. So I throw my safety glasses, I run out to the floor. And I realized that somebody is is actually singing the the Muslim call to prayer. And I was like, Okay, I could, you know, I could back off and then I just stopped and I looked around at the employees and nobody seemed to nobody had any issues with it. Nobody even you know, gave it the time of day and the the gentlemen working on that machine with this individual. They worked in a pair is uh it's like wearing a Harley Davidson leather jacket, you know, scruffy beard, you know? And look, you know, definitely the your prototypical tough guy. And they're working right next to each other. Well, there's no concerns here. You know, and I and I, I took a step back and I thought, Okay, I need to, I need to have more faith in people. And I need to check my own internal biases about my employees. And I think as an as an HR professional, you know, my advice would be find those. Find those moments. Check your biases. And don't underestimate people.

Claudia Schabel  
Absolutely. I love that. Don't underestimate people and check your biases. It helps to understand when some of those biases might be kicking in, right, it could be in the morning, it could be when you're stressed or multitasking, which some of you would argue it's all the time who's not stressed what they can write 2020 Exactly. But it could, you could find that there might be moments that you're more prone to having some of those immediate reactions than others.

Kyle Roed  
Absolutely. Absolutely. And and I think the other thing, I think that you mentioned that we can't reiterate enough, it truly is a journey. It's nothing you're ever going to be able to truly solve. It's just it's a constant progression, and it will come. And it will continue to be for the rest of our working and natural lives.

Claudia Schabel  
Yeah, if you don't mind, Kyle, I'm going to make this last comment here. Because I, I think it's important. That's exactly it. What I have been seeing right now with this conversation about the covid 19 pandemic and how it has impacted so many communities and it has magnified the disparities that in inequities that we have known that they have been there for so long, and maybe some of you didn't even know they existed. But now, I think most of us have come to terms that they're there, in the fact that we're having the the civil unrest around social justice, our cries and, and also racial inequalities, I find that a lot of people want to engage in this conversation in good faith, a lot of people are finding the time to educate themselves. And I think that's very rewarding. And I'm hoping that we'll continue to be talking about this and continue to let the conversation evolve. So we get we can get to a place that people feel comfortable understanding that, yes, we look different in and that will make us better. On the flip side, I want to also say that what I have seen some people do is that they have been reading a couple books. And now they feel that they are ready and equipped to go out there and fix the problem. And as you just mentioned, Kyle, we're not going to fix this problem. Because the way you might want to fix the problem might not be fixing it at all, it might be making it worse. So I think you've having vulnerability and humility, and understanding that this is bigger than us, and bigger than all of us together. And we need to be patient and continue to engage in this conversation so we can get to a place that it feels better. It's part of our commitment to social justice. It's part of our commitment to diversity, equity and inclusion. And if you are going to be doing this efforts within your organization, it's important for those people to have passion, but passion alone will not get the job done. So make an investment, hire the right people hire the skill sets that you need to advance this conversation within your organization.

Kyle Roed  
Great comment we'll leave it there. Thank you so much, Claudia. If any of our listeners want to get connected with you, how can we get in contact with you? Sure thing

Claudia Schabel  
Well, I sit on the iOS Sherm state comm so you can find us there and the website my email is schabel at schabel Solutions calm and happy to answer any questions that you know maybe what I said confused you or if it's lingering and percolating reach out happy to engage in a conversation

Kyle Roed  
much appreciated Claudia as always I always I always learned so much when I talk to you I I'm just loving this one on one conversation.

Claudia Schabel  
Really appreciate it. Same here and way to go wait to be a rebel Kyle Good for you.

Kyle Roed  
Yeah, we're we're excited to to continue to push the boundaries a little bit and, and change mindsets.

Claudia Schabel  
so wonderful. Thank you for having me.

Kyle Roed  
Thank you Have a great rest your day. You do.

All right. That does it for the rebel HR podcast. big thank you to our guests. Follow us on Facebook at rebel HR podcast, Twitter at rebel HR guy or see our website at rebel human resources.com views and opinions expressed by rebel in our podcast Are those the author's position

Jude Roed  
maybe