Rebel Human Resources Podcast

Episode 19: The Workplace Chameleon, Celina Peerman, PHR

November 24, 2020 Kyle Roed, The HR Guy / Celina Peerman, PHD Season 1 Episode 19
Rebel Human Resources Podcast
Episode 19: The Workplace Chameleon, Celina Peerman, PHR
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Rebel Human Resources Podcast
Episode 19: The Workplace Chameleon, Celina Peerman, PHR
Nov 24, 2020 Season 1 Episode 19
Kyle Roed, The HR Guy / Celina Peerman, PHD

Join Kyle Roed, Molly Burdess, and Patrick Moran as they speak with Celina Peerman, from the Peerman Group.  They discuss topics ranging from recruiting, leadership, and HR taking care of each other.   

Dr. Celina Peerman serves as an organizational psychologist through motivational keynotes, breakout sessions, and training that focus a wide range of research-backed workplace behavior topics plus a big dose of humor.

For over twenty five years she has worked in human resources seeing the serious side of business and the light side of being human at work.

As a keynote, Celina’s style has been described as dynamic noting the ability to draw in even the most resistant through real life examples and humor.

Her experience includes senior leadership roles in human resource, organizational development and operations positions in both profit and non-profit organizations. Her work in Southeast Asia, Canada and Central America gave additional business operations experience, further developing her strong international interests.

Through thousands of hours in hundreds of companies she works one-on-one and in small group settings with a range of difficult topics sensitive to the workplace and all those involved.

Celina's passion is for workplace behavior and ultimately, how people drive performance in every organization.

http://www.drcelinapeerman.com/
https://www.linkedin.com/in/drcelinapeerman/


Rebel HR is a podcast for HR professionals and leaders of people who are ready to make some disruption in the world of work.

We'll be discussing topics that are disruptive to the world of work and talk about new and different ways to approach solving those problems.

Follow Rebel HR Podcast at:

www.rebelhumanresources.com
https://twitter.com/rebelhrguy
https://www.facebook.com/rebelhrpodcast
www.kyleroed.com
https://www.linkedin.com/in/kyle-roed/

Rebel ON, HR Rebels!  

Support the show (https://www.patreon.com/rebelhumanresources)

Show Notes Transcript

Join Kyle Roed, Molly Burdess, and Patrick Moran as they speak with Celina Peerman, from the Peerman Group.  They discuss topics ranging from recruiting, leadership, and HR taking care of each other.   

Dr. Celina Peerman serves as an organizational psychologist through motivational keynotes, breakout sessions, and training that focus a wide range of research-backed workplace behavior topics plus a big dose of humor.

For over twenty five years she has worked in human resources seeing the serious side of business and the light side of being human at work.

As a keynote, Celina’s style has been described as dynamic noting the ability to draw in even the most resistant through real life examples and humor.

Her experience includes senior leadership roles in human resource, organizational development and operations positions in both profit and non-profit organizations. Her work in Southeast Asia, Canada and Central America gave additional business operations experience, further developing her strong international interests.

Through thousands of hours in hundreds of companies she works one-on-one and in small group settings with a range of difficult topics sensitive to the workplace and all those involved.

Celina's passion is for workplace behavior and ultimately, how people drive performance in every organization.

http://www.drcelinapeerman.com/
https://www.linkedin.com/in/drcelinapeerman/


Rebel HR is a podcast for HR professionals and leaders of people who are ready to make some disruption in the world of work.

We'll be discussing topics that are disruptive to the world of work and talk about new and different ways to approach solving those problems.

Follow Rebel HR Podcast at:

www.rebelhumanresources.com
https://twitter.com/rebelhrguy
https://www.facebook.com/rebelhrpodcast
www.kyleroed.com
https://www.linkedin.com/in/kyle-roed/

Rebel ON, HR Rebels!  

Support the show (https://www.patreon.com/rebelhumanresources)

Celina Peerman:

There's the folks that are in that bureaucracy structure, having a hard time adapting to this getting more rigid as a response. Or you have kind of the other end of the continuum, understanding this as a dynamic, engaging people in new ways, starting different kinds of conversations to try and navigate this really just unexpected unknown time.

Kyle Roed:

This is the rebel HR podcast. If you're a professional looking for innovative, thought provoking information in the world of Human Resources. This is the right podcast for you. Celina, I'm really thrilled that you're here with us. Because when I wrote out a list of all the people I wanted on this podcast, you were on the top of it.

Celina Peerman:

I think, you honor.

Kyle Roed:

Yeah. So and I wanted to make sure that this thing didn't suck before he asked you to join us. So, so far, doesn't suck too bad. So thank you for joining us.

Celina Peerman:

My pleasure. Thanks for the invitation. And it doesn't at all, I've enjoyed listening to it.

Kyle Roed:

Well, I really, I really appreciate it. And so for our listeners, we're doing this a little bit backwards, but I'll introduce you to Selena. So Selena is an exceptional person and really a critical member in our local Sherm chapter, she helps us through a number of issues with her leadership. She has a number of accomplishments. So I think the best person to tell us about him is Selena. So Selena, welcome to the show. And why don't you just tell us a little bit about yourself?

Celina Peerman:

Well, thank you. I, you know, I, as as I was thinking about it in preparation for today, you know, I really stumbled into HR by accident. And it was the best find I could have hoped for. You know, I started as a recruiter, and, you know, my background has been a combination of HR and operations, but was really fueled by a fascination for how we do this work, you know, 120 years of modern business history, and I'm not convinced we've gotten smarter, and so is. So you know, it's an out of this passion for what's this look like in the organization of today? And what's an effective team look like? And what's coming up. So it really has been 27 years of, of trying to figure out what what does this take. And so for me, it was a pathway to finish some schooling. And the last 12 years has been private practice as an organizational psychologist, fuelled by HR, and with some crossover and understanding of how we work effectively in an organization. So HR is, HR is my tribe, it's my home, it was my first love. And it really has fueled my last 12 years of what some probably would call more consulting, but I spend most of my time as a trainer by choice, because I think we've got some amazing companies doing really good stuff that I want to support and lift up and encourage and add tools to their toolbox. And then we have some companies not doing some great things for their people, and I get to walk alongside them too, and, and give some pretty specific candid advice. And, and we just kind of see how all of this works. When we spend, you know, 3540 45% of our adult life at work. I'm a little fascinated by it, thanks to my HR background.

Kyle Roed:

Yeah, and I love the I love the take the the organizational psychology, focus, and, you know, the trying to understand how people work in how systems work and putting that all together, I think it's just a really great background. I know I could use all the help I can get.

Celina Peerman:

You know, a friend of a friend of mine was described, she's a sociologist, and we get a few jokes and have a psychologist and sociologist, you know, walk into a bar. But you know, she's she's always explained that the sociologists look at the individual and what they're doing, and they look out for the source or cause and psychologists look in for the cause inside the person. And I think what I've always been is really a social psychologist, by mindset, because in our workplaces, right, it's always a dynamic of how that how the environment responds, how the individual reacts, how the environment responds, it's always a dynamic relationship. And that was my fascination for years and HR, of why we did the things we did and doesn't lead us to better results or better outcomes, whatever organization is doing. So that has for some reason become my life's work and for the next Oh, probably 20 ish years. That's where I you know, it's been fun to watch an ebb and flow as organizations evolve and we'll see what the next 20 years of learning brings.

Molly Burdess:

Selena, you're really making an impact. So I thank you so much on everything that you do for the community and the HR people within that community. You're a huge asset. I got asked you I want ask you about your starting in recruiting because I have a lot of people ask me this, if they feel like recruiting is a good start on the HR front, and I've heard some different opinions. You know, on one side, I think people call it a soul crushing sales role. The other people say it's an amazing start, you make the best connections, and learn a lot. I just want to know your take on it. And how did that help you long term?

Celina Peerman:

I think as my first position in a recruiter position, recruiting HR, for positions was a fantastic way to learn the field, understand what it really takes in that initial process to get the right people on board. I think that shaped me for a long time. And so I do think that was a great place to start, learn the business, learn the role of people learn qualifications, learn how to make a good hire, as long as you've got access to know did it work? Did I hire the right people? You need that feedback loop? And so are we making good decisions? What's our pipeline look like? who's involved with that? hiring and onboarding process because ultimately, the recruiter can be very effective. But they can't be unless all the rest of the systems work. I did spend a moment about a year as a third party recruiter. And, and I think it's always good to have a job, you know, you never want to do again. You know, that experience was fantastic for me, and really good for me to know what what I'm not good at?

Patrick Moran:

No, I have a question. We talk about a lot on these podcasts and stress quite a bit. And I stress this applies if you're coming into the field of HR, especially for our younger listeners out there. Um, you know, a lot of times you'll have organizations that just have HR roles, Justin benefits or just in recruiting or just in labor relations, what have you, in your opinion, how important is it for an HR professional, to know truly the ins and outs of the business to be an effective HR leader,

Celina Peerman:

I believe it's important. And I also believe though, it can come in stages. So especially as a young professional coming into this field, I want you to soak it up, but I don't want you to soak it up just in HR, I want you to learn a little bit about sales, I want you to learn a little bit about engineering, or finance or operations, whatever that looks like in your organization, I want you to be curious, to do some reading to ask some questions. I think it's good for HR people to specialize in areas that are their strengths. So if you really, you know, are a generalist, I've been an edge, I have been a generalist my entire career. And it took me a long time to figure out that's okay, that I didn't have to specialize. But I also know there's some roles I should not have, because they're, they're like painstakingly stabbing them. And I and and you tell if I could have taught myself that lesson at 22. And, you know, not at 50 that would have been fantastic. But I think if I learned that a little sooner, I could have gone to those strengths. And we see it now with understanding strength, space. work, right fit, go where you but you also I really want especially our younger, early career professionals and they may not be younger, right but earlier and they are HR career to try a couple of things, see what fits and and be okay, if you're a specialist, be a specialist and be a darn good one, hold yourself to the body of knowledge and the standard practices and, and do that great. If you're a generalist, then then then be a great generalist. But for both of those pathways. Find out about the rest of the business because I think it is been in the last 10 years in the HR field, we've come to understand how important business acumen across the organization is. And we provide a lot more value, when I can at least understand why those financial reports read the way they do and why why inventory management inventory churn is so critical. If I at least have some additional understandings, I'm going to do my job a whole lot better.

Molly Burdess:

And that's how you become a valued business partner. You have to know how the business operates and how the business makes money and when they don't and why. Absolutely,

Celina Peerman:

yeah, that's how we write on Mali. That's how we bring value to to being an effective organizational leader with a with our specialty in HR.

Kyle Roed:

Absolutely. You know, I mean, I started my career in an operations role. I didn't even really know what HR was certainly we did not have a we didn't have a degree for it. In the business college I went to so it was like chapter Ate in my operations management class, right? But, uh, so I kind of fell into it. But once I figured out what it was, I was like, Oh, this sounds, this sounds great. But I truly believe that I would be a terrible HR person if I didn't have the exposure and experience of being an operations leader. And understanding how things worked within the business and what accountabilities were on leaders, and how hard it was, gave me empathy to help leaders out,

Molly Burdess:

coming from not an operational background, Patrick and Kyle, I know you both have that. And for me, I feel like it takes me a little bit longer to get up to speed with where you guys are at because you have that experience, and I don't so I think that's a really beneficial thing that you guys have.

Kyle Roed:

Selena, the the other point that you make, I'd like maybe for you to expand upon it a little bit, but the fact that you figured out what you didn't want to do, and I think part of being a great HR person, especially in the world of recruiting and organizational design is figuring out where the strengths and people lie and where you need those strengths to be.

Celina Peerman:

Yeah, we're certainly seeing in the literature and then just lived experience. Now, we can't always design jobs to fit people. However, we need to continue to do the best part of that analysis that we can have. What's that? What are those skill sets? What are the strengths we need in this role? How do we bring someone into that? And and how do we shift work around when we can to be able to fit the strengths of those team members and the organizations that I see, just knocking it out of the ballpark right now consistently, even as tough as 20 has been my leading edge companies that I'm just so proud of get that and they understand that we can always redesign the work because there's work that has to get done. Anytime you can go to strings, it's just going to serve you there's a better engagement level, there's better performance just consistently. And and it takes some effort to do that. And not every organizational leader is willing to put in that effort. But I get a little frustrated when people don't want to put in that effort. But they expect results. And I just don't believe in this post 2020 organizational world that we're moving into that it's sustainable to do that with shortcuts. I that's that's, that was it's interesting. I'm recorded prior to 2020. Stating such and I think 2020 has just amplified that much more on how do we really look at the work that needs to be done efficiently and effectively in organizations? How do we put the right people in those seats? How do we prepare them that those, those seats are going to move around a little bit because our organizations have to be able to stay dynamic enough to adjust with changing times. And I'm concerned in some degree that as HR continues to move forward, we remain flexible. And we're not given a lot of leeway in our legal system in some of our external environments to be as dynamic or responsive as we need to be. And I think we have created some barriers there. That while the organizations that really see that strength based approach are limited by certainly some case law, some legislation, some regulation that prevents us from doing that, too. And yet, I can also go that I'm pretty concerned, I want to I want to make sure that there's a reason why we talk about employees as vulnerable populations because employers organizations hold a lot of power and we need people, good people care for them to be able to do their best work. That's a few thoughts on that Anyways, what would you add in anyone?

Patrick Moran:

I actually curious to hear your perspective. Right now. We're about I think 20 minutes in and nobody has said the word Yang. Kyle likes to bring it up first. So I'm going to do it in the world of COVID. I said the cold. You know, right now is such a critical time for HR as businesses get leaner, you lose bodies, whether it's a layoff, reach early retirement, that sort of thing. As we all know, the unemployment rate has jumped, you know, over doubled. It's such a critical time for HR professionals, all of us and in all of our organizations to identify who that talent is as we get leaner as organizations, who's going to be the better fit or more flexible to fit to fill those gaps. Now file Molly and I are all in our silos of our businesses and we know what is and that's what we're helping with right now just within our four walls. But the organizations that you speak to on a daily basis, Selena, I'm just curious what that impact is like, and are we the only one struggling with that? Or? I would I would experience I would. Everybody struggling with that.

Celina Peerman:

On on most years, I'm seeing about 250 groups 2020 has been a little interesting. And I love you know, I didn't clarify at the beginning of this if this was a COVID, free session or not. So thanks for letting me know that. Right, because I with with COVID, and was struggling to find the right people in the right spots dynamic enough to change. You know, it's the same thing HR is battled with for years. And if I say it this way, right. General job descriptions, very specific job description, General job descriptions for specific job descriptions. And, you know, I just, I'm curious, and I'm wondering what that looks like right now. So how do we find the right talent on that's flexible enough, but we can be clear enough about roles and responsibilities. And I'm not hearing even though unemployment has certainly shifted. In general, companies that I am working with right now are still struggling to find the right people for the right spots.

Molly Burdess:

I think part of it is the culture piece as well. So it's not only the talent and the skills, but does your culture and the tone that you're setting, as a leader allow for individuals to try new things and to, to adapt and to pivot? I think that's a big piece of it as well.

Celina Peerman:

Molly, it's, it's it's so clear to me, and we've seen it in certainly topics and discussions that culture is everything. And, and it is, I also don't believe it really goes to leadership. And and how we're leading, and reminding right, you this leadership journey is not for the faint of heart. If you're going to be a leader in your organization. This is hard stuff. And it should get harder. As you move into more leadership responsibility and, and how we're cultivating leaders. I was concerned about leadership fatigue before 2020. And I'm now even more concerned about leadership fatigue. And so if we are seeing then straight, not want to step up, if we're seeing leaders fatigued and burned out, then what's that message sending to our new employees? And their participation in this and how we need them to help drive through this time?

Kyle Roed:

Yeah, it ain't easy. Yeah. leadership or HR, buddy? Oh, that's kind of what we signed up for. Right? I mean, yeah, this is the gig.

Celina Peerman:

Yeah, is it's not the easy path. But that's why we love the challenge of this right. And how we continue to take this on is critical.

Kyle Roed:

One of the things that you mentioned, I think you absolutely hit the nail on the head, and that is the the risk of HR being inflexible during this time, or any disruptive time, because guess what, just just because we get a vaccine, or therapeutics that make COVID go away, that doesn't mean that the next disruption in the world of work isn't coming from a

Celina Peerman:

healer, Hornet. And I love you know, I love the work that this that the three of you have been doing and really understanding disruption and disruptors and, and, and how we think differently about things, but we're still locked into a fair amount by regulation, that still prevents us from being as disruptive as we need to be.

Molly Burdess:

You've said that a couple times, and I'm curious what examples you have, um,

Celina Peerman:

just in terms of right, the the, the way we manage people and what we're allowed to do or not allowed to do, and, and not getting stuck in that thinking, because we've lived right, a lot of risk mitigation, legal regulations. And depending on the position of our company, and the the strategic approach we're taking to people, by taking better care of people, it should open up more options for us. And I'd love to hear what that this group thinks about it as compared to maybe some of the more traditional models where it is much more structured, limited, regulatory driven, and how do we manage, you know, how do we really bring out the best in our talent? in those environments, when we have a lot of stuff we have to find out?

Patrick Moran:

I guess my hope out of all of this to kind of answer that thought is I hope companies look at HR in a different way now. And really it in a thoughtful way that, you know, HR departments took on this pandemic, for the most part, our HR departments and safety and health well, but we're showing value in a different way that's most critical to all of our businesses. So As more disruption comes down the road, whether we're ready for it or not, or know what it is or not, hopefully the first thing the winners look at is, well, look how the HR department handled the pandemic, maybe they can help us handle this. Now, that could be both a blessing and a curse, because then we see a lot more work come our way, which is okay. But hopefully it just shows the value we've brought in.

Kyle Roed:

I think it's I think that's an interesting point, Patrick, but maybe be a little bit contrarian. I don't think every HR department is doing that right now. I think some HR departments are probably being rigid and inflexible on some of the policies and procedures that may come back to bite them when unemployment levels go back to the way they were pre pandemic. And so, I mean, from my perspective, yes, it's been busy and hectic and my nickname at work is the QB COVID. QB. Because it's like, which, which player? We call it in the playbook today. But I think the big risk here is that there are I think there's HR practitioners out there that are trying to force this into the lens of bureaucracy and systems and structures in order to manage it. And the truth is that this is such a dynamic situation. You're you're going to alienate some of your employees by doing that, that's just the way it is. Very well said. But, Patrick, you're you're wonderful. So I'm sure you're not doing that.

Celina Peerman:

Yeah, just for the number of organizations I'm seeing I, I think there there's kind of, there's the folks that are in that bureaucracy structure, having a hard time adapting to this getting more rigid as a response, right? Or you have kind of the other end of the continuum, understanding this as a dynamic, engaging people in new ways, starting different kinds of conversations to try and navigate this really just unexpected unknown time.

Kyle Roed:

Right. And I think, you know, my call to action when this this whole thing started. And, you know, to be fully transparent, I had a lot of people who were strongly against changing policies and practices, to the point that, you know, they didn't think that this was something we should send people to work from home through. You know, and I had those conversations outside marketization as well. But, you know, I think that the the truth of what we're dealing with right now, or any disruption is, people will remember how you treated them now. well beyond when this thing is passed. So if you're, if you are being more rigid, or you are being an empathetic, eventually those people won't be around anymore.

Celina Peerman:

keyword, they're empathetic. Yep. Yep.

Patrick Moran:

I've seen this a lot I love about that point is it's not how we handled it, but how did they feel when it was all over? That's what they'll remember how they felt. Not exactly how our how we adjusted policy, but how they,

Celina Peerman:

which all connect to one of the areas I'm spending a lot of time in now is understanding psychological safety of how safe people feel within organizations within their team. And there's a lot of really neat stuff, just evolving and emerging, kind of with an exclamation point, because of 2020, around psychological safety. And I would just for the for the listeners, and for this team, put it on our radar screen, because there's just some really good conversation to have there. Back to the points that were just made about how you feel, do you feel safe, and and safety has so many different ways to look at it, and you're going to do very different work when you feel psychologically safe.

Kyle Roed:

I think that that's a that's a critical point. psychological safety, for me is a really fascinating study. It's just really interesting to me, how that impacts people's, you know, attitude towards their employer and their performance. And, you know, I think any HR professional needs to at least get directionally aligned with what that that thought process is. So great call out. You know, I think that is that's another thing for an HR professional to keep in mind is that psychological safety isn't just for the employees that you support. But we need to have that for ourselves as HR practitioners as well. And a lot of times HR kind of takes the brunt of the stress of others and doesn't necessarily shake that stress off.

Celina Peerman:

I fully agree. And I really think that we all need to be really good advocates for each other in talking about how important it is for HR people to be taken care of. themselves during this time and finding their outlets and finding their methods for being able to continue to do great work, and it's really hard to do. And we've, we've talked about the risk of burnout for years of people leaving the profession of, and I really want to make sure that we're supporting each other, and that, that people have outlets that they have resources that the best advice, you know, part of that challenge with helpers is they help everybody else, but they aren't always really good at taking care of themselves. And every time I say that, I need to put an exclamation point on that for myself as well. What about the three of you?

Kyle Roed:

Yeah, I, I'm terrible at that. I mean, I, and I think it's one of those lies that you tell yourself, like, Oh, I can deal with this, you know, I'm tough. Whatever, it's, it's just part of the job, I'll just, but eventually it trickles into, you know, your personal relationships, your personal life, you get easily frustrated with your kids, or your spouse. I mean, you know, I can always tell when, when I'm maybe bringing my stress home, when my wife looks at me and says, Are you hungry? Because I'm being cranky.

Celina Peerman:

You think with this year, with us not getting together in some of the ways, you know, zoom, still helps. But it's a, you know, those, those virtual connections aren't quite the same. And I've always referred to meetings and conferences, and even just meeting up for a drink or for lunch is kind of unofficial group therapy for HR people. And we're missing that this year. And I'm wondering, you know, how much of that we're really risking this year, because we're more stretched, we're more challenged, and probably not taking as good care of ourselves as we should be.

Molly Burdess:

We're very much missing that.

Patrick Moran:

Yeah, I agree. That's, that's the hard thing. And Kyle and Molly and I talk about this. And I mean, this is, you know, the probably one of the most challenging years for president of Cedar Valley. Sure. I mean, what Molly's doing, and she's been awesomely trying to do things keep people connected. But it's also a bummer that we can't get together and just have our outlets, and just whether it's to vent, or about five minutes, let's hear about your business for five minutes. That's I think we're all struggling with that we all miss it. Um, I know, I certainly do, especially the conferences and seeing all you guys face to face, we're so excited to get disrupt HR going and talk about all of this, what we're doing now, in a disruptive way, and, and we put the brakes on it, we only had one event and it kind of sucks. But we'll get back to it. And let's hope that people will be encouraged to get back out and see each other again, whenever that's possible.

Celina Peerman:

So I think we turn that into a challenge, right for all of us on the on this today. And to all of the readers that do something going into fourth quarter of this year, reconnect with someone you know, you don't have to do it face to face, but really take a look at that self care piece. Not just to set a new year's resolution to but really make sure that we're coming out of this stronger as professionals, stronger as a profession. And we need those we need those connections just like all four of us logging in today was so excited to be able to sit here and banter with the three of you because it it just does something right when we when we have that connection.

Kyle Roed:

I agree hundred percent. And I'm sorry, but the zoom the zoom like happy hour things. No, no, thank you. I don't want to I want to sit at home and drink, you know, without having to stare at a screen and watch other people just drink you know. Yeah, I would agree 100% Selena and that's actually that's really the root of why we even started this podcast was just I, I felt disconnected, I felt a lack of, of connection with my people. And it was probably out of a moment of, you know, professional loneliness and, and needing to connect and learn from others. through such a challenging time, and I think 2020 regardless, we all need that.

Celina Peerman:

Some of the work I'm starting to really look at and think about is in there's some predictions out right now of as this as the conditions of this year linger. We've just got a lot of grief. And I love your phrase of professional loneliness, right of just things that we lost this year, that we won't get back in the same ways and what's this look like as we kind of as we carve out 2021 and new practices and new outlooks and how we take on the challenges of organization and really go through that. That grieving process.

Molly Burdess:

For me, what was really helpful as I had to shift my mindset, I found myself getting into I'm sure like many people into this hamster wheel of, okay, I've just got to do this to get by and just have to do is to get by, you know, in the fall will be good to go. It was kind of the survival mentality. And I had to shift that to a thrive, like, Okay, this is the cards that were dealt, let's turn this around, and let's be strategic, let's make the best of it that we can. And to me personally, that made all the difference. So just pivoting from surviving to thriving and just changing your mindset and it changed everything for me.

Kyle Roed:

Well, sad. I can tell you one thing that HR people that I know, we're gonna come out of 2020 with a lot of grit.

Celina Peerman:

Absolutely.

Kyle Roed:

we're going through the school of hard knocks right now.

Celina Peerman:

Aiden found that in in just my own work with our small team and, and organizations, there was a time about the second week of August, the there was just kind of that blip are we going back to school and not going back to school, some numbers are starting to tick back up from COVID. And in a weird kind of set of circumstances. And just a couple of hours, I had a whole set of cancellations come through. And I got that mid March feeling of boom. And, and it just happened to be circumstantial. It was just a weird combination of things that happen. It didn't last. But I remember catching myself in that breath going, Hey, wait a minute, you're way smarter than you were in the middle of March, right? You got this you're better positioned, you know some stuff. And even if the challenge is completely different, right, whatever. next big challenge we face is going to be different than this challenge. But we've learned something and if we can choose to learn and grow. Wow, yeah, some grit, some new perspective and to be able to say, hey, okay, throw it at us. We got this. That's that's what we do in HR.

Patrick Moran:

You know, to go back, I want to go back up and touch on that mental the stress of psychological safety. You know, when we talk about all of us on the call, and Selena, you asked how us we were handling it, and I you know, I'm looking at the name and thinking about myself, and we all have kids at home that are in, you know, elementary school. And, you know, in the back of your mind, what stresses me out the most during all this at work, you hear the stories, oh, my daughter's classroom was exposed, but she's okay. They don't have to quarantine for 14 days, so she can still go to school? I do. And then I got another employee Two days later, hey, my kid was exposed. Now I got to work from home for two weeks. And I think the just in the back of your head, you think about when's that gonna happen to my kid? When am I gonna have to read set and rebalance a 14 days to be home with my kid? And what's that gonna look like? It's one of those things, it's always there, I don't think until something figured out better than what it is. Now, I think that stress is always going to linger for a lot of people, because they have kids, um, that that stress is always going to be there but we got to be respectful of that stress. And I think as employers, we all need to work together to be flexible and work

Molly Burdess:

that's been really hard for me because my response always goes to I want to fix it and I want to offer you solutions and I and I want to help you get through it and I have found that is not the answer in this time. That is not what my employees need. So I've been really working on that. But that was that was a real struggle for me this year. I don't know if you guys felt the same.

Celina Peerman:

Molly I love your point to that of maybe switching over to in when we want to be able to fix it we want to be able to take care of this we've really switched to a year of we're gonna journey this together we're gonna figure this out together and and that's a hard thing to let go of for helpers not to fix. And I think we all just need to be aware of that and and that again, it's a mindset shift even like you mentioned from surviving, you know, surviving to thriving to fixing to just walk in alongside with and we're going to take on these challenges together and I think in a lot of ways that's probably healthier for us in the long term.

Molly Burdess:

Yes, I think I'll be better I know I'll be better for it. You know another great thing just me personally as hard as this year has been it's really helped me as a leader you know, the mental health I have never personally experience any mental health issues. You know, this year I felt the loneliness I felt the low energy I felt some of that depression stuff. So for me just I mean, this year has really given me some insights on the things that I've never experienced that I will be able to hopefully help understand my employees, my friends, my family a little bit better. So you know that a couple good things have come out of it this year for me anyway,

Celina Peerman:

definitely. Some some lessons learned and I love that you can apply it that and it really is my ongoing endeavor that we needed to dig D stigmatize much more about mental health and mental wellness. And this year, I think helped put some exclamation points and some new pathways to really talk about how do we create mentally well, mentally healthy workplaces, for people to thrive in

Molly Burdess:

Salina? What are you seeing? Are you seeing any employers HR people taking that idea, that concept and applying it creatively to bring their employees and their team some of that mental health mental wellness,

Celina Peerman:

I'll put a short plug in for the mental health aid, Mental Health First Aid class that's now available for people to take. And well, that probably doesn't sound quite as creative, just support of that as critical to get people some training and some words to say when somebody is feeling anxious, when someone's expressing, right? Either loneliness or disconnection or maybe an ongoing kind of depressive state, the the available tools through Mental Health First Aid are fantastic if you do an internet search on that. I think what I'm hoping for, it's just bringing up some healthy discussions, like you said, just this an awareness of Yeah, that's I've challenged with that, too. And I hadn't seen it before, it hadn't come up that way before. I can't, I'm not thinking of anything. Hugely creative at the moment, I'd be curious if anybody else's thinking of something of what they've done, other than putting some of the topics on the table, having some meaningful discussions around them, although I will say one of the. And so you kind of have this wide range, I'll tell you another, I just learned about an organization that as part of their, and I loved how they called this their COVID coping plan for employees, they paid everybody's Netflix for a year. So you know, again, what I love about that example, right? Mental Health First Aid all the way through paying for Netflix, I think we just I want us to come up with what's our covid care plan look like? And and how could we, you know, we have moved from surviving to thriving. And when something goes past six months, right, our coping skills have to be much different than in the acute first six months. And so what does this look like as we go into 2020? what's what's in your? What's in your COVID care package? How do you take care of employees during this and I think there's just some really, maybe fun positive things we can do to help people navigate this next stage.

Molly Burdess:

Great idea. I love the Netflix idea.

Patrick Moran:

You know, you both bring up a great point that I like us in HR, we always fix it right? Like you both have said, we always want to just be the fixers and this is our role, this is our function. But Molly, you said it best is you want to understand you want your employees to talk to you, and you're learning, mental health and some of these other things that you've experienced. And that's such a great point that you can at least understand where they're coming from, not necessarily that you have to fix it. But I think it's so key to say I can at least understand you.

Molly Burdess:

I'm reading this book, it's actually a parenting book, it's called how to how to talk to your kids will listen, I find that I can also apply it in my work life,

Celina Peerman:

a lot of carry over there. And it depends on what stage your kids are at, you'll apply those techniques differently. That's true.

Kyle Roed:

My kids aren't there yet. But if anybody can help me get a four year old to get her pants on in the morning,

Celina Peerman:

I tried to just enjoy every stage for what it's at, because I've got a 18 and 19 at the moment, and I really never understood how easy the last few years were of just trying to get this, these two into adulthood.

Molly Burdess:

Pulling out I'm curious, something that's been on my mind a lot as well. And especially I think there's a lot of HR individuals who used to do outreach to schools, and to help them with their future plans. And my heart really does go out to all of those students that have been graduating or are close to graduating during this year. Curious, just your insight on that?

Celina Peerman:

I think it's a great, it's a great question, Molly. Have we been pipeline building for a lot of years, right, but access looks different now. Visits lectures. You know, I still think, you know, even just watching in my own household, just this limitation of just not knowing there's so many diverse ways that work is available to people these days, how we help get them tuned into that. All the different pathways they've got. I think we are going to see more and more putting off secondary education. Because of this. That's where the numbers are going of what's that look like then for employers to bring people on and let them learn and get some experience and to help them find those pathways. Because pathways weren't clear prior to this, and I think they've my opinion, they've gotten even muddier of as I'm 17 1819 looking to see what does work mean? How can I find something to do that, that I can fit in for? And? And so thinking about that in the reverse, then to your question is employers how do we reach that population? And can we do it in some other way than Snapchat? what's, what are avenues to get to that population, to get in front of them so that they know so then we really as recruiters have to talk about our organization in ways that are going to appeal to that group. That group right now is being predicted as job role hoppers, not job hoppers. So our o le role hoppers, meaning they're going to want the same kind of security because some of the things on this next group coming up, they want more stability, they've seen a lot of disruption in in how they think about work. So what can we do to help them find some security in our organization, but give them rotations? give them new areas to learn, because they don't know what they don't know yet. And so thinking about that in the reverse for companies trying to go after that population pool of, here's what you can learn with us. Here's, you know, here's the the pathways, you're going to discover different things along the way. And we really have to help create even more so that pathway to what's it like to come to work?

Molly Burdess:

That was a super unclear question. Thank you for nailing exactly what I was trying to ask. Oh, are we recruiting on Snapchat? Is that a thing?

Celina Peerman:

Yes. Oh, my.

Molly Burdess:

I'm not

Celina Peerman:

toxic. Next. I knew I was old when I looked at the sign and it said, text, this number to apply for a job and I went, Oh, wow. Yeah.

Kyle Roed:

So Snapchat tik tok. If anybody hears about Twitch, that's gonna be the that's gonna be way too. That's for Yeah, twitches for like gamers. Like develop software developers, you better be advertising your show, or your positions on Twitch or

Celina Peerman:

just even that the you simulations that are happening. So I can go on to Marriott and I can pretend to be a chef and I can gain being a chef and see if I like the roles and responsibilities that hold. So these are the things that just make? Yeah. My mind go, Wow.

Kyle Roed:

I love it. But I'm a huge nerd. So you know, nerd alert, I guess. Alright, so we know we're closing in on time. And I want to be respectful of what I'm sure is an extremely busy day for you. So we're going to go through something relatively new for the podcast, the flash round. Here we go. Question number one. What are you reading right now?

Celina Peerman:

Interestingly enough, I'm reading the fearless organization on psychological safety. That's what's sitting here right now by Amy Edmondson. At my next on my list is a new book out called literally like just in the last week's human accuracy, how to be more human at work. I don't know if it's in good yet, but it came highly recommended. And I'm really intrigued by it.

Kyle Roed:

All right. You made it through more. Let's see how you do on the second one. Question number two, Who should we be listening to?

Celina Peerman:

Well, I'm really glad everybody's listening to rebel HR. It's been fun to be able to share that out. I have to admit, probably my future. My favorite podcast is Harvard Business reviews, future work. It's just my absolute favorite one and trying to think about how organizations have to evolve and change and some great topics there. And you know, I have to say I'm a little I'm a little biased. I'm learning from this amazing group right here. I'm launching January 4, and it's officially called the workplace chameleon. And so we're gonna journey this one too and see where the conversations Take this.

Kyle Roed:

I love it. I love the the workplace chameleon that's that's gonna be an exciting show. I can guarantee it so

Celina Peerman:

January 4, first episode drops

Kyle Roed:

Alright, perfect. So this This episode will be out mid November ish. So just two months. Get ready everybody. All right, last question. How can our listeners connect with you?

Celina Peerman:

Please feel free to reach out on LinkedIn and find me at Dr. Celina pyramid calm in a in a funny not so funny story. I will tell you that our website got hacked. About the same week that COVID shut down happen in middle March. About the same time my TEDx talk came out it was fantastically weird week. So the website's not completely back up to where we want it but you can always find us there I am based out of Waverly Salina at pyramid group comm if there's just a way that I can help support your listeners encourage them. They're looking for resources and tools happy just to be another, another part of this journey, so feel free to reach out.

Kyle Roed:

Thank you so much. Look at really looking forward to the podcast I can't wait to do too.

Celina Peerman:

I have enjoyed learning from all of you. And we look forward to some future conversations. We're gonna keep working on the changing world of work in that podcast and what that looks like.

Kyle Roed:

Well, thank you so much, Selena, I sincerely appreciate the time. We will put all your information in the show notes so that our listeners can connect and learn a little bit more and really great conversation today. I always take away something new when I talk to you. So thank you.

Celina Peerman:

Well, likewise, my pleasure, and I appreciate the invitation. You all take care. Stay safe.

Kyle Roed:

Thanks, you too. All right. That does it for the rebel HR podcast. big thank you to our guests. Follow us on Facebook at rebel HR podcast, Twitter, at rebel HR guy, or see our website at rebel human resources.com. Use it opinions expressed by podcast or listen to not necessarily the policy or position

Jude Roed:

baby