Episode 38: Respect the Feedback! with Tina Clements

Tina Clements: 0:00

Feedback is a gift. It's not a treasure that you want to bury. It is a gift without it we get I equate feedback to swimming, swim race, where when you're swimming, your head is down in the water, you're doing your thing, you're churning it out, you're focusing on the process. But every once in a while you head up to see the land. And I did swim a race once and then got out of the water and thought I won. But apparently I was swimming a race. No one else was swimming because I was on the land. But the final at the end of the race was two meters in the other direction because I stopped I didn't pick up my head, you have to head up and if you are not giving your personnel, your spouse, your partner, your brother, whomever it is, feedback, they are not getting the ability to hit up. It's a gift it really is.

Kyle Roed: 0:47

This is the rebel HR podcast. If you're professional looking for innovative, thought provoking information in the world of Human Resources. This is the right podcast for you. revelon Hr rebels. All right rebel HR listeners, I am extremely excited to introduce you today to Tina Clements. Tina is a high energy hands on keynote speaker, author coach facilitator. I'm sure there's a number of other job titles behind there. She's an entrepreneur.com, contributor and successful leader. She has a number of years of experience in different industries and organizations 10 plus years with BMW in North America, been in the learning and development industry. She's held leadership positions such as Vice President, operations manager and training manager. Welcome to the show, Tina.

Tina Clements: 1:41

Thank you, Kyle. And Molly. It's such an honor to be here.

Kyle Roed: 1:45

We are pumped to have you and really excited for the topic today. I was just complaining about this right before we hit record. So we are going to be talking all about feedback and respect.

Tina Clements: 2:00

Excellent. I'm jumping in for a second.

Kyle Roed: 2:04

You know what, that's all HR. That's that is 2020 and early 2021. In a nutshell, just jump into the deep end and hope you don't drown,

Tina Clements: 2:12

or any other way to get into HR then just jumping in with both feet at the deepest of the deep end. Yeah.

Kyle Roed: 2:20

I'm with you. And I don't know if there's any I honestly don't know if there's any other way you really learn it.

Tina Clements: 2:25

I it's speaking personally that's how I learned it. Hi, welcome aboard. The handshake was still in motion. And I had a pen and a terminate a severance package to review and what is How do you spell severance? I'm so so yes.

Kyle Roed: 2:41

Like, wait a minute, is this legal? Like, am I supposed to do this? Is this right?

Molly Burdess: 2:47

Let me Google it.

Tina Clements: 2:48

Let's figure it out. Yeah. Oh, good. You did that too. Okay. Yeah. Good. Good. Thank you for the validation.

Kyle Roed: 2:55

Yeah, thank you. Thank you, Molly. And you know, for all you HR people out there. It's not it's not anything to be ashamed about to have to Google something. Because a lot of us never actually learned this stuff in school. I don't I mean, it didn't exist. For me. It wasn't an option.

Tina Clements: 3:12

It certainly was an option. Right, Molly, I made the quick story. I had a gentleman come to clean my fireplace, we got to talking his son is a senior getting his degree in human resources. So immediately, I said, Okay, great job with the fireplace. I need your son's phone number. Hey, he's a male in the industry, which is, and he's going to school for it. I'm sorry. What did you say Mr. unicorn? Come and intern for me, please. Right now, this is great. Because so many people don't it's not their drive to wind up. Maybe that's the right language, right gang to wind up in human resources. Molly, I'm sorry. What were you gonna say? I've talked right over, you

Molly Burdess: 3:54

know, this is all about use. You're supposed to talk over me. But I actually went to school for HR and still I mean, you don't there's no way to learn it all because every situation is different. And I think you need to have the foundation of like, okay, here's, here's what's right. Here's what's wrong. Here's how I can't handle this. Here's a strategy for handling this. But then it's really just about the finesse, and the people side of it, which not all people have, right,

Tina Clements: 4:20

right. It's the art of not

Kyle Roed: 4:23

right, you got it. Molly. Nobody has ever used the word finesse to describe me. So I am failing at that I can guarantee but you do have a finesse. I'm going to give you that you have a way you have a very, very wonderful way that you articulate things that need to be said.

Molly Burdess: 4:43

Thank you, but I believe that to be true about you as well.

Kyle Roed: 4:46

Whatever. Alright, so

Tina Clements: 4:48

Gentlemen, welcome to the love fest.

Kyle Roed: 4:53

You know what the way this week's going I'll take it I'll take whatever positive feedback I can get between between trying to figure out vaccine rollouts and quarantine in one part of the world and all sorts of crazy stuff so we'll take it we'll take it so so we started going this path and i'm really curious how did you find your calling how did you end up where you are and what in your career led you there

Tina Clements: 5:20

my mother told me to get a degree in communications as i was sitting out filling out my college applications and said what do i what should my major be so she sent me on the path of communications and from there i fell into l&d and training at a really so that about 2526 years ago when i didn't even know the education and development of an adult was a thing when way back then when i was a kid back in the day and from there so i worked my way up in l&d within l&d for years and ended up at bmw of north america and there was a performance management role open in human resources and someone luckily tapped me and said you'd be great and i said you'd be crazy i don't what do you i don't know anything about i can't spell hr so what do you think and it was the best leap i ever ever made it was terrifying and i was horrible and i was reactive and i was a super failure in the beginning but thank god for the experience because it shifted my complete approach to everything that i do going forward and that it actually affected me as an instructor as a facilitator as a content developer because of everything learn within hr so from there they bmw said you know tina we're gonna start this new company called the retail performance company it's a consultancy with a senior level of expertise with training and coaching and human resources are you interested and i said let me think about the question was still in the air when i went yes yes that would be great and that was eight years ago so i got to use all that experience and turn it into quite frankly something much bigger where we can help organizations across the nation very cool

Kyle Roed: 7:06

very cool very cool i don't know about you but i feel like the hr as challenging as hr can be when you get into it and you start to you know kind of stumble your way into it and learn it is also fundamental and foundational to so many other jobs it's so transferable and if you can if you can figure out hr you can figure out about damn well anything yeah

Tina Clements: 7:32

i completely concur and i've said it every day and twice on sunday if it wasn't for my hr experience there's no way that the entrepreneurship that we started he would be successful there's absolutely no way i thank god every single day for that for that experience the rest of it is coming it's it's sales and marketing and and product placement and all the things that go along with starting but without that fundamental people skill i don't know if he would have pulled it off so challenging but good lessons to learn right

Kyle Roed: 8:03

absolutely so you know so have you always had the entrepreneurial mindset or is that something that developed in you throughout your career

Tina Clements: 8:11

probably somewhere down deep subtly you know selling something to the kids on the street and one day it was my dad i put my resume together right when i was trying to become a babysitter and that kind of thing so there was always that subtle down deep because but for years i had the security of an organization and when they asked me to take this leap i truly did not think twice about it i regretted it within minutes because of how literally because it was terrifying absolutely terrifying and i fell into all of the and this is another show but all of the victim noise and the inner critic and the self speak that just said you're too what are we thinking you're too stupid and all the things however it was the coaching element that i leaned on that which is a part of human resources and the pool of talent that i could lean on to support me that helped me yank yank myself out of that to then engage and shift my perspective and move forward because it was a it was a hard road it was a really hard work

Kyle Roed: 9:16

yeah i can imagine and i just feel like you know i'm kind of in that i'm kind of in that mode right now you know to be honest i feel like you know i get to i get to stretch my entrepreneurial muscles a little bit through my w two job but you know i there's there's a lot of fear there right like taking the leap and go and be in and it's you

Tina Clements: 9:40

right and it's all that's exactly you you make it's a domino there was a lot of that my friend just picture of kyle me looking at a blank wall what do you think well i think it's a great idea what do you think i think it's a great idea let's give it a shot and it that the fear that fine line is just one second Between fear and courage, right? And just just you kind of don't have a choice I to learn that the hard way. The difference between now and eight years ago, is now I know what that failure ultimately helps you find the success. That's all. There's no such thing as a mistake, just discoveries. So we need but we need to make them and learn from each other because we can't make them all by ourselves. Right? So that's why it's good to share our learnings and our discoveries and our and our failures and all that. But it's, it's terrifying. It's terrifying, because you don't want to who wants to fail? And that's really what the loudest voice in your head is all about. It's, if you do this, you will probably fail. Well, I do it anyway. But I do everything. And it's it's it again, I in the beginning, I did not take that advice. Well. And now once you do it once, and you realize, you know what, I didn't die. Okay, I lost money. That's typically what the mistake is when you starting a company, right? Wow, I lost money. How significant was that last boss? Sorry about that. Right? And it's it. That's a risk, however, okay, what did we learn from that? So sometimes it's a, it's a small cost of doing business and helps you get through to the next risk. And the next one, and the next failure and the next failure

Molly Burdess: 11:14

becomes a dance. Someone once told me, you can always make more money, or money will always come? What was going through your journey? What was your most impactful failure that you had already made?

Tina Clements: 11:27

Definitely back to when I started RPC here in the United States. It my failure was my own voice was my own choice. Truly, it was I truly believed that I was too stupid to do this. And I could not do it. And everything was stacked against me against me. And what happened to me is to protect myself from that failure, is I started to live in the blame game. Well, my, my team in Germany didn't give me any resources nor knowledge, the product is unstable. The market is too saturated, bad, blah, blah, blah, works. It's all excuse, excuse excuse. And I did that for too long. And again, thank goodness, I had people around me who were senior coaches, that's our that's what we do. And I ultimately leaned into them. It took time, though, for me to do that. Because it was, again, I was feeling more safe in the victim mentality than I was to shift my perspective. So then after a while it Bennett then I shifted from there. But that to me, that was, and again, I thank God for the failure. Because without it, we wouldn't be here, I wouldn't know what that feels like and to know that you can survive this, you can survive that you can, how hard is this new thing that's happening right now? Right? So it's, I get through that shift much more swiftly. But without question, that was, that was a good one. That was a good failure, my friend.

Kyle Roed: 12:56

So so I want to shift gears, because I think this topic actually is really pertinent to what we're going to be talking about today, which is, which is feedback. And, you know, feedback has, it's it's one of those buzzwords that I think about, like it's just like opportunity. You know, it's like you hear that word, and you're like, Oh, that's, that's a euphemism for you screwed up, or you did something bad or you failed. And so you know, I, I hear that. But feedbacks also really, really critical. And if it's not given, you're going to fail even worse. Right? So so so just tell me a little bit about your approach to giving feedback and getting a an employee or a peer or a partner feedback that doesn't put them in that automatic like, fight or flight kind of fear mode, right?

Tina Clements: 13:52

And that's the that's the critical piece, right is to its respect, feedback is a gift. It's not a treasure that you want to bury. It is a gift without it we can I equate feedback to swimming, swim race, where when you're swimming, your head is down in the water, you're doing your thing, you're churning it out, you're focusing on the process. But every once in a while you head up to see the land and I did swim race once and then got out of the water and thought I won. But apparently I was swimming a race. No one else was swimming because I was on the land. But the final at the end of the race was two meters in the other direction because I stopped I didn't pick up my head, you have to head up and if you are not giving your personnel, your spouse, your partner, your brother, whomever it is, feedback, they are not getting the ability to head up. It's a gift. It really is. And, you know, to you you mentioned something, Kyle, that's really important. It's not negative, it's it can be constructive. Sometimes it's good. Sometimes it's positive, and we need that your people need that, even more than the constructive sometimes and during this This new wonderful remote environment, we're not doing it. We're just we're forgetting we're neglecting. We aren't even doing it for ourselves, right? Which can again, that's a new podcast, the mental health and well being and psychology of the human around us. But in this environment, it's more critical than ever to, to actually do it. And when when you talked about how do you do it to not get the fight or flight? It's not easy, because it takes thought, and it takes commitment to do it. And you have to first of all, you have to do it. Right, especially when you're remote. Hey, Kyle, got a minute to talk. Okay, great. You want to do it on zoom? Want to do it on teams? Let's go ahead. And let's do it now. And this has to be in the moment. So Kyle, how did you think how do you think that went? Whatever the experience was right? engaged, the other person don't come out and say, Well, I have feedback for you. You did this wrong. Right? I bet the both of you have experienced this, I would probably you both experienced it for you. And my I would say Raise your hand. But I think people are listening. So I'll just tell you three, let's just say Hands up. Hello, fans, my my, my the honestly, the majority of my career, I've gotten the constructive feedback never really gotten the posit, you, you know it's there. But it's just right. So that's it's kind of the norm. So to start out with any feedback, it's got a minute as the person so how do you think that went? Hopefully it's immediate, right? It's like when a dog poops on the rug, we don't wait till the next day to read rectorship perspective around them. And that habit can say, Okay, well, I've noticed that and you always when you give feedback, start with I anytime Well, I've heard or they said now, sorry, they're gone. And now what what is the conversation going to be about the conversation will be about Who said that? And when was said and what? And that's it's about the thing, it's about the topic at hand, I've noticed that this is happening. Listen, Molly, the reason I'm bringing this to your attention is because I know you could be amazing here at this firm. I see it in you all the time. What's blocking you is the fact that you're late all the time. And people are noticing that and I don't want to or the fact that so your work is late every single day, whatever the thing is, it's you you speak to the thing, after the why, Listen, I've noticed this happen. Here's why I'm telling you this because I care about men, I think that the expectation setting piece of any communication is missing all the time. It just we forget the why we forget that this is why I'm asking you and fill in the blank, whatever, whatever the reason is, and then you go ahead and tell them and then the next part is, so what do you think we could do about this? So once again, I'm not saying to you, you need to now get here earlier, but what do you think we can do? Well, Boss, I think what we could do is maybe I could set my alarm earlier. You know, I this is where we could have so much fun to walk down in conversation. Okay, great. Do you think you can do that? Then you agree? What's your timeline and you move on? I make it sound like it's the easiest thing in the world, right? Just Oh, just follow these steps. It's so delicious, really hard. Because you've got humans involved and emotions. And no matter how well you say the words and you articulate your thoughts, and respectful you are, there's a chance that person might react and it has nothing to do with you. It has everything to do with their voice. Well, now I'm I might lose my job. I'm so stupid. I shouldn't work here. I'm too old. I'm too whatever the thing is, and that's okay. Let them okay. So how are you feeling right now? Let them work through that piece of it. Don't be afraid of it lean into it. Again. So is it for me to say Ross is great. It took me years. It took me absolutely years. I mean, again, I jumped in that deep end was handling these conversations. The first time I ever gave feedback as an HR performance person. It took me six hours. Can you believe this? Six hours with the same person and I look back now at the end. I was what do I have next? What what's the topic of conference? Okay, let's go. Let's bring it right. But because you're so engaged and you think it's about you and how can I fix you know, it's quick. This is what it is? What do you think so can you do it and then move on? That was a huge ramble gang. I'm not sure that I could did I use up all of our time I love you both.

Kyle Roed: 19:22

Okay, we'll see you guys next week.

Tina Clements: 19:24

Bye. Thanks for playing.

Molly Burdess: 19:26

I keep going back to when you first said you know you should be giving feedback to your spouse. And I would completely agree with funny story. I went home to my husband this was like a year ago and I said honey, I really think we should start doing like performance evaluations on each other. Maybe ever like six months. And he did not like that idea. I thought it was brilliant. But he was not on board. The

Tina Clements: 19:51

I you cannot coaching don't coach your significant other or your best friend or your paints. Nope. Want lot can he's and you're still together thanks to him we

Molly Burdess: 20:05

don't do that hr stuff for me i don't need your feedback yeah anyway what i was gonna ask is what we were kind of talking about earlier is that victim mentality i think a lot of people we give feedback that's where they go that it's not my fault it's it and they make excuses how do you overcome that when you are giving that feedback do you just call it for what it is what advice do you have calling it for what

Tina Clements: 20:29

it is you could do that what's the consequence of that however right so it's in my experience people go to the victim mode quite a few quite a lot and again stop for a second it's nothing to do with me there in the blade let them spiral it's the equivalent of when we teach sales consultants in the automotive industry when you have a client that walks when you have customer who walks in the door and they just take them off the floor and let them go and let them say their words because usually what happens is and they stop and they recognize for themselves what's really going on and then from there you ask the question so what's really going on for you now this you have to deploy some some coaching techniques here which really is just a fancy way of saying you have to ask questions we as a human society love to fix we want to have all the answers when they say something we feel like we're supposed to say something this is the time to ask the questions and get them to figure it out people believe their own data they're not inclined to believe you so ask them the questions to get themselves to really come up with a story and the question is google coaching questions really there's some phenomenal eight very simple questions what so tell me what you're most afraid of it really said that we have never been trained to ask i certainly wasn't in hr being onboard it wasn't part of the script right i learned that on my own and that is really in my experience the most successful way to navigate through that fight that fight mode to get in again you're in charge of your destiny do you want to be successful okay great so help me understand how to get you there i will support you 100% but we need to come up with a path what do you think that makes

Kyle Roed: 22:18

so much sense yeah and i think it's you know it's you look at the studies on leadership and you look at like the difference between like the the successful executive leaders and those that struggle and a lot of times you'll find that common thread that the successful ones ask a lot of really thoughtful questions and they asked the right questions at the right time but they're not a you know a dictator with all the right answers right there helping people discover the right answers within themselves like it's a point very well taken

Molly Burdess: 22:53

one thing i am focusing on i'm putting together a presentation for my management team and i'm curious on your guys's feedback because you had said something earlier about self doubt and how that can impact feedback well the question i'm going to pose to my team is regarding stereotypes and performance at work so how can stereotypes impact individuals performance at work so what are your guys's take on that

Tina Clements: 23:20

wow well that's our third podcast that now we could do together right because now you're getting into the the microaggressions and they you know but biases and whatnot and it's funny we do teach a one hour quick just on four different unconscious bias the beauty bias etc etc just to educate and i can't tell you how it's if there are 10 people in the class 10 people have the a has myself included i thought that i was giving feedback with no biases and because i oh i knew so much it's when you really allow yourself to dive deep and and and put the mirror up to yourself we all that we all have them we all and we have to number one check ourselves actually well you bring up a really critical point before you get feedback at all ask yourself this question why why am i giving feedback and why am i giving it right now if there's an iota of selfishness in there and sometimes people do i've done it i'm going to tell you i'm gonna admit it and the second it's been done i went oh my god and that might be the fourth podcast because that was a whole that is another failure i would say in that particular case that came right to my head right so check yourself and molly it's a big it's a really big topic you know the entire dibs diversity inclusion inclusion biases right all of this topic is massive and i think it's so great that we're even having the conversation to bring just that that opening door of awareness and if you can have that before you before you start that i think the restful it's not saying you might not go or make a little mistake or flip but you're Be aware of it, which will just make you stronger for the next one was a really important question.

Molly Burdess: 25:04

Yeah, I agree. It's an important topic. So I'm excited to dive into it with my team.

Tina Clements: 25:09

Yeah, that's exciting. I could, if you, I will help you, and just dive in there with you. Because again, I'm an HR nerd, as you know. So this will be how sad is it that that's what I would do on a Saturday afternoon.

Molly Burdess: 25:25

I hope you have a cocktail on hand when you're doing that on a Saturday afternoon. If you

Tina Clements: 25:29

make it mandatory, then you'll have to Yes. Okay.

Kyle Roed: 25:33

Yeah, considering like the free time like I spend my free time on social media, but I'm not like, you know, commenting on whatever. I'm like talking to other HR people on HR, Twitter. And we're like going back and forth on what do you do on this performance management system? And you know, what, you know, what do you get? How was your week? It's just like, yeah, we were, yeah, bunch of HR nerds. But that's okay, this is a safe place. You found you found other HR nerds we do exist as part of the tribe. So I want to go back to I want to go back to a comment that she made and explore this topic a little bit more. And it's the challenge of knowing when is it appropriate to give the dreaded word feedback. So so it what point is it not about you, and it is truly about them? And how do you how do you spot that?

Tina Clements: 26:23

You know, I guess on some level, it's always about us, right? Because if we're giving the good feedback, and that employee in this case, is elevating, then we can benefit benefit from that as well. Right? I guess when you ask the question, when you answer the question, there's no value for me if I give this feedback right now, except that that employee can grow and be wonderful. Sometimes they leave us because they become so good. So actually, it works against you sometimes to give this great feedback. But I think that's the time to do it. When somebody when you catch somebody doing something, right, which is that it's common, I'm sure we've heard before, that's the time to pick up the phone and give the beat takes two minutes, sometimes one and a little bit longer if it's in this remote setting, because then you have to set it up and get on the get on the video cam and to say, Hey, brother, I just wanted you to know that was that was well that whatever it is, we don't do it because it takes time. And we're not seeing each other as much. So every time somebody does something, right. When there's there's two times that mandatorily if somebody is doing something that is well, first of all, if it's illegal or something, then that is a whole different with immediacy, right? And what is that our fifth podcast, I think. But if you see something that is getting in somebody's way, now, and it's I don't want to use the word egregious, but if it's really blocking them from success, and I'll be honest with you, it was in my recent case, somebody is just using wrong grammar. And it was she speaking, she was speaking with consistency in front of a group. And so I pulled her aside. And it was that was a rough one. Because she was taught to say it a certain way. And it was just people saw it. And as I turn off my Echo Dot because nobody needs to hear what package has been delivered, right? But But in that, right? So in that case, she definitely got defensive, and there was definitely but it had it again, that everything to do with her it was it needed to be done, because I did not want her to keep going down the path and being perceived a certain way. So that's where that was another long winded answer to your question, Kyle, but it's right away, right away. And again, if as long as there's nothing, you're not getting more out of it, then the other person, if that makes if that makes any sense.

Kyle Roed: 28:45

Yeah, but and in that context of the individual who was using the wrong grammar, had you not given them that feedback, their credibility would have continued to have been eroded, right, and potentially the credibility of you and your brand and the in the event and, you know, it seems like such a little thing, but it can snowball. And I can't tell you how many times and I think most HR professionals have probably had this experience. I've brought somebody into my office and I've given them given them some feedback on their perception how people are perceiving their reactions to something or they're, you know, they're perceived as a barrier to change or something along those lines. And they're like, what, like, are you serious, like hat? Like, that's how I'm coming across. I have no idea. I thought I was like, you know, Mr. innovator, and you're telling me that I'm like resistant to change. That's what people think. And that's, and it's but, you know, not doing that in the moment is like it's creating a bigger wound in my opinion. Yes. And then you know, fixing it right then and there. So

Tina Clements: 29:54

it's I did exactly that. for the right reason with that, with that. appear actually is a competitor. At another consultancy, he and I were asked to lead something together. And when he was speaking, he was angry and in the crowds face and a little bit belligerent. And so later that night, I called him. And I said, Yo, I want a little feedback. I did check myself because I went, he's a competitor. And this and I really, it's honestly, there was some selfishness there, because we were together. So there was that, but also, I did want to help them. And he was not he did not handle it the way your colleague did. Kyle, when you gave that feedback, he was he was belligerent and angry and on my face. And I'll be honest with you, we didn't talk for a long time, we just recently reconnected and it was, it happens, it happens, but I did it for the right reasons. I did it respectfully, and that sometimes, that's it walked away, right? He walked away, ultimately, he is no longer with that organization isn't that interesting, which is a reason that we actually reconnected. So it's, it's, it's, it is it needs to be done. And for those of us HR nerds who take pride in it and know how advantageous it is and know that we're, it's coming from the right place, it's almost our obligation to give it maybe I'm making an excuse for giving it to that colleague at that time. But really, that's it. That's really that's really what's going on when you're getting feedback.

Molly Burdess: 31:25

This whole remote work has shifted me a little bit and trying to figure out my new ways of giving feedback. And you're right, I absolutely find myself waiting, like, okay, I saw this, but I want to do this in person, or I definitely want to do this not on a phone call. And then I find myself waiting for weeks or not weeks for probably a week until my next meeting with them. And I don't think that's the best thing to do. I have definitely noticed that.

Tina Clements: 31:53

You're doing it though. So that's great. I mean, really take give yourself credit for that. And they're feeling it. And it's because it's hard. You're busy, too. You have things to do, right? We all do. So it's something you hate to say it but you have to schedule it. It's got to be on the calendar from 1115 to 1130. I'm going to call two people and tell them what a great job they're doing. It's, it's it sounds challenging in that regard. But then we know that we're going to get it done. So I appreciate that that

Molly Burdess: 32:20

feedback you just gave me You're good.

Kyle Roed: 32:26

The Jedi mind trick Molly?

Molly Burdess: 32:28

Yeah.

Kyle Roed: 32:31

So So I'm curious maybe to explore that maybe a little bit more tactically in the in the new normal that we're in now. So I'm just gonna ask selfishly because I do this. And I want to know if that's if this is okay. So, you know, we've got all these, like, we've got these texting, and like, you know, slack or, you know, Microsoft Teams, you can chat with people to hold, you know, the whole time while you're on a when you're on a call, or you're talking. And so one of the things I try to do is like, if I know, if I see somebody struggling, and they're working through a topic, but I think they're going in the right direction, but somebody is giving them like, you know, the all the reasons why it won't work, or why this is a stupid idea or whatever, you know, I'll ping them. And I'll be like, Hey, I'm with you. Or, you know, I think you're going to keep keep keep driving that you're going the right direction, like like things like that is is that as effective? As you know, the more traditional circling back after a meeting and having a, you know, a conversation, is it? Is it okay? To use a less personal form of feedback? What's your opinion on that?

Tina Clements: 33:33

Yes. That was my German answer. Yes, period. The truth is, any feedback is accepted in an environment where we're hardly getting any. And if you're paying somebody through that, that's fine. And as so much of our society is, is communicating this way anyway, so with speed, it's immediate. And you can get to the person, especially if you're doing this whole grand zoom call thing, or teams or whatever it is, you you don't always want to call the person out live in front of everyone else. I have two particular employees who are incredibly shy, one who has said to me on multiple occasions, do you really need to see me on on the camera when we did you know, it's really painfully shy. So to call them out, even with the Most Gracious thank, they wouldn't have it? So the direct answer is yes. The question I have for you is how do you handle the person who's who's being the victim in that case and being negative towards your colleagues that you're that you are complementing? And the one that's saying, hey, especially if it's live in front of everyone else, how do you how do you even approach that person?

Kyle Roed: 34:45

It depends. The answer the honest answer is it depends. Depends on the end the topic and the level of Yeah, I wouldn't I don't think I would use the word belligerent, but the scenario I'm thinking through is a an individual who had criticisms on the path that we were going or didn't like a process change that had occurred and felt that communication was not, was not as rich as it should have been, I guess is how I would describe it. So. So I don't think that any of the feedback was inappropriate or delivered in an inappropriate way. You know, my approach, my approach was more to support the individual who, who was concerned, they were doing something the wrong way. And then I kind of working on that one, I kind of worked more in the background and circled back with the individual. The individual parties who had the initial complaint, because it was like feedback from a free feedback from somebody who had feedback, who had feedback, you know, like, it's one of these was a senior meeting and, you know, somebody is hearing something on the street, basically. So, you know, my approach was, as opposed to going and trying to, you know, find the copper I just tried to root cause Okay, who's Where is this coming from? And is there actually an issue? Well, it turns out,

Tina Clements: 35:55

it wasn't right, it

Kyle Roed: 35:56

was just a process is a process flow that needed to, we need to add one more person into the communication chain. Right. So we actually figured out the issue.

Tina Clements: 36:05

You might Giuliani that, in other words,

Kyle Roed: 36:08

I don't know, I don't know if I want to be Rudy Giuliani,

Tina Clements: 36:11

you know what it's, it's, I probably should stop using this reference, that's for sure. During 911, one of the things that that Rudy did was was before taking any action every day, I mean, writing them right when it was it's most in the beginning. He would stop his team in the morning and come together, and why is that? What's going on and do and really get to the root cause? When people were like, why are you having this? Just go? Why aren't you moving? This is a crisis. Because he was he knew we had to stop and dissect first and hit one of his most famous stories. In the movie, there's a, there's a, an actual movie that was made about him years ago, I think, 1517 years or something like that. And he was in his office on whatever floor, and something wasn't getting from A to B. And he himself navigated all the way down to the basement where there were two women sitting back to back to each other, who hated each other. And one wouldn't give the paperwork to the other one. So everything was but he himself got to the root cause before taking action and whatnot. But this will be the last time I bring it up. This is an example.

Kyle Roed: 37:16

A great example. It's a great example. I see, you're referring to like, you know, just for men gone wrong type of a thing or not. No, I don't I don't know. You know, it could go anyway. Is it 2020 was a weird year.

Tina Clements: 37:28

Yes, exactly. As was that analogy, but anyway, that's the word I'm looking for right now. So anyway, Molly, back to you.

Kyle Roed: 37:38

Guys, well, you got to keep us on track here. I think Tina and I are we're both kites. And you got to be the string to hold us both down?

Molly Burdess: 37:45

No, I'm with you. But kind of why I'm curious. Because if I was in that, that person shoes, and I would have got that text from me or whatever that ping, it would help my confidence. But why not speak up in front of everybody about that?

Kyle Roed: 38:00

You know, because I don't think that the I don't think that the feedback was wrong. And I don't think it was, I don't think it was inappropriate for that person to get that feedback. But I wanted them to know that I don't feel like they should take it, as it's, you know, in a negative manner, I guess is in so that so they got a richer perspective of the audience's view, if you will, so, and, you know, my, my approach, you know, I'm a little bit I'm a little bit hands off, because I like to let I like to let the discomfort settle a little bit. So people can actually internalize what's what people are saying, before I like shut because I don't want to shut down that type of conversation or feedback, either, because there was actually feedback, you know, in the meeting, so had I piped up might have made everybody shut up and you know, not actually figure it out.

Tina Clements: 38:49

Molly, you bring up a really good point, if you want to even go a slice deeper. Could you Kyle have called that person afterwards and said so how do you think that went? And hat and then open the dialogue is my favorite questions? How do you think that went? Or Hey, what's going on for you? Just that's it and just leave that open ended question sitting out there and see where that person took you. And then diagnose a little bit from and get that person to realize why you did what you did. And so how do you feel now about the input? Yeah, it had nothing to do with the way that person was giving the feedback had everything to do with the emotion behind it and the the the desire to to x y Zed right, so just just a thought that that could have been a feedback giving moment. Somali that's a good that's a good call out.

Kyle Roed: 39:39

Yeah. Yeah, like you're way better. No. That's good. But but it's, I do think it's a great example of, you know, maybe not knowing exactly when the right time to give feedback can be in every every interaction so fast. Right. And it it's so easy to sit there and think man i should have done this should have said that i missed my window so is it is it ever too late to open that window and provide it

Tina Clements: 40:11

that's that's a challenge isn't it because if it has been too long then you have to be prepared for the why are you just telling me this now and then come back you're right and i apologize because that's on you at this point so i cannot think of a circumstance that wouldn't bring a benefit later no matter what the it is right now i'm sure at two o'clock in the morning we'll come up with with the thing but regardless of when i would want to hear the feedback you know what i think i'm answering my question by processing outwardly if it's too late to do anything about it and if there's if no good could come from it and again i can't think of a specific example but if there's something going on that i literally have no control over to change and i can't change my behavior for a future something then why going to hurt me all that does is bring me pain and and regret in that i can't even go back right so that being said i think that would be the only in my opinion that would be the only thing i could think of and can't think of an example

Molly Burdess: 41:16

i have an opinion you guys tell me if you think i'm wrong but i personally think it is too late to give feedback if you wait until its annual review time you type that feedback in an annual review it impacts your scored impacts your merit increase i don't know as a leader i would feel good about that if that was the first time they were hearing that

Tina Clements: 41:41

so kyle your question had two different meanings you tricky thing you because right because i didn't interpret the question that molly you are so accurate that is that that means that you but you could have in the model whenever along the path and you just because again we as hr geeks know that feedback should be immediately immediate and constant and all the things leaders aren't taught right there's no unfortunately the up until recently in the past certain amount of decades there were middle leadership schools you know when leaders were going going up the ranks and they were only getting feedback once a year so they thought that's how you do it you get feedback once a year and we have to break that and re educate and what you just said is is key and the big sentence over that is no one should be surprised at during their performance their annual performance review when you walk in you should know what your score is what the feedback is going to be you've been working on it already and it should be swift and a handshake and thanks very much in a mouth right so really

Molly Burdess: 42:48

good gregory i always tell my leaders if if an associate is surprised that their annual review at a write up or termination you did not do your job well enough

Kyle Roed: 42:58

yep excellent advice so smart oh so we're gonna bring it full circle here oh because that is a way to give feedback without respect right that's not respectful for for the person who's sitting on the other end with you know bills and obligations and maybe a family too to take care have to sit there and not know that and not have the opportunity to modify what they're doing in order to fulfill your expectations right that's just a jerk move

Tina Clements: 43:32

yeah i love you guys yeah and you know what it's a joke coming from fear because i truly believe leaders don't give the feedback because they're afraid they're afraid of that because of the comp the potential conflict and they don't want to hurt the other person so they just don't give that constructive feedback that ultimately can help because they don't they're friends or they want to be seen as the friend or they are whatever their motivation is so they're they think they're doing it for the right reasons but they're a jerk they ultimately come off like a jerk

Molly Burdess: 44:03

yeah when they when they don't get the day to day little feedback it builds up and then all of a sudden that this person has to go they're really impacting business and that's not the right way to handle it

Tina Clements: 44:14

you got it

Kyle Roed: 44:16

i guarantee you there's so many hr people listen to this right now and they've had that person just just pissed and just pounding you could hear the feet coming down the hallway to your office the door opens up and so burst to air and it's like this person's got to go

Tina Clements: 44:33

yeah

Kyle Roed: 44:34

the first question is always oh what feedback have you given

Tina Clements: 44:37

yeah yes and been given average meeting expectations you look around and go okay what shall we do next

Kyle Roed: 44:49

my favorite question in that moment is help me understand yeah oh good i understand why this why did this happen why is this happening right now what happened

Tina Clements: 45:00

I remember the deep end that I that I spoke up. That was my deep end, it was the barrage of handle this fire this person let this person go and me saying to everyone, but you can put their beautiful on paper. Hello, how what we're Yeah. Hmm. excellent example.

Kyle Roed: 45:17

So we had a great guest here a few weeks back named Liz kislak. And and she used a great term and I think it was so so right on and, you know, her comment was you broke them. They were great on paper, they probably came in with a wonderful, you know, attitude ready to go, ready to ready to change the world and the organization broken, right. And when you own that,

Tina Clements: 45:40

I'm gonna write that down list right now. That really it's it's what an eloquent yet direct way to teach a leader. So whose responsibility is that this person was your responsibility. They came in with an A plus grade, and they're leaving with the day. So that's why

Molly Burdess: 45:57

I strongly believe that most people coming into an organization don't want to just screw things up or fail. I 100% agree with that, Kyle.

Kyle Roed: 46:08

All right. Oh, my gosh, what a What a fun conversation. We could just keep going. I need to go get a drink or something and you know, conversate but we are we are running out of time. And so I want to shift gears into the rebel HR flash round. So get ready, Tina, here we go. Okay. All right. Question number one. What are you reading right now?

Tina Clements: 46:27

The Oh, I'm Beat Cop two top cop my 99 year old retired cop from the Bronx grandfather recommended this book written by john Timoney. So far, so amazing. And yeah, all even though the words human resources are not in the book, they are everywhere in the book. So

Kyle Roed: 46:51

that's interest. I'm sure that's an interesting context in the words you're in,

Tina Clements: 46:55

especially knowing my grandfather, who is again, almost 100 years old. So as a police officer in New York for a long time. It's it's just it's very interesting book. We'll leave it at that.

Kyle Roed: 47:07

I bet. I bet. I bet he's got a few stories. Couple. Yes. You just feel some podcast time?

Tina Clements: 47:13

Yeah, I would say so. Yeah, for sure. For sure.

Kyle Roed: 47:17

All right. Question number two, Who should we be listening to?

Tina Clements: 47:22

The honestly right now, who I'm listening to, again, is Earl Nightingale, and, you know, all of the stuff that's out there, and rightfully so it gets recreated. So if you haven't listened to Earl Nightingale and the Strangest Secret, then my high recommendation is get on that immediately.

Kyle Roed: 47:40

Awesome.

Tina Clements: 47:40

Awesome. Carole King, Carole King. Also, that would be us always on in the background. Yeah.

Kyle Roed: 47:45

There you go. Yeah. Yeah, my house is more along the lines of like, frozen to soundtrack or trolls to what you know, the Book of Life is their new favorite. It was on Netflix. And now it's the thing so yeah. Alright, let's last question. How can our listeners connect with you

Tina Clements: 48:05

via our website, RPC america.com, or directly with me, Tina Clements at RPC dash partners.com. I would love to hear from anyone and everyone. That'd be great.

Kyle Roed: 48:18

Awesome. And we will have that information in the show notes. And I would be remiss if I didn't also, at least give you a little bit of a plug here. So she also has a book out on Amazon, the art of facilitation communicate. So they remember by Tina Frey Clements. So, Tina, thank you so much. It was so wonderful to have you on the show here. today. We covered some some great, great topics and really, really helpful advice. So thank you so much.

Tina Clements: 48:47

Thanks to you both. This is really an honor. I appreciate you having me.

Kyle Roed: 48:51

Thank you. All right. That does it for the rebel HR podcast. big thank you to our guests. Follow us on Facebook at rebel HR podcast, Twitter, at rebel HR guy, or see our website at rebel a human resources.com using opinions expressed by podcast policies or positions. Maybe