50th Episode: 1 Year of Rebel HR!

Kyle Roed: 0:00

I think one of the things that became more and more apparent to me was that a lot of people think in the term of black and white, which I think is a really big risk to any organization. If you get people who are too dogmatic about a certain thing, that's not healthy. This is the rebel HR podcast, the podcast where we talk to human resources, innovators, about innovation in the world of HR, if you're a people leader, or you're looking for a new way to think about how to help others be successful. This is the podcast for you. Rebel on HR rebels. All right, revelator. our listeners, this is our 50th recording that we have done. We just went over one year anniversary in the podcast. So and this is the first time that Patrick Molly and myself are sitting in the same room doing the podcast. So cheers to you, my wonderful co host, Mary open can open up there already. Molly literally has three drinks in front of her right now. Most of you want to come prepared. You know, there's anything we learned this past year, you can't really prepare for what we have in front of us in HR.

Patrick Moran: 1:22

Know, he can adapt and be nimble. Yeah.

Kyle Roed: 1:26

Yeah, one year later. So we started this thing we were talking about COVID not knowing if there was going to be a vaccine, then we had a vaccine. Now we're talking about going back to the office or not. So yeah, wild times. Good times.

Molly Burdess: 1:41

Good times, for sure. And, Kyle, you've done a lot for this podcast. You are the brains behind all of it. So this is really cheers to you.

Kyle Roed: 1:52

Well, thank you very much. For me, the the best part of doing this podcast has just been meeting all the wonderful guests, and getting to explore some of these topics that, you know, get so busy day to day, it's hard to remember like, Oh, yeah, why are we here? We're here to help people. How do we do that? And what are some things that are facing us in the future? And how do we address those kinds of those things are fun for me to explore. And, you know, the guests on this podcast really helped me do that. So appreciate both you joining and helping support it. It's been a good ride.

Patrick Moran: 2:23

It's been fun. I was wondering, you know, how are these going to go into the disrupt HR thing? Is it going to be like, a lot of F bombs is going to be vention? Set? Like, how is it going to go? But it's been like, it's been cool.

Kyle Roed: 2:38

That's been fun. I still remember that person super weird. You know, listening, like, first of all, listening to your own voice. Yep. And then I can have all I can't, what are we going to talk about? Now? What do we have to say? But yeah, there's, there's lots to say last year, and it's been a lot of fun.

Molly Burdess: 2:55

There's always something to say. Can you guys, imagine what this first HR conference is going to be? Like? COVID?

Patrick Moran: 3:04

Yes, it's gonna be a mess. It's gonna be hot. It's gonna be like, sending COVID out through and off type of thing. Like, it's gonna be shirts off. And I might. What's that?

Kyle Roed: 3:14

What's that look like that you're going to HR conference shirts?

Patrick Moran: 3:17

A lot of beer or wine? Just, you know, what happens here stays here.

Kyle Roed: 3:23

Yeah, I think there's gonna be a lot of

Molly Burdess: 3:25

kudos to all the HR folks out there that have made it through this past year. And there's a lot of people that were able to kind of just sit back and write it out. But not HR, we're writing the brunt of it. So everybody know one thing that I wonder I was talking about this with somebody recently is all the cloud, maybe, Kyle, all the clout that HR has built over this last year? Are we going to, you know, still override that, or what companies are going to revert back from HR departments back in the corner, right? You know, it's just whatever you do help,

Patrick Moran: 3:57

don't lose it. Keep it going. keep the momentum going in your face, raise your hand. You've already shown you can do it. What's the majority half? The interesting? Yeah,

Kyle Roed: 4:07

it'll be interesting to see the evolution sticks. I think it will. I think it will, in some organizations with the writing.

Molly Burdess: 4:16

Yes. But I feel like there was already momentum. And then COVID just propelled that like, instantly forward. And I would agree, I think the right HR people, the ones that are definitely listening to the show, are they going to be the ones that will continue that I'm gonna do some awesome things now that we're not just surviving, now that we can actually try to thrive

Patrick Moran: 4:39

is going to be interesting. First HR conference this week, I'm going to my first Thursday of a safety workshop in Milwaukee. And the RSVP is bigger than any other year we have. Usually there's about 35 minutes to create like 60 or 70 comments. And that's remarkable for safety works for HR people. Sweet it really interesting to see how that goes. And it's not required. It's part of our captain program we have experienced, there's about 2425 businesses, but the leaders have come in at are covering how the maintenance people are covered. Everybody's covered. It's gonna be really interesting.

Kyle Roed: 5:16

So how crazy is the safety conference? They're about like eight Mark conferences. Yeah. Sounds really?

Patrick Moran: 5:24

Yeah. Yeah, no one's for 30 hits. cocktail hour starts. And the ones have gone to the past delis, we wrap everything up by about 910 o'clock after dinner, and I usually turn in, everybody goes to the casino. In the next morning, you come in, you can tell who see how this goes?

Molly Burdess: 5:43

Sure. I've actually looked into joining a couple of captives. And the off site meetings usually are held in really cool places. Yes, cash I should join just for

Patrick Moran: 5:54

the experience. Yes, they call it they have some to do with the money and domiciled countries. And I don't understand the terminology. I know, my leaders that are on the board can go to Bermuda or wherever you've never asked me. Nice to go. But I go to walk. It's not Milwaukee. Auburn. Yeah.

Kyle Roed: 6:14

It's the Bermuda of Wisconsin, there's water. There's water. There's water and the monitors and the beer and you know, it's all good. Oh, yeah, it's, you know, this year has been one of those I look back on and I think, you know, this year was a terrible year for a lot of people. And I think that, you know, we still aren't out of it, and they're still a, you know, there's still a lot of work that needs to be done and a lot of growth that needs to occur. And I hope that we can take away the learning that we've had this year specific human resources and continue that momentum forward. You know, Patrick, you and I were having this conversation that, you know, it's like, they really needed HR, at the beginning of the pandemic, right? Because, you know, we are the subject matter experts in all things weird, and like, What do I do? Who do I call, I guess, call HR, though. And so that was what we were live for, right? But then once it became kind of normalized, and you know, then HR tended, to, in some cases, start to take a little bit of a backseat, or, you know, leaders didn't necessarily have the same level of requirement for HR. So I'm hopeful that organizations have realized that this is not just, you know, an HR only thing and that we actually are, you know, strategic business leaders, outside of, you know, crisis management and managing vaccinations through a pandemic.

Molly Burdess: 7:47

Don't you think that's just as much if not more on the HR person, rather than the organization to take that initiative to say, Hey, you know, I can do this, I am going to be strategic, look what I did here, let me solve some of these other problems.

Patrick Moran: 8:03

I agree with that. Don't let yourself get wrapped up wrapped back into like the stereotype of HR, you are a you can do but then I know how you doing that? Because you did it? Well, I mean, your doors flooded with all your leaders every week, you still have to raise your hand. I hope with that, you know, more of learn that

Molly Burdess: 8:27

in our profession. Now, I'm not naive to think like, there's not organizations that don't think highly of HR, right. And that will fall back into that. But at the same time, I think if HR professionals step up and truly solve business problems, I would hope the business leaders would be open to it.

Kyle Roed: 8:45

Yeah, I don't know. I mean, I think that sounds nice. But there are organizations where it won't be possible. So, you know, some organizations will struggle to understand that, and I think will ultimately struggle, especially in the environment we're going into now is, we have a lot fewer people in the workforce, you know, the retention and attraction and hiring people is going to be the next big hurdle that we have to overcome. And if organizations aren't aware of their HR folks, as strategic partners, I think they're going to struggle a lot for organizations who have people who do HR, but don't, you know, don't have that as a full time job. If that's not a full time focus. They're also going to struggle. So I don't know, for me, it's kind of like the nature versus nurture argument, right? It's like so does your company nurture you to be innovative and dynamic and strategic? Or does your nature enable you to do that naturally? I don't know. I don't know if that's a clear answer. I think it's variable.

Molly Burdess: 9:48

I think of your larger organizations. It's probably more the organization can get in the way in your small to mid size. I think individuals leaders HR has a lot more opportunity and persistence pays off. Like for me coming up in small to medium sized business, there are so many opportunities like looking back. And like, if I would have just said something, or Hey, that was my idea. But I didn't say anything or wasn't persistent about this. I could have made a difference. But I sat back.

Kyle Roed: 10:21

Interesting. Yeah, I don't know. You know, the big versus small company debate is an interesting one for me, because I think there are really large organizations that are naturally innovative, and naturally, people focused. And then there are smaller, you know, small companies that that aren't. So I think it's really a product of culture. How much do you guys think HR actually impacts culture? Like truly builds culture?

Patrick Moran: 10:47

To me, it depends on the organization. You said about people first, is it an employee first organization? Or is it an organization when you walk in the door? It's defined by operations, sales, production, profitability? That's where you kind of get that sense of a walk in the door. And we are we even before pandemic, marry the size of the organization, HR departments are the ones that are really strict. You know, I think a rule, HR professional, one, HR, I mean, our body for every 100 employees? Well, we know that's not the case. I mean, let's be realistic about that. It really in reality, it's like one every 200, I feel like, so it really depends what that organization looks like, and how they're going to one of those ways are going to want to owe to the people first organizations. So now, we're all struggling for talent, they're going to pretty much have their pick where they're going.

Molly Burdess: 11:43

I think. So I've been organizations where I have learned that persistence does pay off. I mean, all those culture initiatives, it's really just about a persistence issue. But also, it's impacting the leaders and how they lead their teams and the culture they're creating with their teams. I think those are the two big things that can make a difference from a culture perspective in the tone that you're setting with you as HR and with your leadership team. I think that's a big one the tone.

Patrick Moran: 12:15

And I love that. Are you sitting in an office watching culture happen? Are you doing something about it? Like, what are you what is what are you doing with your own role in your own power?

Kyle Roed: 12:25

That's interesting. I think as much as we want to impact culture, it's all about hiring the right people hire the right leaders, and letting them do what they're good at, and empowering them to do that. You know, as far as communication, I think a lot of that has a heavy impact, especially if you're talking like organization wide communication. And I think if you look at, you know, from the things that HR can control, that's I think, in that context a lot. So I like to think about, okay, what do I actually have control over? Do I have control over the behavior of my employees? are leaders No. tries, you will, you do not have control over them? The best you can do is give them the training and the tools and hope that they use them. Right. But you know, I do think like, so if you control compensation levels, employee benefits, you know, response to employee leaves of absence or bereavement situations or mental health concerns, you know, those things, every single one of those interactions has an opportunity to inform your culture, right. And it builds culture by by being caring, and supportive, and empathetic and all the things that that we say we want. And so I think you can build culture in that way. I don't think that if anybody has a goal to try to impact behavior, the ability to actually control what somebody does is very minimal. So good luck with that.

Molly Burdess: 13:49

I would agree with that. But I'd also push back a little bit. And I think communication, clear communication, clear expectations can kind of help that. Like, for the most part. It drives me nuts when a leader comes to me and says, so and so just won't do it. I'm asking him to do it. He just won't do it. He sucks at his job. I hate that. There are going to be some people that is just not a right fit, right. But it's like, Okay, what expectations have you set? Have you explained why you're asking them to do this? Like, have you explained the job responsibilities? Have you given them the tools to do it and it all comes down to communication?

Kyle Roed: 14:26

Sure. But what are you actually controlling in that situation? You're coaching the coaching leader, you're right,

Molly Burdess: 14:33

some how to be better, how to interact better, rather than just, I'm done with this guy, buy or get a new one in here, because we all know that's not the case. Right? I'm dealing with that.

Patrick Moran: 14:43

That was one thing. As you were pulling up, I said to Kyle, no shit. Like today I can read the book, outside which was the HR

Kyle Roed: 14:53

the book

Patrick Moran: 15:00

30 year employee has his job duties shifted a little bit changed for the better. But if now eight months ago, but was officially given to him four weeks ago, now we want to fire pretty your employee. And there's some other protected class type deals in there where you can come back. Okay, you're frustrated, we had conversation? What have you talked about? Have you give him like weekly goals? No, I'm just ready to move on. Nope. Not gonna happen. I don't feel like no, come back, come back in six months?

Molly Burdess: 15:33

And just Is it the right thing to do? Like, you know, as a leader, and as an HR person that's helping my leaders lead people, I want to sleep good at night. And I do that if I give that associate every opportunity to make it better than that it's on them not on me.

Patrick Moran: 15:51

Yeah. And there are, you know, the greener there are the few that maybe just do need to go. by majority of time, people just don't know the expectations.

Kyle Roed: 15:58

Yeah, and I think you can set those expectations as much as you want, but you still don't have control. Right. And so I struggle with HR people who try to like man handle control of a situation and assume that their approach will get some sort of reaction or response. Ultimately, I do not believe that you can truly incentivize the behaviors you want, by without understanding that you have almost no control over. So anyways, I don't know, maybe I'm cynical, but I've tried to modify behavior a lot. And I do think it's all about, I do think it's clear expectations, it's, you know, setting communication, doing the right thing as it relates to that is the most important thing that you can do. But even that you're really just controlling the communication that you're extending to a leader versus actually impacting the culture, ultimately, the

Patrick Moran: 16:53

leader is the one doing all the work, we need better leader. Let's just throw good, they all have good, good traits, good qualities. But when it comes to doing that work, they don't want to do it. They don't want to do it.

Molly Burdess: 17:07

leaders can make or break an organization, a culture a team, I agree.

Patrick Moran: 17:13

And, you know, they say they want to, but they need to trickle it downhill to the frontline to those managers and supervisors that are really there with the employees all day every day. That's what I see a lot in organizations, you say you want to do it. But how do you communicate that moving downhill?

Molly Burdess: 17:30

So I feel like an organizational trend has been flattened out the hierarchy, right, less levels? Have you guys seen that? What are you guys, you think that's a good strategy, bad strategy. Apple just did this last year, I think,

Kyle Roed: 17:47

I don't know, if you could label it good or bad. I think it could be good, or it could be bad depending upon your organizational needs. But here's a couple of risks I've seen with that. Because I've seen both throughout my career. Number one, or levels means less spam control for leaders. And you know, if you look at depending on which study you look at, but I like the one done by the military, you know, they did a deep study on span of control, and basically said any more than 16 people, and you have lost your effectiveness. I can tell you, I've been in organizations with somebody with over 50 direct reports and a manufacturing facility. Let me tell you how much time and attention those 50 direct reports got from that individual, you know, who got the time and attention, the problem performers, the people who were who were, you know, squeaky wheels, making the noise if so to speak. So I think that's the risk. I do think that, you know, their reduction of span of control, also has a ton of positive components, potentially, you know, you are creating more, you know, open communication from senior levels of the organization to individuals kind of on the front line. You know, I think there could be some cultural wins there. So I don't think it's as simple as good or bad. It's also cheaper for organizations. Right. So, you know, and I'm not surprised. I mean, we just went through COVID. And we've got organizations, you know, scrounging for cash. It's not surprising that the one of the places they look is middle management. I mean, that's kind of the that is the typical pattern in, you know, the American capitalist system. So yeah, I don't know. So I think I'm agnostic on whether it's good or bad.

Patrick Moran: 19:32

I think the burden of it falls to the people that do the work, which is really unfortunate because they don't get compensated any differently, and they're losing attention from their managers and leaders. And what I see personally is now, okay, I'm reporting to know this higher level leader. I'm not comfortable bringing certain thoughts to them. I'm not comfortable sharing my ideas because they're this high up leader that's so many pay levels ahead of me. They don't want they don't care about Got my ideas, they've been there done that, or they don't care about my personal situation for work life balance, and that creates a big disconnect. And I guess that's my opinion on it.

Kyle Roed: 20:10

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Molly Burdess: 22:39

Well, both of you came from middle management, right? My marriage. And I'm knee deep into it right now. So

Patrick Moran: 22:46

right I currently it's hard. Totally. Yeah, you're in the middle. And you're the one that has to deal with all of it because somebody said something or an employee needs something. And all you're looking for is support. You don't have support. We have support at home. But not at work so much.

Kyle Roed: 23:05

Excuse my language, but you have shit coming both ways. Molly just dropped Yes. For now. My nine year old just knows what Yes, it is. Really quietly. He already knew. I don't know where we heard that word. You know, certainly wasn't dad. I bet mom was probably dropping some bass bombs. I guarantee it.

Patrick Moran: 23:28

Like when the kids walked in the door you both probably just like oh,

Molly Burdess: 23:32

never he says it was Bruno Mars. So it wasn't me. Yeah. Sky your child is Bruno Mars. Just let's put that on the record.

Kyle Roed: 23:43

We do love some Bruno Mars, Uptown Funk. At one point like two three years ago, I don't even remember what it was. But at one point, we were rocking to Uptown Funk. Like every night dance parties. You know, that was just our thing. And I'm not one of those guys that listens to the lyrics. I'm a music guide. I just like the melodies and harmonies of not releasing the word. And then I like slow down and I listen to the words I'm like, oh I oppression play this for like my, like, six year old, seven year old.

Patrick Moran: 24:10

There's a lot of songs like that. Like once you start listening. So yeah, this topic where we went but that's okay. An event I was at CeeLo Green was playing family event. It he didn't play the edited version of the few song. It was unedited. And the newspapers ripped him to shreds. It wasn't my hometown. Where was that cuz I remember hearing about that was I'm gonna say it was okay. It was a wonderful event. Love that event. One of my favorites. And no, you see I have a great place. But yeah, it was a few years back and it was not taken. Well. Oh, cielo. cielo is not welcome back. Yeah,

Kyle Roed: 24:50

I know that one. Anyways, what were we talking about span of control? Yeah. rein it in. We're chasing squirrels today but a guy okay. We're on our second beer. This is the first time we've done a podcast in person. It's our 50th episode. So you know, forget it. You know, shout out to my CEO, I started this podcast and I reached out to him. I'm like, Listen, man, I think I want to do this. But if you tell me, No, I won't write like, you know, I mean, this is something that I would like to use, like, Yeah, go ahead. He's like, just don't say anything crazy. So that, you know, if you would like to, you know, provide feedback on whether or not Kyle has has said anything crazy over the last year feel free. You know, we love you. I'm just gonna ask how's that working out for you? I haven't gotten in trouble yet. So now Yeah. Maybe he doesn't listen. I probably not. That was gonna be my you know, my wife doesn't listen. And I get it. Her rationale is, listen, all I deal with this HR crap at work, cuz she's a leader of people. I don't want to listen to more HR crap.

Molly Burdess: 26:00

And I have to listen to you. Every single day. That's good for me. Molly, what are you insinuating with that statement? Nothing. That's what my husband would say. No, I'm good.

Patrick Moran: 26:14

Oh, you're right. That's what my wife does have to hear babble every night. No, I don't need to listen to your podcast.

Kyle Roed: 26:19

Oh, Patrick's wife, Amanda, I just want to apologize, you know, and kind of pay it forward with the apologies, because every time Patrick and I get together, and the kids are playing and stuff, we inevitably just start talking about HR. This is what we do. Just HR, you know, hashtag HR nerds, whatever, sorry, all spouses of HR people everywhere,

Patrick Moran: 26:40

you need somebody to talk to you about it. A lot of times, you know, yes, relate to this, we can't even go to our own people at work, because we have to hide that from our own people at work. So it's like, who can we go to that event at work, we go to our HR peers. But this last year, we haven't been able to do that event, you know, get it off our chest.

Kyle Roed: 26:59

So I want to call that out right there. So you use the word hide. And I think one of the things that has been made readily apparent over the last year is that HR has a tendency to hide. And last year, we couldn't, we couldn't hide, we couldn't sit in our office, we couldn't do nothing. We had to be on the leadership calls. We had to be coaching the exact team on what to do. We had to be figuring out what the hell Dr. Fauci saying, What's the CDC saying? And what's your state saying? And why is the governor disagreeing and blah, blah, blah. And we're like we are like, called upon to be visible and not hidden. And I, that goes back to what I was saying earlier in this podcast, I hope that we don't hide anymore. And I think that there's a difference between being hidden, and being appropriately confidential with things right. So I guess I'm grasping onto that one word to use Patrick, but I hate the word hide. Because not only does it indicate that, you know, we should be ashamed of something that we're doing. It also indicates that we're being you know, kind of untruthful or have a lack of integrity. And we have to keep things hidden. You know, and I think that's such an interesting, you know, equation to get our heads around in HR is it's like, Okay, how transparent are you? How much do you share? And how much do you actually share with people at work?

Molly Burdess: 28:20

So scenario, curious, you guys's perspective, you have somebody on your team that is smaller team, but discharge for the people, there was rumors going around? Right? Of course there are what would you do?

Kyle Roed: 28:35

I just want to make sure I understand. So you fired someone because they stole from you or from somewhere else?

Molly Burdess: 28:40

So let's say they sell from the company, and another coworker. Okay. So coworker was impacted obviously rumbled culture they want to know, and or two scenario, so when they got one situation, they got a fire the other one, maybe they didn't get fired, but they definitely got discipline because you couldn't prove it or whatever the case, which is how would you because people want to know, like, did you address this? Like, this is a big deal. What happened? like three facts?

Kyle Roed: 29:08

Okay, so I don't know about thoughts. But you know, if someone were to ask me, so, you know, going back to kind of a comment that I was making about being, you know, transparent. If someone were to ask me, what happened? You know, my honest response would be, listen, I can't share that information with you. I understand. There might be rumors swirling, but I really can't share that information with you. It would not be appropriate. Right. I mean, that would be my comment. And you know, I would just kind of have to let them rumors swirl, right. Patrick, what do you respond,

Patrick Moran: 29:37

I don't think you can stop the rumors. I mean, you gotta keep it confidential. But, you know, you can reassure them all you want, but people's beliefs are gonna be their beliefs. That's all you can do

Kyle Roed: 29:47

is Cheers to that.

Patrick Moran: 29:48

Keep it positive, keep it up, be and just say it's handled. And we're gonna move forward. You know, we're gonna do our best to make sure this doesn't happen to any of you. Maybe here some measures were put in place to ensure that it's not to happen again. But if it does, it will be dealt with appropriately. We move on.

Molly Burdess: 30:04

Yeah, one thing I've heard about, specifically in middle management and HR in general, like, in the absence of information, people will make things up. And it's always the worst case scenario. It's never the best people can never assume the best. It's always the worst case scenario. So it's, yeah, I often find myself like trying to balance, transparency. And okay, you got to find that boundary, right.

Kyle Roed: 30:28

I think you know, what's so funny to me, I actually kind of love this. This is, I don't know, this is my sick humor. But I think that it is hilarious that when you come out with a policy or you communicate a change, or you know, have some sort of an organizational adjustment that's made, people assume that there is like, a bunch of people in a dark room, coming up with this sinister strategy on Oh, the reason you're doing this is so that you can three years from now, make this next change that just screws us over. That's why you did this. I know that for a fact I that's why and and what's so hilarious read as I'm sitting here, like, I don't know what's gonna happen in three years. Are you freaking kidding me? We're just trying to do the best we can with the information we got. Like, Oh, I wish I knew. I wish I knew the program. That would impact something. It could Yeah, we could modify a program in five years. You know what sometimes? Sometimes you just get lucky. And sometimes you get unlucky and some of this stuff. I'm sorry.

Patrick Moran: 31:36

But what about the response from employees? The immediate response? Oh, what sparked that? Who did something wrong? Why are we having you Oh, my dress code reminder. Okay. Oh, somebody wore their flip flops today. Oh, naughty.

Molly Burdess: 31:54

Oh, yeah. And then we get a text message on Saturday. So it says that a dress code or one of my favorites lately, is I'll get a picture of somebody shoes said to me, are these acceptable? Oh, okay. We

Kyle Roed: 32:08

didn't really learn anything. Nope. Nope. We didn't learn anything.

Patrick Moran: 32:14

That's a third s Bob on the show.

Kyle Roed: 32:16

Patrick, you are in rare form. You were in rare form. You know what I need to review our standards of business conduct. And we're gonna see if four s words is over the limit. Oh, God, you know, it's so funny. It's a dress code. That's one of those things is, it is just ridiculous to me. Oh, hate.

Patrick Moran: 32:37

dress, Cyrano Wilson tweeted, what is the one thing coming out of a pandemic you want to see go away? I tweeted back dress codes. I

Kyle Roed: 32:48

don't care. You know, I think dress codes have their place. I think if your organization wants everybody to be on a team, and the symbol for them is wearing a specific logo on your clothing or something like that. Okay, cool. Whatever. Right? But yeah, when you we all worked at home and God knows how many people were even wearing pants. Right? Like, I mean, I don't want to know that. You know, don't put the camera any lower than your shoulders. Let's just leave it there. I'm good with that. Right?

Molly Burdess: 33:16

There were some. I know a couple teachers that did this, but also some leaders that asked them to stand up to ensure that they were fully close. I'm like, that is a brave decision. You're insane.

Patrick Moran: 33:28

That's big brother. Don't do that. Nobody wants to know, I'm good. I think Kyle Nick Jr. As I think it was on one of the podcasts. We were talking about dress codes, a few podcasts back. And somebody in his business asked him What's our dress code on this and he handed them a piece of paper on their letterhead that just said dress appropriately. Guys like that story. That's me. Yeah, we are all grown. adults. We can handle this. Absolutely. Absolutely. Hi, dude. Hey, Kyle. skins here.

Kyle Roed: 34:02

Yeah, yeah. So this is what we get when we record at home. Anyways, he does look annoyed, you know, we are infringing upon his YouTube time and he has to keep his YouTube lower now. So sorry about that. But

Molly Burdess: 34:13

Sorry, dude, does he have time limits? screen time? Oh, I did. That's my kid. And it's like I put her in a prison. Yeah, Lord. Three hours a day. That's a lot. Very generous. In the summer is a lot.

Kyle Roed: 34:30

Yeah. Patrick, what do you allow? Like hour and a half? hour and a half? It could be worse. Could be a lot worse. hours.

Patrick Moran: 34:39

Oh, yeah. No workbooks reading. Yeah. Before any screen time. Oh, good

Kyle Roed: 34:45

stuff. Yeah. You know, this last year, I think it was one of those the one of those situations where we kind of had we had our moment to make an impact in our organization. And I just I want to just extend some gratitude to all the HR practice. teachers out there, and listeners that have been with us for the last year. You know, it's been a tough year. And our goal with this podcast and with the guests, and some of the conversations we're sharing is to help educate, as well as raise up. You know, HR practitioners that want to make a change, want to make difference, do things a little bit differently. And hopefully, our conversations have been a help to each and every one of you. That is our primary goal. And you know, the community that we built around the show and the support, and the wonderful guests we've had, it's just been absolutely wonderful. So you know, just want to extend my thanks to everybody listening out there. And to Patrick and Molly here sitting next to me. It's been an interesting year, and hopefully we can all shift to thriving in the near future.

Molly Burdess: 35:46

Yeah, I agree. But with that, it's also been a year of, we're not all perfect. And I think we all need to extend each other and ourselves some grace. So I'm curious, what was your guys's biggest failure? Or this last year? Oh,

Kyle Roed: 36:00

here's Molly was like real?

Molly Burdess: 36:02

I really want to know, like, it's been a crap year. And you know, not all of us in HR did everything right? I know, I didn't. Like, at some point, you have to learn to laugh about the mistakes that we've made, especially within the last year and let it go and move forward.

Kyle Roed: 36:18

mollywood ask the damn good question. Is a damn good question. But it reminds me a little bit of the question like what's your biggest, you know, what's your biggest mistake? What's your biggest weakness? You know, it's like, you know, have too big of a perfectionist. At one time, all the time, you know, you know, I just I care too much, you know, like, all these bs questions that you get, you know, anyway, biggest mistake, I think, for me, that's an easy one is I reflect, and I struggle with, you know, I'm a, I'm a struggler, of imposter syndrome at times. And I think that, you know, for me, as I reflect on last year, my biggest mistake was assuming that I communicated something appropriately, or I didn't truly seek to understand if the message landed correctly, you know, a great example of that would be early in the pandemic, rolling out, you know, COVID protocols and sending out those expectations and what we thought was clear, reviewed by an attorney, of course, and you know, all these protocols, and we roll it out, and then did not circle back and then seek to understand the the interpretation of the policy. And for me, it was a really clear example that you've got to check for understanding, you've got to, you've got to assume that somebody does not understand something, especially when you're communicating something on a broad scale. So that that was a mistake for me. And I think the other I don't know if this was a mistake, but I this is a call out. And this is a credit to my team. I think I assumed that my team needed me more than they did. But they absolutely did a wonderful job managing in cases where I wasn't immediately available and making some of the right decisions in a really, really tough environment. And so I think one of the mistakes that I would say I made was, I didn't give my team enough credit. And it was really, really powerful to see them make really, really good and tough decisions in a really quick timeframe to protect the team and to help the team out. So you know, a couple mistakes I'd call Patrick, I hopefully I gave you enough time to think of something.

Patrick Moran: 38:28

Is that what you're doing there?

Kyle Roed: 38:30

As try and try to help you I was throwing you a bone your two beers deep. I'm trying to keep you going? Yeah, you have

Patrick Moran: 38:35

to so I have to come up with three. So you're on the clock. Molly, you have for

Kyle Roed: 38:39

us, we're gonna turn the tables. Just to perfect. I would

Patrick Moran: 38:47

love that. You know, I don't know I haven't, I guess really have time to had time to reflect on things like that. Just because you think you're always doing the best you can do think you're always right.

Kyle Roed: 38:57

That's what you were gonna say. You can

Patrick Moran: 38:58

just say it. Think or no.

Kyle Roed: 39:02

There it is. Again, Amanda. I'm really sorry. I'm just gonna extend condolences. I'm gonna

Patrick Moran: 39:07

make her Listen to this. By the way. I'm giving you a lot of time. All you think what? No, I, I'll give you two. I'll give you two that I guess I haven't really reflected on but no, I think about it. We were forced to react so quickly. I think a lot of times, I reacted too quickly. With some I dealt with a lot of situations, my team, my HR manager, we had a log that I think is like 20 some pages of every situation that came through our door. There were times we did just react too quickly before really just giving us some time because I felt like we were just in reaction mode. Can't talk about every scenario, but I would say there was a few of them that okay, we should have thought thought through that one a little better. Probably the other one was, I left my previous industry in job to come to HR for a reason. So I could have some work life balance, which doesn't always happen in HR.

Kyle Roed: 39:58

That is a laughable, comment.

Patrick Moran: 40:01

This year alone, almost every second day I was playing Okay, we're

Kyle Roed: 40:05

gonna back that one up, we're gonna back up what mentor and what world told you that HR was a great place for work life? Never heard that. It was my thoughts. Just the guy, the guy who's always right. Okay, man, your clock is at five, if you're keeping score at home and you're playing a drinking game for every time Patrick says shit, you're at six, seven, maybe, I don't know, I lost track.

Patrick Moran: 40:36

Especially this year, we all just put work in front of everything else. And we didn't take time for ourselves. And we didn't force ourselves to do that. So I would say that would probably be one of my biggest mistakes.

Molly Burdess: 40:48

You know, mine was along similar lines, assuming I assumed people were keeping up with what was going on. So I assumed they knew why we were making the decisions that we made. And if this year taught me anything, it was that I need to slow down, I need to stop assuming people know things. And just be very clear in my communication and why we are making these decisions. You know, I feel like I did a good job, like commuting over communicating the hair organization was okay, like, everybody's gonna have jobs, it was gonna be okay. But I just I want to get into the fine detail. It was rough. I also made a couple like payroll mistakes, you know, my payroll in person reports to me and with ffcra. I assume she knew a lot more than she did. Had a little mistake with her 401k we have Oh, yeah, we're gonna push that out. I never want to think about that ever again, ever, you know, all you have to do.

Patrick Moran: 41:54

You and I use a payroll vendor and what they did, and then they switch the script.

Kyle Roed: 41:59

So for that payroll vendor, if you'd like to sponsor the show, you know, just we won't name your name.

Molly Burdess: 42:04

They call me today asking if I give one other potential client a reference, and I didn't call you.

Patrick Moran: 42:14

But we don't want to keep payrolls because it's too painful. Yeah, no, I feel your feet. I agree.

Molly Burdess: 42:22

Yeah, so a couple of like, technical things I should have tried to better understand, but nobody knew at the time, and then I didn't think to follow up. And you know, it was they'd roll out things, and then they would have no, there would be so much that was still left to be figured out. So we were all just in a million different directions. So the only reason I brought that up is, we all made mistakes. This past year, we all did the best we could we all killed it. But we also have to give ourselves some grace for what we didn't do and reflect on what we learn. So it was it was a lot.

Kyle Roed: 42:54

100% 100% Yeah, you know, I think, you know, if I just reflect on, you know, lessons learned, or, you know, personal growth, I think, for me, it was just expanding horizons, you know, being more open to feedback, being more empathetic with people who have more, maybe more fear, or have different circumstances than myself different opinions. Absolutely. Yeah. And I think, you know, I think one of the things that I tend to struggle with at times is, you know, I like to hold differing opinions in my head, I like to be kind of moderate in that, where I like to hear, you know, some of these diverse things, and then try to reconcile that in my own, you know, in my own thoughts, and I think that's, that's one of the things I really like about my job is the fact that I get to do that on a regular basis, right? There's never a black and white x plus y equals z. It's always, you know, there's always a hyperbolic curve and a derivative of x. And there's a, you know, standard deviation in there somewhere and all the stuff that I didn't do well in calculus with, but I do think that one of the biggest challenges that we face and I think one of the things that became more and more apparent to me was that a lot of people think in the term of black and white, which I think is a really big risk to any organization. If you get people who are too dogmatic about a certain thing, that's not healthy, right? And so, you know, I think about, you know, whether it's masks or vaccines or Fauci or Trump or Biden, you know, there's so much like just natural conflict from outside of the workplace, that filter in and, you know, trying to navigate that, for me, it's kind of, it's kind of interesting, and intriguing, like I, I find it an interesting challenge, but it's really stressful and for somebody like myself, who tends to in turn Analyze other people's emotions, it can be very, very draining. So how did you guys deal with, you know, kind of that conflict that was ever present all year?

Molly Burdess: 45:09

very exhausting. Tensions are high all the time. Yes.

Patrick Moran: 45:14

anxiety. And it was, yeah, those are the two best words I could say about pretty much walking in the door every day, and opening your laptop at 11 o'clock at night. It's what's know,

Kyle Roed: 45:25

what's next? What's next?

Molly Burdess: 45:27

Yeah, I tried to kind of go back to my apparently concept of the show, but give people grace. And then I made it very clear of what I expected for my team was the exact same. You have to give grace, you can disagree, and we will disagree, but we're gonna do it respectfully. Anything else I will not tolerate? You know, talking about my biggest mistake was being unclear I made sure damn well, it was very

Kyle Roed: 45:54

Oh, my God, when

Molly Burdess: 45:56

I was young, we weren't going to be dealing with any of that. We are going to be respectful. You know. And and part of that is when we talk about diversity inclusion, that's not just skin color. It's not just sex that is differing of opinions. So that was kind of how I laid that that groundwork.

Kyle Roed: 46:16

Patrick already answered. That wasn't it? wasn't an answer. Yes, more. It was similar. Give us some Patrick isms. Come on, we got listeners with drink in hand, waiting for another password. Well, I

Patrick Moran: 46:32

talked about and takeaways. People really show their true colors. And that was interesting to me. Just you thought you knew somebody. But then they're just completely not the person you thought they were the ones that were more hypersensitive than you would ever expect them to be people that were close to me that were that way that I was like, I okay, no, that's all cool. It's everybody have their own opinions. You got to respect that. And that's fine. But the other day, we were making decisions for the business to keep the business operational. That's where my mind was 24. Seven, as much as I tried to show empathy. I don't do it as well as you do, Kyle, or probably you, Molly. But every decision I made was all about the business operation. Patrick,

Molly Burdess: 47:13

you wear your heart on your sleeve? What are you talking about? They can't see that? Well. See, that was probably I had a hard time balancing that like, okay, the business and the people. But you can do both. And part of that is like communication. Like, you guys, I need to make sure especially when we respond business, I need to make sure that you have a job to return to, you know, and even if you communicate it or frame it like that, it's very helpful.

Patrick Moran: 47:41

Yeah, it's tough. It was tough. that balance between It was so tough. It just were without one of those. We did everything we could even sacrifice profitability to keep people employed. We didn't do the layoffs or anything like that. But it's so hard to try and convey that without disclosing like confidential information. We have a list of 20 things we can do. layoff was last seen, it's like we can't, we have levers we can pull, but he didn't tell him which ones. It's like, Just be happy. You're painting the wall today, and you're doing something that adds value to the business. It was hard to try to explain why they were doing that. Because our business declined. Healthcare closed, I'm going to healthcare organized, you know, I serve as healthcare while in the doctor's offices all closed. Oh, shit, we're not producing. Yeah, yeah, it's tough.

Kyle Roed: 48:28

Yeah. And it's, I think that's you just hit on. one of the toughest part of being HR is do you support the business? Or do you support the people? And I think that you have to be able to do both. And again, for me, it's it goes back to that equation, right? It's not, there's no black and white, like, I'm not here to work for the, you know, the business. I'm not here to be an only an advocate for the people. I'm here to try to find the common ground right to be that moderator in the middle, asking the right questions to the right people at the right time, to try to derive the best solution, given what we know right now. Right. And that, for me, that's the secret sauce. That's the those of the HR people that really make a difference and can drive the change that we all need, that they have the ability to do that. And that doesn't mean that that person is a CH, ro or VP of whatever. You know, that could be an entry level HR associate who just asks the right question of their leader to make sure that that leader makes a better decision tomorrow. Oh, yeah,

Molly Burdess: 49:41

my HR associate and payroll associate she makes probably the biggest impact in our organization just by show like going above and beyond to show people appreciation for them. Just to add to that, one thing I learned this year is I love the strategy portion. Right? I love That I put so much energy into strategizing, let's make this decision, I did not put enough energy into the executing piece and the communication piece in the rollout. And I think if you do that effectively, you can make any most any at all, most any business decision. sound like it's also going to impact your people. Well, you know what I mean? If you do it effectively, it can be that balance of both. That's one of my lessons learned.

Kyle Roed: 50:31

Yeah, everybody's screwed some of last year. I mean, I'm sorry. Nobody handled it perfectly at all. And, you know, I think that's a great message for anybody listening, you know, give yourself some grace. We all did our best. We all made screw ups. And, you know, I think that that we can all, you know, kind of walk away from this year. With a couple things in mind. First of all, thank God, it's over. Well, it last year is over. 2020 is over. Technically. Yeah, there's no argument there. I'm just glad 2020 is over. Now is COVID over Okay, that's another question. So before you try to like Jedi mind trick me, Patrick. And let's say that's bullshit. Whatever. Oh, now I said it as we're drink. All right, Molly. Cheers. Yours. I don't know. I think that last year was hard. Many of us are here. Unfortunately, many of us are not. And you know, at the end of the day, it is really about people. It's about taking care of others. And, you know, trying to balance employees and companies solvency and trying to find a common ground in the middle. So a lot of us who move mountains, a lot of us have mountains still to move. So you know, we're all in this together. True that? Yep. still digging out of the hole. You can do your new flash round. All right. Okay. Rebel HR flash round. So three questions. Real quick. quickfire two. We'll do three of them. So this will be different. Okay, Molly. Ready for flash on? Here we go. Question number one. What is your favorite people book?

Molly Burdess: 52:24

People book. Right now I am reading lean in women work and the will to lead. I'm learning a lot that you guys can't relate to.

Kyle Roed: 52:40

Fair. Okay, question number two. Who should we be listening to?

Molly Burdess: 52:44

Okay, so I just started listening to the podcast Life is short with Justin Long. So far, I've been pretty happy with that.

Kyle Roed: 52:53

Justin Long, you know, he is a an actor of our time. And perhaps, you know, his greatest work was accepted. Where the university was sh it shit drink one more. Oh, that brought it full circle. Last question. How can our listeners connect with you? LinkedIn is the easiest. Molly Berta. Molly per desk. All right. We'll have the information in the show notes, of course. All right, Patrick, you ready? Sure. Coming at you hot here we go. What is your favorite people book?

Patrick Moran: 53:32

I always revert back to the ideal team player by Patrick lencioni. I love that guy. love this stuff.

Kyle Roed: 53:39

You know, I've never read that book. It's on my nightstand. I haven't read it.

Patrick Moran: 53:42

I make all of my supervisors and managers read it. Anybody that's involved in hiring, you're gonna read that book. Sure if you work in my organization. Love it. All right. All right, like it.

Kyle Roed: 53:52

Alright, question number two. Should we be listening to

Patrick Moran: 53:55

I must steal a few that I've heard another podcast but I'd say him anyway. Number one, this podcast number two your employees. Number three, YouTube. YouTube the ban. You see the bait? Okay.

Kyle Roed: 54:08

Okay, got it. Yes. Yes. Oh, my God, I have a story because we're ready for an embarrassing story. So on YouTube, so I was at a volunteer event A number of years ago called Chicago cares if anybody in Chicago is listening. I'm sure you're fully aware, great event, went and cleaned up a house and helped clean up a daycare and it was just absolutely phenomenal. I'm sitting there with my HR business partner who's like this, like group leaders like a big deal. He's like, Mr. bigwig at corporate talent acquisition for target Corp now. And beautiful day comes on by YouTube and I'm like, oh, man, I love you too. And he looks at me He's like, what the hell did you just like you took the band you to the van. I still this still seared my memory. Like I just told this guy that I love him like weirdly but you He's a great guy. I mean, I love him as a mentor, but you know, not in any other way. Alright, so near my asking me Well, I don't Okay, do you know i? I asked him Oh, ask. Okay, Patrick's asking,

Patrick Moran: 55:16

What is your favorite people book or favorite book you've read recently?

Kyle Roed: 55:20

Ooh, favorite book? Well, I'm a very boring individual. One of the favorite books that I've read recently is richer, wiser happier. It goes into the essentially the biography of investors. And the context that I read that book in is how do they approach the world and how they manage things like risk and reward and so on. But one of my favorite people books actually, was the Alexander Hamilton biography that the play is based on. So I'm a kind of a musical nerd. So we got big enough, Hamilton, you know, I could probably recite most of them, I will not do that. For our listeners, I will spare you all. And plus, we don't have the trademark for the music, and I don't want to pay royalties. But the book itself is an it really interesting study of somebody who came from absolutely nothing built themselves up into something of a completely above, they're like they're standing. And then it completely came crashing down because of their ego. And so it's a really interesting case study and like in for me, like human behavior and the power of the will, and the power of the will to sabotage you as well.

Patrick Moran: 56:37

Going back to your first book, I think I love that you're reading something different. That's not people book or HR related. You guys

Kyle Roed: 56:45

got to get

Patrick Moran: 56:47

really in the heads of business leaders. For those people on this call that are HR people, read other books, learn what they're thinking, if you won't learn what your sales managers are thinking or your sales reps are thinking, read Jeb blunt, fanatical, prospecting, take some time for yourself, invest in yourself, read those types of books, so you can really understand the business or if you're hiring those people. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. What makes them tick? That's reading this book.

Kyle Roed: 57:13

Yeah, you got to speak the language. You know, some of my favorite books that I read this last year, I Delmon. All I do is read self help books. I'm like a total nerd like that. I don't like novels. It's just like, I don't know. I used to read Star Wars when I was a kid. But I don't read that anyway. Again, nerd. So. But a lot of books I've been like really studying have been investing, because when I started this year, and then we hit kind of the business continuity issues, and the risk to the business and what do we need to do in the business to for business survivability, I realized, I need to build up more financial acumen, I need to understand that language, I need to be able to speak that language. And in order to be an effective HR practitioner, that language needs to become second nature. So I read almost every finance and investment book I keep my hands on, so I could speak that language.

Molly Burdess: 58:00

It's really interesting. You said that because I have had like a significant number of people that have left our organization this past year to do individual investing, like personal investing. It's been crazy. I've never seen anything like it. It's been a good year for

Kyle Roed: 58:19

good education educated because it's not gonna be this good forever. doesn't always go up. All right, Kyle, Who

Patrick Moran: 58:24

should we be listening to?

Kyle Roed: 58:26

Who should we be listening to? Um, that's a really tough question. For me. I think that you have to listen to your inner voice. And the people that love you the most. And if you do those two things, everything else you do in life, hopefully, will be alright. That's deep. I agree with the inner voice though. It's good. All right. work. We find you. All over the place. www dot rebel Human Resources calm. www Kyle. Roed. Calm ky LEROED. com. LinkedIn. It's just a weird spelling. Just remember, it's our Oh, Ed row. Weird, not row whad. So yeah, happy to connect. And you know, I think one of the things that I will say is that probably my favorite thing of this entire podcast is the community that we've built around it. And the number of connections that I've made this year, simply because of the podcast that I never would have been before. It's been a wonderful journey. So thank you, everybody. Thank you, Patrick. And Molly. It's been a great ride and rate to do another 50

Patrick Moran: 59:37

Thank you, Kyle. Kyle keeps us going. rebello

Kyle Roed: 59:43

All right. That does it for the rebel HR podcast. big thank you to our guests. Follow us on Facebook at rebel HR podcast, Twitter, at rebel HR guy, or see our website at rebel human resources.com. The views and opinions expressed by rebel HR podcast are those of the authors and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of any of the organizations that we represent. No animals were harmed during the filming of this podcast baby