Episode 62: HR's "Comeback" with Annissa Deshpande

Annissa Deshpande: 0:00

I just felt that there was this opportunity to to do more right to help other companies to really broaden my, my footprint if you will, or my impact and so I made the decision to leave. And I wanted to focus on and smaller companies like startups that were just starting to hire. This is the rebel HR podcast, the podcast where we talk to human resources, innovators, about innovation in the world of HR. If you're a people leader, or you're looking for a new way to think about how to help others be successful. This is the podcast for you. Rebel on HR rebels. Rebel HR

Kyle Roed: 0:45

listeners Welcome back to another weekly edition of rebel HR really excited to have you with us and super excited for our guest today. Nisa Desh Pandey, she has done a lot. She's a former HR executive of a fortune 500, where she oversaw the successful hiring of 20,000 people in 150 countries. annually. She's designed internal talent initiatives to achieve business results. She founded Logue lab in 2015, and now combines her 20 plus years of experience in finance it and strategy to help companies modernize HR to grow revenue and create a place where people love to work. Welcome to the show.

Annissa Deshpande: 1:27

Thanks, Kyle. Molly, great to be here.

Kyle Roed: 1:30

Well, we are we are super excited to have you one of the things I also should have mentioned in the intro is you have written a book called the comeback, which is a HR novel. So I'm sure we'll be talking about that a little bit today. Yeah, sounds great. So why don't we start off and maybe step back a little bit? So first question is how did you get into the people practice? And ultimately, what prompted you to start low? Gleb?

Annissa Deshpande: 2:01

Okay, well, that's an interesting question. I actually started my career in it. And I spent 10 years working in both consulting and corporate environments. As many stories go, I was working in it, and for a company for a bank, and my boss got fired. And they decided that I wasn't quite ready for the role yet. So they asked me to run the department while they searched for the replacement, the replacement, six months to find the replacement. And when the replacement came, they said, Look, he can't really take control until you do something else in the business. And so I was asked to take on a special projects role working for the chief administrative officer. And my objective was to look for structural overhead savings, right? So and they wanted these to be non labor. So they they wanted to look for ways to reduce cost. This is right when right around when the mortgage industry was starting to take. And we were trying to save the bank. And so I did that for a few months. And then the chief administrative officer asked me if I could go help her in HR. So HR reported to her. And what she said was, hey, the company had grown exponentially, and the HR practices hadn't kept up. So we were dealing with issues like not everybody was getting a paycheck every time we ran payroll, and it wouldn't be the same people that weren't getting a paycheck. Or when we sent the benefits file to the providers, people would drop. And so they asked me to really dig into that it was more process systems type or and in then they just asked me to transform HR departments one by one, and then give them back to the leader to maintain and optimize. So I did that for a while the bank failed as many banks failed in 2008, we went into conservatorship with the FDIC. And then I suddenly became the chief people Officer of a failed bank settle.

Kyle Roed: 3:56

And that was on was that a guarantee that probably was not on your career path. When you were planning no to what

Annissa Deshpande: 4:05

I had been fight like, you know, I had run HR systems earlier in my career, but I've really been fighting the force that was pulling me to to be working with people. So you know, when you're working for a failed bank, and a conservatorship, you can kind of see that this isn't gonna go anywhere long term. So I started to look for jobs and ended up going to work for the Chief Financial Officer of a fortune 500 Bank as his chief of staff. And the way the role was structured, I was just really supposed to follow him around and understand how a fortune 500 Executive assesses risk and makes decisions. So it was a great training experience. But then I was also given a bunch of special projects, and one of those special projects was to run the strategic planning process for the company. So I did that and we realize there was a gap between what we wanted to achieve strategically over the next five years and our people practices. And this was a professional services firm. So it was mostly in the recruiting space. So after two years of working for him, he said, Hey, can you go run global talent acquisition for us and really help us come up with a strategy for how we're going to get all these folks that to fulfill our business, our business objectives, and meet our goals. So that's how I ended up working in HR. And I did that for six and a half years. And we were recruiting 20,000 people annually in 150. countries, it was a really big job, we had 200 recruiters on staff, I was traveling quite a bit into some really glamorous areas like Saudi Arabia, spent a lot of time in Asia spent a lot of time in Europe. And then after that, after about six and a half years, I was really loving the work that we were doing in terms of thinking about HR from the business perspective. So aligning all of our people practices, whether it was performance management, recruiting succession to what we were trying to achieve as a business. And I just felt that there was this opportunity to, to do more right to help other companies to really broaden my, my footprint, if you will, or my impact. And so I made the decision to leave. And I wanted to focus on and smaller companies like startups that were just starting to hire. And I will tell you, it took me a while to break into that space, because most of my experience, the company experienced and I had to learn how to tailor my approach to small companies. And so formed Loeb lab in 2015. And then we focus on emerging growth companies and investor backed companies and really helping them modernize their HR be able to compete for talent against the tech giants, or you know, anybody else that may be pulling their talent and making sure that they can, they can really use HR as a way to grow their business. And, as he said, create a place where people have to work.

Kyle Roed: 7:12

Fascinating. So our listeners can't see this. We can see each other on video, but everybody's just listening. So you couldn't see the smirk on my face when you were talking about not necessarily planning to go in HR, and then somebody got fired. And so now you have to do it. Basically what happened to me? Like, oh, okay, you're you do you do this? You like people, you do this? And yeah, but fascinating story, but great experience, and then ever happened to you, Kyle? Yeah. Well, then I got to meet you. So there you go. All right. No,

Molly Burdess: 7:45

I envy your it background, though. I think anybody that's an HR that has that background, it has to be so helpful. I am not one of those people. So I definitely envy it.

Annissa Deshpande: 7:57

Yeah, you know, it does help, especially with the data in there. You know, there's not a lot of great, a lot of the HR, a lot of the companies I work with don't have mature HR systems. So we manage a lot of things through Excel. And it does help to have that manipulation skill of it of Excel data and trying to figure out interpretations of analysis, I should say that you can actually take from it. So yeah, that that hasn't been helpful. But it is a cultural change to go from it to a Charles.

Kyle Roed: 8:30

Yeah, that's an interesting career path. You know, I, to all our listeners out there who are getting into the career, you know, one thing I would I would tell you that surprised me. And surprise a lot of the interns that work for me is you do have to be good at Excel. If you want to be good an HR, even though you wouldn't think so you at least need to have enough knowledge to because those systems, yeah, a lot of systems are not established. They're very informal. You know, there's not all these pretty dashboards, a lot of this is manipulated data that you have to do yourself. So yeah. So I want to talk a little bit about, you know, your approach, and you mentioned something that I think is really interesting to explore. And that's the fact that you went from a from a large organization, you know, fortune 500, right. I mean, these are the some of the largest and most established organizations in the world, and focused on smaller, maybe more nimble businesses that are just getting started. So first of all, what prompted you to want to focus on kind of the the more startup world?

Annissa Deshpande: 9:33

Yeah, I think it's a good question. I think I was with big companies. And I know you've worked at big companies, it's really hard to steer the ship, right, like change is so incremental. And I just felt like, we have a burning platform to drive change on the people side. And it's just too hard to navigate to really change the direction I should say, of the ship. And so It got tedious to me to try to really drive those type of changes in big companies. And what I found in smaller companies is that you could have a bigger impact, they were super open to creativity and experimentation and trying things because they don't have as much to lose. And I found that people were more interested in what in trying different things in this concept of modern HR. And they didn't look at it from a bureaucratic lens. So I mean, they know that they have to adhere to certain things from a compliance perspective, that they were very open to the idea of, okay, so no one else has done this. But let's go ahead and try to experiment and see where it takes us. And so that, to me, was super attractive. And, you know, when you get in early with somebody on a journey, you really be, they're very passionate, and you become a part of that journey. And it's just been so rewarding to see all these companies have these tremendous successes, and to know that you've been a part of it. So I think that's really what it was for me. And what it continues to be, I should say, too,

Molly Burdess: 11:08

I've come from the larger business side as well. And now I'm in small business, and it is night and day difference. And it's so much fun, because you get to you get to do things that you would never be able to do in a larger business, and you really get to make an impact. I completely relate. And I'm really enjoying it has its own set of challenges for sure. But but it is very much enjoyable.

Annissa Deshpande: 11:34

Yeah, and I think the other thing for me that if even though I was working in bigger companies, and you know, I think a lot of those companies were going through some type of change, and maybe didn't have mature processes, or as mature as you would think of a fortune 500 or a bank. And, and so there was a lot of opportunity to be entrepreneurial. And so I had that hands on approach, even though I was you know, working at a fortune 500. at the executive level, there was a lot of like, hey, try to get it done the best you can, with what with limited resources, right? There's always pressure on costs from an HR perspective at big companies. And so, you know, I knew I had that ability, I wasn't expecting, like to go to these small companies, and not be hands on with some of the strategy stuff and the creative ideas. But it did take me a while to convince, you know, CEOs of those companies that I could certainly be a value to them and not just come in and try to tell them what to do. Or, you know, advise them and then go away and give them a PowerPoint as a leave behind.

Molly Burdess: 12:39

I'm curious what you've seen, you know, you talk about going in and transforming HR departments. Do you see a difference between large and small organizations? As far as what is the HR department doing wrong here to name one thing that you continuously See, what is it? And is it different between large and small business?

Annissa Deshpande: 13:00

Yeah, that's a good one. And I think it really depends on the company. So some small companies will hire a strong HR manager that's early in their career and really wants to shake things up. And they'll just let them try. And sometimes they'll bring me in as a coach to just, you know, to help them think through different ideas. And, but in terms of when I see it go the other way, it's that they get purely focused on the compliance aspects of it. And, and they, they try to be the HR police. And they try to, they are constantly worried, or they're trying to figure out how not to get sued is another common one that I see. And there's no real thought about what are we trying to achieve as a business? And what are the people practices that we need to be successful. And that's where the smaller HR folks seem to struggle. And sometimes this is the way the business is set up. And what I mean by that is, a lot of companies hire at early stage companies will hire a chief people officer and then treat them like an HR generalist. And when I run into companies like this, I always tell them, I go, would you hire a CFO and expect them to keep your books? No, right? You would ask them to oversee that process, but you wouldn't be the one you wouldn't be asking them to enter all the data into the accounting system and manage that. And so getting business executives to think more broadly about how HR is structured, you don't hire a Senior Chief people officer expect them to do leadership development, coaching, and then expect them to do hands on recruiting. So I think there's also an education process for the leaders to have an open mind about what they're trying to achieve from a people perspective.

Molly Burdess: 14:46

It's funny you say that I was just reading a job posting the other day and was the title is director of strategy people, culture, whatever, and then you start reading the responsibilities, manage employee files, you know, safety Training like, okay, let's align a little bit.

Annissa Deshpande: 15:04

It's a common disconnect. And I spend a lot of time talking to leaders about, you know, you got to think more broadly about what you're asking folks to do. And you're, you're exactly right, Molly, you know, you get these huge titles, and then you have, like, personnel type functions that you're asking them to complete. And we wouldn't do that in any other function, we wouldn't hire a CMO and ask them to do graphic artists work. So it's just amazing that we do that in HR.

Kyle Roed: 15:31

I think that's fascinating. And I agree 100%. I mean, if you anything from the standpoint of, well, we're just trying not to get sued. I think your priorities should kind of screwed up. Right. But that, but so often, that's how, that's how departments are structured. That's how policies are structured, you know, it's like the, the lowest common denominator type thing, like let's just protect ourselves, as opposed to let's actually put together a policy or a process that actually enables our people to be successful, as opposed to not sue us. So very well said, I, I'm curious to get your perspective on this. And I think this is an area that our profession has seen a lot of change in. And that's simply how you even define human resources. And, you know, if you would have asked somebody that question, 20 years ago, you would have gotten the more kind of, you know, what I call personnel? response, right, you know, administrivia, and bureaucracy and all and the term you used was, you know, kind of like the police policing policies. So how do you define modern HR.

Annissa Deshpande: 16:40

So, modern HR, to me, is HR that is aligned to the business. And so that means that every people practice that we have is focused on driving business outcomes, achieving business goals. But you know, I think the balance to that is, we're also creating a place where people love to work. Look, it's not hard. And it's so interesting right now, because there's so much debate about whether we're going to go back into the office, or what the future of work really looks like. And one of the most interesting aspects of it is no one is really thinking about or a lot of the debate misses the question of how do we create a place where people love to work, right? I mean, people have been at home for 1516 months. Now, a lot of these people have been productive and successful. You know, all of a sudden saying, okay, we're going to go back to the way it was just doesn't feel right. Nor does it take into consideration some of the things that have fundamentally changed around childcare or other needs that you may have in your life that have developed over the last 16 months or have changed. So I think it's both I see HR as a revenue enabler. So that means what when you're designing practices, when you're designing services, you're thinking about, how is this going to help this company achieve their goals? How is this going to help us advance what we're trying to do as a business? And then how are people gonna react to this? Like, I think a lot of times, like the the user experience, or the employee experience is not thought through when we're designing services. So, you know, one of the things I encourage folks to do is to really design from the point of view of the employee or the manager, right? What is this? Is this going to be something that is added to an already busy day? Or is this going to be something that seamless that helps them get their work done faster, or integrates into their work experience? And so I think just fundamentally shifting how we think about HR making it much more of a revenue enabler. A business enabler is really what the way I see modern HR. And I'm not saying that compliance is an important, it's certainly important, but I think if you're doing the right things from a cultural perspective, you know, from a process of the services perspective, the compliance naturally follows, right. I mean, I think there's a good way that you can manage that compliance, that you can integrate it without designing around it, if that makes sense. Kyle, you're on mute. Can we keep that in the podcast? Yeah, let's

Kyle Roed: 19:09

do that. Yeah. Like, I you know, what, and I lost all that. It was such a great comment, and we just totally lost it all. So he looks very passionate. I was passionate. I was, I was feeling it. Alright. So great point. And I think, you know, I get so passionate about the fact that if you are doing the right thing for your people, and you're focused on your people, and you're focused on the employee experience, you don't really have to worry about compliance as much, right? I mean, you need to check the box on things like, you know, things like punching in and paying people for all the hours they work and all these things that but all those things are there, all those laws are there, because you simply just need to do the right thing and the laws are there to make sure you do the right thing. So as long as you have that overarching view and then the other thing that I I think it's just so interesting, it's part of the, one of the hardest parts of our job, especially when you get to the senior level is the fact that even if you have gone to a lawyer, you've reviewed all the laws, and you feel like you understand the topic enough to put together a policy, and that's compliant. laws change, judges change rulings, and a lot of times, what they're looking at, is exactly what we should be looking at, which is, what's the right thing to do? So for me, it's just, it's too dynamic of an environment regulatorily, to try to make your HR policies compliant, because the regulatory environment is gonna change anyways. So, you know, you might as well put together what's right for your people, and then let it all work itself out.

Annissa Deshpande: 20:47

I 100% agree with that. And I think, you know, there's this other aspect of HR, which I think is changing quite rapidly. And it's to your point about the regulatory environment. I think a lot of people still think that they can market themselves as HR compliance experts. And sometimes I'll get a call about that. And I'm very upfront with people, hey, I am not a compliance expert. I believe that you need to rely on employment attorneys and labor attorneys to help you figure this piece out. And we I can help you interpret it based on your risk and your risk tolerance in your business. But if you in a lot of times, companies think well, I can save some money by going to this HR compliance expert versus going to an attorney. And it's just it's a short term savings, right? The longer term impact of that is much more disastrous to your business. So yeah, that's that's a big warning sign when someone tells me that they're our compliance expert.

Kyle Roed: 21:42

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Annissa Deshpande: 24:22

Completely. Like in this dynamic world, it's impossible to be an HR expert. I mean, I bring years of experience but not in expertise in certain areas of how to solve a problem. But there's I think it'd be very difficult to consider myself an expert.

Kyle Roed: 24:38

Yeah, you always got to be learning the minute you quit learning, you're probably not doing well at your job. So let's let's talk about something that we talked about before we hit record and I want to talk about it and I just kind of want to air it out. And that's the fact that HR sucks. So, and full disclosure, sometimes I agree that HR totally sucks. Then this job can really be not very fun sometimes so. So walk us through that. Why does HR suck.

Annissa Deshpande: 25:12

So my tagline, the tagline for my business is HR sucks, but it doesn't have to. And it is really a kind of a, I guess a judgment on the, the old traditional HR. And it's really funny because and you guys probably know, this is, as HR people were a little bit like doctors, where we get phone calls from our family and friends, asking us to help them through an HR situation. And if this happens to you happens to me all the time. And when I say, look, here's what you have to do, but you have to go talk to your internal HR person, they're all like, Oh, no, no, I can't do that, you know? Or do I have to, you know, it just, I just really don't want to talk to them. And, you know, I think I'm on a mission to change that perspective, that mentality around HR that, you know, we can like, first of all, I think it's a fascinating place to work. And I think it's of all the different things that I've done, I stuck with the people and culture aspects the longest, because, like you said, Kyle, you can't ever be an expert in this. And it is so dynamic, and it's so interesting, and it's constantly pushing you to be creative, to deal with what's coming next. There's never a, I've got a playbook for this. And we can solve this problem with this step. Right? It's, it's in a lot of times, even if you think that way, you run the play, and you realize, okay, that that didn't really solve the problem. So I'm trying to get people to think more. First of all, I think there's a lot of folks that are coming into HR that have this desire to align it to the business, and, and can see the most interesting and compelling aspects of working in HR, and how it can really be something that influences a business. And so I think the tagline is intended to say, look, I get it, and I take a different approach to this and help you really think about this function as something that's really going to be critical to you achieving your business success.

Kyle Roed: 27:10

100% Yeah, and I you know, all kidding aside, I mean, that, you know, HR is as enriching and rewarding as you let it be. If you spend all your time in the soaking up all the negative energy that can come from it, or trying to chase down people that did something, not exactly how the handbook has it laid out, you know, he's, you're gonna make yourself miserable. And I think there are, there is such, there's also such a diversity in in what the job of HR is, depending upon the organization that you're at. And I think, kind of circling back to where we started this conversation. That's one of the things I love about a smaller organization that can be a little bit more nimble is its, you can be a little bit more of a generalist, and you can, you can tend to float into areas that you tend to do well at. And the other things, you know, you know, you can maybe find other experts, that's certainly how I do it, I find an expert that's good at it, to do the things I hate doing. But you can really move the needle. And if you focus on the things you enjoy, and you focus on employees and doing the right thing, it's a whole lot. It's just a whole lot more fun.

Annissa Deshpande: 28:24

Anything, right, and there's really an opportunity to HR is really starting to have, I think one of the big changes that we have to think about in HR is the external impact the you know, the talent market is super challenging right now, how do you compete, and that takes an external focus, which hasn't typically been something that you would find in traditionally.

Kyle Roed: 28:50

Absolutely. HR as a strategic advantage. I agree. 100%. And it's, I mean, it's competitive out there. And it's not just like, yeah, which brand of, of soda Do you want to drink? Now? It's, which company do I want to, you know, work at for a few years. That's where we're at right now in the talent market. So you know, you better you better put your marketing hat on a little bit and start to think about how do we differentiate ourselves from, you know, from the pack? So, Molly, I was, you were gonna say something I cut you off.

Molly Burdess: 29:23

I don't know what I was gonna say. But I agree with what you're saying. Now, a lot of what I'm seeing organizations, some organizations are doing a lot of really cool things. And you just said the key word, they're not marketing it. So you know, I think, as HR individuals, we get so stuck on like, Okay, what can we do different or what can we do better? And those are the good questions. But I think a simple easy way is what are we doing now that we can market a little bit better to candidates and to our team and how can we capitalize on what we're already doing?

Kyle Roed: 30:01

Molly's throwing her earbuds at the computer. She's so fired up right now. Yeah, you're back now,

Molly Burdess: 30:07

I'm back. But yeah, that's one thing I think is just a simple thing that we can all do that is not going to cost anybody. Anything.

Annissa Deshpande: 30:16

So right. So right. So tradepoint, I often advise will two things, I advise clients to really look at their glass door, and look for those strengths. And think about how they can amplify those strengths throughout their culture to your point, Molly and, and Kyle about marketing. And in second I in this market, and I actually think this is true of any talent market, but I really advise clients to to be as strategic and intentional about acquiring talent as they are about acquiring customers, right? So it's the same mindset, get with your sales and marketing folks and understand what they're doing. And then you know, really try to turn that muscle on the acquiring talent perspective, that's the only way you can be successful in the long term and get the talent that you need. 100%

Kyle Roed: 31:06

Yeah, and I think it's so critical and so important. And, you know, I kind of had to learn it the hard way, where I worked at a business where we were hiring a couple 100 people a year, quite a bit of turnover, and we fell into that trap of just get somebody, you know, just find somebody that fill the seat, as long as the degree lines up what and, you know, we fell into that trap. And guess what, it didn't work, and turnover kept going up. And it was just, and then it was like, you know, this flywheel of higher, higher vacancy, fill it quick, six months later, it's vacant again. Versus, you know, the approach, which I think we would all agree is better, which is, find the right players, take your time, but also help your team understand why that time is necessary and what they may need and kind of work through, you know, that that talent selection piece as well. So I want to talk a little bit about this. So I think a lot of this comes down to, you know, what I'm hearing is, it's considered kind of like customer service. It's like you're an internal customer service organization, and it related to the people within your organization. And then the other thing that I think about is, what we've talked about a couple times is the narrative, and the story, and what story, are you telling your employees? What stories are you telling candidates? And what stories are you telling your managers? So I want to talk a little bit about the modern HR novel, the comeback. So what inspired you to write a novel on HR?

Annissa Deshpande: 32:42

Wow. And I've always enjoyed creative writing. So before I wrote the novel, I was writing poetry and I have a blog on my website, which, when you think about writing poetry, and I think about writing my blog, I definitely enjoy the poetry more than writing the blog. And so I think, you know, it was an opportunity to bring together all the things I love, which is the work that I do creative writing, and I had been watched everything I could on TV during the pandemic, and was like, Okay, I need to do something different. So why not create my own story. And it was, a lot of what the story is, is, as I was trying to get people to understand the concepts around modern HR, I would use these little anecdotes, and people would nod their head and they go, Okay, I get it, but they really didn't internalize how it could impact their business. And so, you know, one day I was just thinking about it. And I was like, I write this book about and, you know, a book about if I had written a book called The 10 principles of modern HR. I mean, Kyle, maybe you would have read it because of your nonfiction, you know, thing, but I don't think it would have really appealed to people. This actually is a book that a lot of general readers can read and have a better understanding of modern HR. It's intended for business leaders to read and understand how they can make the most of HR and HR practitioners can read it and just get a sense of, you know, how they should be thinking about their job. And it really talks about a company that are it's a story about a company that is going through severe business challenges. They have a lot of turnover, they have a lot of open roles, they have a great HR person, but she's not focused on the right things. And it's her transformation, to modernize HR with the help of the coach who's loosely disguised as me. And that helps the company overcome its obstacle. So that's the story. There. It's it's actually really fun. If there's a lot of there's a theme around baseball, there's a lot of bad beer jokes like stuff about PVR if you know just to make it fun and a lot of the story takes place outside As the office because the concept is pretty big, and it is pre pandemic, but the epilogue deals with the pandemic. But the concept is, we have our day at work. And then we go home to our families, or we go out for drinks with our friends. And we talk about what happened. And so the story really tries to capture those moments where people are reflecting on a meeting that they had, or their it's the meeting after the meeting where everybody's in the office talking about Oh, that went really well. And here's, you know, in trying to summarize it. So, look, I think it's, I've had a lot of non HR people read it and enjoy it. So it's just intended to be a fun, fun read for everyone. And it doesn't take long

Molly Burdess: 35:41

to try stuff outside of your try.

Kyle Roed: 35:44

I'll read it. You know, I'll read a novel here and there. But I guarantee you, it's way better than I'm reading a book about the futures markets right now, I bet that's a lot more exciting than the stochastic oscillation that I'm reading him. But you know, it's fun. It's funny, because I don't know how many of us have gone to some sort of an event or a bar or whatever. And you're like, Ah, you should hear what I just sat through, or you should hear about my day. And but a lot of times, we can't even talk about it, right? I mean, you know, we've got a obligation to keep things confidential. And so we really even can't speak freely about some of the things and so it sounds like this may have been a little bit of that outlet for you. Totally. And everybody in HR says, I can write a book after what I just went through. So kudos to you for actually doing it. I don't know if I'd want anybody writing a book about my HR. Escalades. Molly, yours is probably better than mine,

Molly Burdess: 36:44

man, I don't know. But that I think collectively we could have. We can ask them stories. That would be good.

Annissa Deshpande: 36:52

And you know, fiction, you can embellish and make it work for you. Right. So that's the other fun part about it. Yeah,

Molly Burdess: 36:58

I love that you took that different approach. Thank you. Very nice, for sure. So I want to talk a little bit about hiring globally. I don't have a ton of experience in that. I know, Kyle, you do so especially within the last year, and you know, we have a war on talent here. Is it the same globally? Or what does that look like?

Annissa Deshpande: 37:22

Yeah, I mean, I think we're seeing the struggles across the board. And I do think that the labor shortages that we are seeing are going to continue. And one of the the opportunities that I believe we have an HR is to be much more creative about how we fill those gaps. And even thinking beyond, you know, the contractor model, what does work really look like in the future, right and questioning this notion of the W two? I mean, are there different ways that we can get worked out? I think, the last 15 months, we've proven that there are so many opportunities for how work can get done in different ways we can, we can cut up jobs in different ways we can, you know, really use people in their use people's skills to deliver different outcomes, no matter where they're located. And, you know, like, you know, Kelly, you were telling me about your editor being in Bangladesh? I think, you know, we're going to see more and more of that, because I think the world even though we were reminded of I think this last year, I should say we were reminded that the world is so small, right? I mean, when you think about how Coronavirus COVID-19 spread throughout the world and continues to spread. It's just a reminder of like, you know, we're a very small world. And I think that gives us opportunities to to think about talent differently, to bring in some of those experiences. And most of us are selling globally, right, a lot of our customer base is global. So we do need to think about having workforces that reflect the composition of our customer base. And so I think we should be much more open minded to how things can get done. And so yeah, I think that the labor challenges are global. And I think that it actually provides us with an opportunity to think about things in a different way and to challenge our conventional notions of employment in how we can get work done through a variety of mechanisms, not just w 210 99. But is there something else out there that we haven't even thought of yet?

Kyle Roed: 39:28

Yeah, that's really interesting. I think, you know, one of the things that has been really exciting and interesting through the terrible nature of the pandemic has been the just the change of how we get worked on and kind of a little bit of a shift from making sure that people are working a certain number of hours and focusing more on what is the actual output? What's the value proposition of this person? And, you know, asking the question, like, do you have to be in an office building from nine to five commute for two hours of your day, every day, 10 hours a week times, you know, I mean, it just, I think that question in and of itself is healthy to ask as it relates to innovation. But then the next layer of questioning is, do we even need to do this here? You know, is there an opportunity to to engage somebody in a completely different timezone to work while we're all asleep? So that when we wake up, we have that work ready, you know, and that's, and there's such an interesting, interesting shift there. I think that we're also going to see this conflict between kind of the globalization and nationalization. Alright, it's really interesting stuff, really appreciate the time. And he said, it's been so fun to listen to your kind of your journey, and your approach. And I am going to have to pick up a novel and read a little read a little bit of, you know, fiction here, I think. So appreciate you spending some time I want to shift gears and go into the rebel HR flash round. So three quick questions here. Are you ready? I'm ready. All right. Question number one, what is your favorite people book?

Annissa Deshpande: 41:10

set it up? This is my favorite people. But But I definitely Well, first of all, my favorite people book is the comeback. But you know, this novel about modern HR

Kyle Roed: 41:20

groundbreaking novel.

Annissa Deshpande: 41:25

I just read the book lights out, which is a story about GE and really what happened. It describes the downfall of GE. And I think it's important for every leader and HR person to read because it just reminds us that this relentless focus on the short term, short term profits and not digging into how those profits are achieved and the long term impacts of those rights. So there were a lot of people that relied on GE, for the dividend for, you know, for just regular income and the decisions that they made. And the impacts that they had just, it was it was just beyond the company and the shareholders it was it was communities. And so I think it's a really important way to remember how you know how important it is to think more broadly and more strategic about business, and also about people and communities. So totally recommended.

Kyle Roed: 42:23

100%. And, again, circling back to what we talked about earlier, coming from a large company to a smaller company. A lot of times those larger companies will focus on quarterly results, as opposed to long term stability and really what's right, so, yes, yeah, absolutely. All right. Question number two, Who should we be listening to?

Annissa Deshpande: 42:44

And so there's a guy, or a great group of HR leaders, Kyle Roed, Molly, Patrick revelate, Turner. And I seriously, I've enjoyed your podcast quite a bit. But I would also say, I've been listening to Adam Grant does work life. I also listen to a lot. It's a Bernie Browns podcast, both of our podcasts. But I think Darrell Lee has a lot more from a leadership perspective, and challenges me to think about things in a different way. And it opens my both of them are really opening my eyes to some of the challenges we face from a diversity and inclusion standpoint. So I'd recommend those

Kyle Roed: 43:25

absolutely great content, if you're an HR and you haven't listened to either one of those individuals strongly recommended. Really great content there. So all right, last question. How can our listeners connect with you.

Annissa Deshpande: 43:37

So you can connect with me on LinkedIn, and my website is the low blab dotnet ello, G, la B Ne t. And you can also connect with me on twitter at any city. That's my Twitter handle.

Kyle Roed: 43:53

Perfect, and we'll have all that information in the show notes so that people can connect. After this. We'll also have a link to the book if you want to check out the book. And take a look I love for for individuals to get a new way to learn about HR. So thank you so much for sharing and thanks for joining us today. Thanks for having me, guys. I All right. That does it for the rebel HR podcast. big thank you to our guests. Follow us on Facebook at rebel HR podcast, Twitter, at rebel HR guy, or see our website at rebel human resources.com. The views and opinions expressed by rebel HR podcast are those of the authors and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of any of the organizations that we represent. No animals were harmed during the filming of this podcast. Maybe