Episode 77: Recruiting for the Future with Michael Yinger

Michael Yinger: 0:00

I actually think is more important. Because if you don't have good employee experience, if they're not happy doing what they're doing, then they're not going to be doing a good job which is going to impact you whether you're selling something or you're recruiting people or you're servicing.

Kyle Roed: 0:13

This is the rebel HR Podcast, the podcast where we talk to human resources, innovators, about innovation in the world of HR. If you're a people leader, or you're looking for a new way to think about how to help others be successful, this is the podcast for you. Rebel on HR rebels. Alright, rebel HR listeners really excited for this conversation today. If you're an HR practitioner, if you're trying to hire people, if you're struggling to hire people, I think you're gonna want to stick around for this discussion today. We've got Michael year, the founder and board member at resume c.com. He's a high performance forward thinking SEC with 20 plus years of experience building teams, managing global organizations and providing strategic guidance to C suite and boards of directors resume Steve as an HR tech startup as CEO, Michael is responsible for strategic direction, and operational oversight in the ever changing industry of HR tech. Welcome to the show.

Michael Yinger: 1:19

Oh, I'm happy to be here. Thanks for the opportunity.

Kyle Roed: 1:22

Well, really, really excited about this. We were talking before we hit record, I think this is just a really great fit for for our listeners who are going to be dealing with some of the woes of recruiting screening resumes, and trying to find the right people for the organization. So a ton we can talk about today. But before we get into that, I'd like to start off by talking about what got you interested in HR tech? And what prompted you to start resume safe?

Michael Yinger: 1:50

Yeah, thanks. You're right. These are interesting times when it comes to what's going on with technology with hiring. I've been in the specifically in this space for about 20 years, I started more on the process side. And that morphed very quickly into working with and then even managing that technology. In the early days, I worked for an RPO company in the early 2000s. And went from there to that was that was Ronstadt source, right, which some people may know. And I went from there to AON Hewitt. And then we got bought by people scout. So that that was 20, almost 20 years worth of hands on. And the technology was always a big piece of it right in the area where I had the most traction is sort of that interface between the process and the technology, it all too often, one is thought of instead of the other, as opposed to how the two of them work together. And so you end up with a situation where either the technology doesn't work, or the process has to be completely changed, because they didn't take the technology and apply it into the consumer in the first place. So that's what I was doing up until 2020, then COVID hit. And so you know, I'd like a lot of other people, I've got an COVID story, which was, you know, we took a major hit at people Scout, and I was, like, go along with a lot of other people. And rather than just sort of sit on my heels, I was looking around for what I might do next. And then a couple of the other folks who are co founders with me reached out to me and said, look, we've got this technology, and we've got this idea for a company, would you like to come help us work on it. And so that was 18 months ago, it was unexpected. Appreciate it, it's been a it's been a great time, up till now we've done a lot of really interesting things and continue to evolve from where we started. And that's, that's how I got to where I am today. And in terms of what we're doing resume said, awesome.

Kyle Roed: 4:08

You know, I'm just really fascinated to learn a little bit more, you know, about the, about the organization. So, you know, it's, it's in my notes, it says it's an AI powered candidate evaluation platform, designed to ignore biases and look purely at talent. So, you know, as I think about that, you know, we're just really fascinated to understand how does this system kind of differentiate talent from from bias and and, yeah, and how does it work?

Michael Yinger: 4:44

Sure, sure. It because of course, the immediate assumption I'm totally there with you is, well, if you've got a I don't you run the risk of having bias. It's where we're using the AI that makes us a little different than anybody else. The way the way our tool works is you you ingest resumes, and you've got a job that you've either ingested or you've created in the system, and then you're evaluating the resumes against that job. The AI component is in the parsing of the resume. So there's no judgment going on, it's really do I understand what this document is, that's what the computer is going through, right? That's what that's what the AI, the AI is learning how to read resumes. And if you ever seen a resume that, you know, format pages, graphics, it's all over the place, right? So the AI is learning how to read resumes. And at the same time as the parsing is going on, it's capturing any new jobs it's never heard of, it's capturing any new skills that it's never heard of. So that our taxonomy for how we're evaluating the resume is growing over time, we're actually using an algorithm to compare the required criteria against the parsed resume. And so it's arithmatic. There's no judgment going on. It's simply we're looking for skills, we're looking for job titles, we're looking for education, certification, language capability, visa status, those are the kind of things that we're looking for. And it's either there or it's not there. And if it is there, how long has it had hasn't been present? And how recently has it been present? Now, for example, I've got some computer programming in my background, back when they were punchcards. Is that really a relevant skill? You know, if someone's looking for a computer programmer, you know, okay, great. Yeah, I did that when it was punchcards. Baby myself, just so. So inherently, the evaluation is based on the skills that are either present or not present. And so So hence, it's it's an objective evaluation of the skills. Now, I will tell you, that what comes next could bring back in bias because what comes next is somebody deciding who to interview. That's, that's the nature of the challenge in the recruitment space, isn't it that you can you can make the system as neutral as possible. And of course, there's always an interesting conversation about what does neutral really mean. And you got people making judgments on who to talk to and what the outcome is, from that. It's, it's a, it's an interesting challenge that we have to continue to work on, as we, you know, face the, the ongoing conversation of the DNI really brings to the front.

Kyle Roed: 7:34

Now, that's fascinating. And, you know, admittedly, I haven't I haven't made the leap to AI supported recruiting yet. And I would say, you know, from my perspective, it's maybe a little bit fear based, you know, I mean, if I'm being perfectly honest, it's kind of it's, it's, it's new, you know, but the context of maybe that fear for me is, you know, I'm afraid if I do bring in an AI screening tool, that I might, you know, have implicit bias in that tool, or that, or that I might be screening out candidates that have, you know, maybe a gap in their resume, because they, you know, took a few years to raise a family or, you know, maybe they were incarcerated, but they have all the skills that we need in, you know, in a manufacturing setting. And, and that's great. You know, it's so you know, that that's maybe one of the reasons there. And then, but then, as you just described that, you know, my I took an interesting direction with my thought. And, you know, the other day, I was trying to figure out, Okay, how many people have I interviewed over the last almost two decades in HR, and it's, it's, it's well above the 1000 level, I mean, it's probably five to 6000 Total interviews over the course of my, my career, and I mean, we're talking high volume recruiting retail manufacturing, you know, I mean, that's, that was like, the first 10 years of my career. And what you just described is essentially what my brain was doing, it was figuring out, okay, what are the key things I need to look for? And how do I screen because I might only have, I don't know, 30 seconds per resume, if I actually want to get through this 300 300 resumes. And so, you know, that's so it's really intriguing to me to think that I might, you know, unintentionally creating an algorithm. And then the second area that my brain went to was, and that was inherently biased, every single one of those algorithms that I created in my own head, because as my career has progressed, I've learned, oh, that that was a bias. That was a bias. And I've evolved and adapted as I've become, you know, more aware of these implicit biases that are just naturally ingrained in me because of, you know, whatever.

Michael Yinger: 9:43

So, yeah, think about it in this regard. That even if let's say you've got 300 resumes, which would be a miracle today, right?

Kyle Roed: 9:52

Yeah, this we're talking like, early 2000s.

Michael Yinger: 9:57

Yeah, let's say you have 100 And that's not unusual, right? You see jobs posted on LinkedIn. And they say, Well, we've already got 100 applicants, whatever, by the 10th, that by the 10th resume, are you looking for the same thing? So you're looking at it the same way by the time you get to the 20. And so that's not bias. That's me. Yeah. Repetition bore you to boredom. I was talking to a TA lead about our tool. And and she said, Well, you know, we just posted a job that she was she was looking to hire recruiter to recruit nurses, both very hot things right now, this is early on in COVID. She had 700 applicants in 36 hours. So she cut off the applicant, she cut off the the posting, okay. I said, what'd you do? She said, We printed them out. Three people four weeks, evaluating the resumes. And I said, Okay, well, you know what, you know, was there something wrong with that? She said, Yeah, I probably wanted number 701. Yeah, right. No, it's It's that that's the beauty of something like the sieve, which is what we call our tool, our first tool, the, you have the ability to quickly evaluate that entire stack of resumes, or maybe the entire stack of resumes that you've ever gotten, because we save them for you. Looking for somebody who has a who's a match to whatever your opportunity is now. And oh, you get some more tomorrow. Great. Put those in, and let's reevaluate all of them again, and then see who comes out on top? Oh, you don't want Java you want? You know, if you'd rather have C++ you rather go back in time, great. Reevaluate them again, all of which takes just seconds to to evaluate. It really is a we think it for some organizations is going to be a game changer. Now. You know? Yes. You know, it's very easy to say, well, this is in certain applications already. That's true. There are rudimentary searching and matching tools in some, but not everybody has access to those, you know, does everybody have the wherewithal to sign up for, you know, Oracle, HCM or SAP or iCIMS, that have some of these embedded tools? No, they don't, they're going with Zoho or greenhouse, which is, you know, a little more approachable and more financial, financially acceptable. As of today, we integrate with Zoho, we're integrating and greenhouse and we're in the process of integrating with bullhorn, you've got your job in there, you got your resume in there, all all you'll have to do is click a box will integrate it create the integration for you. And then you can pull down your jobs and your resumes and evaluate them in the sieve and then decide who you want to hire and then continue on with your applicant tracking because he's particularly these these accessible systems, I don't want to denigrate them because they fit a really broad spectrum of the market. That, you know, they don't have all the bells and whistles, you know, you gotta look around for what's, you know, what, how can I add value to it? And that's where something like the CEO comes in.

Kyle Roed: 12:53

Yeah, that's, you know, that's really interesting. So and, I mean, you've, you've been in the industry for for long enough, you know, you get it like the, you know, the comments on fatigue. And, you know, I reflect on this the, the time intensive aspect of recruiting is just, it's, it's really hard to get away from and, you know, I think one of the challenges in that I focus on is, you know, trying to remove the, you know, the non value added functions and you know, value add for me is, is literally screening, it's it's actually understanding does this person fit? But But sifting? Yes, if that's that's there, that's a little bit of a different challenge where, you know, yeah, you get you get a couple 100 resumes. Yeah. God willing, you get a couple 100 resumes in today's market. And then yeah, bye. Bye. Bye. Resume number 30. You're, you know, you're at a certain point, you just forget. Oh, what? What was that first one I liked? What's different about this one? Yeah. Oh, am I being too hard? Maybe you know what, I haven't found the right one yet. Maybe I'm being too Maybe I'm being too hard. I need to ease up. Right. And then so then every resume after that, it's like, you're looking at it with a little bit better perspective. Or the flipside is, oh, I've already got 10 in the in the pool, and gosh, I can't I can't deep screen these 10 I better, I better start being a little bit more, you know, specific about what I want. Yeah. I mean, it's just, it's, there's just no science to it. Right. It's truly it's really just a personal kind of an art. And it but yeah, I mean, you know, in other words, for artists, you know, biased. Right. You know, I mean, I like to tell people resumes. Resumes are art. And everybody has an opinion and everybody's wrong, just like art, right?

Michael Yinger: 14:53

It's, it's a great analogy. It's so true. You know, back to something else that you said. You're talking about, you know, screening people out and how you know, your concern on the AI that it might screen people out. The there was a really interesting study done by Harvard, published just recently that talked about that significant numbers of people that are screened out, amounting to 10s of millions of people who could be viable, but the system screening them out before anybody really has a chance to look at them. And it's exactly the kind of factors you talked about, is there a gap in their history, you know, maybe they the length of period of the jobs is too small, or you know, any number of these sort of technical things that a system learns to screen, which brings you to the challenge of AI. I think AI is a wonderful bit of science, and I fully support the continued development of it. And the key to making it successful is how is the system learning? And is the system learning? Right? I was talking to a CEO who had, I won't say the name had an applicant tracking system that had an AI module. And he was kind of pissed, because he was paying for the AI module. And the recruiters weren't using it. Why not? He said, because they don't like the results that they get. And I said, Well, were they providing feedback back to the system? You said, Now, they just stopped using it? Okay, that system hadn't learned anything yet. Yeah, you know, and, you know, whether or not it learns the right things, that's a whole different issue. Right. It's, you know, the, the horror stories of training a chatbot. To be, you know, yeah, yeah, following some sort of an agenda. Microsoft Word that in eight hours, didn't they?

Kyle Roed: 16:40

Yeah. Or like, yeah, that what is it the AI, there was some AI that like decided that the world was doomed. And we all just need to give up and, you know, a few minutes on the internet.

Michael Yinger: 16:52

So you begin to see that and and, and then there's a whole aspect of AI not to go too deep into it. There's a whole aspect of AI around, you know, how do you decide what's neutral? Bring an article just recently that was talking about sort of the the the societal ethics of training AI's to be neutral, but it's, it's whose definition of neutral? You know, I'm not attempting to get political here. And you look at our political discourse, and you say, Well, who would you listen to? If you were trying to create a neutral platform? Because they're not absolutes write their opinions? Yeah, it's, it's, it's an interesting challenge. I think, over time, we'll, we'll come to grips with it. And the, the AI has really backed off from where it was in the early days, where you know, AI was going to be picking the person and it's not so much that anymore, it's helping with sourcing, it's helping automate the process and make the process more accessible. But it's, you know, there's, there's a lot less of this, well, AI is going to be picking who the next person is, who's going to run your company that doesn't that language doesn't seem to be out there so much right now.

Kyle Roed: 18:05

Yeah, you know, this is such an interesting conversation. And you know, depending on you talk about neutrality, depending on your your school of thought, you know, if you go out and you start Googling, you know, AI recruiting, you're gonna see, you're going to see a ton of people that love it, and a ton of people that hate it. And just, literally just yesterday, I was skimming through LinkedIn. And Johnny C. Taylor, Jr, the president of Sherm made a comment about why it's risky for HR to rely solely on technology using the example of a woman who took five years off to care for her developmentally challenged child, and that, you know, the screening system might might miss that. That individual, but one of the commenters was, had a really great point. His name's Ira Wolf, he's actually been a past guest on this podcast. And his comment was, listen, technology just does what you want it to do. So that, you know, the bias, or the risk of technology is actually just getting it set up correctly, and then enabling it to do what you want to do. And I, you know, I hadn't really thought about it in that context, but I think that fits exactly what you just described, which is, you know, leveraging it, you know, for good. Instead of, instead of, you know, the, the other, the other the other angle so, so as you as you think about your system as your program, you know, is learning, how do you how do you get those inputs, is it does the customer actually help the AI learn what works within their organization is that how is that how it works? And now a word from our sponsors. When Molly Patrick and I tried to figure out how to start our own podcast, we didn't know where to start. Thankfully, we found Buzzsprout Buzzsprout makes it super easy for us to upload our episodes, track our listeners, and get listed on all the major pod Gas networks. Today's a great day to start your own podcast. I know that you're one of our listeners. So you've definitely got something to say. Whether you're looking for a new marketing channel, have a message you want to share with the world or just think it would be fun to have your own talk show. Podcasting is an easy, inexpensive and fun way to expand your reach online. Buzzsprout is hands down the easiest and best way to launch promote and track your podcast. Your show can be online and listed in all the major podcast directories within minutes of finishing your recording. Podcasting isn't that hard when you have the right partner, the team at Buzzsprout is passionate about helping you succeed. Join over 100,000 podcasters already using Buzzsprout to get their message out to the world. And now for listeners of rebel HR. You can get a $20 amazon gift card sent to you from Buzzsprout by clicking in the link in the show notes. Thanks for listening. Are you looking to grow your personal brand or your business brand? Take it for me the podcasts are a great way to do it. Here's the secret. We all want to feel connected to the brands that we buy from what better way to humanize a brand than through sharing your personal story on a podcast. I have had great success with Kitt caster caster is a podcast booking agency that specializes in developing real human connections through podcast appearances. And let me tell you, it's all about the right human connection, you can expect a completely customized concierge service from their staff of communication experts. Kit caster is your secret weapon in podcasting for business, your audience is waiting to hear from you. For a limited time offer listeners to the rebel HR podcast can go to www dot Kitt caster.com backslash rebel to get a special offer for friends of the podcast

Michael Yinger: 21:48

revelon. So well. So there are two aspects to it. One is the the system is learning as it's going through the resume, what what it's looking for, and how to find it and how to, you know, be more effective. And then it's saving those results and adding it into the taxonomy. Now we do have a customer feedback loop because one of the things that we found early on was often just because the way somebody was was typing something in, they couldn't find the skill that we're looking for it, we actually found out something kind of humorously interesting about the accounting profession, we were talking to an accounting company. And they really couldn't, they couldn't find senior accountant in our skills list. Well, senior counts, not a skill, that's a job description. And so we you know, we've adjusted to that. And what we've, what we've done is we've said, If you can't, if you really can't find what you want, click here, and we allow them to input it and they send it to us, we evaluate it because maybe they're just spelling it wrong, it could be that simple. And then we will fold it into so we are allowing for some input into it, we we talked about actually allowing them to change it on the fly. And we've held off because then suddenly, that big thumb on the scale thing starts to come up that you know, someone doesn't get doesn't score well, because you know that, quote unquote, our system didn't see the scale in their resume. Well, maybe it was there, and somebody just wants this person to score higher. And, you know, we we're trying to, we're trying to make it easy for people to remain compliant. And so for now, we will take feedback, and we will adjust as necessary. And the system is learning as it goes along with, you know, what's missing, if you will, again, it's not making any judgments about whether it's good or not, or whether it's present or not. It's just you know, what are the what are the what are these words mean? And and should they be in their in our criteria?

Kyle Roed: 23:50

Now, that's, that's interesting. And you know, the other thing I was thinking about, as you mentioned, that is the, you know, how critical how critical it would be to get the job description, right? And that position profile right and actually take the time to actually make sure you're not asking for a purple squirrel or a unicorn that doesn't exist. And then it's actually what determines success or failure in the role. What's, what's a whole nother conversation,

Michael Yinger: 24:20

one of the first bits of feedback we got from from testers was boy, it would be really nice if you could just adjust the job description. And my perspective, at the time, at least internally was I think it'll take more time to adjust and ingest a job description than just to create it because you know, with our with our system, you can create a job once you know the system which is true of any system in two or three minutes you can create the what you're looking for that way you know what are all the skills you're looking for, how much of the skill and so forth. We do allow ingestion on the job description. So what happens is I wrote a job description for sale Professional and I adjusted it and ended up with like, 25 different skills. Well, I really only needed five, there were really five that I was critically interested in. So I had to edit out the other 20. And so I ended up being right, even though we put the capability in so that, you know, if you want to ingest a job description from your ATS, we will do that for you. And then you can adjust it. It's it is it's an interesting skill, writing a job description. You know, all too often, how much of it is, is measurable, that's really the key, you know, the, you know, the soft skills versus the hard skills that it's, it's just, and they're there, I have one client at a previous company. They had 10,000 job descriptions, because that's my job. That's how many jobs they had. Every single job had its own job description, just maintaining that. It's, yeah, yeah, there's a lot of room for efficiency in the recruiting process. At the end of the day, that's that's what we're going for. We're you know, we're taking a whack at a really big piece of the recruiting lifecycle, which is, you call it sifting? And you lifted that I know, right? From our marketing, why

Kyle Roed: 26:14

didn't I promise I didn't I'm not perfect,

Michael Yinger: 26:17

is ycF. When you can see live?

Kyle Roed: 26:20

Yeah, there you go, Hey, if you're looking for marketing professionals,

Michael Yinger: 26:27

you know, just just to give you a little bit of stats, we think on the average, you can save about 70% of the time that you spend today, evaluating resumes. And that translates into as much as a 35% savings and time to fill. Well, that's tremendous. You're talking about 35% change in savings and time to fill if you've got three recruiters, so you only need two. And I'm not advocating getting rid of recruiters. In today's market, what's the hottest job out there a recruiter because there aren't enough of them. Because during COVID, they went they found different jobs. Right. And of course, now that everybody wants to hire like, man, they not only need all those recruiters back, they got laid off during COVID. But they need more, they aren't out there. So why not make the recruiters that you've got more efficient? Yeah. Very, very repeatable.

Kyle Roed: 27:17

I just hired a recruiter. Yeah, let me tell you how, let me tell you how hard that was.

Michael Yinger: 27:22

And as you're probably paying a lot more than you hoped to.

Kyle Roed: 27:25

Yeah, significantly, you know, if this was a, this was, back when I started as just a it's a little bit of a different, different game now. But, you know, I think that's so that's so interesting, you know, to think through, you know, not just recruiting as a soft skill, but thinking about kind of the, you know, the, the mathematical approach. And and, you know, from my perspective, I, you know, I don't know that there's necessarily anything wrong with with utilizing AI as long as it's done appropriately. And I got to feel like, there's got to feel like there's a balance there, right, like, you shouldn't have like robots hiring, from start to finish, like there has to be a human element in there somewhere. But but in the same context, yeah, I mean, I, just thinking about the the workload, I think, my organization we don't, and we're not a very large organization, we don't do a ton of hiring, we've done more hiring in the last year than we have in probably the last five combined, we still had to screen through almost 4000 resumes over the last few months. You know, and that's for my team that's either one of two recruiters or a hiring manager that's going through and going through these 1015 2030 4050 resumes, in some cases to find the ideal candidate and wasting their time. So it's not even, you know, in my organization, it's not even a recruiter that's looking at these resumes. A lot of times this is a hiring manager that should be leading and, and driving, you know, revenue, or helping customers in some way, shape or form. And so, you know, so yeah, so I, if I can find a way where I just give them, here's five pre screened, right, you look through these five, and then you tell me, who you want to continue the path, I don't will help, you know, help organize and coordinate. You know, for me, that's kind of the that's the true north. That's the ideal. And, you know, my approach is, you know, talent selection shouldn't be an HR function, it needs to be business function. Yeah, HR supports it. But if I can give qualified candidates to my hiring managers, now I'm giving better customer service to them. And so yeah, I mean, this, you know, it just makes sense to me to think about this as a potential opportunity.

Michael Yinger: 29:44

Well, it and what you're describing is one of the features that we built in, which is, let's say you have 100 resumes and you run them through the sieve and you've got them rank ordered, and we break it down by those who meet the criteria and those who don't. You can collaborate with your hiring manager within the system. We have We have it set up so that you can you can invite the hiring manager. And the two of you can look at the list. So you talk about given five pre screened candidates, a hiring manager, great. Well, the hiring managers as well, you know what? I'm not sure I like all those folks. You know, show me the next five. Yeah, they're right there. You know, you don't have to go back and figure out who the next best five you've already got them.

Kyle Roed: 30:20

Or, or my favorite is the Oh, I love this candidate. But I'd like to see three more. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, like you said, You love this candidate. Anyways, yeah. Yeah, we need a couple of drinks to go through those stories. I'm sure.

Michael Yinger: 30:36

You're sure.

Kyle Roed: 30:41

So, you know, I think that, you know, this is just really interesting for me very, very, you know, very eye opening. And like I said, this is something that, you know, we haven't incorporated in my organization, I'm not sure, you know, if any listeners out there have had success with with incorporating this, we'd love to hear about it, let us know. And, you know, we'd love to hear some testimonials. But, you know, one of the things that I wanted to touch on is a little bit about how HR Tech has been a little bit of a swing and a mess in the past. And it's you know, there have been some, some pretty, you know, publicized situations where HR Tech has just quite, quite frankly, kind of failed recruiters. And so, you know, as you take a look at that, and as you know, as you were building your organization, what, what missteps, were you thinking about how were you making sure that your your system did not do that?

Michael Yinger: 31:29

Yeah, I know, we did think a lot about that. And part of the challenge, I think, all too often has been complexity, there's more complexity than you really need. I speak with a little bit of authority, because I was a Twilio administrator, and also a people fluent administrator back in the day. So you know, I do understand sort of the nuts and bolts of some of these, these technologies. And, you know, I, I sat in on a presentation today, and they were talking about, well, we can integrate with any technology, the recruiter just has to go in and use Zapier to do this and do that. And I'm thinking, you're going to ask a recruiter to drive an integration between your technology and their technology is that putting the burden in the wrong place or what, you know, what recruiters want to recruit, right? recruiting, recruiting is fundamentally a sales position. And it's driven by conversation connection, that's what it's driven by. Even even in the high volume, space, you know, a lot of the a lot of the ghosting that goes on today, mostly in the high volume. So I saw that on entirely a lot of the ghosting goes on because people never get a connection with the with the company, you know, you write you talk about it, and end to end electronic recruitment process, there is there is nothing that that candidate has connected to accept a job and a paycheck. They they haven't gotten a sense of your culture, they haven't gotten a sense of the kind of people who are your organization. This is why I mean, someone made a sort of a bold statement on a webinar just a while ago saying, Well, you know, eventually recruiters are gonna go away, I don't believe that. It's, you know, maybe maybe it's because I'm in the industry, but it's, it's about the human connection. And if you lose that human connection, and that's an I so I think that the technologies that have been more successful have been the ones that have been really easy to use. And, you know, you're not forcing that recruiter to become a gearhead. It's, you know, it's, you know, some are because they enjoy it. And, you know, most most people aren't they, they'd rather just the technology to do whatever it is they need to do with all all the, the complexity, and you know, some of that there are some vendors who are trying to fix this, you know, primarily through sort of end to end offerings, you know, you get a whole suite of things you think of, you know, some of the big companies that that will do things in the end, even that hasn't quite gotten there yet. I think the other thing that early on was was when the the big ERP companies to lay oh, you know, Oracle and SAP, you know, when they were offering recruiting, but it was a sideline, it wasn't, it was just, you know, you bought this and so you got this for free, fortunately, they've moved away from that, and they, they are more concerned with how those individual components work, but I I think that the biggest failing in general has been the excess of complexity features that people just don't need. Yeah, or they don't work the way that you say they would they do

Kyle Roed: 34:39

that absolutely. You know, it's interesting so you know, as you mentioned that you know, a little bit of a light bulb went on in my head from my my past experience, I've used the big ones and I won't use the name but really, really intricate system integrated with everything you would ever want. And but using it as a recruiter was like you had to learn Turn, like 17 different workflows and then just to get an offer through the system correctly was like, it was like an act of Congress, it would take weeks in some cases. Whereas now I got this super simple system, I got a great recruiting admin, we can get an offer out in an hour. Right? You know, and it's and it from from interview to offer extension. And we can have somebody on boarded in in a, in the matter of a few hours and hired literally the next day if we need to, you know, and it's it's one of those things where it's like it, we just, we just kept like stupidly simple. OutSmart ourselves.

Michael Yinger: 35:40

I had a, I did an implementation many years ago, and the HR lead came to me and said, Okay, we're going to change out and we're going to go with this, this other system, which is a part of a suite that our vendor is offering us and I said, Okay, you're probably going to regret it. And he said, he, she said, why? And I said, Well, you know, you're just, it's gonna be more clicks. And she said, Oh, no, no, they tell us everything. That's okay. She came to me after three months and said, Why is it taking 40% longer to recruit? And I said, Because you move from a drag and drop system to a stamp and status system. And so you're doing 40 to 50% more clicks? What can I do about that as I go back to the old system?

Kyle Roed: 36:24

Right? The system is a system, right?

Michael Yinger: 36:27

Yeah, yeah. And, and, you know, I think some of that is still true today that they're, you know, there's just there's a level of complexity with some of these systems, that makes them harder to use, really does. And that's, that's, I think, is a really sort of a generic disservice that's been done on the part of the part of the industry?

Kyle Roed: 36:47

Well, I think it is, it's really interesting, and I do think recruiting is one of the more exciting aspects of human resources, I do think it's gonna be, it's gonna change significantly, I don't see recruiters ever going away. But I think a lot of the focus over the next few years is going to be on the user experience, you know, that UX. And if that, you know, if you if you can come up with that, like that frictionless experience for the user, for the recruiter, save them a ton of time, make it just easy and kind of, you know, make it Yeah, just like, as simple as using a, you know, Facebook or Twitter. Or, you know, eventually we're gonna be we're gonna be scrolling through the, you know, tic TOCs of candidates or whatever. I mean, you know, who knows what's coming up, but it's, you know, it's, I feel like that's, that's coming up in the the organizations that can do that and kind of understand that.

Michael Yinger: 37:35

All right, tick, tick, tock has already done that.

Kyle Roed: 37:37

Yeah, I you know, what I Okay, so

Michael Yinger: 37:40

they're testing, they're testing recruiting videos. And I think it's, it reminded me a lot of when there was conversation around virtual reality, applications and things like that. There are jobs and there are industries where that will work in if, if, if you're trying to go fast, giving a hiring manager 10 video interviews that are 15 minutes long to look at that's, that's a non starter? No, that's a non starter. But if you're if you want to hire a creative person, you know, I mean, I can I can see it that there's a niche for that.

Kyle Roed: 38:16

Yeah. Yeah, I think niches the right word. Yeah. And I tell you, if, if I get a tick tock video, somebody like with like, a, like a cute puppy doing a trick, or like, you know, I don't know, it knows my feed. So it like, it's just crazy how these algorithms work. But you know, it knows that I want to see like videos of like home repairs, which is like the weirdest niche and tick tock, I think but like, Oh, look at how, look at how they fix that plumbing fix, you know, it's like, so if they can do that for it for candidates, you know, I think I'm all for it. I you know,

Michael Yinger: 38:50

I, you know, back to the the user interface thing, Josh Burson said something the other day that he's really, he's really in the candidate to employee experience right now. And, you know, he speaks from a pretty big platform. He said, employee experience is as important as customer experience, I actually think is more important. Because if you don't have good employee experience, if they're not happy doing what they're doing, then they're not going to be doing a good job, which is going to impact you whether you're selling something or you're recruiting people or you're servicing, you know, the employee experience, you hit it right on the head employee experience is a huge thing. Whether you're in HR or you're, you know, you're on the front lines. And a lot more work needs to be done. Think about it, that you know, we, we spend all this time doing these slick front ends for our customers. And then the people on the back end are working with band aids and baling wire and, you know, four different systems and three different monitors and trying to you know, as you say, 10 days to get an offer out I mean, yeah, it's crazy. There's a there's a world of opportunity, that's I'm setting your motion. This is a exciting area. I think there's a world of opportunity there still.

Kyle Roed: 40:03

Well, yeah, absolutely. And we are, we're coming right up to the end of our time together. And really, really fascinating stuff. I want to shift gears and go into the rebel HR flash round. So three quick questions here. And then we'll wrap up. So are you ready?

Michael Yinger: 40:20

Sure.

Kyle Roed: 40:20

All right, here we go. Question number one. What is your favorite people book?

Michael Yinger: 40:26

Favorite people book. A lot of the books I've been reading lately are about sales. People. So I you know, it's it's, I can't put my finger on it. I'm going to flub this one. I can't put my finger on the people. But I did. I'm reading I'm halfway through a book about the the sales funnel is dead. And you know that it really makes a lot of sense to me in the context of the broader job that I'm doing. So you know, they did this. There's minus one for me, okay. No, people book on my bedside.

Kyle Roed: 41:00

That's okay. There's no this is not a graded test. So, okay. Question number two, who should we be listening to?

Michael Yinger: 41:07

Yeah, so there are there are three or four people that I listened to with with great frequency. I already mentioned Josh Burson. matalon. larrondo is very, very balanced and thinking a lot about what's going on and technology. Jonathan Katz and Baum, who runs the talent tech labs has a really broad platform. And then there's one particular CEO that I listened to a lot. We do some work with him. His name is Vinay Johor, he works for He's CEO of our chili, which is the core of our was one of the technologies that's integrated into our system. He just he's spending a lot of time just thinking about what's going on in our space in the HR tech space. And he's just got a really down to earth perspective on what works and what doesn't work. So those are, though, and then, you know, I certainly you know, that you've got the corn fairies and the Harvard Business reviews. They're doing some really interesting stuff right now. But you know, in terms of people, those those three or four people are really top of my list.

Kyle Roed: 42:13

Awesome. Yeah. Obviously no Josh person, I must check the others out, though. Those are new names. So appreciate that. Alright, last question. toughest one so far, how can our listeners connect with you?

Michael Yinger: 42:23

Ah, well, I'm on all the usual platforms. And that's the easy way to get ahold of me Michael younger, whether it's Facebook, Twitter, LinkedIn. My My email is Michael at resume sieve. That's pretty easy. Our web address is resume, sieve calm, pretty easy to get to us there as well. And happy to be in a conversation with anybody if it's a question, or maybe there's something we can do for you. And you know, our application is available for free trial if somebody just wants to check it out.

Kyle Roed: 42:54

Cool. Yeah, we'll have all those links in the show notes. So pop open your podcast listener, and you can hop right in there and check it out. Really appreciate the time here. And, you know, I think just a really insightful conversation. I certainly learned, learned a lot and appreciate you sharing that knowledge with our listeners.

Michael Yinger: 43:11

Thanks so much for being here and appreciate the opportunity. Great questions.

Kyle Roed: 43:15

Thanks, Michael. Have a good one. All right. That does it for the rebel HR podcast. Big thank you to our guests. Follow us on Facebook at rebel HR podcast, Twitter, at rebel HR guy, or see our website at rebel human resources.com. The views and opinions expressed by rebel HR podcast are those the authors and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of any of the organizations that we represent. No animals were harmed during the filming of this podcast. Maybe