RHR 125: Mental Models for HR Success with Christine Comaford

Christine Comaford: 0:00

I want us to look at, like, what is the legacy that we're leaving every day? How did we show up for ourselves and others every day? And when we're having a grumpy day, it's okay. To be honest about it. You know, it's okay to say, Wow, I'm both really irritated. And I'm irritated about this, there's a mess. And you know what, I'm gonna shift my state just hold space for me, everybody for just a couple minutes. You know, while I do maneuvers of consciousness, or an outcome frame or whatever, but I think being present to who we are, where we are letting people drift, like be okay with that, I think it's really dig.

Kyle Roed: 0:37

This is the rebel HR Podcast, the podcast where we talk to HR innovators about all things people leadership. If you're looking for places to find about new ways to think about the world of work, this is the podcast for you. Please subscribe from your favorite podcast listening platform today. And leave us a review. Rebel on HR rebels. All right, welcome back, rebel HR listeners extremely excited for the conversation today with us, we have a wonderful guest, we have Christine, comma Ford, she has a such a long fire that I'm not going to be able to read it all. She specializes in applied neuroscience, which helps her clients achieve tremendous results in record time. She's an entrepreneur, she's built and sold five companies. She was a software engineer in the early days of Microsoft and Apple. Christine is legit, we're just going to leave it there. So we are going to be talking all about meaning, compassion and mindfulness in the workplace. So with that, Christine, welcome to the podcast.

Christine Comaford: 1:44

Thank you so much, Kyle's awesome to be here.

Kyle Roed: 1:47

Well, I am really excited for you to be here. And I really appreciate your patience. We had some technical issues ahead of the podcast here. So for the listeners that are listening to this, I apologize if the audio quality isn't exactly where you're used to. But I guarantee you the content is going to be well worth it. So so bear with us. So Christine, thank you for rolling with it. Absolutely. Well, you know, one of the things that I think has probably prepared you for technological issues is some of the time that you've spent as a Buddhist monk serving the Dalai Lama. So I'm sure you are much more patients than I have. So thank you.

Christine Comaford: 2:27

I don't know depends on the day.

Kyle Roed: 2:31

It's a journey, right? It's always a journey journey.

Christine Comaford: 2:33

Yeah. Gosh,

Kyle Roed: 2:36

well, I want to jump right into it. And you know, you've got a really, really diverse background and and you know, you're you're really kind of have cultivated some expertise in human behavior. But I want to step back a little bit and really kind of start to talk about meaning and mindfulness in the workplace. And so as you look at the current state of work today, what do you see? And where do you feel like we need to be focusing on? Yeah,

Christine Comaford: 3:03

thank you. The whole person, the whole person is huge. I think when we look at how challenging recruiting is, right now, how challenging retention is right now, what's cool is, you know, speaking of you know, where we need to rebel, right, and HR, we have to look at how humans have been treated in the workplace for decades, I can't say centuries, because it has gotten better, but the past few decades, and when we honor the whole person, there's a couple things that we really need to do right now with how crazy the world is. And you know, there's always a mass shooting and awful stuff happening all the time. And we forget that people are walking into the workplace, whether it's the virtual workplace, or the physical workplace, and there's all this stuff that they're carrying with them. And it's our job as leaders, whether it's the HR leader, whether it's a you know, a business unit leader doesn't matter. It's our job as leaders to help people focus on the outcome that they want, because we're all seeing all the problems, okay. And that's causing tremendous amount of stress and will be called critter state Fight, Flight freeze. response. So if we can use here's just one quick thing we can do. When we when we're talking to people, and they're talking about all their stress, etc, we can we can hold space, you know, acknowledge it, we use what we call an emotion wheel, and we can put one of those, I can send that to you. We can put it on the show page maybe. And when people can look at the emotional meal and they can say how they're feeling and there's no judgment. Wow, today I'm feeling grumpy or tired, or discouraged or overwhelmed or whatever, then then they can show up without having to fake it, or be ashamed of how they're feeling. Then we can say, Ah, thank you for sharing that. And what would you like? Well, I'd like to feel peaceful inside regardless of what's happening outside. Okay, so then we switched from the emotion wheel to a tool called the outcome Frank. So what would you like peaceful inside, regardless of what's happening outside? Thank you, what will happen that do for you? Well, I'll be more productive, I'll be more focused. I won't get so upset by things, I'll be more compassionate with my people, I'll be able to be more present. Great. How will you know when you have it? Well, when I get X amount of work done by lunchtime, when I don't work on the weekends, you know, etc, what's true? And then my favorite question, what a value might you risk or lose? What do you might you risk or lose to be peaceful inside, because that's a choice by friend peaceful inside regards to what's happening outside, oh, you know what, I'm going to have to lose my attachment to feeling victimized by what's happening in the world, I'm gonna have to lose my discouragement or my judgment of the marketing department, you know, whatever, right, whatever their issue is, they then start to look at their ego, their ego mind and how it's sabotaging their peace. And then, of course, the next question is, you know, when we're between, would you like it? Well, you know, what, I want to feel peaceful and sober, regardless of what's happening outside at home, and at work. And I'd really like to start having this experience this week. And then next step, okay, well, I'm going to meet with the marketing department, I'm going to do an outcome frame with them on our relationship, I'm going to do an outcome frame with my spouse at home. So we can work on CO creating a more peaceful space at home, etc. So when we use the emotional meal to just kind of be present to what is actually going on, and not denying it or squishing it or be ashamed of it. And then we use the outcome frame to focus on what we would like, we then shift our energy and we're able to create that meaning that connection, that compassion, that it's okay to be human miss, without, you know, having to dwell and over over emotionality that doesn't result in any productivity, and we help people feel empowered again. Does that makes sense?

Kyle Roed: 7:08

Yeah, and I'm sitting here, like, making, like, making drastic notes trying to catch all that. So. Yeah, that's exactly right. So so, you know, and, you know, one of the podcasts, you can slow down the podcast, so you can, you can catch it all. But I think it's, you know, it's really fascinating. And it's such a departure from what we, you know, kind of used to think about work, which is, you know, you've got your work person, and you've got your home person, and you leave home at home and work at work, you know, and that's, like, when I was learning how to be an HR professional, that was kind of the approach, right? And it was, you know, almost like, the expectation was that when you walk into the building, or in this case, log into your computer, that you like, put on a persona mask, or you put on a you know, or you like, like block out the emotions that you would, you know, were feeling before you entered the workspace. And so, I'm curious is this you know, like this, this approach the emotion wheel, like, like assigning a an emotion without judgment? Is this helping to, you know, eliminate kind of the the conflicts between the work self and the home self and kind of bring them together? Is that kind of the theory here?

Christine Comaford: 8:27

Yes, thank you so much for saying that, Kyle. Because imagine how stressful that is, you know, there's inner conflict, humans do not do well, with inner conflict. Well, part of me wants this, and part of me wants that, and here's who I am at work. And here's wham, really, you know, what I put the mask on? I think it's what you just said, it's so important to and this is where the workplace is, I find, you know, improving, if you will, and that we get to be human, we get to be human. And I want to give you two more tools, you know, everybody knows that some days, they have such a bad day, or they're tied up in their stuff so deeply, that if someone says, you know, what would you like? They say, Well, let me tell you what I would not like. Sometimes I just want to warn everybody, that if somebody is super upset before you do the outcome frame, do one of my fav tools in addition to the outcome, right? We call it maneuvers of consciousness, because I want people to understand how resilient how powerful they are maneuvers of consciousness is when you're just like, an error so grumbly that you can't focus on the good stuff, because you need to purge, energetically. If you look at David Hawkins, MD PhD, his work on the energy of emotions, right? I mean, emotions have energy you need to get them out. You can't just question the maneuvers of consciousness and score steps again, I'm going to make an We're gonna put this on the show page. Alright, four steps, grab your phone, it's three minutes each. Step number one, negative evaluation, you're gonna say out loud, all the things you don't like, about whatever it is you're resisting, I'm really resisting this reorg. Or what's bad about it? Well, it's unfair. And it's a hassle. And we just did a reorg. And around now, you have to let it rip. And you've got to let it rip for three minutes. Okay, Don't chicken out. And when you do it with a buddy, your buddy will egg you on if you start to, if you stop early, and all the buddy does is just hold space. So negative valuation run wherever, wherever. Here's what I don't like about the reorg, for example, and then, timer goes off ding ding, ding. Look at the emotion wheel. How you feel like, well, I'm feeling like angry and I'm feeling disrespected. And right, right, right. Right. Right. Okay, then you have to shake your body out. All right. Now Step number two, curiosity. Three minutes of curiosity. Well, now you're gonna get really curious about the situation. Well, how did it come to be? What's interesting about it? What's familiar about it? What good things come from it? Would this be irritating for me next year? If I lived in another planet? Would this be irritating for me? So you're starting to get really curious about your experience? Notice that you're stepping back. This is mindfulness. Right? We're starting to step back and get witnessing. We're witnessing our emotional state. So Ding, ding, ding. After three minutes of curiosity, shake your body out. Notice already, you're moving through the emotional well, now well, how are you feeling now? Well, I'm feeling kind of pensive. I'm feeling you know, curious. Of course. I'm starting to feel a little more calm. Interesting. Okay. Step three, amazement, three minutes of amazement. Now we're going to be amazed at the situation even came to be, wow, what's fascinating about this, what's amazing about this? What is just kind of unique and special and extremely cool about this? Well, gosh, it's gonna actually give us an opportunity, this reorg to do stuff in a whole different way to see our business in a whole different ways to experiment with matrixes, and stuff like that. So we're amazed for three minutes, ding, ding, ding. We look at the emotional wheel. And we start to really see usually you're on step three, you really see that you're moving into, you know, maybe peaceful, powerful, joyful, wow. I mean, we're only nine minutes into it. This is how resilient we are. Your body out. And now the final three minutes, full appreciation. Wow, ah, I want to honor everything about this. Wow, this is so helpful. This, this reorg that I was resisting is so helpful and getting me to go to the next level, I feel so much gratitude and appreciation. I can honor this. Because, wow, I was even interested in helping make this happen. That's cool. This is affecting the lives of tons of people that school, this is an opportunity for us all to stretch and grow. That's so cool. I'm so thankful for that. So that full appreciation, ding, ding, ding timer goes off. Look how you're feeling now, the emotion will shake your body out. Now, you could go to and what would I like? Well, I'd like to create the most, you know, smooth. I don't know, reorg process possible for everybody? Okay, cool. What would happen? I do press Well, we'd have less upset that, you know, then you go through the whole emotion well, so maneuvers of consciousness is great when you're just like or are. And I find a lot of people when they're upset, especially right now, because the world is fairly upsetting, and are bringing out to work because everybody is let's just be honest about it. Because again, like you just said, we don't have like a work and a human, a personal life, us. The emotions bleed through. If you're having trouble in your relationship, it does affect your work. You know, if your kid is sick, or your kid just got bad grades, it does affect your work. So really honoring that whole person. And then I want to just go over One Last Tool. And that's reframing. And sometimes people say that reframing is sort of Pollyanna. It's sugarcoating stuff. I totally disagree. Reality is what you say it is. And if you say it feels bad than it doesn't feel bad. If you say that it feels good, or even okay, then it will. So it's all about changing the story, which changes the meaning that we make, which changes the belief that we have, which changes our behavior. So if we look at something, and we're saying, We're retelling a story about something, and it makes us feel lousy, right, then what we can do is we can say, Hmm, well, let me look at that story from a different angle. So a really kind of extreme example, was when my mom was dying of leukemia, and she was super angry at her body forgetting leukaemia and just the whole process. So she was being angry for a while. And then one day she said, Okay, I'm done being angry, let's use those weird brain tools that you use of consciousness, right? Because she was too angry for an outcome from that we did the outcome frame. And then she did her own reframing. She said, you know, what I learned from this experience is that leukemia was the greatest thing that that's actually happened to me. And I thought, wow, Mom, tell me about that. And she said, it helped her, ask for help. And she had no idea how many people were there to love, support her and help her. And I was like, Yeah, I mean, like, that is huge. My mom was like, I'll do it myself, I'll do it myself about myself. So just that that, that caused her to have her final month or so of life, to be so incredibly peaceful. And it benefited everybody around her. And it really showed up at her memorial service, you know, people talked about it. So, yeah, wherever you go, there you are, like you just said, and, you know, these are tools for human. And we need to reframe our experience, if it feels bad, as leaders of any type. It's our responsibility to navigate our emotional state, so that we don't spread that, you know, negative energy threats up that do to the whole team.

Kyle Roed: 16:40

Absolutely, you know, I think, first of all, thank you for sharing that story. I think very powerful. And I'm sorry for the loss of your mother, but what a what a powerful example of, you know, isn't that what we all want to, you know, to have peace at the end, I mean, that, you know, and we're all going through our busy lives, and, you know, and trying to do a good job at work and trying to, you know, you know, help our employees and, and, you know, and be good leaders and, but, you know, if, if you don't have some level of peace in your life, you know, you won't be as good. You know, you have to, you know, you have to be aware of this, I do want to call out so it's so funny that you brought up David Hawkins, I literally just finished the book power versus force. Like, like, a couple of weeks ago, and I, I picked it up and so I so for those that haven't read these books, and we'll put some, some links in the show notes, check it out. Like, it's a, it's really kind of a stretch for someone like me who like went to business school and like, you know, you're like, it's a little, it's, it's kind of, honestly, it's a little bit inaccessible when you when you start, but like, really, really powerful way to think about how you interact with others. And, and I actually just ordered a couple more of his books. But you know, I think it's, it's a really interesting read, and I strongly encourage it, and I think it's, you know, it made an impact. And I think if you haven't read some of these books, I think they're really worth it. My two cents.

Christine Comaford: 18:11

Oh, let's talk about books just for a sec. So you probably ordered his next one letting go. Yes. That's next. Bueno. Okay. That's a good one. I'm partway through that on Audible. And it for those of us who have kind of a racing mind, like lots of thoughts up there all the time. Yes. Michael, yeah. Welcome to being human right. Ego to keep distracted and chattering about how disappointed it is at everything. The Untethered Soul, the Untethered Soul by Michael singer is fabulous. Oh, my gosh, I actually recommend getting a hardcopy paperback of it. Because I tell you what's going to happen. Kyle is as you read it, you're going to be underlining sentences because they're so profound. And then on a hard day, whatever you'll stop through, right? And you'll do like, look at some of the stuff you underlined. I've read the book, probably five, six times, and the fourth, fifth and sixth times. It was just, you know, taking maybe maybe 45 minutes, just to skip through all my underlines. It's really fabulous for that it really helps you separate from your ego mind. Because the part of you that is observing your thoughts, that's who you really are. The relentless Chatter is simply your ego mind and it's very important to to realize that that's not you. You are bigger than that. And that's the sort of stuff we cover when we do this cool retreat that we do called Beyond your brain. Oh, before I forget. Everybody, you can go to Christine my first name christine.com traditional spelling ch ri Is it t i n e.com, Christina calm. And there is an emotional resilience mini course that you can take. It's free, you get infographics and get an infographic each week and a little lesson. And feel free to share it with your team just because we want to all be able to navigate our emotional experiences more easily. There's info on our retreat, etcetera. But there's a bunch of great tools there. And I encourage you to go there. But yeah, it's so Untethered Soul is really great, obviously, unbiased, power your tribe? Is our book on building resilient teams. So power your tribe, feel free to check that out. But yeah, and then, you know, once you read Hawkins and Michael singer, you're gonna want to read all their books.

Kyle Roed: 20:52

That's where I'm at right now.

Christine Comaford: 20:55

Good, yay, cool.

Kyle Roed: 20:56

I, you know, I think it's so fascinating. And I, you know, I've been reflecting on this, and I've kind of, you know, went through the pandemic, you know, that every other hit, every other headline was terrible and sad. And just over the last few few months, it's just, you know, there's just so it's so easy to fall into a state of despair. You know, or, or helplessness, you know, and it's, you know, I've personally been on kind of that, you know, that individual journey of trying to control that, you know, that the Ego and the emotion and, you know, really, you know, being reflective, but it's just, it's really hard. But I'm convinced that, like, the new world of work, will honor that journey that we're all on, and actually feel like, it's kind of like, like, I feel like if, if we use the tools correctly, if if we truly focus on it, like the next level up, is actually like reconnecting with our humanity. You know, it's, it's not like disconnect. It's not like, being hyper focused on technology, it's not being hyper focused on, you know, that you don't, you know, leveling up in the sense of like, how much more money can I make, it's like, I think the next level is actually like, like, actually taking a step back and realizing, oh, there's a whole lot more than this. That's where I'm trying to go right now.

Christine Comaford: 22:24

Well, I hope you check out our beyond your brain retreat, because I think you would love love love it. It's, it's in October, it's October 20, to 23rd. And it's in gorgeous, to the Grove, which is Monterey, California, you got your brain.com or just go to christine.com. We have a pointer from there. But yeah, you know, let's, let's be okay. Being human, you know, and I'm seeing that we're starting to change that and that people are getting more flexible hours, because you know, what, if you have a kid at home, didn't need flexible hours, you know, her neuro diversity, you need to provide flexible hours, you know, somebody has ADHD, or OCD or depression or anxiety or whatever. Like, seriously, do we seriously care if they work between nine and five? I mean, seriously. I've got to be at team meeting, you know, but one of our team members, she's, she's crazy creative, between like 10 o'clock PM, you know, and 1am. Like, why would I miss out on that? And a few hours here does view hours there worked that hour when those hours when I prefer to be sleeping myself, but it worked for her, you know? So, absolutely. Let's honor the humans. And of course, Meanwhile, back on Earth, we do have to have the overlap for meetings and stuff like that. But if we're spending our whole day in meetings, well, that's something to look at. Tell me about that about? Yeah.

Kyle Roed: 24:05

Absolutely. You know, I think it's you what's what's really fascinating about it, and I'm curious to get your perspective on this is, you know, there's, there are, there's been so much study about, you know, about humanity and, and spirituality and kind of having, you know, having a meaning beyond, you know, the pursuit of material things. And I know that you've spent, you know, a number of years studying different, you know, different aspects of spirituality. As you were going through that journey and going through some of the, the that learning, what were some common themes that you found that were just kind of universal, that we should aspire to bring into our leadership at our workplaces?

Christine Comaford: 24:51

Yeah. I think one of the things that's really important is like, what? What's real? What really matters here. And my volunteer work that I do is hospice. So I help people die, and help them go through the death process. And I am working with my 57 Lovely soul that I'm supporting through the death process. And it's really important, I think, to every day, think about what your legacy is. Because some people think, oh, yeah, well, when I'm older, I will do this cool thing. And I remember having this conversation with Bill Gates lifetime ago, in 1991. I remember exactly we were doing we were eating tomcod guy soup. And Redmond Washington at the Thai restaurant or Microsoft. And he was like, oh, yeah, well, you know, I'm gonna give a bunch of money to charity, you know, later, you know? And that's why he started doing it now. He's like, Oh, you know, I'll just do it later. That would be my legacy. I'm like, well, like later might not happen. This whole episode, you'd have a full conversation about it. And then what is mom Mary's past? You know, we talked more about it. And, actually, 1990 was when we had the soup. And we talked to more about it. And it took about, Gosh, I don't know, a long time, you know, before he actually never really counted the years before he actually really deeply got into it. But from the beginning, from the very first time that I mentioned a tam, it was about, I think, about 16 years before he was comfortable, just like leaving the leaving Microsoft and actually, wholeheartedly going to the Gates Foundation. But I want us to look at like, what is the legacy that we're leaving every day? How did we show up for ourselves and others every day? And when we're having a grumpy day, it's okay, to be honest about it. You know, it's okay to say, Wow, I'm both really irritated. And I'm irritated about this. There's a mess. And you know what? I'm going to shift my state just to hold space for me, everybody for just a couple minutes. You know, while I do maneuvers of consciousness, or an outcome frame or whatever, but I think being present to who we are where we are letting people to, like be okay. With that. I think it's really big.

Kyle Roed: 27:49

Absolutely. There's so much judgment, right. I mean, it's a lot of it's personal. Yes, exactly. Yeah, you think you I can't be grumpy?

Christine Comaford: 27:59

Yeah, I can't I have to Yeah. And here's the thing, I get that you're a leader, and you have to show up for others. And one way to show Brothers is to say, here's my humanity. Here's, here's my humanity. Because, you know, we, I really believe that everything happens for us, not to us. I believe that we actually choose the experiences that we have in our life. And I know that some stretch for some people. I don't believe in victim mentality. And I like to look at whatever happens in my life, even the really hard stuff and say, How is this happening for me? How is this helping me be a more kind, loving, present, wise, human being? You know, it's like the story that Steve Jobs used to talk about polishing rocks. And I'll tell you really quickly if you haven't heard it. So Steve Jobs used to do, you know, lawn mowing and stuff for one of his neighbors when he was a kid. And one day, his neighbor said, hey, you know, come on over, let me show you something cool. And the neighbor had like this motor attached to a coffee can and old coffee cans for those of us who remember those. And he said, go grab some rock from the garden. So young Steve grabs rock puts them in this. Can they turn the motor on? It's crazy loud. Oh, sorry. In the can was the water and some really coarse sand, throw the rocks and turn the motor on? Really, really loud. And then he says to young Steve, come back tomorrow. Dave comes back the next morning. And the neighbor has opened the can and the rough, ugly, you know, rock from the garden are beautiful, and they're shiny, and they're smooth on the edges. And Steve was so moved by that. And it took him quite some time to understand what that meant to and why that whatever eight or 10 year old Steve Jobs was so intrigued by that, but it was about in his 30s when he realized that's what we do with each other We Polish each other, the water is emotion, the grid is conflict. The rocks are us. And as we bang against each other with all that emotion and conflict, we smooth each other's edges off.

Kyle Roed: 30:21

That's powerful. You know, but I think it's so it's so true. And I think it goes back to reframing. Right. You know, if if you've made that decision, then, you know, you're in a different mental state than somebody who has it, right. Yeah. Yeah. So, well, I, I can I can honestly say, you know, I think I've got the title of this, this podcast, I'm going to call it, you know, soup with Bill Gates, because I think you're probably our first guest that said, stupid. Okay, so that's super impressive. But, you know, I think this, you know, this conversation is just really powerful. And I think, you know, I, I would strongly encourage, you know, an HR professional, if you're, if you're struggling, if you're, if you're having a bad day, bad month, bad year, bad couple years, you know, if you don't take the time to take a step back and focus on some of these, these topics, we'll have, you know, the information in the show notes. And, but I think it's just, I think we owe it to ourselves to be focused on this. And that's just gonna make our workplaces and ultimately make us you know, better. With that being said, I want to shift gears, I want to go into the rebel HR flash round. So I got three questions I'm gonna ask, and I'm fascinated to hear your responses. They're ready. Ready? Okay, perfect. Question number one, where does HR need to rebel?

Christine Comaford: 31:47

What we've been talking about a friend, letting the person be the whole person, without indulging in emotion, excessive emotionality, but letting them be the whole person, and providing tools like the ones we just taught on this podcast, providing these sorts of tools to their people to navigate their emotional state?

Kyle Roed: 32:05

Absolutely. And I think, you know, to add on to that, here's, you know, one thing that I've really kind of, I struggle with, and I will continue to struggle with is HR is so often pushed to make judgments of others. And it is really, really hard to suspend judgment in our role. But if you can, you know, if you can use these types of tools and be focused on that, you will be more effective. But it's hard. It's really hard.

Christine Comaford: 32:37

That we have to say, this person isn't the right fit for this role, because the truth, and frankly, you and I both know, when the person switches to a different role, they do breathe a sigh of relief. So the question is, can we say this person isn't quite the right fit for this role without condemning a person? So I like discernment versus judgment. Let's just try this on for size. Judgment. There's condemnation there is we're condemning the person. Discernment is judgment, if you will, without the condemnation, so cigarette smoking, and he is a great example. A lot of people say, Oh, gross cigarettes, that's so gross. judge, Judge judge, right. For me, I just say, you know, cigarette butts, they're not my jam. They're not my thing. Right? They're just, they're just not something I want to do. And that, to me is discernment. There's no judgment, there's no condemning. There's just Oh, it's just not my thing. So if we can use discernment, oh, this person just isn't the right fit for this role. It doesn't mean that's a bad person. You know, we have to separate the person from their behavior. Absolutely not.

Kyle Roed: 33:46

That's a power. That's powerful shift. Question number two, who should we be listening to?

Christine Comaford: 33:52

Our people. And, and I mean, skip level all over the place. Because we need to get a feeling for the long term tenured people, the brand new people, the people in the middle up down across the org chart. We need to be listening to our people because they know what it's like. They really know what the experience is like, we often don't Absolutely.

Kyle Roed: 34:20

Listen to your people. I don't think anybody's gonna argue with you on that. Christine. All right. Last question. How can our listeners connect with you and and learn more about some of the work that you do?

Christine Comaford: 34:30

Yeah, they can go to christine.com which will point you to our smart tribes Institute website, the mini courses I described the retreat that I described christine.com is just kind of the fast way.

Kyle Roed: 34:47

Awesome, we will have that in the show notes. So open up the, the the podcast player, I got to get a bunch of book links because we talked about a bunch of different books, but we'll make sure we get that available to the to the listeners. Christine, you've just been an absolute joy to have on the podcast. I really appreciate all of the work that you've done and the work that you're continuing to do. And thank you so much for joining us today.

Christine Comaford: 35:09

Thank you, Kyle. Appreciate you.

Kyle Roed: 35:12

Thank you. All right. That does it for the rebel HR podcast. Big thank you to our guests. Follow us on Facebook at rebel HR podcast, Twitter at rebel HR guy, or see our website at rebel human resources.com. The views and opinions expressed by rebel HR podcast are those the authors and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of any of the organizations that we represent. No animals were harmed during the filming of this podcast. Maybe