RHR 128: Therapeutic Coaching with Heather Marasse

Heather Marasse: 0:00

Business systems are a preservative, right? We create a system to keep things going predictably, in a certain direction. Human Systems are creative. We're chaotic, we're messy, but that's also where the potential is. And so business systems are designed to contain things. But we don't want to do that to human beings. Sure, we want some predictability and output Sure. But if that's all we're getting, we're not getting the whole person.

Kyle Roed: 0:23

This is the rebel HR Podcast, the podcast where we talk to HR innovators about all things people leadership. If you're looking for places to find about new ways to think about the world of work, this is the podcast for you. Please subscribe from your favorite podcast listening platform today. And leave us a review revelon HR rebels. Welcome back, rebel HR listeners extremely excited for our guests today. With us, we have Heather morass, she it has been in business for over 25 years in business and management consulting, she works with a number of really large organizations to help them figure out meaningful and productive past action, while strengthening the human side of their business. Welcome to show Heather, extremely excited to have you here.

Heather Marasse: 1:15

Thank you so much for having me.

Kyle Roed: 1:17

Well, I can already tell that this is going to be a really good conversation. And when the opportunity presented itself to to meet with you, here, I jumped at the chance because I think that some of the work that you're doing in your space is really critical. And so today, we're going to be talking all about how being human is good for business. So before we jump into that, I'd like to just understand a little bit more about your background, and what got you interested in this topic in this focus.

Heather Marasse: 1:52

My background is in business, I was in marketing and sales support. And about 14 years in, I started to realize I was far more interested in the human side of the business, then some of the more product development, new product issues that were next in my career path, and I realized I my fascination with what it takes to get work done amongst my fellow colleagues, was an area that I wanted to study more, I was just fascinated by human beings, myself included.

Kyle Roed: 2:30

Same here, you know, and I think it's, it's one of those things where, you know, I got into the business world, and then I just kind of got fascinated with, for me it was how to lead others. Because I wasn't very good at it. And I thought I was you know, it was like this, this hubris. And I'm like, Well, okay, how do I get good, and I realized, the way you get good is by understanding others, right, and understanding how the brain works. So you've been, you've been doing business and management consulting for years, you've worked with a ton of really, really large clients. When When was the awakening for you? That the humanity was good for business? You know, what was kind of that aha moment for you?

Heather Marasse: 3:14

Well, I think it was like you, I got promoted to a level where what I knew, and, you know, my brilliance didn't matter all that much to the people who are working for me. And I noticed that I was trying to help them. And they were so gracious and tolerant of my misses, really, I was not being helpful. And yet they still let me be with them and work with them. I started to realize what their what what they need from me, I'm not giving them. So what is that? And I started to get very curious, first of all, about my own self, like, what do I need to hear? And I started to realize I need to understand better myself, and how people work together. And what it is that a leader provides, beyond knowing the business, you know, the nuts and bolts of the business, there's something here, there's an inbuilt visible element that I want to learn more about. And that's what took me on a path that started to understand things like self awareness here and developing oneself from a leadership perspective, not just a management perspective. Learning about the how and why not just the what. Yeah. It's all about being human.

Kyle Roed: 4:42

Absolutely, and I you know, I think I can guarantee you that many of our listeners are, are nodding right now, you know, with this with this podcast, because it you know, it's one thing to be really, technically proficient at a job that you do, right. It's a whole nother thing to influence. and inspire and engage other people who may not think the way you think or feel the way you feel about what you're what you're asking them to do. So as you think about kind of that, you know that that introspection and the kind of the personal development that that is natural as we think in these terms, where would you recommend somebody starts, you know, how, once somebody's kind of had this awakening, where do you? Where do you go from there? What recommendations do you have for us there?

Heather Marasse: 5:34

Well, I really excellent place to start, is to hire a coach, to work with a leadership coach, who can introduce you to learning about yourself, learning about how humans work, and to be a safe place for you to grow and explore places where you feel vulnerable and unequipped. So they can point you in the right direction to learn what you need to learn, but they're also a safe space to, to kind of unravel some of the questions you have, and find a place to get them answered. Often there, you can answer them yourself, but you didn't realize it.

Kyle Roed: 6:22

Yeah, absolutely. And I think, you know, it's one of those things that I'm pretty passionate about, and whether it's a coach, or it's a group that you're a part of, maybe it's just a, you know, maybe have a mentor. But, you know, it can be really, really isolating to be in human resources, or just to be in leadership in general. And you can't do it in a vacuum. Right? I mean, you know, there's no learning that really works well, when you just kind of sit there in space. And, you know, think about it.

Heather Marasse: 6:58

Right? So true. I like what you said, one of my business partners, Wendy, Apple, has a quote, she uses it takes two to to no one. It's hard to see myself without some reflection. And so that's where mentoring coaching or groups who are in a, you know, learning program together, or even a really great team, that you're a member of where the guards come down, and you're starting to realize you're all developing something exciting together, not just what you're working on, but a way of working, and you're learning things about yourself. So it's the whole opportunity to grow in partnership and relationship with others.

Kyle Roed: 7:45

Absolutely, I want to kind of focus on on one of the comments that she made, because I think it's a really important point, and that's in the you phrased it as, you know, the guards come down. Right. And, and I think that that's, that's something that can be really, really tough, especially in, you know, a workplace culture where, you know, authenticity isn't maybe appreciated as much, or, you know, or, or somebody just just isn't comfortable doing that. So, as we think about it in the organizational context, you know, what, how do we think about influencing cultures and organizations to allow for, you know, that space kind of that humanity to come through into the workplace?

Heather Marasse: 8:37

Right? Well, what's key is to start uncovering the potential that people have, people bring a lot of potential to work. And unless we're safe, unless we feel like it's safe to be our whole selves, you're not going to get everything they've got to give. And the only renewable resource in any organization is, it's human beings, everything else gets spent. But what renews human beings is the opportunity to learn and grow. And so that's why it's so important to invest in your people in best in the not just in the hard skills as they typically are called. But also in, you know, you probably hate this term as much as I do, but the soft skills, because those are the hardest skills. They are it's the intangibles, it's though, you know, learning about ourselves and what kind of habitual barriers show up when we're trying to get work done together. And why is that? And to understand our humanity, actually helps us get better work done. Yeah.

Kyle Roed: 9:48

We don't have time to, to have a, you know, a conversation about soft skills. And, and that phrase that you know, makes like, it makes it feel like they're unimportant because I have every single leader that is trying to hire right now I have yet to meet one that that says, you know, I really don't want somebody that can communicate well, you know, I don't need that, or I don't need someone that can work well with others, or I don't need someone that can follow directions, you know, the first time you like, what, what is soft about those like, like, those are like, those are just, those are just requirements? No, yeah, those are necessary. And, and, in my opinion, probably more critical than some of the some of the technical stuff as long as somebody has, you know, the baseline understanding of some of the functions that they need to execute if they have a willingness to learn, and, you know, and, and the, quote, soft skills to learn what they need to learn, then, yeah, I hire that person all day long, versus the jerk that can't work with others that doesn't communicate well.

Heather Marasse: 11:00

Yeah, I know.

Kyle Roed: 11:02

So I want to, I want to kind of take the conversation in that direction. So we're starting to talk a little bit about soft skills. I'm really fascinated to learn more about your approach into coaching, because I know some of the work that you've done has really started to focus on the therapeutic approach in and thinking a little bit more broadly, about coaching outside of what we would think, traditionally, a business coach would do. So walk us through the approach as it relates to how you look at coaching.

Heather Marasse: 11:32

Okay? Well, first of all, our view of coaching is that it's not remedial, people are not broken. And we're not here to fix people. As a matter of fact, human beings don't really respond well to a problem solution model. Because what you end up doing is you're if you're always solving problems, you just start generating an endless loop instead of what if people are whole to start with, and what's needed here is a return to wholeness. And so this started to come out more and more as the pandemic emerged, where the world changed dramatically. Stress went up exponentially. Our whole existence was under threat. It was, it's, we're now two and a half years into it. So it's hard to remember. But for a while, we didn't even know how it was transmitted. And we were locked down in our houses, some people were afraid to open windows. So it was, we went through an existential crisis. And what we started to see in our practice, both in consulting and coaching, but primarily through our coaching, one on one conversations was mental health became much more of a, an open topic. I can't tell you how many clients we would speak to in a coaching call, who would mention casually? Well, when I was talking with my therapist the other day, or my wife and I were in counseling last week, and you know, it just got started to become part of the conversation, the guards went down. And we coincidentally had taken on our own development in a field called ifs, also known as internal family systems. And this is a proach, a therapeutic approach a psychotherapeutic approach that treats people as whole. And we have multiple parts, when you think about it, we often will say a part of me wants to do this, but another part of me wants to do that. And what it recognizes is that inside of this multiplicity of dimensions of our personality, there's a core. And that core is who we really are. Those multiple parts emerge as coping strategies when we feel threatened or stressed. Once we start to have awareness of those parts, we can get some distance from them, and not be in the grip of them, and put them to the side and simply be present with what's here. And a lot of mischief stops. And we just are ourselves whole and complete. And so as we started to integrate some of the approaches that the IFS therapeutic approach brings, we're starting to have more success. And more importantly, actually, completely importantly, our clients are having more success and coping with what was in front of them. Yeah.

Kyle Roed: 14:49

You know, I think it's really powerful and I sit here listening to it, you know, my mind's going a lot of different directions, but the, the first direction that my mind went when you When you explain, you know, people are our whole, to start with is, you know, in my heart of hearts, like, I know that, right. And I think that, you know, we all know that and, you know, we, we all, that's just kind of how we operate in our world. But so often in in corporate America, you are just constantly judging people on their competencies or lack thereof. And to the point that you're labeling people as problem performers, or, or some people are our higher potential than others, and, you know, are the shining stars and, and, you know, we have such a tendency to to, like, force rank. And inherently that, that theory or that that methodology tends to kind of prompt us not to think that people are whole, to start with, to think that people are missing a part, and we just need to help them, you know, solve that, that missing part. So, I think it's, it's a really, it's, for me, it's a little bit of a paradigm shift. But I think it's a really important one to think through. And, and, I mean, I think, you know, reflecting back on the, you know, the, the pandemic, you know, what was, what's so interesting about that is, is, you know, I, I had a front row seat to people who were becoming more whole and authentic and real, right in front of me, because I mean, we were, you know, yeah, we were day to day operating in the state of sheer, you know, fear for safety and health of our employees. Yes. And I mean, if that doesn't make you real, I don't know what does. But that's true. But after it, the the cohesiveness of the team was amazing. And the the team that whether through that storm together, is significantly stronger than the team that went out. Right. And so, you know, yes, it was, it was human, but it was also like, really, really good. From a business standpoint, as well, is Does that, does that reflect with what what you've seen with your clients?

Heather Marasse: 17:16

Yes, absolutely. You know, what started happening is? Well, you know, people started to realize that their life was actually the superset and work as a subset of it. And what do I want to do with the subset, because I spent an enormous amount of time there. And so there was self selection happening. There was more authenticity, people were not willing to tolerate what they, you know, would come to coaching call us with where they were having conflicts and not sure how to address them. Courage showed up in a new way. Because, hey, I am, I am more than just this job. And I need to end life is short, and precious. And so I can't play a part anymore, I have to be me. And I want to know who you are. So there was a depth, there was like a longing for depth of connection that we were forced into. Because we were actually disconnected physically, it was very interesting.

Kyle Roed: 18:23

That is, you know, it's, it's fascinating to think about, and I think it's, I think it's really important to, to think about that. And, you know, we think about it from a, you know, from a pure business perspective, if you've got people who are, like, you know, acting, and their job, or they're, they're truly just kind of playing a game and trying to trying to fit into the mold that they think they should be into. I mean, that's a miserable experience, and eventually, they're not gonna, they're not going to do very well, right, you know, you shouldn't want that in your organization. And so, you know, to that point, you know, it makes me wonder if some of the, you know, the fear and of turnover, and, you know, some of these, some of the churn that's happened in some of these roles, actually wonder if it might actually be be net benefit for, you know, maybe short term pain for a company, and a little bit stressful, certainly for an HR practitioner. But, you know, long term, it could actually be really, really good because it could be kind of a realignment of people's priorities. And I actually think the, the companies that are, you know, responsive to this and are putting their people first and truly thinking about these things and putting, you know, putting support in action for their people and having a great culture. You know, ultimately I just think that's kind of how they win in this capitalist society. The the best employee There's are, are ultimately going to win in this type of an environment, right?

Heather Marasse: 20:04

You don't want people playing a part of themselves, you want everything that God to give, and we tend to give freely when we feel safe and and that we're, we're a fit with where we're with the team we're on. Right?

Kyle Roed: 20:22

Absolutely. So, you know, you alluded to this and and, you know, certainly it's an extremely critical component of, of anybody's performance at work. But, you know, mental health is such a, it's such a critical topic. And I think it's actually now just just kind of getting the, you know, the deserved recognition and support from from a workplace. But over the last few years, as you've seen this in your clients, and as you've done some work with some some of your, some of the people that you're helping, what are some trends that you're seeing in kind of that, that mental health space that, you know, maybe are becoming more prevalent? And how are employers and leaders you know, helping to address and support their employees that are dealing with these types of challenges?

Heather Marasse: 21:13

Well, some of the trends we're seeing are people being more open about the mental health issues and their families, you know, supporting their, their children supporting their elders, supporting themselves, there's a more this stigma around mental health is gradually falling. And part of that is because, again, it comes back to the province solution model, mental health isn't, isn't it, there's, it's such a thing, it's healthy. And it's not a problem, if I'm attending to it. It's actually a holistic practice. And so, for me to acknowledge that I have a teenager who's gotten mixed up with the wrong crowd, and has been experimenting with drugs. So we are working with a counselor or a therapist, to help our family system through this difficult time. And, by the way, I may need a week off in the next month, because we're going to go to a facility and, you know, have some time as families, that sort of thing is, is being spoken now. In not everywhere, but certainly in I'm hearing way more of it. Well, we're just seeing a lot more investment in coaching. And coaching is starting to be seen as a professional support versus a remedial support. And because when you think about all professionals have coaches, and most professionals also have therapists. And it's not because they have mental health problems. It's because it's a holistic approach to life. And especially when you're in a high performance game, you want all the help you can get.

Kyle Roed: 23:06

Absolutely. You know, it's funny that, and I love this, this, this problem, solution model, you know, approach and it, you know, and I'm partially to blame, too, because I'm always the well, you know, I mean, I was I'm in the manufacturing environment, right? So it's always like, root cause analysis, five, why's figure out the root cause, fix the problem? And then, you know, fix it forever, and then it never comes back. Right. I mean, that's, that's ingrained in almost every aspect of corporate life, at least in the, at least in the Western world. But, but, but because of that, it's, you can't, you can't think about people like that, right? You know, like, I'm talking about a process, right. And, and that's really what like those types of systems are intended to focus on. So often, we think about that, in the world of like, HR, and we just tried to kind of fit that fit that type of, you know, process into, you know, a box with a person with a talent assessment. It just doesn't really work. Right? It's, it's kind of a domain

Heather Marasse: 24:08

error.

Kyle Roed: 24:08

Yeah, that's good. That's how

Heather Marasse: 24:11

we treat humans with business system logic by humans, our business systems, our intent, or our preservative, right? We, we create a system to keep things going predictably, in a certain direction. Human Systems are creative, or chaotic, we're messy, but that's also where the potential is. And so business systems are designed to contain things, but we don't want to do that to human beings. Sure, we want some predictability and output Sure, but if that's all we're getting, we're not getting the whole person.

Kyle Roed: 24:44

I love this topic. It's like the difference between like, you know, eighth grade algebra and chaos theory, right, like people, people are way more complex, then, you know, this plus y plus x minus this equals whatever Right, it's like, it's just much more complex. The other thing that the other thing that prompted, you know, some thought here is it's like, you know, actually don't even really enjoy the term mental health, you know, I think we should just call it brain health because it really, it's physical health, right? You know, it's like, I can't say, you know, I need to go exercise. And but once I exercise, then I don't have to exercise anymore. Like, I just want to workout enough over the next week, so that I don't have to exercise the next month, but it doesn't work that way. Right? Like you. You have to keep doing it. Otherwise, you'll gain those five pounds right back. Right. You know, it's just, it's, it's just kind of it's part of being human. And I'm glad that we're all talking about

Heather Marasse: 25:44

now. I am too.

Kyle Roed: 25:48

So I'm curious, because I can guarantee you that there's, you know, maybe not many of our listeners, but I guarantee you that there are some listeners out there, and certainly some business practitioners that, that view this as, you know, kind of a passing fad, right, like, oh, mental health, this is the new hot thing in the workplace and what you know, and it's, you know, I can't wait for this to pass or, you know, it's like when, you know, when do we get back to, quote, normal? So, do you see us going back to, you know, a workplace where this isn't talked about as much? Or do you think there's been enough of a shift now that this is just here to stay? And that organizations need to start to figure it out? What do you think there have been?

Heather Marasse: 26:32

Well, I don't think there's gonna be any going back. And I think normal is a bit of a math, I think that what is emerging here is our humanity in the face of some very difficult circumstances. And that affects business. And, you know, we have a choice, it can affect us in a good way. Or we can try and fall back asleep. If we fall back asleep, we're gonna get what we always had. But I think the future is calling for something different. And businesses have had to get creative and innovative. And it's been amazing to see some of the innovations and adaptations that companies have made through this crisis. And I think, I don't think we're like, why would we want to stop that?

Kyle Roed: 27:26

personal comfort for somebody that doesn't feel comfortable? Right. I think that's, that's, I think that's why somebody would, wouldn't want to deal with it. But yeah, I mean, I couldn't agree more, I think and, and if you think that, you think that the generation that is entering the workforce right now out of college, if you think they don't care about this, and oh, by the way, that's the future of your organization, if you if you're going to be around for more than five years, you know, that they're asking for this. Plus, like, 10x,

Heather Marasse: 28:00

you know, so grateful to them. I'm so grateful. I really am. First of all, because I can't see, you know, we've left them something that's a bit of a challenge. And so I have compassion for what we put into their hands, but also, that they're demanding more out of their likes. Good for them. Yeah, uh, you know, I don't, who wants to fall back asleep? Yeah.

Kyle Roed: 28:29

Yeah, I think it's gonna be really interesting. And I think it's, you know, it well, when I came out of college, it was, you know, everybody was angry at, you know, Gen X was kind of middle management at that point, every was angry at millennials, people are still angry at millennials, even though they're like, you know, the old ones are in their 40s. And they have mortgages and a bunch of kids and there. But now, people are finally, you know, frustrated with Gen Z, but I just feel like, it's like, it's just a natural progression of our society that like, you know, you know, if you grew up with more than your parents had, you're going to expect to want to build a society like that for your kids. And, you know, and you continue to ask for more and more, and I feel like that's kind of how we evolve. Right is, I mean, isn't that kind of the point of right society?

Heather Marasse: 29:21

I would say so. And I think if you're paying attention to human evolution, including your own, that's got to be good for business. Yeah.

Kyle Roed: 29:32

Yeah. Yeah. I couldn't agree more. So and, and I, I agree with you in the statement as well, that, you know, I hope it doesn't change. I mean, I don't, I don't want to be, you know, an HR person that says, oh, mental health is not something that of mental health of my employees is not something that I care about like that. Like, that's just, that's not right. You know, that's not, that's not good. That's not a good leader. Right. And it's And it's something that I think that if your employees are comfortable, you know, being authentic and, and, and taking whatever resources you you, you provide so that they can live healthy, happy lives with, you know, and be productive in your work environment. You know, that's that's a win win, right? I mean, you should all aspire to that. So,

Heather Marasse: 30:22

yeah. And remember the hubris aspect of this? Pretty much everybody I know. And I've run across in my life has had a mental health crisis of some sort, or had been affected by somebody they love who's had one. And so being equipped with some tools and support to navigate through that in the best possible way. That's, that's a good thing. Yeah.

Kyle Roed: 30:52

Absolutely. It's still, you know, it's the old saying, well, it never happened to me until it did hurt. Yeah, yeah. Everything was fine until it wasn't. And I don't Yeah, I don't know, anybody that has not had to deal with some level of, of mental health concerns in their family, period. I don't I don't know. I honestly can't think of anybody right now, that hasn't had somebody, you know, in their family that has had to deal with this. So like, this is this is, again, this is a human condition, we just we need to understand it.

Heather Marasse: 31:28

Yeah, I think what's changed is that we never used to feel that it was permitted to talk about. Yeah, like, we were isolating ourselves and each other when we didn't have to.

Kyle Roed: 31:42

Yeah. But going back to your kind of your original point. And where to start is I think that's also, you know, that's a big benefit of having external support as well, whether that's a therapist, a coach, you know, mentor, you know, friends that you can talk about, you know, challenges with, you know, you've got to build that, you know, that that network and have that support function in your in your life or, or, you know, it's pretty hard, pretty hard to, to work through these sorts of things, right.

Heather Marasse: 32:15

Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

Kyle Roed: 32:18

All right. What, this has just been a wonderful conversation, I think, a really powerful conversation. I mean, I, you know, I've, I've made a couple of notes that certainly you've, you've pushed me to think a little bit differently about some of the ways that that I personally operate in my business. And so I thank you for that. Heather. I do want to shift gears and I'm fascinated to hear your response to the rebel HR flash round questions. Are you ready? Sure. All right, here we go. All right, where does HR need to rebel?

Heather Marasse: 32:51

Coaching is not remedial professionals, as coaches. And they don't have to be formal coaches. But you know, people need mentor support, people need support.

Kyle Roed: 33:08

I love that. And I think it's such, you know, to go back to one of the points you made earlier, I think this is a really, really important point. So I want to say it again, you know, we're not here to fix people. Right? It's, it's, it's, people are whole. And I think that's a really, that's a really different way to approach versus, you know, what some of the traditional approaches are towards employee development and leadership development. So I really appreciate that. That context, question number two, who should we be listening to?

Heather Marasse: 33:41

Well, there are a few people that I think have a lot to say in this area. I think Brene Brown, is, has all kinds of great things to contribute to this field of humanity in business. Dr. Gabor Ma Tei. He is a he's a therapist. He's a medical doctor. He's an author, speaker. And he looks at human development through science and compassion. And he has some wonderful books, and he has written one called the myth of normal, I highly recommend it. Dick Schwartz, he's the father of internal family systems. And he's somebody I studied with and my colleagues have studied with and he has brought a rather revolutionary approach to psychotherapy. And finally, Russ Hudson, he is somebody that my colleagues and I have studied with on the Enneagram we never mentioned that on our call. But the Enneagram is a fantastic framework for building self awareness and appreciation for our humanity.

Kyle Roed: 34:55

Awesome, I know one of those, so I've got my homework to do. First Yeah, but yeah, I love the I love the intersection of, you know, kind of therapeutics, you know, some of the scientific research. And then yeah, and we give us like a, give us like a one minute overview of the Enneagram. Because I think it's a really fascinating I was, I was looking at it, we just didn't get a chance to talk about it. So give us like the five cent like overview of what that's what that's about.

Heather Marasse: 35:27

Well, the Enneagram is a framework that eliminates nine patterns of thinking, feeling and acting that all human beings use to cope with life. And we always had one that becomes more dominant, particularly at times of stress. So it's a beautiful instrument to build self awareness so that when we're getting gripped by that patterning, it gives us a chance to get free of it, and again, returned to wholeness. So, I could say so much more. But that's a nutshell.

Kyle Roed: 36:07

Well, if you want to learn more, you know, we'll have we'll have a link to your website. And there's, there's a link, and there's a book and there's all sorts of but I think it goes back to exactly what you discussed in the beginning, which is kind of that's that self discovery. Right. And that self awareness and you know, kind of starts there, right?

Heather Marasse: 36:24

Yeah. appreciation for the diversity of our fellow humans.

Kyle Roed: 36:29

Absolutely. Absolutely. All right. Last question. How can our listeners can connect with you and learn more?

Heather Marasse: 36:36

Well, you can certainly listen, we have a podcast as well. It's called being human is good for business. And we have a we're on all of the various listening sites, podcast sites. And um, you can also find us at our website, which is trilogy effect.com.

Kyle Roed: 36:56

Absolutely. We'll have those links in the show notes. So open up your podcast player, check it out. Just really appreciate you being here today. Hi, there. I think some really great content. I appreciate the work you're doing out there, and helping us all be a little bit more human. Thank you very much. All right. That does it for the rebel HR podcast. Big thank you to our guests. Follow us on Facebook at rebel HR podcast, Twitter, at rebel HR guy, or see our website at rebel human resources.com. The views and opinions expressed by rebel HR podcast are those the authors and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of any of the organizations that we represent. No animals were harmed during the filming of this podcast. Maybe