RHR 129: Don't be Sh**ty with Katherine McCord

Katherine McCord: 0:00

You're going to say the wrong thing. You're gonna do the wrong thing. It's what you do when somebody comes to you and says no, that wasn't it. That's That's what matters. I've said Dobby things. I've done Dobby things I still do God, I still do. And it's just what you do in to fix it to make it right, because inclusion is about your mindset, and about your mentality and about your mission. It's not about every little tiny action that you do.

Kyle Roed: 0:23

This is the rebel HR Podcast, the podcast, where we talk to HR innovators about all things people leadership. If you're looking for places to find about new ways to think about the world of work, this is the podcast for you. Please subscribe from your favorite podcast listening platform today. And leave us a review. Rebel on HR rebels. Welcome back, rebel HR listeners extremely excited for the conversation this week. I'm just sitting here regretting that I didn't hit record, like 10 minutes ago, because Catherine and I have been having a great conversation. I can't wait to continue the conversation recorded here. So with us, we have Catherine McCord. She is the president of Titan management, an organization that is focused on people, and making sure that we are inclusive, innovative, and doing the right thing by our teams. Welcome to the show. Catherine,

Katherine McCord: 1:14

thank you so much for having me. I'm super stoked to be here.

Kyle Roed: 1:18

Well, I am super stoked to have you. And, you know, I, I just am so honored to meet you. And I think that this is going to be a wonderful conversation. And we're very like minded. I think our listeners are going to enjoy this. So I want to start off just by understanding a little bit more about you and your background. So who is Catherine McCord?

Katherine McCord: 1:39

Frightening question, and you know what, I'm gonna really limit the answer, so that frighten your listeners away. So I, I run tight management, it's something very started back in 2014, because I was working in the recruiting realm and decided, You know what, I love the work, but I don't love how it's being done by other people. So I stuck out to do it better. And to really, to really also include with, with all of the talent acquisition aspect, a lot of the consulting because I've worked with startups for years and that type of thing. So I just kind of dove in. And inclusion matters very much to me. So we've been doing this now for going, oh, gosh, over eight years. I love every second of it. So we focus very much on the inclusion aspect I've grown to really have a passion for neurodiversity, specifically, and I developed an HR technology two years ago, I who am completely technologically inept, that designed and developed out a an HR tech that fires the resume and reverse bias and application process. And so basically, who I am, is I live, eat, live and breathe by my three missions, which are integrity, inclusion and innovation. And that's it, that's who I am.

Kyle Roed: 2:55

Well, I love that. And, and I want to dive into that, because I think it's really it's really important to, to bring light to some of the challenges related to applicant tracking systems, specifically some of the biases that exist. So So obviously, you saw the need, despite maybe your your tech savviness or, or lack thereof, went out and and created this so as so so what what motivated you to do that? What was the the catalyst that where you said, This is it, I'm just going to create my own thing.

Katherine McCord: 3:35

I honestly, part of it was delirium because I was driving to the airport at 430 in the morning. And part of it was just good old fashioned sleep deprived delirium. But But ultimately, the motivation behind all of it was that I've seen just for years, people struggle with applicant tracking systems, whether it's the neurodiverse community, just it not being conducive to to their variations, whether it's applicants just being confused or tired. Did you know so, I'm going to, I'm going to really call out Walmart on this one. So it takes an hour to apply to be a cashier at Walmart or greeter at Walmart, like our you're gonna mentally exhausted buddy for an hour of their life for that, like, come on now. So just years of watching this and understanding that the resume causes more problems than it helps and that it solves. And so I decided that there needed to be something that was better than the resume something that worked more effectively to help people align themselves with the job and something that remove bias because, I mean, we're humans, we have biases in our brains, but we need to get rid of them.

Kyle Roed: 4:51

Absolutely. You know, it's funny, you mentioned that, retailers specifically it wasn't Walmart, but I worked for a much very similar the organization when I first started, and they had the exact same thing where it would you had to do a test, you had to do like, you had to fill in all of your information, like, five different times. And then even like, and then even after all of that, then everybody got rated like red, yellow, green, so that on the recruiter side of it, like, all it was, was a name and and red, yellow, green, and red light

Katherine McCord: 5:31

green light with candidates basically.

Kyle Roed: 5:33

Exactly. Yeah, and it's exactly what you said, like, at a certain point, it's like, well, these are these are people like, How can I? How can I rate them as a read, you know, quote, read person, based upon, you know, sitting and taking this ridiculous multiple choice tests that I would probably fail. Yeah, exactly.

Katherine McCord: 5:57

Have you taken this? Do you know how you went to this test? This is ridiculous. And I have such a thing. I have, oh, that could be a whole other show about my my tirade on personality tests assessments being used as a part of the application process, I think they have great value wasn't he's hired to help you learn how to manage them, how to communicate with them, things like that. But it does not help for hiring a person. You know, learn how to interview, learn how to be good at your job. Maybe you do that, instead of putting all this pressure on these people whose job it is not to interview,

Kyle Roed: 6:29

you know? Yeah, we don't we probably don't have that's a whole nother show. But like, I can tell you like, you know, like those personality assessments, especially when it comes to like hiring for me, I think it's just it's a great way to make sure that you've got confirmation bias as a part of your hiring process. Yeah, right. That's just that's what you're doing. Hiring managers like, oh, this person, this person looks like my profile. So I liked him. Yeah. Like, that's, that's what you're completely counterproductive.

Katherine McCord: 6:54

You actually want people different than you when you hire, that's what I always have to try to teach people is no, no, you don't want 50 of the same even if that person is really good at their job, for instance, I'm awesome. I always have been awesome at my job. But believe me, when I tell you that you do not want to be on a team. It would be awful, terrible, terrible experience.

Kyle Roed: 7:14

I don't know about that. Katherine. Balance is important. That balance is important. Right? So So I think, you know, it's a great pivot back to, you know, the topic that we're actually supposed to be talking about, which is really like inclusion and in you know, and being inclusive in the applicant tracking system. So, you know, one of the things that, that you're passionate about is, is, you know, firing the resume. And so I want to understand a little bit more about, you know, how does that mechanism work? And how do you effectively screen and, and recruit without a resume? Oh,

Katherine McCord: 7:48

that's a good question. So I, first of all, it was start with with the I would say very clearly, they understand why we had resumes, right? I know why they were a thing. But the problems with resumes are not even just things like you can tell gender, sometimes you can tell race, things like that. It's not even just that. So. So to your point about the personality assessments and how people look for the same, they do the same kind of thing. With resumes, even down to is this a font that I like, I've seen candidates rejected based on a font. Okay, we're not, we're not like they weren't even using like Wingdings. Okay, it was just, it was Arial. Is that

Kyle Roed: 8:28

a Times New Roman? Roman haters? Oh, is Arial. Okay. It was yeah, it was.

Katherine McCord: 8:34

You're like, Oh, you have a different bias. Alright, that's something we can discuss. But so resumes, resumes just are inherently flawed, and there's no right answer to them, right? There is no, this is how it ought to be done. So there's no, there's no real way to make a good resume, which is the biggest inherent flaw that they have. So when we were building out Titan ATS, and I say that because I can't code for credit. So somebody else had actually code the darn thing. So when we, when we were designing and building it out, one of the main things that we really looked at were, was that needs to align you to the job, right? So you need to get to the heart of what people really need to know. And they don't, let's just be honest, we don't really care what you did in your past, we care what you could do for us when we're hired, right? So you need to help the person tie what they know how to do into the position. So everything in the system is geared towards that. So for instance, instead of just listing out your skills, which is super boring, the, the company says, Okay, these are the main skills that we care about, right yourself, where are you with these skills? And instead of just Oh, tell us what you did at this job. It's what accomplishments did you have, what things did you do that tied you specifically to this position, you know, and things like that. And then there's, you get to have like a creative headline and things like that. So that you see how the person thinks everything is geared towards who this person is how they think, and how they can do the job that you need them to do.

Kyle Roed: 10:09

Fascinating, so it probably takes a little bit longer. If I'm a candidate to apply through this system, do you find that that's a barrier at all for some or is that not

Katherine McCord: 10:21

horribly? So I had a lot of different people dive into it. And I said, Tell me, honestly, I just go in here and apply just I send it to just random people that I knew were out looking for jobs. I said, here apply, just tell me what you think. I think this is really cool. I like it. And the longest anybody told me it took them to fill it out with seven minutes. And that was somebody who typed everything, didn't copy, paste anything. Didn't parse anything out, just typed it out. And, um, and it only took seven minutes. So I was like, okay, that's, I feel like that's still reasonable. The average time was just under five minutes. That's not too bad. Yeah. So I feel like that's an okay amount of time to dedicate to something like it's not just clicking Apply. I realize clicking Apply has its appeals trust me, but, but when you get if it gives you a better chance to align yourself to the job, it's like the extra time is actually going to be more productive for the candidates.

Kyle Roed: 11:12

Now, yeah, it's really interesting, you know, and I almost think about it like it's almost another screening mechanism where you know, you you're kind of screening how interested in the job the individual is, if they're willing to invest,

Katherine McCord: 11:23

right without going overboard, not giving them an hour a lot. We're making them be redundant, like here, give me your resume, and then tell me everything that was already in the resume, which is completely stupid. Yeah. You're getting a resume, please don't ask for anything else. Just stop. But so there's that aspect. Also, the system gives more power back to the candidate. So before the company can see their email and their phone number and actually call them, the company can message them and the basket system without seeing their name or anything like that. But then the candidate decides, Yes, I'm ready to move forward. And we got a lot of very positive feedback from that, because the candidates felt like they mattered again, like, oh, yeah, I really do have a say, I really, you know, this is something that yes, I actually do want to pursue. Thank you for, for checking.

Kyle Roed: 12:09

Me. That's awesome. You know, what's so interesting about that approach? And I'm sure this is part of the the reason that you do it this way is that, then you're actually measuring people equally, and giving the similar weight to different aspects of somebody's experience, versus what somebody thinks you want to see on their resume. Yes, it's the right track.

Katherine McCord: 12:33

Absolutely. So it's absolutely I knew you would hit on that. So it's, it's absolutely designed to help you look at the same markers for every candidate, because you can't do that with a resume, you can't, you absolutely cannot. So with this, it gives you a lot more level playing field, and it makes it a lot more even. So it removes the bias, it properly highlights everybody, and it just keeps everything on a much more even keel, which I think is really important in your hiring. I always tell people don't be scripted in interviews, or in your, you know, in your approach to candidates, but also collect the same information. Keep it keep it on the same level playing field for everybody.

Kyle Roed: 13:13

Absolutely. And there's also, you know, not to put on my HR compliance out, but there's also an aspect of equity there. So, you know, if somebody were to come back and say, hey, you know, that they didn't hire me because of X. Reason, you've got a really clear, you know, rationale that no, you know, we look at everybody the same,

Katherine McCord: 13:32

yes. And here it is, and also to that point. So another thing that's very big to me personally, and this was a little bit controversial, as I I don't believe in collecting Ada and EEOC information. And for anybody that doesn't know that's listening. So that's things like your gender, your, your racial identity, whether or not you have a disability, in association with an applicant. So I believe in collecting the data for your own purposes, but I believe in doing it anonymously, and also in doing it a little bit more accurately. So I don't know if you've ever looked at those questions, but they're extremely discriminatory. Our government is giving instructions on how to discriminate basically. So even with the ethnicity, there's whole of the cities left off, just not even there. They're automatically assuming that someone that has ADHD or dyslexia or whatever other diagnosis feels like they're disabled, which is super weird. So I've had candidates tell me they're like, I don't know which answer is lying in which answer is honest, because yes, I have this condition, but no, I'm not disabled. So I don't I don't know how to answer this. And it's very stressful. And then there's always the perception from candidates that they're being discriminated against. With those questions. Now, most audit, you and I both know that most of the time they're not even looked at, but it's still the perception. And now people have got weird Have you seen some of these new applications? What you're doing, you're gonna love this. Oh, this is this. You're gonna love that. You're gonna love this thing. new fad is to ask someone sexuality, their their age range there, oh, no, it gets better hold on what their disability is very specifically. And then to ask some of these questions more than once in more than one different way no one has. Please stop. It is not inclusive. It is not helpful, please.

Kyle Roed: 15:29

Yeah. What's your? What's your birthday and political affiliation? Where do we stop? Yeah, like?

Katherine McCord: 15:38

Oh god, I saw one that asked about your religion, all of this? Oh, no, please stop. So first of all, you're gonna get sued doing that. So please don't do that. For two HR folks, you're excused to the rest of you out there. Please don't do it. Second of all, because you're gonna give all of your HR people heart attacks. Second of all, if you want to be inclusive, the better way to do that is a to do it anonymously, anonymously and be to do it a lot more generically. So the way that you ask those questions is Is do you identify as neurodiverse? Do you identify as physically diverse? Do you identify as religiously diverse period? You Do? Not? If somebody can look at you and say, That's none of your business. Don't ask the question. Especially not in your application for for the love of God. Stop. Just don't

Kyle Roed: 16:27

do it. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I missed that trend. But I'm glad I missed it. Then still. Worse, I don't understand. Like, I'm just sitting here thinking I'm like, Okay, what would the rationale be like? Maybe somebody's trying to be inclusive by gathering this information to like it? Like the, the intent is there like it's a positive intent, but like, I see nothing but bad happened,

Katherine McCord: 16:51

all that nobody likes. Literally, no one appreciates that. Awful. I've spoken to everybody I could find to have suit seen this. And they're going, Oh, my God, no, this is awful. And I can't I can't cope with this, like, this has got to stop. And every employment law person I know is just like in panic about it. They're like, Oh, no, please stop.

Kyle Roed: 17:14

The lawsuits are gonna be pretty, pretty fascinating. When they all come out.

Katherine McCord: 17:18

I'm waiting for them. Because it's gonna be glorious. Because it's just like, what were you thinking? So I knew that. So my point and go into that is that sometimes people do things with the attempt to be inclusive without understanding inclusivity. And inclusivity is not somebody happy to tell you their life story, just to get a job. Okay. And inclusivity is not you being nosy and to other people's lives. It's just simply saying, it's cool that you're different than us. In fact, we like that. We're going to embrace you the way that you are. Period.

Kyle Roed: 17:58

That's right. And, like hard, hard, stop,

Katherine McCord: 18:01

leave it hard. Stop. Yes, hard stop. This is the line just like a brick wall that you just hit right at the end of that sentence? And that's where it stops. And I've had people who will What about, like asking pronouns and all this, I said, and I always tell people, it's very simple. You just say, you know, you when you're invited somebody to an interview, or what have you, hey, you know, what would you like us to know? Or something along those lines, you keep it very, very vague. You don't? Or you know, we're here, you know, we love to, to accommodate, you know, here's some accommodations that we offer, please let us know if there's anything else we can do for you. That type of thing. Just very, I always say, you know, I think of accommodations because, because I'm a Southerner, and I think, oh, yeah, I get to accommodate my guests and have the tea that they like and have the, you know, the water muffins or whatever else we serve in southern parties and crumpets, but that's a British trumpets.

Kyle Roed: 18:55

Yeah, I think like cornbread. I don't know. What is it? I don't know. I'm a Northerner. I'm above the Mason Dixon. I

Katherine McCord: 19:01

don't know what credit a tea party there you go. But no, like, like half pie, that kind of thing. Like that's, that's how I think of it. And so it's a very positive affiliation. But I've seen other people say that it's performance enhancer, they don't even call it accommodations anymore. It's performance enhancers, because it helps that I'm like, see, you made that. That was when I think something else. Yeah. But then I'm like, huh. Are we not hearing the other problem? Name.

Kyle Roed: 19:34

It's so funny. You bring that up? Because so my my organization, we're International, we're all over the world, live in different countries. And so we we wanted to do this. We wanted to get some demographic data because we want to have diversity goals. We want to have KPIs. We want to we want to truly measure ourselves against ourselves year over year. How are we doing right so so we put out this survey and And, you know, Stupid me, I thought, well, we'll just use the, you know, the standard EEOC classifications, and that's, that's the type of, you know, data that we'll use? Well, I can't tell you how many people reached out and they're like, I don't fit into one of these boxes. Like, this isn't right. Like, like, I don't even have there's not even a box for me, you know, and it was, it was a great eye opening experience, you know, and we, we kind of abandoned that plan pretty quickly. And I'm confident enough to say, well, we kind of screwed up with how we did that. But but, you know, it was pretty eye opening. It's like, people are like, I don't identify this, like, what is this? This is weird, you know, and in the back of my head, I was like, Well, that's what I get for relying on a US government. Yeah, don't approach the government. We're going a whole different direction. Dan HR, if we want to, you know,

Katherine McCord: 20:52

but you know, but you know what, it's what? You know what, though, it's so funny, because I have a lot of people that are that are so afraid to make those mistakes I talked to all the time, they're like, No, you're gonna botch it. And it's okay. Like, don't, don't worry about what it goes wrong, worry about then fixing it to make it right. And maybe let people know, hey, this is our first attempt. So if you have feedback, please tell us. It's like your people that they obviously weren't comfortable about, which by the way means that you're building a strong culture. So kudos to you. They felt comfortable to come to you and talk about hey, no, this is it. This isn't really the thing. So go at it. As generally as you can be as inclusive as you can research, ask as three people do make the efforts, but even then it's still not going to be right, trust me two years into building this gostar technology. And I still have people come to me sometimes and go, Hey, you should really do this. Because of this. And every step of the way, we've had people from every group I could possibly find, looking at it, giving ideas giving feedback, but you still have to go back and circle back. So I think it's a lot of like, so get bummed out.

Kyle Roed: 22:07

There gonna screw up? Isn't that what inclusion is all about? Yes. Right

Katherine McCord: 22:13

is actually yes. You're you're going to say the wrong thing. You're gonna do the wrong thing. It's what you do when somebody comes to you and says, No, that wasn't it. That's That's what matters. You know, I've, I've said Dobby things I've done dopey things, I still do God, I still do. And, and it's just what you do in to fix it. And to make it right, because inclusion is about your mindset, and about your mentality and about your mission. It's not about every little tiny action that you do.

Kyle Roed: 22:42

Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, we're all imperfect, right? And we're all different from each other. Right? You know, even if it's what we would call a, quote, invisible, you know, different, right, like, like, it's, we've just got to figure out a way to work together and to, to build those types of resilient organizations that can operate in the world that we operate in, right? Absolutely. That's just that's what

Katherine McCord: 23:08

works better I have people ask me to like, why, why does inclusion actually matter? And from everything to understanding your customer base better, because your customer base is going to be diverse, to the fact that when people are allowed to work in a way that's natural to their brain, they're more productive. So if you let that person who has auditory sensitivity issues, have on noise cancelling headphones, or play that ADHD person play with a fidget spinner, or have somebody who has migraines, or whatever else have one of those things that darkens the screen for you have a dyslexic person or a person with dyslexia, whatever the terminology is, have an app that helps them to better read, great, the works gonna get done better, faster, right, you're gonna have more options, you know, a lot more productivity. So being inclusive is just also good business. It's good ethics. And it's good business simultaneously.

Kyle Roed: 24:04

Absolutely, yeah. And, you know, I've seen that firsthand, where, you know, that there have been some wonderful employees that just need a little bit of an accommodation. And that, you know, it's funny, it's funny, the context of accommodation, you know, down south, like, in the HR circles, at least, that I run around, and accommodation is almost like, it's like a scary word, right? It's like, oh, no, they dropped the ADA thing now, you know, drop everything for forget how to be a human and panic and follow this, like, rigid, archaic, you know, interactive process chart, and, you know, but but whatever you do, document everything and act like a like a lawyer with no heart, right? Like, yeah, it's like, it shouldn't be that hard. Right?

Katherine McCord: 24:48

Right. From a standard make them standard options just here. What do you need to function? Voila, there you go.

Kyle Roed: 24:55

I think it's, it's as complicated as this. How can I help? Right I mean, just, you know, in open the door and, you know, I've done that so many times. And I mean, I'm sure you've seen this, when you do that, what what you find out is that typically that accommodation for that individual is really beneficial for others. Yeah. You know, yeah, it's, it's like, you know, handicap ramps, to walk into the, into the

Katherine McCord: 25:20

pool. And by the way, oh, God, you're about to get me off on a whole other tangent. So, please, folks, if you're building a building, if you are, you know, planning interviews, and all this, be mindful of physical accessibility. So, here's what I mean, don't have somebody walk, like a mile after they enter the building for their interview, if it could possibly be avoided. And you may not know what somebody's physical ability is, so just don't have the interviews in the back corner of the building, if you can help it. Also, you know, when you're designing a building, and all that, put the ramps next to the door, and have the handicap spaces next to the ramps, da, but somehow, this is not a common thing. So be and when you're listening to begin, you're sending out interview invitations, sent out your accessibility information. That's something a lot of people don't think of, that's actually very, very helpful. So just go ahead and tell people hey, this is where the elevators are, this is where the ramps are, this is you know, and just have it be a link where they can just click and see it if they need to see it. And also have a list of other accommodations that you can offer, you know, maybe no contact interviews, that's a really big one, a lot of people don't want to be touched, especially now that we've had COVID. That's even a bigger thing now than it was before. That also means no eye contact, that some people they actually focus better. If they're not looking at you confess that they will actually answer you better questions, it doesn't mean that they make eye contact, it just means that when they're really thinking that they want to say something really smart, they might kind of look off to the side or look down. And that's something that is not a big deal. So why not just offer that say, Hey, we offer no contact interviews,

Kyle Roed: 27:07

as well. Absolutely. And I've got to two points on that, that don't share so so to your point, I think on the physical, you know, the physical accommodations, like the actual like, you know, facility. I have a coin to just just a great human being worked in a law firm. For years. She had to leave the law firm, just to use the restroom because the restroom was not handicap accessible. And she was wheelchair bound. Right for years. And it was because it was built before some period of time. So it's grandfathered. And so they didn't have to do it. But you know, at the end of the day, like, just just do it. Like, like, spend, you know, spend a couple $1,000 To make that bathroom accessible for everybody. And you know, that's just the right thing to do. So yeah, that's absolutely, that's my PSA. The other one I would say is like, here's another dirty secret of HR. Interviews are terrible at predicting how good somebody's going to be in their job. Yes, thank you. So if somebody stares you in the eye or not, during an interview, which I actually don't like somebody who's like, keeping a bunch of eye contact all the time, like what he

Katherine McCord: 28:18

kind of Arab like somebody that wouldn't quit, right?

Kyle Roed: 28:22

That's, that's worse. I'd much rather have the person looking at their paper the whole time. Yeah. But I mean, I can't tell you how many times you know, I thought someone's going to be great because they had a great interview. And it turns out, they were just a really good communicator in an interview. But just a terrible team player and not great at the job we put them in. And then I've had people who have been absolutely atrocious at interview communication and come in and just knock our socks off. And their job. You know, and, but we've got to, we've got to be honest, like we're not as good as we think we are at it.

Katherine McCord: 28:53

And I will tell you too late, my husband's a perfect example of that. I've never seen someone who's a better worker than ever been in any field at anything. He's incredible. And he's been incredible in every job he's ever had. And he's a horrible interview. Horrible. It's gotten better since he's done some recruiting but he's just not a good interviewer. But he is a remarkable worker. And I will tell you to sit this is another one that I tell all of my clients is it's not the candidates job to be good at good at interviewing, it's yours. You're a professional interviewer. It's you will be good at it. It doesn't matter if they suck at it, you make it That's your job. And to help them showcase themselves and to help them at best align with the position that is your job. So do it. Get out there and help them out. Don't sit there go well, they weren't a good interview. Well, they're not supposed to be are you hiring unless you're hiring them to be a recruiter then maybe but unless that's the case of what possible differences

Kyle Roed: 29:53

I love that I love that and that leads us to what I'm going to name this this podcast episode which is just simply don't suck. Don't suck.

Katherine McCord: 30:02

Don't do it. Same thing with inclusion people who are here, well, what's your number one tip? Don't be shitty. It's really easy. Don't look at somebody and say, No, I'm not going to do that. I'm going to make you be uncomfortable. Because this is just how I like things cold. That's pretty shitty. Yeah, just be a human freaking beam. And if somebody wants an accommodation, don't make them jump through hoops and go to Mars for it. Just go. How can I help? To your point? How can I help?

Kyle Roed: 30:32

Yeah, absolutely.

Katherine McCord: 30:33

Don't be shitty.

Kyle Roed: 30:34

I'm with you. I'm gonna put that so my next leadership training when I you know, for like, people who are interviewing, not that I'm gonna put that's gonna be the name of it. And I'm probably gonna get the most attendance at any training event that I've ever had. If I if I name it that

Katherine McCord: 30:49

I did a training called fire the castle and it worked and people

Kyle Roed: 30:53

that could do it that could do Yeah, be a little irreverence. Alright, took it. Within reason, I don't want anybody to get fired, because they said, Hey, on this podcast, I heard that I should do this. And so I'm calling it don't be shitty. And then and now they got into general counsel comes into your office, the next you know,

Katherine McCord: 31:09

do consult legal let's, let's put that caveat. Consult legal. First. Do that before you create your job application process. So that way you don't put some theory or go hide your job.

Kyle Roed: 31:20

Even better, you know, don't Yeah, yeah, again, that don't be shitty. Okay, very simple. With that in mind, I think we're gonna we're gonna put a punctuation mark, we're gonna shift gears into the rebel HR flash round. And we've already been talking about this, this is just gonna be a natural lead in so first question, Where does HR need to rebel?

Katherine McCord: 31:41

HR needs to rebel and that we need to go back to being the voice that talks back to the company on behalf of the humans, not the other way around. Like, yes, we do need to look out for and protect the company. But also we need to be the ones going back to management saying no, it No, this sucks. We're going to fix it. We're going to fix it now.

Kyle Roed: 32:00

I love that. And that I actually think that's, that's a lot harder to do than those people I was born and it's not me to I, I never struggled. But But for many of us, you know, you're you're always trying to kind of walk the line, right, like, well, do I you know, am I representing the company? am I representing the employee and you know, that comes back to

Katherine McCord: 32:19

integrity? Yeah. Yeah.

Kyle Roed: 32:23

100% Don't be shitty. All right, you shouldn't question number two, who should we be listening to?

Katherine McCord: 32:29

Oh, God, you know what, I'm gonna give some shout out some amazing human beings that I know which are we talked about tariff biryani before the show everybody should listen to not the HR lady, Alan, Ivan said with wisdom you didn't ask for but now you can't live without, definitely check out Allen Iverson. He is absolutely extraordinary. He's one of my guiding lights. So I'm gonna give a shout out to those two incredible Cubans.

Kyle Roed: 32:52

Awesome. And then and you have a couple of publications. You want to get your shows that

Katherine McCord: 32:58

yeah, I have I have career launch Live, which is all things people. We do a lot of a lot of top row leadership and inclusion. It's on its Fridays at 10am. And then I also have my my kind of new favorite baby. It's super badius show. We talk everything neurodiversity at mental health,

that is Tuesdays at 9: 33:15

30am. And so join us and find your tribe of fellow neurodiverse weirdos.

Kyle Roed: 33:23

Absolutely love that. I love it. Last question, how can our listeners connect with you?

Katherine McCord: 33:29

Well, LinkedIn, I am all over LinkedIn. Please, please connect with me on LinkedIn. Come talk to me ask questions, whatever it is, if you want an introduction, I swear I know everybody. Go ahead and reach out I'm always here to connect in that's a help the Catherine McCord I think I'm like the only one with my spelling. Oh, they did?

Kyle Roed: 33:47

Absolutely. We'll have that link in the in the show notes open up your podcast player. And then the website if you want to learn more about tighten management is tighten management usa.com We'll also have that link so definitely going to check it out. If you're in the market for an applicant tracking system. I would encourage you to take a look think about tighten ATS There you go. Love it. Katherine, this has been an absolute joy just really appreciate you spending some time with us and and rebel on. All right, that does it for the rebel HR podcast. Big thank you to our guests. Follow us on Facebook at rebel HR podcast, Twitter at rebel HR guy or see our website at rebel human resources.com. The views and opinions expressed by rebel HR podcast are those the authors and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position. Any of the organizations that we represent No animals were harmed during the filming of this podcast. Maybe