Rebel Human Resources Podcast

RHR 134: Show the Value of What you Do with Patti Phillips, Ph.D. and Jack Phillips, Ph.D.

January 10, 2023 Kyle Roed, The HR Guy Season 3 Episode 134
Rebel Human Resources Podcast
RHR 134: Show the Value of What you Do with Patti Phillips, Ph.D. and Jack Phillips, Ph.D.
Show Notes Transcript Chapter Markers

Join Kyle Roed and Molly Burdess as they dig into the book, "Show the Value of What You Do"!  

Sometimes the value of the work you do, the projects you undertake, or the initiatives you tackle are not clear. How do you know if your new venture has the potential to be a success? 

Show the Value of What You Do describes six steps to measure and improve the success of any project, program, initiative, or work effort. The Show the Value process involves connecting projects with a business measure, collecting and analyzing data to track progress, and presenting the results to the right audiences. The process is logical, credible, and easy to use. It offers a way for you to design work and deliver success so that others appreciate the value you contribute. 

Designed for specialists, consultants, project managers, team leaders, and career development professionals, this invaluable guide will help to ensure readers keep their work relevant, their careers on track and their organizations healthy.

Patti P. Phillips, Ph.D., is co-founder and CEO of ROI Institute. She is a driving force in the global adoption of the ROI Methodology and measurement and evaluation to influence organizational change. Her work as an educator, researcher, consultant, and coach supports leaders as they build the capacity to create and deliver value from investments in all types of endeavors. Her work spans private, public, nonprofit, and nongovernmental organizations.

Jack J. Phillips, Ph.D., chairman of ROI Institute, is a world-renowned expert on accountability, measurement, and evaluation. Jack provides consulting services for Fortune 500 companies and major global organizations, and regularly consults with clients in manufacturing, service, and government organizations in 70 countries. The author or editor of more than 100 books, he conducts workshops and presents at conferences throughout the world and has received several awards and honors for his work.


Jack has undergraduate degrees in electrical engineering, physics, and mathematics; a master’s degree in Decision Sciences from Georgia State University; and a Ph.D. in Human Resource Management from the University of Alabama. He has served on the boards of several private businesses, nonprofits, and associations, including the American Society for Training and Development, the National Management Association, and the International Society for Performance Improvement, where he served as president (2012-2013).

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Patti Phillips:

And then what exactly do you want them to do? They're not doing now that they could do if they knew how to have a crucial conversation. And if they do those things, how's it going to help us improve output quality, cost and time? So by asking different set of questions, at least you can get some clarity on what the thinking is about that solution. But all too often in HR is either tell them what to do, or just take the order and you don't want to do either one of them. Right. It's partnership and collaboration.

Kyle Roed:

This is the rebel HR Podcast, the podcast where we talk to HR innovators about all things people leadership. If you're looking for places to find about new ways to think about the world of work, this is the podcast for you. Please subscribe for your favorite podcast listening platform today. And leave us a review revelon HR rebels Welcome back rebel HR listeners extremely excited for the conversation today. I was saying before I hit record that every once in a while I get a pitch for a couple of guests that I just have to talk to. And I am pleased to introduce you today to Patti Phillips and Jack Phillips. They are co founders and chairman of ROI Institute respectively. They are also the co authors of the new book show the value of what you do. Welcome to the rebel HR podcast. Thanks, Kyle. Really excited for the conversation today. And I'm also excited that Molly Bradesco is joining us, Molly, welcome. Thank you. Alright, so I want to start off with the question that I asked every author because undertaking a book is a big endeavor and takes a lot of time, energy, and blood, sweat and tears. So what prompted the two of you to write the book show the value of what you do?

Patti Phillips:

Well, it's certainly a great question. It's not the first book. But by any means we've been fortunate in that we've worked together in this space to help individuals show the value of what they do in organizations or in their communities or just value to themselves for a very long time. But the reason we wrote this book is there was a need to tell that story. In such a way that it resonates with a larger population, we tend to focus on corporate executives, we focus in HR, which perfect audience here we focus in other areas as well. So there was a need to really expand the reach. Because Never before have we seen such demand for and such need for people to demonstrate the value. And it's not just demonstrating the value, it's creating and demonstrating the value of what they do. And so that book was written for that larger audience. And it's also written in a less technical way, many of our books are very technical. And so we wanted a book that was more reader friendly, not so much math, and a lot of great stories, stories where people from across the board disciplines, organizations, within the US outside the US are doing just that they're creating and demonstrating the value that they bring to their organizations in their communities. So Jack, you may want to add to that,

Jack Phillips:

with just that coin, the fact that some of our books probably have frightened people, because we have a title like show me the money, more right titles. And then some of our books were 500 pages, can you imagine that and it's got ROI in the cover. And so some poor soul trying to show the value of their project might get frightened with that. And so we wanted a more approachable book, because so many people need to know how to show the value of which of just a project you're working on, and understand success, and not confusing activity, with results, for example, and so we said, we got to write this book. And so that's motivated us to do it. And to do it now.

Molly Burdess:

You mentioned you have an immediate need for people to be able to show the value of what they do. Where does that need come from?

Patti Phillips:

Well, for I mean, that's been a need for a very long time, we just see even greater need today. And much of it is coming from those people who are investing in the programs, projects and initiatives that people are engaging in. So you have so many resources to spend are so much whether it's resources, people resources, or money resources, but when you're making the purchase is that financial resource, you have only so much of it. So the question is, where do we spend it to get the most value for the money and we just see the need to demonstrate that value even greater today. The other thing that is really important. And another reason why we wrote this book is that in today's environment, you know, it's not so easy managing proof. formance of people who are working at home and with this new way of work for many organizations that remote work, that hybrid work, you may see someone come in once a week or twice a week, the question becomes, how are they performing? And how can we measure their performance because we don't see them. And it's tough for a lot of people. So what we're trying to do with the book is give people who do want to demonstrate the value and the impact they're having in such a way that it's an indisputable, we're removing some of that subjectivity that exists in performance management anyway. So it's a way to say, you know, you don't have to manage me day to day, you don't have to see me coming in and out of work. I'm going to deliver value, I'm going to deliver what up promise I'm going to deliver. And here's a way we can measure that. That delivery of that promise. Does that? Does that answer it, Molly? Does that help?

Molly Burdess:

Yeah. And I can absolutely relate to the challenge of trying to measure performance when you can't see them. And I think there's a lot of people out there and senior level executives, but that's their fear, right? How do I know what they're doing? How do I know that I'm getting what I'm paying for?

Patti Phillips:

Yeah, yeah, it's hard to manage and trust that which we cannot see. Right? It's hard for a lot of people. Jack,

Jack Phillips:

do that. Yes. Sometimes you do it, so that people notice what you do. If you gotta block career, you seem to be stale, stagnant and where you are. But yet you take on a project. And this might be a way to show the value of this project, and let people see what you can do. We feature a lot of stories in our book, about 20 Plus stories of individuals and what this has done for them. One of those is Jessica Kriegel. She was a consultant at Oracle. And her her pet peeve was, you know, I'm a millennial, and millennials are just so misunderstood. And she had a project there at Oracle, where she was asked to show up to actually train some millennials, because the manager says, They don't think like us, they don't act like us. And so train them. And she saw that the problem, there wasn't so much the millennials, it's the managers as well. So she she evaluated this program and studied it and analyze it using our process and found that there's really two solutions here. One is to train the managers and the other was trained millennials. And she did and it worked. It paid off because they were losing those millennials, she showed the financial ROI. It got a lot of attention there within Oracle. In fact, she published it in a book that she wrote called unfairly labeled, it became a best seller book, Jessica has now moved from Oracle to she was a chief people officer for a company. She's now the Chief Scientist for another company. So it got her out of a block career. So I'd like to get noticed to get support, as well, as Penny says getting funding. There's a lot of reasons to get this done.

Patti Phillips:

So there are a lot there a lot of people who are in roles that, you know, some people would perceive those roles as a nice to have role, for example. So in the book tells the story of one of our great colleagues, Doug Stewart, he's a chaplain for a major health care organization. He has a big job in this healthcare organization, but pre pandemic, they were questioning the value of chaplaincy within the health care organization. You know, can't we get this job done some other way. And so Doug set out to show that it is important, chaplaincy is important to this particular organization, it's important to the organization is important to the patients. Now, we know since pandemic, you know, there's been greater value placed on chaplaincy, we've needed that. I mean, we're at a state now that mental health is so important. But pre pandemic, there was a question mark about it. And so Doug tells that story in this book. So whatever role a person is in this is a process or a tool that they can use to you know, align their activities, the work that they do, align it with the needs of the organization, and then demonstrate through a process that they are delivering upon their needs. They're delivering that value and what it does for the organization. First, again, as we're talking Molly, it changes the way in which we manage performance, especially for those hybrid workers. It's just it's just hard as a challenge changes the way we manage performance changes the way we look at performance. But what it's also helping the employee do is build a portfolio of success. And that is not what we've historically been good at within organizations because we don't want our good people to leave. Well, you know, let's encourage people to build that portfolio of success. Because when new technology we can move them around within the organization we have these these internal processes the technology that allows people to look within the organization to say, who has the skill, the talent that can serve this particular project, it may not be an HR, it may not be a marketing, it could be all the way over in some other department. But we're leveraging the resources and the skills we have. So we sometimes lose that when we think about demonstrating the impact and the value of our work. You know, we want to do that it's not about what you do every day activity wise, it's about the outcome, the so what of it all? So what you do it every day, what are you actually accomplishing? And that's what we're trying to get to?

Kyle Roed:

Absolutely. And, you know, I think it's really, it's a really powerful concept that I think it's easy to overlook, especially if you're a human resources professional, where, you know, you're coming in typically, or coming into an organization where you've got best practices, maybe compliance is a big part of your role. And so often, we lose sight that, you know, the reason that we exist, is to provide value. Right. And that's, you know, that's why we have a job. And, in some way, shape, or form, we do add value, or we wouldn't have a job. But I think so often, and the focus of our podcast so often is about how do we elevate the work that we do? How do we improve? How do we innovate? And how do we? How do we think a little bit differently about the role that we play within our organizations? So in the context of showing value on an individual level, that will that naturally kind of reverberate through the entire, you know, function, the functional pyramid as well?

Patti Phillips:

Absolutely. That's where it starts, right? The individual adds value creates value adds value, and then it just rolls out. So absolutely, we can start there, and change that perception. And then to just note, Kyle, when we talk about adding value, and you touched on a little bit, you know, we're here We exist to add value. That's what we exist to do. How are you defining it? So one thing we do look at is there a different measures of value, ultimately, it's that impact is that return on investment to say we get more benefit than then the spin. But there are other ways to look at value at too. So maybe you change someone's perception. Maybe you give someone some insight or share insight knowledge that they didn't have you help someone develop a case, a skill that they didn't have, maybe you change your behavior or help someone else change their behavior. And as a consequence, we see improvement in output quality, cost and time. Okay, now you're starting to talk about what measures mattered, operational excellence in the business at large. And if we can improve those measures, given this very small investment of the here, that is a huge ROI to the business. So there's different ways we look at value, Jack, look at you want to say something? So go ahead.

Jack Phillips:

Oh, yes, you see, there's, there's so many things we need to be doing in HR, to make sure we connect to the business. And I'm reminded of a person who went through our training, and understood this process quite well. He told us a story about a job interview he had he applied for HR manager for company, and the top executive was interviewing him. And he says that the executive says, So what are you going to do for us as a head of HR? He says, I'm going to make you more profitable. He said you are how are you going to do that? He says, Well, I know you have a turnover issue. And so that we can we can correct that easily and save a lot of money, you got a safety issue, hey, we can correct that. I mean, we can we can make a big difference here and add more value than it's costing. And you've got a productivity issue when you look at gross revenue per employee. And so what we can work on that we can get employees more motivated with their pay system reward systems and good supervision. So so he was going down that checklist year and that executive was so impressed and gave him the job he says no one has ever responded that way. So it's it's turning around and showing how you can add value to the organization instead of saying I'm going to make sure we don't go to jail

Kyle Roed:

That's it man i I'm so with you. The anybody listening to the podcast knows like, if you think about things from how do I prevent you know people from going to jail or how do I not get sued like that's that's the absolute wrong context to be thinking about your job and like who really wants to work that job? I don't

Jack Phillips:

find that too much pressure. Yeah,

Patti Phillips:

seriously company HR cops then.

Molly Burdess:

Yeah, hey, some of us are known as HR cop. Yeah, for trying to change that. I mean, Jackie just summed up like, exactly what we're trying to do with our profession and about 30 back end.

Jack Phillips:

It's, it's, it's amazing what needs to be done. I appreciate what you guys are doing here because it, it, the HR function in my mind, if you look at all of the executives, there's no executive below the CEO, that can have as much influence on the outcome, the success of that organization, and head of HR, but they don't see it. We got to help them with that. That's what we need to do.

Patti Phillips:

But I think part of that, so coming from some very short stay about 13 years in corporate, not an HR, the perception is HR is dictating, right, not helping, not enabling, they're coming in, this is how it needs to be done. You're telling. And we see that with DNI as well, right? The DNI officer comes in, and they're telling us this is the way it ought to be not helping solve the problem. Now, there are some things that ought to be that way, right. And there's some things but the reason HR is looked at, as the HR cop is because they don't come in wanting to solve the problem or leveraging opportunity. They're not partnering with the business, they're coming in as the cops. And it's unfortunate because then they don't get the respect that they need people avoid them, when in fact, HR is just sick and have the greatest value can contribute the greatest value and organization than any other function. But they're so caught up in this. Here's the policy here, the procedures has got to be done this way. Rather than asking a different set of questions and being an Uber, Uber curious about the business. And that's that's an issue, you know, the curiosity is lacking.

Molly Burdess:

So for me, I feel like I'm definitely curious about the business. I'm very good at like coming up with a Bastyr. I know the problem, but I'm an idea creator, where I've struggled personally, when I'm talking about showing, you know, the value of what I do. How do I explain this to my executive team to get them bought in? How do I connect that to the result? How do I communicate it in a way that add value? Do you see a lot of people running into those same challenges? What advice do you have for me?

Patti Phillips:

And it's, it's getting bought into getting bought into what?

Molly Burdess:

The let's say I have a program. Okay, turnover, for example? Yep, I'm gonna create this program to eliminate some of this turnover. Okay, what do I do with that? Yeah, how do I get my team bought in?

Patti Phillips:

Right? First thing is recognizing that the program is the right solution for the turnover. Because a lot of times, we'll just jump on a program and say, you know, someone's done it that way. So we're gonna do it this way. And it's not even the right solution. So step one

Molly Burdess:

is hey, everybody more? That's right. Yeah, just put it in there. And it's gonna fix it.

Patti Phillips:

So step one is looking at the turnover. And what turnover, is it? Is it all turnover? Is it? Is it your your high performing turnover? So what turnover? Is it? And then what is it really costing the organization, if it's not a high value cost a high value problem, then you really have to think through, okay, it may need to be solved, but just how, what's the magnitude of the problem, and that's what putting money on things does for us, right money shows us the magnitude of problem or opportunity, and then sorting out what needs to change and ensuring you've got the right solution and then positioning it so that people do get it. And it starts by positioning so that people are really compelled to address whatever the issue is. So they need to see what that problem is and the magnitude of the problem and what it's going to take to implement the solution. So is really just asking questions and telling, sharing with people. Here's what it is this program, and here's what you are going to learn through the program and your people are going to learn and here's what's going to change as a result of this. And here's why it's important. Because we need to reduce the turnover because the turnover cost this is hurting our customers. So it's really making it relevant to whoever that audience is and explaining clearly to them, you know what you're going to learn what's going to change what's important to the organization. So again, Jack, you might want to

Jack Phillips:

say you're reminding them that any project you have is five levels of success. So if you've got a retention solution, its first one is how people react to it. If you don't get the buy in, you lose them. So they need to have a positive reaction. They need to see it as something that's needed necessary. It's important, something they will implement. Then there's learning what is it what is it I need to know to make this work, make the solution work? What am I should be doing differently to make this work? So that's learning you've got to learn some things. And then there's action that's activities. It's we call that level three application. I'm applying what I've know now what I what I know to make this successful, I'm doing something and then there's impact and that's the turnover. Impact is the critical measure here. When you get to impact part of the pie. assesses to sort out the effects of the retention solution from other factors. So that you'd know exactly what we've done. That's proof that we made a difference. Now we look at the monetary value that we've avoided there, compared to the cost, we get the ROI. So you've got these five levels of success, how they react, Oh, what did they learn? Or do they do that's application? And that's impact? Level four, and Level Five is ROI. You get people to think that way, in any new project, they have, Hey, I gotta see how they're gonna react. What do they need to learn? What do they need to do? What's the impact? What's the ROI, and we get it we often before we gotta go is impact and ROI. That's what executives want to want to see. They're giving us money, they want to see what they're getting for that. So it all works together as a system is explained in this new book.

Kyle Roed:

So I think it's a really, it's a very, very logical construct that what you said, Jack just makes absolute perfect sense. And I think, I don't think anybody listening to this is going to be like, What in the world? Is he talking about? Like, that just makes sense. But it's I think, just because it's logical and straightforward, doesn't mean it's, it's easy. Right? And I think that's, you know, so often we get caught into this trap, where, you know, it seems like your world doesn't really match up with what it logically should. And so I want to start, I want to maybe take a step back. And, you know, I think one of the really powerful takeaways from the book for me, was where you start with this type of process. And it's, you know, so often we start with what do we want to do? As opposed to? What impact do we want to have? So can you walk through the that, that kind of that difference in approach in the in the power of operating in that in that way?

Patti Phillips:

So it all starts with you know why? Right? So like you said, a lot of times things start with this is what we want to do? Well, the question is, why do you want to do those things? So in the ideal world, you begin with what is the problem or opportunity the organization is facing? So what is the problem or opportunity the organization is facing? What is the value of changing it or addressing it? So you know, maybe it's an opportunity to make money, save money, avoid costs, do greater good while making money saving money, avoiding costs. Now, what are the key business measures that need to improve that if we improve them tell us we're moving toward that making money saving money, avoiding cost into a greater good, and then you get to okay, what needs to change? So it all starts with? What is the business measure the impact we're trying to have? And the value of that impact? And then what needs to change? What do people need to start doing? Or stop doing that? If they did that would help us improve those measures? And then what is it they need to learn to do that? And how can we give it to them? So Jack, you want to add to that,

Jack Phillips:

yeah, and then from there we go expect success, we lay out objectives for the for the team, where we want to go with this, or an objective for reaction learning application impact, even ROI for going to ROI. And then we collect data along the way to make sure that we've got all the data to fit those levels. And then we do the analysis to sort out the effects of our project from other influences, and then convert that to money. And then calculate the ROI, if that's what we want to do. So if it's worth it. But then the last step on our model, this is a step six step model, it's in our book, The last step is leverage your results. And we think that's the most under appreciated part of the model. How you got good results, how are we going to use that, maybe to get more funding? Remember, Patti? So that's probably the number one reason we need to do this is to keep our funder happy that people gave us money for this thing. Or it could be that we want to get more support, more commitment. Maybe we want to make things better, because it didn't turn out quite quite as good as we'd like. Maybe it's to leverage my career. So we're leveraging the result to something good for you and the organization that others so that's the life step leveraging results it but it's the starting point is it points out is start with why? Good imagine start with why at the beginning. And you'll ever results at the end.

Kyle Roed:

Absolutely. I can. I'm being completely honest in the statement that about 10 years ago in my career, I was working on a project and I was totally stuck because my accounting team was trying to question why are we why are we doing this? What's the value? And I knew that there was value there it was, you know, it was a retention program. It was working but it was like, you know, we missed that step. And so I was like trying to go back and come up with some, you know, method of calculating it. And I literally said somebody needs to write a book on how to do this. So I appreciate you for for writing that book. But

Molly Burdess:

oh, yeah, I think it's absolutely something that all of us kind of have to learn the hard way and reflect on Okay, where did this go wrong? What could I have done differently? What should I have done? Better? So yeah, Kudo. Thea, that book is invaluable.

Jack Phillips:

It's so part of this is to be proactive. And don't wait for someone to ask, you know, look, you had this been working on this project, gave you this money. Now show me the ROI, show me the impact of that, then it puts you in a bind, because you haven't thought about it. So now you got a short timeline to have something. And you're now defensive, you're defending a challenge, essentially, you want to be on the offense. And you got to ROIs. Now on somebody else's agenda, you want to keep it on your agenda. So one of our big issues here is be proactive with this. Don't wait for someone to make you do it. Do it yourself. And when you do that, you're more in control of it, just as you were pointing out, you get get a chance to experiment a little bit, take a little time to understand and making sure it's working quite well for you. Yeah.

Patti Phillips:

And another thing is be proactive, as Jack said. But the other thing too is, it's tough acquiescing. And I say that loosely, because it's easier said than done, right? I mean, some things, you have to be PC about it. But ask more questions, before we jump on a solution, because we see that happen a lot, whether it's, you know, the boss coming in saying, Hey, I read a good book, or you go to a conference, HR tech, and you're like, oh, my gosh, we've got to get this. And the question is why? Now why do we really need to do that? Right? So ask more questions. And you know, ask when the boss reads that good book, you know, read a great book, Crucial Conversations, I want everybody to go through training. It's like, okay, great idea. What exactly do you want them to learn? And then what exactly do you want them to do? They're not doing now that they could do if they knew how to have a crucial conversation. And if they do those things, how's it going to help us improve output quality, cost and time? So by asking different set of questions, at least you can get some clarity on what the thinking is about that solution. But all too often we are either in HR is either tell them what to do, or just take the order. And you don't want to do either one of them. Right. It's partnership and collaboration.

Kyle Roed:

That's such a powerful point. And I am so it, the listeners can't see the camera right now. But I'm like pointing at myself when you're talking about like, HR tech, you know, it's like, oh, that's cool. You know, let's Yeah, figure this out. Yeah. But, yeah, just asking those right questions up front. I can, I'm sure many of us can think of many different programs where, you know, a senior leader said, we need to do this. And instead of saying, Okay, why should we do this? What do you what do you want the outcome to be? We just go? Okay, I'll get it done.

Patti Phillips:

We're people pleasers, right? It's like,

Kyle Roed:

Well, yeah. From the Midwest. We're like ultra people pleasers, small NIR. So it's definitely something we're trying to overcome. Really powerful point. You know, I think the other thing I want to say and and, and I'm not just saying this, because, you know, I'm trying to be a people pleaser, I really appreciated the the narrative that was used, you know that the context of the learning within this book was it was story based. And through a lot of these almost like case studies, it really helps cement some of the concepts within the book. And so I'm curious, maybe, maybe this step back a little bit as you think about being an author and communicating to a different audience. As you thought about putting this book together, what prompted you to write it in this style versus the more technical style you've written in the past?

Patti Phillips:

Jack, you might want to respond to that first. Well, you know, we

Jack Phillips:

saw how we frightened people. And so, you know, so the notion of ROI you you got to that? I don't, I don't have an financial accounting degree. And I don't like numbers. And, you know, I don't want equations and I don't want models. So just the notion of getting there seemed to frighten so many people, we say, look, we've got it, simplify this. Because it's really this thinking logically, for the most part. And there's some structure around it, that helps us and there's, there's some times we will have to track cost and we can the ROI formula itself that we use comes at fourth grade math, so it's not that difficult. So we just Got it. I don't like to use the word dumbing down, but just bring it down to something that is approachable. So first of all, pick it up and start reading it. And the stories in there, we knew we had to put a lot of stories, we always, in the last 10 years, I'd say, start up books, every chapter with a story. But here we got stories embedded throughout the book. So that keep them that gauge, keep them connected, so they can see how this is coming out. And we don't bring out a lot of numbers, we don't bring in a lot of calculations, because that's there when you when you need it. But there's a lot of logic and process, you can take care of to get most of your things in place.

Patti Phillips:

And stories are compelling. You know, I mean, that's lots of conversation about storytelling these days, but they can be and they are compelling. And people say, God, that sounds just like me, I was writing John Kravitz his shoes. So, you know, it makes it a little more relatable.

Kyle Roed:

I think it's a really, I think it's a really interesting approach. And from my standpoint, I think what's really interesting is it, you know, kind of intertwine throughout the entire book is, it really all comes down to really good communication. Right. And, and, and you can see that in the writing, and I, you know, it's obviously clearly research backed, you know, this isn't flavor of the month, you know, there's legitimate, you know, really legitimate action oriented things that somebody can do, whether they're an individual contributor, or a senior executive, trying to figure out how to get a project approved. Like there's, there's things that you can take in your career, and, and be personally and professionally rewarding, I think for for anybody that takes the time to read through this. So I really appreciate the time that went into the book, it is less I was looking it up, it's like less than 140 pages, I think, if you take the acknowledgments out there. So it's, it's easy. It's easy. And and, and I think really well done. So I really appreciate both of you sharing a little bit about it. I do want to shift gears, I'm fascinated to hear with both of your experience in the realm of HR, your responses to the rebel HR FlashPro. So all right, I'm going to start I'll go, I'll ask each of you. And I'll start with you, Patty. Where does HR need to rebell

Patti Phillips:

they need to be less. They need to acquiesce less, ask more questions and be more curious.

Kyle Roed:

Love it, Jack.

Jack Phillips:

Yes. Stop focusing on administrative legal compliance. Yes, that's important. You'll take care of that, but starting connecting what we do to the business and show that to the business leaders.

Kyle Roed:

Absolutely. Yeah, that's a whole nother that's a whole nother podcast. That's probably another book or two. But I agree wholeheartedly. Alright, question number two. And I'll switch it up Jack, who should we be listening to?

Jack Phillips:

That this is surprise people, I think you should listen to your chief financial officer. What a lot of HR executives don't like to even talk to that person. And unfortunately, a lot of them now report to that person. Gartner tells us about almost 20% of HR executives are now reporting to CFOs. And, and that's happened to them because the executive, the top executives doesn't clearly understand the value of HR. So let's put it under the function that's going to control it and manage it. So they don't while in spending. That's the CFO. So listen to the CFO, what's on their mind, what are their issues, read a magazine called chief financial officer. It's a it's a it's a it's a digital publication. Now it used to be printed publication, but it's amazing when you see what's in their world. We got to get in their world, but

Molly Burdess:

I can attach one of the best things any HR professional can do is get the CFO on their side. Yes, very hurtful.

Kyle Roed:

Ma Malia we've had that conversation.

Jack Phillips:

We've had four and

Kyle Roed:

I couldn't agree more. And I I'll I'll take a tangent here, because we were just talking about storytelling. But when I joined one of my organizations, I reported direct to the CFO for that, for that exact reason where, you know, the HR was kind of a question mark. They didn't really know where it should go, but they knew it did something with compliance. CFO does admin. Okay, that works. Right, you know, and that's, and it took a couple of years before the organization realized the value of human resources and unfortunately, I had a chief executive officer at the time that just completely understood that. That fact and the VA And the importance. But sometimes it does take time. And it really does take learning the organization, and sometimes kind of being, you know, being a little bit of a nerd and learning what is, what is ROI, what's cost benefit analysis, you know, speaking the language of somebody that, that spent their life and finance, I think is important. I think it's, it's actually, one of the more inclusive things you can do as an HR leader is learn the language that others in your organization speak. So

Patti Phillips:

and you know, on that, Kyle, I'm about to jump into whatever your process is here. I think that's the thing people are afraid to ask. Right? They think they should know. And so they want to ask, and that's part of that curiosity. Go ask, Are you kidding? A CFO would love it, if HR come to them say, Hey, can you explain this to me? So? Yeah.

Molly Burdess:

I'm going to interrupt here too. And I know we gotta get going. But I'm curious. If we have a listener who is you know, head of HR and they see a life, they are not reporting to the right person with the right structure? What advice you have for that person?

Patti Phillips:

Yeah, I don't think influence is necessary structural reporting, get you can get to know the people you need to get to know. Right? Did reporting organization structure a structure? That's good, go, no, go get to know them go. If you did not reporting to the CFO, the CFO, you still get to know the CFO. If you're not reporting operations, or it or wherever it is, you still get to know those folks. So I don't think structure isn't a question you just needed. To reach out people are willing to help. So Jack, I think you were about to respond to Molly Yeah,

Jack Phillips:

I think, yes, first, start showing the value of what you do to the CFO. And reminding them that our biggest opportunity for value add is going to be probably with operations, or sales or both. And, and you've got to work closely with them, to make sure that we help them get the productivity and outcomes that they need. So you keep reminding this person that, yes, I'm reporting near, but I'm probably going to have to align myself a lot with some other executives to get to help achieve the objectives that you want us to. So they're beginning to then see, well, maybe you don't need to be reporting in to me. I deal with ever need report to the CEO. And not to any of that, even the operating executives but it's basically show how you add value and where you add value, and who you need to work with to get that value that you need. That might change some thinking there. Absolutely like that elected by?

Kyle Roed:

I know we have hard stops. So I'm gonna jump to the last question, how can our listeners connect with you and get a copy of the book?

Patti Phillips:

Well, all they have to do is just give us a shout, you can email us at Patti ptti at ROI, Institute dotnet, or Jack at ROI, institute.net or go to our website, ROI institute.net. We'd love to hear from your listeners,

Jack Phillips:

if you just want the book is obviously Amazon. It's also our publisher of bad color. It's wherever books are sold, you'll find this book.

Kyle Roed:

Absolutely. We'll have links to that in the show notes. So open up your podcast player, check it out. Patty, Jack, just sincerely appreciate the conversation and all the work that you've done over the years to help advance our profession. So thank you so much for spending a few minutes with us today. Thank you for having us. It's great to meet you guys. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. All right, that does it for the rebel HR podcast. Big thank you to our guests. Follow us on Facebook at rebel HR podcast, Twitter at rebel HR guy, or see our website at rebel human resources.com. The views and opinions expressed by rebel HR podcast are those the authors and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of any of the organizations that we represent. No animals were harmed during the filming of this podcast. Maybe

(Cont.) RHR 134: Show the Value of What you Do with Patti Phillips, Ph.D. and Jack Phillips, Ph.D.