RHR 140: Recognition that Works with Tom Short

Tom Short: 0:00

Sure you want happier employees and you want them to be satisfied with the things that you do and provide for them. But what you truly want them to be is engaged and contributing in positive ways in their role and as a cultural leader. And that all goes back to core values aligned and overlapping with what you want to do as an organization.

Kyle Roed: 0:18

This is the rebel HR Podcast, the podcast where we talk to HR innovators about all things people leadership. If you're looking for places to find about new ways to think about the world of work, this is the podcast for you. Please subscribe on your favorite podcast listening platform today. And leave us a review revelon HR rebels Welcome back rebel HR listeners very excited for the conversation today. With us we have kudos his Chief Commercial Officer, Tom shore, Tom is an employee's first entrepreneur. He in the last 25 years he has founded several successful companies, all of which have employee experience as their cornerstone in his current role. He is invested in advocating for employee recognition over rewards favoring the long term effects of recognition on well being and motivation over the short term object. Perks of rewards. Welcome to the show, Tom.

Tom Short: 1:14

Hey, thank you very much, Kyle, appreciate being here.

Kyle Roed: 1:17

Appreciate having you with us. We also have Molly Bradesco. Molly, thanks for joining us. Hey, guys. She's here to ask all the good questions, Tom, just so

Tom Short: 1:25

you always have to have a smart person in the room?

Kyle Roed: 1:27

That's right. I'm the color commentator. Well, Tom, again, appreciate you joining us in and you've got a really interesting background, I think the first question that I have for you is is what brought you to kudos?

Tom Short: 1:42

Well, it's a long and sad story, I don't think we have enough time to go through it all. But it all kind of harkens back to a variety of companies. I've started here in Calgary, a bit of a serial entrepreneur. And one of the last incarnations was an advertising and marketing firm here in Calgary where we had, you know, a couple 100 employees spread out through Canada and the US. And it was pretty difficult getting everybody on the same page, and to let them know that we actually valued them. And then of course, through the various cycles of work, you have, you know, scenarios that come up that challenge businesses. And when that happens, it puts extra stress on the organization. And through the 2008 financial meltdown, we were having to face the same challenges as everyone else's right sizing your business and keeping your team engaged and trying to drive back up to the successes that you had before. And we found that, you know, the secret weapon turned out to be, you know, employee recognition and figuring out how we could demonstrate to the team that they were valued, that they were their contributions made a difference and and that they were helping contribute to the overall recovery of the business after an event like 2008. And that ended up becoming what is kudos today. And through that. We had a scenario where all of our agency clients, were asking why our people are so damn happy. And we said, well, we built this thing internally, we call it kudos. And it allows anybody to recognize anyone else at any time and improves communication. It's basically a cultural Internet, and the team seems to love it. And they started asking if they could use it. And so we said, Sure, why not. And then we decided, hey, maybe we can sell this thing and went out on the road to do a couple of trade shows to see if that would be possible. And we kind of arrived on the scene early on with really in about 2009 was the one of the first if not the first social recognition platform. You know, it I think we were doing just about the same time Twitter was coming out. And, you know, and Twitter was doing something similar, and we were looking to do that just internally for organizations and, and from there, we, you know, ended up selling off the agency and focusing on the software solution and my business partner and I started pushing that ball up the hill. And next thing you know, we're in 80 countries around the world and the web in different languages and never changing the world one thank you at a time.

Kyle Roed: 4:37

Here we go. I love that. It's, it's really interesting to kind of hear, hear the story. It's like so you didn't like wake up one day and you're like, I'm gonna build this recognition platform and go sell it like you tested it out. internally. I'm curious, you know, if you go back to that you mentioned that you figured out the secret weapon was, was wrecked. ignition, what was what was the kind of the aha moment for you that, that there might be something here to build out that, that could drive your culture the way it needs to go?

Tom Short: 5:10

Well, the, you know, it was kind of a scenario where we were searching, you know, for options and ideas, I happen to be reading the book, first break all the rules at that point in time, and it identified the q 12, I had the first time I'd come across that about getting feedback. And it really focused in on what did the best performing performing companies in the world do differently than their cohorts, or the worst performing groups? And it really came down to, you know, these 12 essential elements of does my boss care about me personally, professionally? You know, do I have a best friend at work? Do I know what's going on at work? Have I been recognized in the last seven days, and when we went through that we went, you know, that, you know, there's a lot of truth there, you know, it's not all about money. It's not all about, you know, the material things, you know, where everybody else at that point in time, when we went out searching for solutions, was really heavily focused on rewards, just give your people stuff, you know, give them perks, give them incentives, give them rewards. And you know, of course, you know, coming out of a down cycle, you also don't want to spend a whole lot more money. So what was it that we could do to, you know, get the biggest bang for our buck. And also, you know, engage our team and improve the relationship we had with them. And it turned out that just, you know, acknowledging them and letting them know that their efforts were valued, seen and appreciated, and empowering them to also do that with everyone else. Seemed like the simplest solution at that point in time. Because, you know, thank yous are endless, you can give that as much as possible. And you can never give too many thank yous as it might be. And really, the epiphany came when you know, we were doing this in person in our town halls and meetings, one on ones, yet, it was always fleeting, like, you know, people would always come and ask me, you know, hey, how am I doing today, Tom? And I'm like, You're doing great, Kyle, you're killing it. You know, you're one of our best employees. And then the next time you come and ask the same question again, then I'm like, Did I not tell Kyle yesterday that he's awesome. Maybe I didn't. But when we started doing it online, in a social space, where everyone could, you know, comment on the messages and like messages and amplify them. That went away, everybody just started really feeling appreciated at that point in time. And it was just as simple as putting it in a place where it was, it provided that ongoing affirmation that the person was appreciated and valued. And they also got to see all the appreciation going on with all of our other team members in different departments and divisions. Because if you're over 300 feet away from somebody, you might as well be on the other side of the country, you're not going to bump into them on any given day. And you're most most likely not going to be able to see how they're contributing and what they're doing. But when you create a social forum, like kudos, that all just comes to the surface, and it can make a significant change in how people feel about the company, their community within the company, and, you know, and are the outlook where you can reinforce your purpose, vision and mission and values, you know, and, and reinforce the pay behaviors, through simple thank yous that lead to the results that you're looking for. So as it was, you know, just that epiphany of focus on the little things, and then the big things will take care of themselves.

Molly Burdess: 8:58

Yeah, but that creates some engagement between departments, which I think a lot of companies really struggle with. So I'm curious when you watch this, because I know a lot of organizations are struggling with this, and few who add the platform should accompany culture, but if the flow burn, right, it's a struggle to lodge what how did you launch this successfully?

Tom Short: 9:21

Well, it you know, we were already doing a lot of things, right. And then a lot of companies do a lot of things right, by having, you know, proper, you know, one on ones and team meetings and town halls and, you know, and trying your best but then those are just, you know, points in time. You know, having a continuous flow of communication and recognition is where the success comes from. In You know, it's not like random acts of culture, its culture all the time. And, and that makes a pretty big difference in the success or or failure. And, you know, there's so many communication collaboration tools out there, we were just mimicking what they were doing. But instead of focusing on on purely business and getting things done, we started focusing on why are we doing what we're doing? What is the purpose of the company? You know, what do we stand for? What are our core values? And how do you contribute to those items every day so that we could get alignment, and, and also energize everybody. Because, you know, bad news travels fast, you know, around the world. And then good news often doesn't get its fair share of the limelight, we're really just trying to, you know, spotlight that for people, and that's where you start to see the magic.

Molly Burdess: 10:50

Okay, so you mentioned something earlier about peer to peer recognition, you know, and all the data you have and what you found, do you see like that more important than leader recognition? Are there any correlation? What does that look like? Well,

Tom Short: 11:04

you know, peer to peer is very important, you know, to create that community and camaraderie between team members. And really peer to peer is a supplement or support to manager to team, you know, the higher level the recognition that comes from, you know, from a sea level to a vice president or director, or manager or supervisor, it's very important. And that's one of the greatest challenges with most people's programs is how you get those very busy people to that take a moment to recognize others. And where the peer to peer comes in is it also becomes a bit more visible for the senior leaders because they don't see what's going on every day. And when peer to peer recognition is flying around, they can get in there and like and comment on things or learn things and add on sending their own recognition. So really, where we see the greatest value with a product like kudos is the insights that it provides to senior leadership as to who's contributing, who's connected to who, how are they contributing, and who, you know, and what those efforts are leading to as far as an outcome. And, you know, so it's not so much as the recognition is the the powerful tool for the senior leaders, it's more about the insights, and then that allows them to, you know, join the recognition, you know, that is already being sent out.

Kyle Roed: 12:41

It's really interesting, you know, I hadn't really thought about that. But it's almost like, on demand, on demand feedback, or surveys on how, you know, how engaged are people, you know, who's recognizing others? Typically, those are the people with highest morale. Right, it was getting recognized.

Tom Short: 12:58

And it's contagious. Like when you see other people do it. You know, we actually say to everyone, you know, everyone's job description should have that as one of the core things that you should be doing, you should, you know, recognize and praise your teammates for doing great work. And, you know, and specifically when you start to get into leadership positions, because you hit the nail on the head, Kyle is that, you know, it's, it is like, you know, unsolicited, immediate 360 feedback, because when you ask people questions, and you push polls out there and surveys to ask for their input it, Julie, because you don't know what the heck's going on, and you need to find out. But when you have an open forum that's, you know, very focused on all the positive things that are happening, and everyone's just freely contributing to it based on the things that are happening on a day to day basis. You can't get better insights than that, on what's really happening in your company. You still need the feedback and the surveys to balance that out from sentiment surveys and pulse surveys and then more in depth surveys. But you'll also have an excellent feel of what's really happening within your organization and within your team. By just being a fly on the wall and watching what transpires.

Molly Burdess: 14:23

In my experience, especially to senior leaders, I feel like they fear either one good thing or one bad thing about a person and it becomes like a bias in their head, right like, well, this person is good or this person is bad. And I think something like this can really help eliminate some of that.

Tom Short: 14:39

Yeah, absolutely. It's it's more fair, because it's happening in real time. And, and the great thing about recognition is that if somebody isn't contributing, or isn't a good team player or is not gelling with their team, it's pretty evident, because, you know, you can see who's getting the recognition and who's not. Now some people will get lots more recognition than others just by the nature of their job and the nature of their personality. But whether you get, you know, three messages in a month, or 30 messages in a month, and just importantly, how many did you send? Not what did you just get, but what have you given? And that also says a lot about a person, you know, are they your future leadership potential? You know, are they the high potentials that you want to nurture within your company? Because they are showing leadership qualities?

Kyle Roed: 15:37

Yeah, that's where my head goes, the, you know, the person that's, that's doing this the most is probably probably the most positive influencer, you know, that we need to be thinking about, okay, this person might have future, you know, future leadership potential, or maybe they're just super happy. And I just, I need them to go infect others with their, you know, their, their positive vibes.

Tom Short: 15:58

Absolutely. It's funny, because over the years, you've seen different people try to measure, you know, how are they doing in different ways? Is my team happy? Is my team satisfied is my team engaged, and you can have a happier satisfied person, that's not a very good employee, you know, maybe that's why they're happy and satisfied, because they're just skating by, you know, kind of a situation, right? Yeah, what you're looking for are the people that are, yeah, you want to look at, at the people who are engaged in or leaning in and contributing, you know, and, you know, and, you know, sure you want happy employees, and you want them to be satisfied with the things that you do and provide for them, but what you truly want them to be is, is engaged and contributing in positive ways, in their role and as a cultural leader. And that all goes back to core values, you know, alignment purpose, your, you know, the, you know, the individual is, you know, a good hire, and, you know, and aligned and overlapping with what you want to do as an organization.

Kyle Roed: 17:08

I'm sitting here laughing, and nobody can see the video, but I'm like, I'm like, covering a smirk because I kid you not, and this organization shall remain nameless, but I used to work in an organization where they would force everybody to circle, a smiley face or a frowny face to, to try to do like a daily sentiment analysis. And then they would like measure, you know, every department against each other, it was just the most, it was the most ridiculous thing. And like the most like, it was like, What is this kindergarten, like? Warm Fuzzies are called Pericles? Like, what are we doing here? But, but what you just described to me is a much more systemic and more functional way to understand, Okay, how are people feeling? You know, you know, obviously, I'm assuming that you're, you'll probably see those who recognize more are probably feeling better, you'll probably there's probably a correlation between performance for organizations Walk, walk me through, like, you know, kind of the that ROI count, you know, how, how do we determine, you know, if this is working, or how we're doing as it relates to rewards and recognition systems?

Tom Short: 18:12

Absolutely. What most people when they reach out to us, it's usually because they've run a survey and understand that their team is less than impressed with what is going on in the organization, and, and maybe morale is suffering. Usually, turnover is, you know, a key indicator that things aren't going so well. And so when they do reach out to us, they're looking to improve engagement by enhancing morale and ultimately reducing turnover. And even with the whole, quiet, quitting, or disengagement kind of conversations that are going on now today, how do I get people more engaged to, you know, to love their job and to contribute more? So you're in those scenarios when they have that question, they come to us and then also ask, what does success look like and you'll typically see things once kudos is rolled out where employee net promoter scores will start to improve because they feel better about the company, their role and their manager. And you'll also see morale scores or any kind of commitment scores improve and with that, it just automatically correlates to an improvement in retention. And even in exit interviews, we'll see a scenario where pre kudos they'll be, you know, listing not feeling valued at work as one of the top three reasons that they've made a decision to move on. And after kudos we typically see that come completely off of the engagement survey or way down the list because still have Adding a tool doesn't mean everyone's still doing it, right. But it will help improve reach and consistency, and visibility. And it's also empowering because you're inviting the team to do it. So you start to see things change wholesale, pretty quickly, within one year, within, you know, three to six months, you can see a noticeable improvement, especially when somebody has told you through a survey that I don't feel valued. And then of course, the worst thing you can do with any survey is take all that feedback, and then do nothing. But if you take that feedback, and people say, I don't feel valued, or I don't feel appreciated, or I haven't been recognized in the last seven days, or ever, you know, by putting in a program like kudos, the team hears knows that you've heard them, and they appreciate the fact that you're trying to do something about it. And then it's the execution of the program to really take full advantage of it. And then that leads to all those positive outcomes.

Molly Burdess: 21:01

Quiet quitting, and a hot topic. What are your guys's thought? Here? Yeah.

Kyle Roed: 21:08

I have thoughts. I'm gonna let time

Tom Short: 21:11

I'm gonna reverse this podcast on your chi, what do you think? Okay,

Kyle Roed: 21:15

I think quiet, quitting is bullshit. And it's just, it's just something that's existed since the beginning of people working for other people. But we're just labeling it something so that we can, you know, blame it on a new hot topic and sell some some HR content.

Tom Short: 21:29

So the new it's a new word for new, it's all about this engagement. And, you know, and when people become disengaged, there's a little bit of, you know, a discussion around, you know, is it about work life balance or work life blending? You know, I think that's always been there where, you know, you know, people need to be responsible for their own efforts and input. You know, and I've always seen with all of my team members and various companies where, you know, you know, when people are engaged, they're leaning in, but they still, you know, don't overdo it, they don't, you know, they're not working 12 hours a day, and being forced to are expected to maybe that's a Silicon Valley phenomenon, or a Wall Street phenomenon, but in the rest of North America, you know, I think people don't feel compelled to work in that way. But at the same time, you know, you know, quiet quitting isn't about work, you know, I think that most people are talking about people just doing enough to get by so they don't get fired. And that comes back to people, you know, poor hires, as well as disengagement, like the company doing wrong things. So it is just a new word for new in a lot of ways. And it's really kind of get back to the core elements of, of, you know, focus on your people take care of them, you know, hold them accountable, and give them challenging work to do. Create a great atmosphere for them to do it in and watch them go. And they'll do great, and you won't have to worry about quiet quitting or disengagement. Because all people want to do is be part of a good community have an opportunity to learn and grow and and know that they're valued and appreciated. Get those three things, right. No problems.

Kyle Roed: 23:22

Simple, um, Wally? Tom, I, you know, I do think the one area that where I think the quiet quitting conversation is interesting is, is the value that people place on work, and some people just place more value than others. And, you know, there's, for some folks that that are perfectly fine, just coming in and doing the absolute job description that they are expected to do every single day and go home and not think about it after they go home, you know, good for them. So I also think kind of the context that we talked about quite quitting expect, especially as you know, as HR people, we're typically type A, and we're all thinking, you know, work, work, work and thinking in those terms. And, you know, so I think that context is wrong, because not everybody is coming from it, coming at it from the same perspective, either. Some people might think like, quitting is just normal, that just means I'm good at my job, and I don't take it home with me. Well, people like me are like, well, that's just that's a travesty. Because I get a lot of enrichment from work, and I want work to be valuable, and you know, and challenging. And so, I think that's an interesting conversation. But again, it's not new. I mean, that's just that's just ever said, somebody said, Hey, I'll give you this many seashells to move this. Move this thing from here to here. People have been finding ways to work as little as possible to achieve that goal.

Tom Short: 24:42

Even at the end of the day, like you know, we believe in a row work environment like it's results oriented. You know, if you can get your job done quickly and find time, more time in the day to do things that you enjoy. Good on. Yeah, but hopefully the things that you're doing at work is something that you do Enjoy, and that you align, you know, your purpose, your why is aligned to the corporation's or company's purpose or why we're very fortunate with the product that we've created in our selling, you know, it is something that our team members can really get behind, because they know they're making a difference, like our mission statement is to help people reach their full potential through, you know, you know, feeling more connected at work, and to connect it to their, their job connected to their, their team, and, you know, and connect it to the purpose of the company. And by doing that, you know, you should do what you love. And if you're doing a job that you absolutely hate, maybe you should be doing something else, because those are the people that are, you know, opt in just mailing in. And, you know, what, are getting those labels of quiet quitting?

Kyle Roed: 26:01

Will you open Pandora's box there? Molly, what else you got?

Molly Burdess: 26:04

I know, Global Add, I add it I like to

Kyle Roed: 26:10

spicy? If you have a I have a question. Tom. You know, I think one of the things that's really interesting is, you know, the focus for kudos is not necessarily stuff, you know, or swag. So, so I'm curious on the, you know, kind of the thought process there where it's truly more of a recognition platform, but not necessarily associated with with, with things. So no,

Tom Short: 26:36

yeah, we that theory? Yeah, absolutely. So we're a recognition and communication first platform, because that's what helps improve the employee experience. You know, people appreciate rewards, but rewards aren't appreciation. You know, they're really, you know, bribes to say, if you do this, I'll give you that. And rewards are great for short term goals, like, you can use rewards to say, hey, if we achieve this in the next 30 days, or we achieve this, in the next six months, you know, you will receive this bonus, or you will receive, you know, these these special items or gifts or trinkets, but it won't, it's not sustainable. And it's not something often that you know, the reward even off, it isn't something that's equitable, like not everybody can participate it. So it can create lots of problems within an organization. Because of that, you know, being, you know, unfair, like the sales team always gets there, you know, trips and presidents clubs, and, you know, and all those types of things. And all of the folks that are carrying the water everywhere else, are ignored. So, you know, going to something where everyone's empowered to participate and recognize and appreciate one another is very important. Now, that being said, we do within our system, allow for individuals to turn on some of those other elements of point systems and monetizing those points systems and using those points for fun or gamification, or using those points for, you know, redemptions. But we always believe that it should be what we call casual rewards, it doesn't need to be go to the beach money. It's just small elements that an individual can, you know, earn these points through the accolades and recognition they've, they've received, and then can redeem for something that they want, whether it's like my case, I've been redeeming for Starbucks cards for the last 10 years, and haven't bought a coffee for a long time. And it's just my little guilty pleasure. It's not, you know, it's not part of my compensation strategy or anything like that. It's just something that reminds me that I work for a cool company that cares about me, but what really matters and what I you know, what, what I truly appreciate what makes me lean in is that connection to the my teammates, and the recognition that I get as well, even as being a leader in the company, that still feels good in those situations. But, you know, if you keep the focus on rewards and points, that's where you can lead to many unintended outcomes that are not good for the business.

Molly Burdess: 29:27

Yeah, I couldn't agree more. Sounds like you're creating a culture of gratitude, which I think is so powerful.

Tom Short: 29:33

Absolutely. Absolutely. And you know, and millennials and z's, and, you know, you know, they get it, they appreciate it. Everything's about close power. You know, it's just as likely that a young person coming into a new business will link in with the CEO and the, you know, when I started in my career, that was pretty unusual to, there weren't any tools to do that type of thing. It would just be a random collision of bumping into some senior leader at some event where you might have a chance to have a conversation. But, you know, it's all about that connection with today's generation and workforce, not, you know, even boomers like myself, you know, I appreciate that connectivity with all of the team members throughout kudos, where I just didn't have that in the old days, it'd be rare to bump into somebody on a on any given day, but now I can go on to the wall and see what's happening and comment and, and now I have something else that I can bring up with, you know, different individuals when I do see them. Which, you know, again, you can just further amplify, you know, that culture of gratitude, as you just said, Molly, it's really important.

Kyle Roed: 30:48

That's very cool. So I have a thought exercise, Tom, because I love the fact that you use the term bribe. I think, Molly, I think we should just lean in, we're going to start a startup company called employee bribe.com. And we'll just, we're just going to own it. Right. We're just going to roll with it.

Tom Short: 31:04

Yeah, exactly.

Kyle Roed: 31:08

This has been an just an awesome conversation, I think, some really, maybe some provocative things to think about. And if anybody wants to talk about quite quitting, shoot me a note, we'll have a good conversation. I do want to

Tom Short: 31:24

know how you really feel about it, Kyle? Yeah.

Kyle Roed: 31:28

I'm a really reserved guy. So you know, you're just gonna have to get to know me. Okay. Tom, it's been a wonderful conversation, I'm going to shift gears, we're gonna go into the rebel HR flash round, are

Tom Short: 31:39

you ready? Right on?

Kyle Roed: 31:41

All right, here we go. Question number one, where does HR need to rebel?

Tom Short: 31:45

You know, HR needs to, you know, start looking at, you know, culture as a core HR feature, not a add on way after the fact. You know, you know, sure you need your payroll benefits, you know, performance management, onboarding tools. But, you know, I think the argument can be made that culture is a core HR item, often too many organizations put it last at their own detriment. And it's almost like an afterthought, and, you know, and, you know, where HR needs to rebel is they need to move that further up in their strategy and initiatives to take advantage of the most ubiquitous, far reaching cost effective, you know, tool that they can put in their repertoire, to create a great culture and, and provide value to the organization. In regards to helping drive performance. It's as simple as a thank you, and it's crazy that people is, you know, put that last.

Kyle Roed: 32:57

I couldn't agree more. And I'm going to assume, as a senior executive, that you care a whole lot more about that than some of the other things that you mentioned that that's probably at the pinnacle of what you really care about as a senior leader.

Tom Short: 33:11

Oh, absolutely. A lot of the tools that are, you know, core HR are more for administrative and, you know, you know, the leadership's needs to streamline things and get data and to understand what's going on, you know, that we need to flip the coin, where you have to say no, what are the tools that help our employees, and that they value and, and can still give us those same types of, of insights? Sure, we need payroll system, sure, you got to manage benefits. Sure, you got to book your holidays, you know, ensure you have to do performance reviews, which everybody dreads doesn't matter who you are, you know, at what level you are, it's never a super pleasant experience. Even if it's good, you just dread it. But, you know, if you start focusing on, you know, that community connection, and, you know, reinforcing the right behaviors that lead to the big outcomes, you'll get further faster with a happier team that isn't quite quitting.

Kyle Roed: 34:22

KENNETH Hold on there. All right, question number two,

Tom Short: 34:25

they're just poking you poking the bear. Appreciate it, what

Kyle Roed: 34:28

should we be listening to?

Tom Short: 34:31

Well, you know, I've done a big reader. I like to look at a lot of different people that are putting out thought leadership on the topic. But you know, some of that kind of goes back to the you know, the fun items, you know, so much reading a bit listening and of course, a lot of these folks will have podcasts and webinars but you know, even all Patrick Lencioni his books are awesome and quick little reads, you know, little fables that are have true isms in that, you know, going all the way back to. When we first started kudos, Dr. Paul Marcion wrote a book carrots and sticks don't work and he's still a leader on those topics and Kevin Cruz, but you know, obviously the, you know, the the ones that stand out the most all the time that are putting out great content or everyone from like, the Josh parisons of the world, to Gallup and other organizations. But you know, I'm a, I'm a little all over the place in regards to who I would recommend, and I would say I'm listening to, but a lot of those items are good, the the book that I'm kind of most engaged with right now is the core value equation. It really talks about how your core values and core value driven organizations are the ones that are the most successful and, and, you know, just a lot of good reads out there. So those would be just a few of the subject matter experts and, and, and a few of the books that I would look into out there.

Kyle Roed: 36:04

Love it, the I literally have the Patrick Lencioni books just right here on the back, back of the wall, and I just pulled him out for an org. Org, restructure discussion and management team building. So

Tom Short: 36:15

they're, you know, they're bang on. And, you know, it's funny, because it doesn't change that much. There's just this, you know, element that going back to when Lencioni start wrote his first books to, you know, the ones that you just came out recently, they all still go back to the same basic concepts, you know, treat your people well, you know, your people will then take care of your customers, your customers will then take care of the business. And it's, you know, do things in that order. Yep.

Kyle Roed: 36:51

Don't outsmart your common sense. Right? That's right. All right. Last question here. Such good content, how can our listeners connect with you and learn more about you and kudos?

Tom Short: 37:00

Lincoln with me, I'm just Tom short kudos on LinkedIn, you can find me there, I'd be happy to link in and have a conversation or they can reach out directly to kudos@qudos.com and engage us through our website. And, and you're usually going to run into me somewhere along that path.

Kyle Roed: 37:24

Love it. We'll have all that information in the show notes. And just really appreciate the time here, Tom. I know you're a busy guy. So the time spent is much appreciated. So Thanks, Greg.

Tom Short: 37:35

I appreciate the opportunity. And, and I also learned a lot from you, both of you. So thank you very much.

Kyle Roed: 37:42

Thank you. Thanks, Molly. Thanks, guys. Good bye, Molly. All right. That does it for the rebel HR podcast. Big thank you to our guests. Follow us on Facebook at rebel HR podcast, Twitter, at rebel HR guy, or see our website at rebel human resources.com. The views and opinions expressed by rebel HR podcast are those the authors and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of any of the organizations that we represent. No animals were harmed during the filming of this podcast. Maybe