RHR 164: HR Like a Boss with John Bernatovicz

Kyle Roed: 0:02

This is the rebel HR Podcast, the podcast about all things innovation in the people space. I'm Kyle ROED. Let's start the show. Welcome back rebel HR listeners. This is gonna be a fun one with us today, we have John Bernard KOVITCH. John is the founder of an organization called willory, which is a staffing and consulting firm for HR and payroll professionals amongst a number of other services. He is also the author of an awesome book that I encourage you to check out HR like a boss. It is currently available in bookstores all around the country. And with us, we also have Molly progress. John, welcome to the podcast.

John Bernatovicz: 0:48

Kyle, thank you very much. Congrats on a correct pronunciation of my last name that I have to stay on the podcast. It has been butchered out. I can tell you at a later date the funniest pronounce it pronunciation that ever happened when I was a very young kid playing in a golf tournament. And Molly, I really appreciate your time as well. I can't wait to talk all things innovation, HR HR, like a boss, whatever other topics you dig into. Yeah, well, let's go.

Kyle Roed: 1:19

Super excited about you know, I was really worried about pronouncing John, but I figured it out. So you know, progress. Away goes. Well, John, thank you so much in and I also want to thank you had the opportunity to be a guest on on Jon's show, as well. So really excited that we convinced you to to return the favor here. I want to talk about a couple different things, you know, you've got a varied background, you've been, you know, got your expertise in with ADP, and you've done some, some work in the HR world for quite a while. So I'm curious what prompted you to write a book about human resources.

John Bernatovicz: 2:03

Couple things. Number one, I was inspired by my parents, my parents, unfortunately, both passed away in about a 13 month span of 2019 to 2020. And my dad was an executive CEO for 30 years. And I got to ride his coattails a bit and learn from the experiences that I saw him LEED, a 1200 employee regional hospital system in our community. And then my mom was a macrobiotic diet didn't believe in medicine, artists who actually I know it's a podcast can't see the painting behind me. But she she was a watercolor artist. And when they passed away, I, like many, as I've heard, went through the grieving process. And one of the things that came out of the other end of it was what have I not done in my life that I want to make sure that I accomplish? And this write a book thing and not at me because I have some friends in the HR space, Chris Don Tim Sackett, Ben Eubanks, D. Brown, who all had written books, and I met them, I've hung out with them, I've broken bread with them. And I said, they're not that much different than me. They just had an urge and inspiration to write a book. So anyway, I started writing this book, that is not the one not HR, like a boss, and my marketing director, and I were talking about the progress of me writing this book after I had that inspiration. And I was struggling to write. And she said, Do you remember that presentation you did in 2018? at Kent State, my, my alma mater, and they ultimately did it at a regional HR conference called HR like a boss. She said, maybe you could start writing that book, or pivot to writing that writing on that content, because we already have an outline for it. It was well received by the HR community and PS, it probably would do good for our brand, as a staffing and consulting firm in HR and Payroll. And I immediately pivoted that, and it started flowing HR, like a boss started coming out of me in and I call it the written form. And the coolest part for me is I actually hated reading books when I was younger, actually, almost two years ago, younger and back. If I go back to my early early years, I did I did okay in school, simply because I was one of those students that showed up and paid attention and sat in the front of the class. I guess you'd call me a nerd. I did wear glasses as well, at that time, but I just paid attention what the lecture the teacher said. And ultimately, I had this moment where I need I need to get past this I need to learn how to consume content in that regard. So I, I actually found a really cool audio platform to buy books and then a buying I bought 100 books over the last two plus years while I was writing my book. And long story short, the outline was there and I read one of the books I read was a time Like habits, I think Kyle and I talked about that on our podcast and it taught me to pair a new habit with an existing habit. And so every morning, Saturday and Sunday for about a year, while my kids and wife were still enjoying a, a sleep full morning, I got up and tried to power through 1000 words every week. And that was my goal. If I can get 1000 words, every weekend for a year, I'll get 50,000 words. And lo and behold, end up getting the 70,000 and the publisher from Sherm books. So that's a hell, that's a healthy, substantial HR book. And that's, that's my story on how I got to it. The last thing I'll add on that Kyle, and Molly is, I really study HR from a business perspective, I look at it, not as a practitioner at times, because I don't practice HR every single day, I'm blessed to have people inside of my team that do that, at the same time, are my customers human resources, and I see a tremendous opportunity, almost a responsibility for HR to elevate its game to do it in an amazingly awesome way. That's like a boss. And the reason for it is our communities need it and our employees and leaders need it. And the fact that there's such poor engagement level inside of organizations that you see, from any survey that you get out, whether it's McKinsey telling us that or Gallup, and at the same time, I just I hate the I hate the figure that tells me 80 to 90% of employers, or excuse me, 80 or 90% of employees don't think their employers care about them. That seems like a major whiff, Swing and a miss with the bases loaded. And we got to do something about it. And I wrote the book with content in there as to how to try to shift that mindset of human resource professional just to do their job a little bit differently, and a little bit better.

Kyle Roed: 6:51

Yeah, I couldn't agree more. And, you know, you're really hitting on the reason why this podcast exists. Because, you know, I think there's a, there's a number of professionals in our, in our seats, that, that see the opportunity for HR to create that positive ripple within our organization, not by completely eliminating the things that we do, but by focusing on the way that we do our work. And so, you know, I'm curious, you know, the title is, I love the title, great title. But, you know, my thesis has always been, you know, HR needs to step up to the plate, not just because we know HR, but because we know the organization, and step up as strategic leaders and and be the sounding board for decisions related to people and talent and objectives. And the, the, a little bit of the voice of reason and conscious and within an organization so is is that the the the thesis that you wrote this book on or kind of walked me through the, you know, the titling, and then kind of the overarching viewpoint of the book.

John Bernatovicz: 8:01

I grew up in the 70s and 80s. And my brother was a huge Bruce Springsteen fan. They called him the boss and I thought he was a badass and just really loved his music. And I looked up to my brother, so anything my brother did, I did and I liked. That was the first term that came to mind that boss mentality that that Bruce Springsteen has and his way of not only just being the frontman, but he has a huge E Street Band. He's got this following of people. I saw him recently in concert, and he was still rocking at 70 plus years old. It was crazy. It's crazy to see. And he's he's been, I'll call it resilient, and flexible and evolving in his career on Broadway and has his own show on Netflix, I think are one of the streaming devices besides just cranking out his love for music. That was the first thing that got me to the idea of boss. I then started seeing all these memes and gifts or whatever the words you use to describe those things on social media and internet and there's people doing this term like a boss. And then I got this idea to do a presentation called HR like a boss. And to Kyle's point, I don't know whether they liked the content they liked the name. I had a sellout crowd at Kent State at a sellout crowd at the Pittsburgh HR conference standing room only. And I they didn't know who I was, they just liked the title and maybe because there was some free credit they were getting. And then I felt inspired I better come up with some there might better be something to this name inside of these this presentation are inside of the the book cover. And so really HR like a boss is centered around loving what you do. And taking ownership for your responsibilities truly owning what what you're responsible for, and having a passion for it. And then there's five main sections of the book. Think differently, be different, be better, take action make an impact. Those are the components of it inside Out of those sections, we then break down chapters that really drive what I'm hoping is more meaningful work for employees so they can improve their engagement level. We can drive HR professionals can drive business results for the organization, because that's what we do we work for a company, they pay us money to drive results and not losing sight of that. And then if we do those things, both really well, then why can't we do something good in our community that is needed that our organization aligns to. And the last thing I'll say on the book, and I could talk forever about it, because I've spent so much time studying it and rereading it. And that's an interesting exercise. But the money slide the money chapter in the book is one around treating your job like a business. And inside of it, when you write a book, you have a lot of really bad ideas that when you write them down, you receive them. And you're, you say to yourself, can I how quickly can I get that in an incinerator, or a shredder, so no one can ever consume that. And then every once in a while, you'll hit on something. And the money chapter in my opinion, is chapter 14 of the book, which is treat your job like a business where we break down five key elements to it. And the first element, they all start, have this rhyming convention, or whatever the whatever the word is PC, have a purposeful commitment, be people centric, help your firm produce consistently, have process continuity, and understand the profitable components of your business. And inside of that chapter, it outlines how you can implement an HR LIKE A BOSS plan to help your organization really get centered on what's most important, and ensure your HR team is aligned to that purpose and the values and what you're trying to get accomplished. So that's, that's HR like a boss. In a nutshell, Kyle and Molly. Hopefully you want to buy the book now. Where else? Thank you. Yes,

Molly Burdess: 12:00

absolutely can't wait. So to Kyle's point earlier about, you know, really knowing the business. And I heard you kind of talk about that as well. I'm sure there's a lot of HR professionals that are like, Oh, I'd love to know more about my business, what makes us profitable, who our customers are. But I don't I'm not there yet. What advice do you have for them on where to start in that journey? And how to get there?

John Bernatovicz: 12:21

Yeah, great question. And that, it to me, it starts if they're already inside the organization, it starts with building relationships with other colleagues, you can start within your own department, because that's probably easiest. But then stepping outside of that, whether it's a cup of coffee, or going to lunch, or a coffee, or a cup of coffee that you have with an individual in another department, and whether it's marketing, whether it's finance, whether it's it, whether it's sales. And just as I hear you have a reputation, Molly and having listened to the podcast, just ask really good questions be very inquisitive. And I had one of my guests on my podcast that I ended up putting in the book, who talked about being consultative in your approach to your HR leadership and responsibility and a consultant isn't there necessarily to do the work. Sometimes they're there to uncover what's going on, identify the gaps and help the individual that they're consulting, figure it out on their own and guide and direct them in that regard. And to me, HR can't do all the jobs can't do sales, can't do the accounting closed, can't do the information systems, but they can better understand what it is that needs to be done to do that job well, so that they can support the leaders that have oversight of it, they can support the people that are doing it. And when it comes time for them to recruit, and acquire and develop talent, they have a better understanding of what does it mean to do it inside of our organization. So go buy one of those colleagues a cup of coffee, take them to Starbucks, people usually like that, and just wrap with them just build a relationship with that individual and ask them a lot of questions about their work. And more than likely they'll, they'll give you some nuggets that you'll learn along the way.

Kyle Roed: 14:14

Absolutely couldn't agree more, you know, that and I, you know, I kind of, I'm not as smart as Molly in this regard, I learned the hard way where, you know, I used to be very directive in my, my leadership capacity, you know, thou shalt do this because this is, this is the best practice. And, you know, quickly came to realize that that's not exactly how you engage and inspire, you know, an organization to adhere to, you know, HR recommendations, it's about helping people discover it within themselves, helping them understand the compelling rationale behind it and, and ultimately, being trusted and being an you know, an advisor, because you don't have direct authority over much of the work you do. And you know that That's a challenge for many who who struggle with people that? Just don't listen to them or don't? Don't, you know, don't agree.

John Bernatovicz: 15:08

Yeah, I think one of the key parts that we talked about in the book is, that's okay that you can't do that job. But there are elements of it that you can take ownership of. And one of them to Molly's question is just get to know the business, get to know the people that run it, understand what's important to them. And I don't know if in the book, there's any major gotchas, or I don't want to describe it as new ideas maybe framed a little bit differently. I've tried to run my business and operate in a executive level capacity and trying to make things as simple and as clear as possible. And don't miss the obvious. Building a relationship with someone in your IT department will benefit you and that you'll get to know them, you might make a new friend, or you'll have a new networking contact in your world that's a little different than you in their background. And then you'll understand what it is that they do every day. And you can help them in their job, and ultimately recruit or develop professionals in that department better. It's a pretty simple formula. Because then people when you know what they're talking about, they're gravitating to you, as opposed to no one in HR knows that it does, why would we go to them? Or all of a sudden they're in a meeting? Oh, no. Why are they here? Where we want the opposite of oh, hey, Molly, how are you, Ben? How are the kids, how's the dog you just got two months ago, how's whatever it is. And then all of a sudden, when you start talking shop, it's you've completely put yourself on a level playing field with them, as opposed to you're in the principal's office. That was one of the things I heard several times in researching my book, I don't like being an HR because I feel like I'm the principal, everybody hated the principal. And I said, Well, that's true. But I also know some cool principals who treated me like a human being not a subordinate, or you're gonna get in trouble kid when I was growing up. And I just think there's, again, it goes back to that relationship building the importance of getting to know people asking good questions, being inquisitive and curious. It's simple stuff, but people don't make time for it, because of a lot of different reasons. And maybe that's not what this show is about. But

Kyle Roed: 17:17

that's my take on it. Absolutely. You know, I think it's, I love nothing more than a burst of bubble that I actually know more than just HR stuff, right? Like, and my first career, my career was not, it didn't start in HR started in operations. And we talk I used to do a little it stuff. And then I kind of fell into HR just purely because, you know, I like people, you know, I don't know, throw caution here, have Kyle, go do it. Hey, Kyle, go hire 90 people. Right, like, and that's, you know, and so many of us have those stories, but it's like, I love I love the idea of like, like, take ownership, right? Like and treat your department like like an organization like the organization that it is. And also take ownership of the the level of impact that you have. And an org is massive, right? Like, and you are the expert. So if it's not you, as the expert of all of the people function, then who is right, and the reality is the organism organizations need us to be that and, and it starts with understanding the business, understanding the players, and, and giving sound advice. So I guess,

John Bernatovicz: 18:23

one of the things on that, Kyle, that that you mentioned that that I've discovered over the years and owning a business is that there's a there's a life there that exists in that company. And I've started six companies in my career, three of them, three of them are no longer for various reasons sold. One One was an epic failure, one was just kind of washed out. Now I still have three companies. And they're like my three other children in my mind, and they have a living, breathing dynamic to them. And I believe that if for example, in willory, my mainstay business, the one I spend most my time in, there's a dynamic there were people like willory, the business, they liked the concept of it, they liked the culture, the people that make it up, there's an organic pneus to it. And I think sometimes that can be the opposite that can happen inside of an organization. You I hate this company, their glass door is bad, we treat our customers poorly, our services, horrible or products get recalled or whatever. And then all of a sudden, the opposite of a good culture of a good place to work has this real feel to it as opposed to just a name on a sign? And I think as HR we need to bring our business to life and understand what its characteristics are as a living breathing thing. And then make the things that are really good amplified and make the things that are issues addressed those head on because more often than not, the reason why they're an issue. It has something to do with the person. It's It's not something that happened 15 years ago, or something's gonna happen 15 years from now, it's, it's the person leading that department, it's the interaction with customer service that's poor or good, and who's at the forefront of people miss human resources. And so I really feel that way. And I think as an HR professional, if you look at your business as a leaving living, breathing thing that we need to feed and care for, it needs to make money, a business gets juice, it's gasoline is profit. And how do we make sure we keep doing that day after day, week after week, year after year. So we have a business that's there to thrive and grow and do good in the community and do good for our employees, et cetera. That's, that's something I've learned and being in my seat it I'm required at times, because people will ask for a raise, and all day long, I'd love to give out as much money as I possibly can. But then all of a sudden, willory may not exist anymore, if I don't manage the financials appropriately. And that's, that's a balancing act for sure.

Molly Burdess: 21:07

Yeah, and I think a lot of times, that comes down to just simple transparency. You know, when I was kind of doing some research for this podcast, I had heard you say, in one of your podcasts that HR needs to be an advocate for our employees. But that can be also very challenging when you're stuck in the middle between, you know, these employees that do want to raise or they want to make more money, or they want more PTO, and you're trying to advocate for them, but you also have to balance the business eat in that profitability. And that can be a very hard position to be in, what advice do you have for HR individuals who find themselves in the middle of that and are struggling with it?

John Bernatovicz: 21:47

Read the book called never split the difference. The really great book, I'm forgetting the name of the author, Chris Voss is his name VA S S. Inside the book, it's really incredible, Molly and Kyle, and that he articulates how to deal with incredibly difficult negotiations was written by a former CIA or FBI hostage negotiator, who he was dealing with lives and really bad people, on the other end, not necessarily a raise a $5,000 Raise it was the stakes are incredibly high. And he used he called it tactical empathy, he ended up developing his ability to be empathetic to these terrorist. At the same time, he ended up having this negotiating style and, and directness about him, that he was able to get to the end of job without people being harmed. And inside the book, it's an awesome book in that there's real life scenarios that he talks about that he had to negotiate. And then he applies them into negotiating with your children, negotiating with your spouse negotiating with an employee. And there's just some really interesting tidbits inside of it of getting curious, mirroring what you hear making sure people understand where you're coming from. And it's a balancing act. And negotiation is a balancing act. And the title gets me because as a salesperson at times, client will say, I don't want to pay that fee. I want to pay this. And I used to say, well, how will we meet in the middle? Now it's every once in a while? Well, here's why we need to consider that higher fee structure, etc. It's really powerful stuff. And I think, again, getting curious, building relationships, understanding where the person is coming from, and then helping them understand where we can, as an organization, create that balance between what you're looking for as an employee, and what will continue to allow the business to be healthy.

Molly Burdess: 23:48

Yeah, and I think as an HR, we have a huge opportunity to be more transparent with our employees as well and help them understand the bigger picture. I think if we don't have that transparency with them, often. I find employees are just people in general, when they don't have the knowledge they need or information they need. They make up their own stories, right. And it's usually the worst. So if we can help them understand why decisions are made, or why we do things the way we do, I think it can be very impactful. And not only them but their leaders in the organization as a whole.

John Bernatovicz: 24:21

Yeah, the authenticity is important goes back to what we talked about earlier, if you don't have a rapport with the person, you're going into that salary negotiation with all of a sudden, you're just some person in HR, that's fending for the company. Or you go into that negotiation. Maybe you haven't dealt with that employee before, but you have a reputation as being approachable as being real as being genuine. And I think a lot of HR professionals that I've spoken with, they're concerned with Well, I know a lot of information what can or can I not share? And I think that's, I never forget, an HR executive shared, shared this sentiment with me that he felt some of the best HR profile shrooms are the ones that can handle the information that they're exposed to, and can then not use it in a way that is deterring people that are maybe not impacted by that information. So what people make or what happens behind the scenes when you have to do a termination or how people treat one another that maybe isn't, I'll call it public news. And I think in that sense, the ability for HR again, to be able to be rational about what can I share? What can I not? And how do I ensure I get to end the job in whatever I'm doing that makes this better for the employee, and makes it better for the business. And sometimes that can't be, sometimes that can't be, but we can aspire and try and make every effort to do that. And to me, again, it goes back to treating people like you want to be treated, having a relationship with them being smart about what you're what you're talking about, like knowing your business, understanding it, having your data, having the insights, and just just being just being genuine, being real, being back to your point, Molly transparent to the level that you can be so that people don't think you're some robot or you're just you're just a suit protecting the business.

Kyle Roed: 26:12

Absolutely. And it's a real risk. You know, it's look at any message board online, and you know, look at how they talk about HR here. It might not be a fun exercise for an HR professional to understand all this. This is how people think about us, but all right, with that in mind, I think we're gonna we're gonna leave it there. We're gonna switch gears, we're gonna go into the rebel HR flash round. Are you ready? I am. Yes. All right, here we go get after it. Question number one, where does HR need to rebel?

John Bernatovicz: 26:45

Wow, that's that's a that's a crazy, good question. And I know, I know, I should know the answer to that, because you gave it to me before Kyle. And I've heard on the podcast some of these questions that the primary thing for me is from from being rebelling in that regard, is ensuring that you look at your business at the very highest level as to what is the purpose? Why are we why is this? Why does this business exist? If you look at, to me, the most successful people, they have real intention around what they're doing. And they can answer the question, why are you doing that, and there's a consistent nature to it. I feel like sometimes businesses do not have that. And I that's not to me a mission, a mission is tactical, it's a beginning and end, we're gonna go do this, we're going to be the most powerful company in this area, we're going to win this dominance in this territory, or in this region or in this country. I think purposes is an intention. It's a why and it's unachievable. And to me, HR should, in my opinion, and I'm very, I guess, my my premise for saying this is based upon writing a book where I think the number one great idea out of it is have a purposeful commitment for your company, and yourself. And I think sometimes people lose sight of the fact that there's some stuff going on around them that isn't that great in their community. And they overlooked the potential that all those people that work at that business, probably care about that thing that's happening in their community, and can probably give time and maybe money to it, and so to can the business. And so I think that HR needs to understand how their business can make a difference and an impact in their community. And then learn from those nonprofits and community leaders that are impacted by that subject and figure out how their organization can help them. And my guess is people will gravitate to that meaning employees will find that interesting. The business leaders will find it interesting, the community will certainly appreciate it. And I give my my nephew a ton of props for this. Several years ago, he was looking at getting a job and he called me for career advice. And he he hit me with a moment and I almost fell out of my chair. He said Uncle John, so I don't want to work for a company that just makes a widget. I want to work for a company that makes a widget and does something good in the world. Like boom, why do you feel that way? And he answered my questions. And so net net, find your company's purpose, be incredibly intentional and clear about it. Align your leadership team around that purpose. And then get your get your employees, get your suppliers, get your customers all to understand why it is you're doing what you're doing. And my guess is the job of HR will be rebelling in a good way because we'll be able to celebrate engaged employees successful companies and making a difference in the community. Absolutely.

Kyle Roed: 29:44

Love it. All right, question number two, who should we be listening to?

John Bernatovicz: 29:48

All right, I plugged them already Steve Brown see browns, great friend and wrote the foreword to my book so I'll give him a plug for that made the intro to Sherm books the editor as well so huge fan of Steve, I love Tim Sackets work Tim's a great disrupter and likes to innovate and poke the bear on Twitter, which I think is always fun. say the same for Kristen don't see Chris as much now that he got back into corporate HR think he's running talent acquisition for Marriott, but still involved in in some some of that work. And then probably the most popular person I've been recommending people to check out in HR is Ben, Ben Eubanks, Ben is I'm not gonna call him the godfather of AI in HR, but he's put his slant on the impact of artificial intelligence on Human Resources has been talking about it well, before it became as trendy as it is today. And those are the four I would I would recommend that you check out the other the last one out an HR side, the last one that I had been working on or listening a lot about. Unfortunately, the author passed away. Trevor Noah ad, I think is how you pronounce his name. He talks about he wrote this book about getting to neutral. And basically, he's a performance coach, he worked with all the top end sports organizations, and Russell Wilson gives him all the praise for his success in Seattle and Super Bowl championship. And basically, Trevor wrote this book around, you can't go from negative to positive. If you're in a really bad mood, and somebody says to you, oh, just just think positively. My guess is you probably want to punch him in the face. He says, Get to neutral, which basically means just don't go don't You don't have to get the positive just get to neutral. Just in his suggestion is to the sports athletes that are thinking something negatively, just don't say it out loud, think it that's fine, think it figure out why you're saying it but don't say it out loud. And he wrote a really a couple of really cool books that a lot of work and unfortunately passed away early in life from cancer. And but his his work is really profound as you're trying to navigate through life and challenges, etc.

Kyle Roed: 31:59

Sidenote, I think the whole like the research on like, toxic positivity is really fascinating. Like, because we're all just kind of, especially in the Midwest, where like, just just smile through it, you know? It's not always great. No, no. Side note. We actually interviewed Steve on this podcast way back in episode 47. So yeah, feel free, we'll put that link in there, if you want to check it out. HR on fire is the name of that episodes, it was a ton of fun. Absolutely. One of my favorite human beings. So and happens to be a great HR professional too. So couldn't agree more. So all right. Last question. Thank you, again, for spending some time with us want to make sure that our audience can can check out some of the work that you're doing, get exposed to some of that great content, get their hands on the book, how can our listeners connect with you and continue to learn? Yeah, thanks.

John Bernatovicz: 32:56

website for the book and all things John Bernard riches, HR, like a boss.com HR like a boss.com. My company's website is willory.com wi ll o ry.com. I also give out my email anyone so they can email me anytime it's in my book. Actually, I saw that written by a couple authors. I thought that was cool. john@willory.com It's w i l l o ry.com. And John is Jo HN. And I'm on social media. You can find me LinkedIn, Twitter, Instagram, Facebook, if you can spell my last name, you can find me.

Kyle Roed: 33:33

Perfect, perfect. Well, we will have all that in the in the shownotes. So open up your podcast player, check it out. John, thank you so much for spending some time with us sincerely appreciate the time and what I am sure is an extremely busy schedule. And thanks as well for for putting out some of this great content into the world of HR and for sharing some of your your expertise with us today.

John Bernatovicz: 33:57

The same to you. Congratulations on the success of your podcast and kicking button HR. Keep it up. I love it.

Kyle Roed: 34:04

Thanks, John. Thanks for joining Molly. Thanks. All right. That does it for the rebel HR podcast. Big thank you to our guests. Follow us on Facebook at rebel HR podcast, Twitter at rebel HR guy or see our website at rebel human resources.com. The views and opinions expressed by rebel HR podcast are those the authors and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of any of the organizations that we represent. No animals were harmed during the filming of this podcast. Maybe