Revolutionizing HR and Emphasizing Diversity: A Conversation with Rick Hammell

Speaker 1: 0:03

This is the Rebel HR podcast, the podcast about all things innovation in the people's space. I'm Kyle Rode. Let's start the show. Welcome back Rebel HR community. This week is going to be a fun one With us. We have Rick Hamel. Rick is the author of Getting Shit Done, the Millennial CEO. He is also a founder and an HR practitioner. We are excited to have you Just looking at our backgrounds and comparing them side by side.

Speaker 1: 0:38

I have a feeling this is going to be a really fun conversation, and I was kind of chuckling here when we were just getting started. Right now we're recording this. It's right in the middle of open enrollment season. We were joking. This is almost going to be group therapy to some extent. Maybe a little bit. We'll have some fun with it. Rick, thank you again for joining us. Before we jump into it, I want to give you an opportunity to tell our audience a little bit about your background. Specifically, tell us about your journey as an HR practitioner and then, ultimately, as founder and author. I'm curious to understand a little bit more about that journey for you.

Speaker 2: 1:21

So, kyle, what's really exciting about that background is I initially did not want to get into HR. My background actually, I wanted to be a writer. I went to school for journalism initially. Then I actually had a situation that happened at work where I felt like I was not protected by the company and that kind of changed my trajectory of where I wanted to go. I felt like HR could have been a better support from an employer perspective, and so I took a step back. I reviewed what happened and I said, look, there's a better way to do it, and I changed my degree focus and went into business administration with focus on HR.

Speaker 2: 2:03

From there I went into HR for an organization that was a national company that focused on tax assessment yeah, really sexy there, right Tax assessment and then we went to. Then I left that organization and focused on a government contracting agency. That government contractor agency had a billion-dollar contract with the US government and that's actually where I got my initial exposure in government contracting on the global scale and HR management focusing on hiring talent and Saudi Arabia, singapore and Japan. And it was at that organization that I really focused on what was the best way to actually process payroll? How is the best way to onboard contracts, having to break that mentality of the US bias that I was used to at all employment, making sure social insurance what do you mean? Benefits are covered.

Speaker 2: 2:58

And I had to figure out how to walk through that middle-draw process and learn those processes and procedures. But while I was at that organization I saw there was a gap in the market for HR. There had to be an easier way to find talent and manage talent around the world and I tried to leverage certain writers and other solutions and I realized there was a gap there. I ended up leaving that organization after eight years, sold my house and invested into starting an organization which was an employer of record organization. Actually, funny enough, at that time the industry was called GlobalPEO and so I actually coined the term employer of record because I knew what a PEO was. An employer of record seemed like a better kind of definition of what we were doing and I took off with that company very quickly. That organization. I was the CEO for nine years and was super excited about that.

Speaker 2: 3:56

But, like everyone else, it was a time where I felt like I had to step down. I felt like there was more that I could do, more of an impact, and so I decided about four months ago to step down, focus on HR technology, simplify the overall global kind of workforce ecosystem and workflow and managing how you do that regardless of the employee status, so if it's under a client's entity, if it's an employer of record model, or if they're using contractors and having one ecosystem to manage that entire workforce management in one system. So that's what I'm doing now, but it's been a journey. Hr to me is not just the people department, but it's the department that really is there to help the strategic initiatives of the organization, and that's what I'm doing now.

Speaker 1: 4:42

Absolutely, and I'm over here I'm just kind of chuckling and nodding along with you. I didn't even know what HR was when I entered the workforce. So yeah, certainly similar stories where just kind of noticed an opportunity fell into it. I think the other thing that's really interesting is I appreciated that you were an HR practitioner and you observed that there was a gap in the marketplace and, as opposed to doing what many of us do, which is just like complain about it, throw our hands up and say, well, this is just what it is. You went and started a company and sold your house and bet on yourself, which is just supercool. So kudos for you for that journey. I'm sure that took some time. Some strong fortitude from your part, right?

Speaker 2: 5:44

Well, I'll tell you that. You know, my dad owned his own business, my grandfather owned his own business, so I think it was inevitable. But for me, my Achilles heel is to help people. Actually, that's why I got into HR right, I want to help people and I felt that if I'm having these same issues, others are having the same issues in HR and there had to be a better way to do it. And so being innovative and really thinking out a solution that was going to allow us to simplify how companies manage paid onboarded staff and talent around the world was really important to me, and that was successful. But I'm super excited about expanding that even further with this new company starting.

Speaker 1: 6:26

Yeah, super excited to hear a little bit more about it and I'll be fascinated to kind of follow your journey as you continue to work through it. So you know, I'm curious, you mentioned that you were an aspiring author and got an HR because you had a situation at work. So clearly you're somebody that kind of wants to get your, you know, get your hands dirty and solve problems and kind of figure out how to find solutions. I'm curious for switching, maybe switching gears into the author's side. What prompted you to write a book about getting shit done? Because, first of all, I just love the title but like why did that become something that you realized? Okay, this is a gap. This is an area where I think my perspective can help people be successful.

Speaker 2: 7:17

You know it's interesting. I was having a lot of conversations about you know what's a good leader, what's a good manager? You know how? Why am I successful? How was I successful? Not why, but how was I successful? And everyone kept telling me hey, you're so lucky, this is this. You were able to do this in the conferences. You must have this handed to you, and I had to remind a lot of people that no, as much as you know not everything at Glutus School that there's a lot that takes them to become successful.

Speaker 2: 7:51

Hr is not something you just wake up and learn how to do. You learn through a lot of mistakes. You learn through a lot of lessons and it's quite important that I showed that story. Like I, as a leader, as an HR professional, I made a lot of mistakes and the reason why I can be so passionate about what it is today is because I didn't know how to do it before and I had to learn how to do it. So when I wrote this book, I wanted people to understand that it takes time. If you know, you have to get things done. I used to.

Speaker 2: 8:23

I jokingly say some days in HR, you just want to have a bottle of wine, yeah, but the next day Just one, no, no way. Today, no judgment. No judgment here, but you know. But the next day you have to learn from that next day and see how you can do it better. And HR, for me, is an evolution. You learn how to do things every. You know. You learn things everything. Will it better every single day? The ability to learn from those mistakes and mistakes don't necessarily mean your mistakes. As HR, we carry the burden of the business as well, so we have to learn what we, what did we do? Right, we wrong, what we've done better, and we've got to constantly evolve in that.

Speaker 2: 9:07

And so this journey in the book kind of talks through that. In addition to that, when we talk about DEI, we talk about personal stories and personal experiences. We don't realize how much we are. Our past can influence who we are as leaders, as managers, and so really learning how to identify that's really important. In the journey there was a, you know, there was being a person of color.

Speaker 2: 9:33

There was something that I was always told when I was younger, which was you're gonna have to work twice as hard to get half, and that stuck in my head for a very long time, and so my I was always at 200%.

Speaker 2: 9:45

I always had to work at 200% as a leader. I realized, though, because I was working at 200%, I realized that when someone was even giving 100%, it seemed like half, and I had to realize that my past, my own experiences, my own traumas were influencing how I was setting expectations for employees and on leaders within my organization, and how I had to evolve from that and realize that I still may wanna work at 200%, because that's my norm now, but that's not everyone else's norm. So how do I, as a leader, adapt to that to make sure, when I'm setting up everyone up for success, setting proper expectations and making sure that we're being a good leadership company and setting people feeling they have opportunities and so I talk about that in that book as well is learning to identify your own traumas, when you have to identify what your own lessons, that we've learned and how that influence you as a leader, and how we can change that to make sure that we're creating a equitable opportunity for everyone to be successful and not just based on your own biases.

Speaker 1: 10:56

Oh, I love that comment and I think it's really powerful. It's a powerful message and I can certainly attest personally I've gone through that realization that your perspective, your context, is not somebody else's reality. And, like, the older I've gotten, the more I've matured in my career, the more I've realized that it's really shifted from like what we were trained were like best practices or something that we should be doing or a pace that we should be working as an example, into what I would call a little bit more acceptance that there's a lot more differences in how people get things done. That doesn't necessarily mean it's better or worse, it's just different. And I think one of the areas that I wanna dig into a little bit is that are those points of difference on a global scale?

Speaker 1: 11:52

And I had a very similar background to you. So I came out of I was working in primarily a US business there was a little bit of Canada and Mexico, but for all intents and purposes it was the United States Corporation. Right, there wasn't a whole lot of this international flair. And then I was thrust into a global organization where, like you said, it's like you're trying to figure out how do you wait, what is social insurance and what is the statutory requirement? What do you mean? They get all of these things 40 days off, like some of these, like realizations that oh wow, it is really different. And so for those of us that are maybe in global human resources or planning to go into global human resources or have that perspective, how do you manage through that, those points of difference and kind of the awareness of the different contexts that people have as a leader? And then how do you make sure that you're engaging people appropriately on a global scale?

Speaker 2: 12:49

I think it's important to have conversations, and not the conversations where you're going to talk at employees, but truly to listen. There are certain nuances that come in. I'll give an example of that. You know, being as a global organization, I've had I still had my unique biases. Being an American and kind of my American way, I've managed HR. Now, making sure legalities are managed compliantly, that's one thing, but really understanding cultural nuances is another. So I'll give an example of what I've done to my previous organization. That was kind of my aha moment, and this is recently. This is less than two years ago. So, as I talked about, always evolving, always learning is really important. But here's the story.

Speaker 2: 13:32

I went down to Brazil. I had about 50, 55 people in Brazil and I'm talking about how diversity is so important to us. Now I'm excited because I've just hired all these people in Brazil. I've got teams in South America Mexico and Colombia and other parts of the world South America and I'm going. We are so diverse. I've got a huge Latino population. I am so proud that I've got that box checked. Yes, I've hit my DEI goals, but when?

Speaker 2: 14:06

I was older. Right, we were like, yeah, we did it. But we went down like spoke to an employee who pulled me aside and this is nice, listening is really important and she said to me you know, you say you have transparency and I want to make sure you share me when I say this. You talk about DEI, but you are not diverse. And I said what do you mean by that? I said I'm looking at all of these people in this room and this is diversity. We have Brazilians. This is diversity for us. And they said to me Brazil is 56% of African descent and out of 50 something employees, you have one that is of African descent. How do you call yourself diverse when diversity in our own country is not representative here in this organization? And it was an aha moment to me.

Speaker 2: 15:04

I've talked about this a lot since that happened because I realized that my definition of diversity, or DEI, was very American, regardless of how global I had been, it was very much their Latino, their African, their Caucasian, their Asian. So they fit in those criteria boxes that we have in the US and that itself is diverse. But next I realized is that I use a term global, global, but global, global, that DEI has to be global. It's got to be on a global scale and a local scale that you have to think about your overall initiatives and in that you have to ask yourself what is diversity mean to that region that you're operating in and how do you ensure that you hold yourself accountable to that? That is that type of diversity. That's the lessons that we've learned as HR professionals. And as you ask how do we listen or how to cheer our teams, we've got to give them the opportunity to hold us accountable, like that example there.

Speaker 2: 16:09

Because I left Brazil, first call I made right before I got on a plane, was our head of HR and I gave her this exact same story, as you're right. Then we looked at the rest of the world and we realized we were still making the same mistake multiple times. So we had to figure out what's our newest initiative, what do we have to do? How do we make this better? And we looked at trying to do that. And is it something? Dei is never something that can be changed overnight. It's something that, even though I have stepped down on organization and I am now the chairman of the board, I'm even from a board level. I'm constantly talking to our board members and to our executive team that this has to be always at the front of our mind to make sure that we're holding ourselves accountable. We can't just be this American company doing this abroad. We really have to make sure we're a local company supporting our talent around the world.

Speaker 1: 17:03

Absolutely. I love that term global. I'm totally going to use that. I'll give you credit. I'll give you a trademark for it, though, Is it? Trademark or patented or anything. Do I have to worry about it?

Speaker 2: 17:15

I can't compare what's inside those all.

Speaker 1: 17:18

I think you know what a fascinating story and I think I would just say like very similar experience from my standpoint, where it's almost like the DEI. If you use DEI from a lens of somebody operating in the United States, it's just confusing to people because even down to the fact that if you try to categorize DEI metrics by the demographics that the EEOC uses in the US, people are like what does this even mean? I don't understand this. It's just not as common, but similar experience specifically in other international jurisdictions. Where DEI is, it needs to be diversity at the local level. It can't be what we define it as, because if you look at my headcount, we are super diverse, super diverse If you look at each one of our individual locations, very homogenous as it relates to each individual location. So that's where the opportunity is. I couldn't agree more.

Speaker 2: 18:24

When you think about it, kyle. How do you just make sure that you understand that this is important? They get to hear from the top and how they think about it holistically. Statistics show that people hire who they know and people know people who look like them. It's just an extra step. Diversity, in my opinion, goes all circles. I need to make sure what I'm hiring. I'm not just hiring people that are of color. I need to show them we're gaining diversity and inclusion into the business. Vice versa, for someone like yourself, it's really important that we just talk about it's not about picking somebody. When people say DEI just means you hire someone of color, that's not what it means. You hire the best talent, but you get opportunity to all talent.

Speaker 1: 19:10

Right. Well, and then I think and I'm assuming you'd agree with this where it really matters is where you make it an environment where people feel like they belong, regardless of their demographic background. That's where HR needs to be spending most of their time. Yes, diversify the talent acquisition funnel if you will and give everybody an opportunity, but it's got to be a great place to work for everybody. Yes, in my mind, that's where you win.

Speaker 2: 19:40

I think we have to. I have number one goal, which is people have to be comfortable in their own skin. That's our job as HR professionals that people have to be comfortable and they know they're in an environment where they can grow, but in their own skin. And that can be anything. We talk about diversity, about inclusion. We've hired transgender people in my organization. We've hired people. Obviously, gender equality is really important for us. We're really big on, obviously, language and social economics. Those are things that people can bring to the organization. That diversity of thought, that diversity of experience. Statistics show that that is where businesses are successful, because they're looking at every idea, not just one idea.

Speaker 1: 20:32

Absolutely. I want to hit on a point that I think we kind of glossed over there, that I think is important, and I want to call it out for our audience, and that's the fact that somebody in your organization felt comfortable enough telling you that, and I think that's another kind of key point. I totally agree. It's all about listening and having those open conversations. It's also on our shoulders, as human resources and as leaders in general, to open the door, to truly allow people to feel comfortable saying, hey, your definition of diversity is not correct. Saying that to the CEO. My guess is that this person was probably a very confident individual to begin with, but they also had the confidence in you that you're not going to take this as a negative. And now, oh, this person's a problem and let's go figure out how we don't have a problem anymore.

Speaker 2: 21:35

I think it's important because she's actually pretty new. When she started I love that I said to everyone I want you to ask questions. I don't think she's comfortable in that way. It's really important that this is not the organization that you ask a question in your job the next day. That's not the culture we want to create, and the fact that she brought it up and not only did she bring it up, that we took action on it was actually really important to her and it showed throughout the organization. I use this example quite often because it's so important one, so that visibility that we do care, we do listen. But the second part is that we hear you. You are involved in this organization, you are important, your voice is important. My granola, you said to me once, kyle, a closed mouth number gets fed, so you have to be able to make sure people have the ability to be hungry and to get fed.

Speaker 1: 22:32

Absolutely, absolutely.

Speaker 1: 22:36

I love that and you know, I think it's one of those things where, if that's happening, you've already won half the battle right, like you're allowing people to open their mouth.

Speaker 1: 22:53

And I'm curious to ask you this question because you've been in both seats you've been in the HRC, you've been in the founder CEO seat.

Speaker 1: 23:07

We talk a lot about how does HR open their mouth and how do we speak truth to power and how do we get a seat at the table. And it seems to be to this point, to the point, where it's like the next HR person that says I want to quote seat at the table, I'm just going to, like, I'm just going to, you know, like it's like word of the day buzzword, unless you know, let's change the topic, but, but, but there's, there's truth there that there's a challenge right, and a lot of times HR is in kind of this awkward position where maybe they're, maybe they're struggling to, to, to share a message that may not be received well, or they're just struggling to even get access to the room so that they can can share an appropriate message. So, as you think about that challenge, given your background and the fact that you've been in both seats, what advice would you give for an HR practitioner that's trying to work their way into that through strategic role that human resources can play?

Speaker 2: 24:01

Yeah. So I'll give us a story behind that. First, that you know, when I was in HR, the CEO used to make decisions and I would go God, what is he doing, like this is going to destroy the culture of the business. This is a really bad decision. I disagree with it. Et cetera, et cetera. As the CEO I said oh, I get it, I understand it. I understand why those types of decisions had to be made.

Speaker 2: 24:28

It's important that HR does two things. One, create a value of why you need to sit at the table. Hr does not need to just be the personal department. Hr does not need to be the paper pushers. Hr needs to show the value of what people do and the return on investment, of doing any investment into our people, and how that triggers success for the business.

Speaker 2: 24:54

When you're thinking about if it's new initiatives, just new technology, if it's new type of benefits, what data are you using to then go back to the CEO or executive team or the board of directors to say this is the investment we need to do. Here's your return on that investment, regardless of what you're talking about, because if you're just going, oh, people want more benefits or people want more time off, what is the return on investment? Why would we do that? We forget HR. We care about people and we care about the company to make sure they're fully compliant.

Speaker 2: 25:30

Business owners, ceos, board directors care about the dollars. What's your return on investment on anything that we do, any action? As you think about how we're going to communicate or bring that to the table, think about those terms and always ask yourself those questions and make sure that's in your presentation or your talking points and bring it to executives. The next thing that she needs to focus on is how do you show that you are there for the organization and that you've got its best interest at heart. Being at the table is important, but sometimes we've seen many HR professionals where they comment in its company session because HR is.

Speaker 2: 26:15

We all know we are the Dr Phil's several times of organizations. While, jokes aside, that wanes all of us. We talk about mental health and we talk about that. The way that we present is also sometimes how we're presented to. We've got to change that kind of talking point and we've got to come to the table with the right talking points. We have to be able to present and execute from that direction Making sure that you show your value, making sure that you talk about the benefits of the business and that this is not just because this is how I feel. This is what we need to do to be successful as an organization. That's probably the best advice I would give, because HR is such an important, vital component of the business. But sometimes we deliver messages. I'm saying because I've done this multiple times too we deliver messages that are tied to feelings, not necessarily types of business.

Speaker 1: 27:19

Absolutely. Yeah, it's the you know. It's that the challenge of taking those feelings and putting them as something that's actually consumable for the audience. A lot of times, right, and I think many of us probably have. I think many of us are in HR because we have a little bit of a you know, a little bit of intuition around feelings or sentiment, or good listeners or people naturally come to us with problems that need solved and things like that, and that's that might be like a kind of our superpower.

Speaker 1: 27:53

That doesn't necessarily mean that we're great, standing in a boardroom and taking all of this, this information that we've taken in and conveying it in a way that makes sense. And so I think that's really really well articulated and I think so like you know where you started it's so much of it comes down to like creating that value, like being valuable in the room at the table, right it's. You know, if you do that time and time again, you won't have to ask for a seat. They'll ask you to be there, right? So it's not about getting the seat, it's about earning the seat. And then my argument would be like where you know you've made it is when everybody's in the room without you and somebody raises their hand and says, hey, where's HR at right now? They need to be in here, right? That's like that's the biggest win in my world that I think you can get, which is you're being asked to join meetings you weren't supposed to be in.

Speaker 2: 28:51

But the thing is, it's okay to be disruptive and challenging if there's a end goal behind it. It's okay to have a safe space. You know, I think as leaders, we have to also say we can't tell employees that they can be safe and have this ability to communicate, but we don't do that in our own meetings, right? We have to also make sure we can do that. So it's okay to be challenging, but make sure that when you're challenging, it's types of business, what's the fundamental foundation of what we're?

Speaker 1: 29:22

trying to accomplish here. Yeah, yeah, and I think you know most of the listeners here. You know we don't necessarily mind being disruptive, but to that point, like there needs to be a purpose, right. I would also say, like you know, my entire approach in human resources is to be like to be a positive disruptor. Right, like the intention is good. Right, the intention is to rebel against something that's not working for the betterment of the organization and the employees in it, not necessarily just to come in there and throw up a bunch of smoke and say so-and-so is an awful leader because so-and-so told me so.

Speaker 2: 30:04

Right, that's not gonna get you there.

Speaker 1: 30:08

That's gonna get you on a different list. Don't do that. That's a different table.

Speaker 2: 30:12

I'll give you an example of that. So there's, I had this with a colleague of mine a long time ago where they said, hey, we're talking about communication, like we need to improve our communication work with a global organization. We need to figure this out. And we were like, well, we're gonna have different talent halls and we're gonna just do it in different time zones. And I was like, oh, why do we wanna do that? I understand the times of you know, if we're gonna have a company talent hall, one team is gonna have to sacrifice at one point, but we have to do it equally. None of the same team has to sacrifice at the same time. Right, right, right right. If we do do that, we can make sure we have a unified message and do that. And so they're like no, let's, let's do separate ones, let's try it out.

Speaker 2: 30:58

So we did, we tried it out, and what ended up happening was, when we did a late call with Asia, for example, our motivation was down. We were all tired, it's 11 o'clock at night, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, and so it will be experienced. The employee experience was very different from that perspective when we went back and challenged like, look, we tried it that way. We're gonna challenge it. We need to do it this way. The feedback from the staff was yes, it was a little bit later for me, but it was a really good call and I got to hear what my colleagues were thinking and, seeing it, their passion parted all together. Challenging doesn't necessarily mean a bad thing. Challenging like, hey, this is how I always done it, this is how we should do it, it's a good thing. It's always it's good to kind of innovate Best HL practices. And does it mean because you've done it for?

Speaker 2: 31:53

10 years it's the right way to do it. On your 11th year.

Speaker 1: 31:57

Oh my gosh, that example. It's just. It's literally had the exact same and and Um. I do think you know something as simple it sounds simple like figuring out what time zone to conduct all employee meetings in Can can turn into a really Great or really not so great employee experience if, if you don't give it enough intentional thought around it, right? So it's some of those things that I think. This is where, again, this is where HR can step in. We can add value. We can ask those questions before we get negative feedback from our team, right, because this is typically where we are our thinking and listening and feeling, but we can help an organization With that being said, it's just been a wonderful conversation. I have a feeling we could just keep going for hours, but you're a busy guy and I want to be respectful of your time, so we're going to shift gears. We're going to go into the rebel HR flash round. Are you ready? All right? Question number one when does HR need to rebel?

Speaker 2: 32:56

I think you have to think about where what's done is called. The world has changed, hr has to change. So when you think about how you do things, how you've done things, how you want to do things, think about what's new. Why do we change? How to be elevated, how do we build it? Onboarding, off boarding, employee experiences, conference communication, all of any such age, because the world is changing, demographic changing. Think about it. Absolutely yeah absolutely.

Speaker 1: 33:25

Yeah, it's the, the old marshal goldsmith. You know what got you here won't get you there, right? Well, that's like exponentially true In in today's workforce, right? So I couldn't agree more. Question number two who should we be listening to?

Speaker 2: 33:41

every single person. We HR makes some mistakes. Sometimes Companies make a lot of mistakes as they say, we're going to talk to managers, and they typically talk to their intro level managers. They forget the people who are doing the day-to-day. We need to hear from the people who are doing the day-to-day. They're the ones that are Providing feedback for the ones doing the day-to-day work. They're the ones that can make your business better. We need to hear from them how we can improve the organization. I used to say to my staff I'm the CEO, but you treat me as well as the janitor and then in the office as well. We're equals. Just because the CEO doesn't make me better, we're all equals. We used to be here at this thing time.

Speaker 1: 34:16

Love that. Yeah, and don't get, don't fall into the echo chamber trap, right? It's really easy to talk to the same people, especially those that you have relationships with and you're connected with, and to avoid that that person that you maybe don't have as close relationship with, but the reality is they might be, they might be giving you the truth, um, and everything else might be.

Speaker 2: 34:37

Sanitized. The best innovation I've ever had kyle was from a data entry clerk that was with the company for three years. That's idea we're having.

Speaker 1: 34:48

There you go, there you go. Absolutely Love it All right. Last question so you got a lot going on. There's a ton of you do a lot of content and and you're just A clear thought leader here in the space. How can our listeners reach out, connect with you and and and learn more?

Speaker 2: 35:06

Yeah, the best way to connect me is on linkedin, um, it's, it's my number one channel for um my thought leadership, so they can reach out to me on linkedin at rick hamill. Um, feel free to reach out to me anytime. I'm happy to have questions and answer questions or start a conversation. I'm pretty open. I try to reach out to everyone that reaches out to me on linkedin. So please send me a message. I'm happy to connect.

Speaker 1: 35:28

Awesome and and kudos to you. So good for you for doing that. I um, I try, I try, but it's, it's hit or miss. Um, we will have that information, the show notes. Open up your podcast player. Uh, click on and check it out. Uh, again, rick hamill, thank you so much for for being with us. Thank you for all the work you're doing and can't wait to see what's next.

Speaker 2: 35:49

I'll thank you for having me. You too have a great day.

Speaker 1: 35:53

All right, that does it for the rebel hr podcast. Big Thank you to our guests. Follow us on facebook at rebel hr podcast, twitter at rebel hr guy, or see our website at rebel human resources dot com. If yous and opinions expressed by rebel hr podcast or those of the authors and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position Of any of the organizations that we represent. No animals were harmed during the filming of this podcast.

Speaker 2: 36:22

Maybe,