Speaker 1: 0:03

This is the Rebel HR podcast, the podcast about all things innovation in the people's space. I'm Kyle Rode. Let's start the show. Welcome back, rebel community. We're going to have a great conversation today, really looking forward to it. With us we have Dr Benjamin Ritter, or Ben as we're going to be calling him today, here. He is a talent management consultant, leadership coach and author of the upcoming book Becoming Fearless Ben. Thank you for joining us.

Speaker 2: 0:35

I am happy to be here. Crowd, crowd. Please calm down, lower your voices, stop clapping. It's okay. We have a podcast to get to.

Speaker 1: 0:44

There you go, pause, we've got a break. Okay, now we can start. Ben, thank you so much for joining us today. We're going to talk about a lot of different things, but the thing that really piqued my interest about your work is around career fulfillment, and it's an area that is certainly a little bit challenging, I think, at times, for many of us in the people leadership space, in the HR space or in the corporate space in general, and so I think the first question that I have for you is what drew drew you to to this as an area of focus of your work.

Speaker 2: 1:30

Yeah well, I had a lot of career disappointment before my career fulfillment, which tended to lead to where I'm at today. I'll take it just to a quick, short gamut. I wanted to be a professional soccer player. That failed miserably. And while I was in college the only thing that I kind of was interested in was nutrition, and then they canceled my major halfway through. And then I got a taste a marketing associate for a chiropractic organization which basically was a little bit scammy, trying to convince people to go into appointments as a corporate wellness kind of reviewer, and that was just did not go along with my values. And so what does everyone do when they're wondering what to do with their career? They go to school. So I went back and got my MBA and MPH and really was.

Speaker 2: 2:20

I got really passionate about health policy. My mom got cancer. I kind of noticed some issues with how we're managing that. You know, I had a back injury, chronic back pain, and I was like I'm going to go help the world through policy. I'm going to change policy because changing behavior is too difficult. I had a great position with the government and health policy that got cut due to budgets and then for two and a half years I had four different job offers, all cut from budgets, so contract sign on dotted line. And then that was taken away and I stumbled into healthcare. After a long time of searching and working odd jobs and working in hospitality, working for music festivals, doing focus groups I just was going out there and exploring job opportunities. I was an ultrasound model at conferences. Have you ever seen those people laying down, getting ultrasounded?

Speaker 1: 3:12

Yeah, so that's so. So do you have to audition for that?

Speaker 2: 3:17

Uh, kinda actually. Yeah, they have to see if you have clear ultrasounds.

Speaker 1: 3:21

So I did a bunch of.

Speaker 2: 3:23

I was out there just kind of tasting what the world had to offer from work and just for some reason couldn't couldn't find what I really wanted. But at the same time, when you experience a lot of disappointment I think this actually relates to HR it builds up a lot of crud. It kind of pushes you away from where you should be going because you think that where maybe you wanted to go it isn't possible and you just kind of let go of some of your values and expectations and just kind of take what you get. And so I networked into healthcare and kind of about the second year, third year, like I kind of liked what I was doing. I was in clinical quality improvement, basically helping patient outcomes. Seemed to be like a decent job but had some pretty toxic leadership and went through a lot of change in the company itself, so just a lot of extra crud.

Speaker 2: 4:06

Again was promoted to the executive team and throughout all this just kept becoming more and more resentful towards the kind of toxic environment, the leadership, the constant change, the fact that I didn't feel like I picked my career and I had a couple pretty, pretty bad moments with leadership. But then I remember one day and kind of in this victim mentality. I was walking to work, looking around, and it looked like everyone hated their jobs. It looked like everyone was just like dreading life walking into work. And it was neat because it was like someone held up a mirror to myself and I was like, oh, wow, okay, so hold on, this is a choice.

Speaker 2: 4:41

And around that same time which really, really interesting, how like serendipitous this was I was in this leadership development program, paired up with none other than the person running the program for all of our 13 hospitals, and it was the first time in my career where I had a safe place to share how I felt, to analyze my thoughts, to challenge my beliefs.

Speaker 2: 5:02

And I got knocked out of this kind of place of my job is the problem, my boss is the problem, the organization is the problem.

Speaker 2: 5:09

And instead he helped me reflect to be like, oh, I'm the problem, I can fix this. And it helped me do a career audit, do all the different things, like what I'm good at, what challenges I want to face, where do these intersect, what types of people do I want to work with, what's draining, answer all those questions, finally, and it kind of redirect like pick myself up, dust myself off, pack my bag again and start walking towards where I want to go. And that led me towards the realm of the intersection of like coaching, professional development, basically like fixing where I was fixing my leadership, being able to provide positive environments for high potential, just employees, like patient employee satisfaction. And that led me to the realm of talent development, which I didn't know existed and that was kind of the start of this career path which eventually led me to getting my doctorate, a couple jobs in the space and then launching a new business and growing it from there awesome, awesome.

Speaker 1: 6:02

You know, I'm just. I'm sitting here, we're we're not on video, but if you're watching the video I'd be like a bobblehead over here listening to Ben talk and I think similar experience in my career what the workplace demeanor felt like People walking around with dark clouds over them with cranky faces. At a certain point you do have to look yourself in the mirror and say, am I one of those people? And I laughed a little bit. So all the Swifties out there.

Speaker 1: 6:43

I immediately thought about the lyric I'm the problem, it's me which is, I think, a little bit revelatory and also really powerful, because once you acknowledge that it's you, now you have control, you can actually do something. And I think many professionals, hr included, get to a point of they just acquiesce, they're just like, okay, it is what it is, I'm just going to have to deal with this and plow through and deal with these dark clouds and feel a little bit powerless. So I'm curious, as you were working through solving this problem and building out your practice and your organization and learning what were some insights to this revelation that maybe surprised you, that we can learn from your experience.

Speaker 2: 7:54

As you were sharing about oh, it's me. I was reflecting on the biggest issues that clients tend to face when they're setting boundaries. And it's not setting the boundaries, it's accepting that they're the ones that are responsible for it. And like the words not being confident or being afraid, like if, if someone does not, if someone is stuck in a victim mentality. If you're wondering if you might be stuck in this, if, if you, if someone calls you not confident or someone calls you afraid, that and that you can improve your situation and you, if you just like shore up, you, put up your walls, then I promise you there's something to pay attention to there.

Speaker 2: 8:37

And and having that growth mindset and being able to say like I can change this is so important and, honestly, like one of the most important learnings I had was, even if I'm unhappy in my environment, I need to somehow find something to be proud of. I need to somehow do some sort of work, I need to somehow see some sort of meeting, or I need to somehow engage in some sort of connection to make myself feel like what I'm doing is valuable. Because if you're going through your day, no matter where you are, and you feel like it's a waste and you feel like there's no purpose and you feel like there's no direction. There's nothing you can do to make yourself feel better, feel more fulfilled, and I promise you, you're probably wasting opportunities in those moments too.

Speaker 1: 9:24

Absolutely. That's a really powerful insight and I struggle with this sometimes, like full disclosure, like there are times where it's almost like this learned helplessness, where you're like, oh, this really sucks, but I'm just going to have to work through it and just put up with it. But the reality is, I think so many of us have so much more agency than we give ourselves credit for right. Like just by kind of having that feeling of helplessness, you've already made a decision right, and so you know I think the listeners of the podcast are probably. I can guarantee you that there's a kind of a resounding agreement with this approach, and when I interact with the community, so often it's we are driven to change. We want to make things better.

Speaker 1: 10:23

You know, people are listening to this podcast for a reason because they see that there's a, you know, a better way to interact in the world of work, in our roles, and so I love the prompt that you said, which is you know I can change this. Oftentimes what I find is, as people are struggling with situations, they know they want to change, but they don't necessarily know how. So, as we're sensing this resistance and we feel like we're putting up those walls and we're struggling. What are some ways for us to get out of this kind of the scarcity mindset and shift into this growth mindset as it relates to these feelings in the workplace?

Speaker 2: 11:07

yeah and, by the way, people listening to this saying this won't work for me. I was in one of the most traditional, authoritarian, toxic work environments that I've experienced and I've and I've worked with over 500 leaders and I was able to ask for a month off to go on a reality show. It was approved and at the same time, when I figured out what I wanted to do for my career, I went to this VP and I said I want to get involved in this work. I'm not going to stop doing my job. I want to go do some of this work with this team. She said, okay, and you can be surprised sometimes when you manage up a little bit, so keep that in mind, okay. So going back to like, how do you do this? I think one of the other learnings that I've had through my own path, and other people's as well, is that you're a lot closer than you think. Like when I, when I figured out what I wanted to do for my career, like it was like oh, why didn't I know that? Like when I think about like, talent development and coaching my first, I actually started a coaching practice before this in a different space. I serendipitously got stopped when I was in a bar by a guy saying I got to meet my boss. You have like I can see what you're doing, you have good social skills. I met his boss. He hired me to run kind of a men's coaching program. For a year I wrote a book, I built a business. Coaching was a big part of my life. It wasn't where I wanted to go for my career then, but it was a big part of who I was, how I got to where I was and experiences I was having. I also, when I was networking for a job, I applied for and received a grant from the federal government for six months of free life coaching for public health professionals. And then, as I was working at the hospital, unfulfilled, I was selected for 16 months of leadership training and my mentor was the person that changed the world for me. So I stop and you go like, oh Okay, so training leaders, talent development, that makes sense, like it intersects.

Speaker 2: 13:07

There's a lot of things there and every time I work with an individual on career clarity, oftentimes it's in a similar industry, maybe just doing the work a little bit different with a different impact and outcome that they're trying to achieve. So we tend to be a little bit. We tend to be a lot closer than we think, and so when you sit back and ask yourself, like, what would make me happy I've already mentioned these pillars you take a look at the actual work that you're doing. You've probably done some really fulfilling work or work where you were happy in the past, and there's different. There's there's things, there's tasks that you enjoy doing, too, getting a little bit more granular, so there's things that really drain you, like certain meetings, certain people you know. For me, for me personally, like there's just some aspect of, of data analysis that I don't want to be a part of my job, or and that's okay Like, so you figure out how to work around that you decrease the things that drain you. So, all of a sudden now, no matter where you're at, you're crafting the actual work that you're doing start, stop, continue, et cetera, adapt. And then a huge part of it, too, is who you work with.

Speaker 2: 14:10

When I was working in healthcare, there was a very toxic individual that ended up getting let go, and that person you know during that time that they were around. It's very difficult for me to feel proud or happy at work, and there are certain people, though that I knew that if I spent time with I was energized, I was excited, I felt like I was going somewhere and growing and those are the people you want to spend more of your time with. And then and then the meeting part, which is this also just your perception? So when I was promoted to the executive kind of position in my in in the hospital I got, I started working on, like, business development. I was an interim financial manager for a little bit. I was doing corporate report outs. I sit in the room with the CEO changing sentences on slides.

Speaker 2: 14:51

It was not very motivating for me, but when I was able to stop and actually take a look at the impact of the work that I was having in the broader healthcare landscape on patients, I was able to get that glimmer of hope, that little spark that I could kind of build from. And if we don't do these types of things where we're at now, then we're missing out on really good information to help us figure out where we want to go, but we're also not going to have enough energy to do the actions that we need to take to build a career path toward in the direction of the things that maybe we want to do, and so maybe that's moving horizontally, maybe that's moving into a different position, maybe it's at a different company, and it does seem kind of simple. But these are things that we tend to overlook and think that we don't have autonomy over yeah, yeah, yeah I.

Speaker 1: 15:41

You know I'm kind of laughing again.

Speaker 1: 15:48

We must be kindred spirits, because I'm sitting here nodding my head as you're talking about data analytics.

Speaker 1: 15:53

I love the insights that are derived from the big data question, but if you want me to do anything with a macro, or if you look up in an Excel spreadsheet, you might as well just ask me to start to speak Mandarin, because it's just not in my skill set, nor am I good at it, right.

Speaker 1: 16:11

So I think that's the other thing too. And maybe, to extrapolate this conversation beyond just the personal, as we think about our workplaces and we think about the team dynamics that occur and the leaders that we help support or the employees that we lead, the reality is so many people are facing this exact same issue, where they've got these aspects of their job that just make them miserable, and they're probably not very good at it either. And there's an opportunity for us to create the opportunity for people to have that safe space that you mentioned a little while ago, ben, so that they can realize their actual potential and feel more fulfilled at work. And so for those leaders out there that are, you know, maybe feeling this a little bit personally, but also maybe sensing this on their teams. This a little bit personally, but also maybe sensing this on their teams. What are some of those things that we can do to really make this workplace a safe environment for people to feel comfortable?

Speaker 2: 17:12

exploring some of these questions Well, the first thing you need to do is feel safe yourself, and so whatever that means from I don't know if it's saving a little bit of extra money every month so you have a little bit of a cushion, If it's starting a kind of consulting or contract position or getting a second job to work every now and then, maybe once a week or a couple of times a month. Safety does tend to come from feeling like if you lost this job, you'd be okay.

Speaker 2: 17:39

It might also just be going to get your resume done or your LinkedIn profile ready, or going networking and building opportunities with people to be like. I might be thinking about something else, because I mean no matter what like. If you believe in yourself and your capability of getting another job, you're more likely to hold true to your values than the place that you're at. We tend to overlook that, and I can't tell you how many people do not set boundaries because they're afraid of losing their position. Sure, so let's say you feel safe, you're in an environment, you're with the team, you're with your boss. It's about having these types of conversations around what work do you enjoy? You can even ask your boss what do you think is the aspect of your work that you're really great at and what work do you? That kind of drains you that you don't like that much? And start the conversation around well, what purpose does this work have? Like, what impact is it having within the work environment? Are people even using this report anymore? Or, if you have a team of peers, sit down and start comparing notes what do you enjoy? What do I enjoy? What drains you, what doesn't drain you? And you'll find out that generally, people find different types of work, energizing or de-energizing, and then you can even start delegating. In that way, you might even be able to say, well, none of us like this thing, well, why are we doing it? And be like, well, what else do we want to work on? And it can become a team activity, it can be a conversation with your boss, but oftentimes we just I can tell you I started, I remember I started at a job and we had like these three reports we had to do.

Speaker 2: 19:04

We had like through, like we had like two. We had to do like one weekly, there was like a monthly report and then there was a couple of quarterly. So there's there's more than just three. And I started asking people around like, hey, do you open this? Hey, hey, do you, do you read this? What do you use this for? And I say like 50 of the reports nobody used, they just were doing because the people thought we had to do them. And you can. When we start questioning our work a little bit more, questioning even a meeting where it's getting scheduled, a lot of opportunity shows up. So the first step, the first step, other than being safe, is to start actually having a conversation around the work that you're doing Absolutely.

Speaker 1: 19:40

And I think you know Absolutely and I think you know what's really interesting about most of our like workplace development programs or talent programs is we don't talk about the elephant in the room which you mentioned at the beginning of that, that point which is, you know, if you lose this job, you, you believe that you'll be okay, and and and and it's it's. It is kind of one of those areas that I think it's interesting, because there's there's a lot of professionals that are like we don't want to talk about that, right, like we can't talk about, like, as far as anybody's concerned, this we are the center of the universe and the only opportunity that we have is within our organization, and that's a very logical reaction, right, like we don't. We don't want to like push people to go work for other companies, we don't want to push people to leave this career because we, we do have things that are, you know, necessary for them to do here, but the reality is that unless you have people that are truly fulfilled at work, it's going to be kind of miserable, right, and so in some way, shape or form, we need to be comfortable addressing that, you know, kind of openly. But that doesn't necessarily come naturally and it's certainly not a component of anybody's talent development program. Right Like?

Speaker 1: 21:41

I don't have a program that says, you know, here's the universe of jobs available to you, truly, and here's the skill sets and here's the jobs you'd be matched for, right Like it's like here's the jobs I have at my company and here's where you might fit, and it's like two jobs, right Like two jobs in this pyramid, and there's some structure there that I think people feel boxed in, right, so I think I think expanding that mindset is is pretty important. So what? What have you found to work for, you know for, for leaders or or people that are maybe, maybe feel like they are boxed in, you know, and they don't have this like, they don't have this belief that they'll be okay if they lose their job. They just feel like stuck and I can't go anywhere else. How do you pick yourself out of that mindset?

Speaker 2: 22:35

You mentioned confidence earlier. Confidence is such a key aspect of job satisfaction. Oftentimes we don't feel. If we don't feel that we're good at our job, or we don't feel we're getting recognized for the work that we're doing, we end up feeling stuck or frustrated, and that's kind of where those feelings come up again, and so part of confidence is also like understanding how good should you be at your job right now, like what is, what is this? You just started a job Probably not going to be that good, like in a job for six years, probably pretty confident.

Speaker 2: 23:06

If you're not confident, then what happened? Did they roll something out new? Okay, do we have to change our expectations? Do we need to ask for feedback, like very specific feedback from our boss, to build that confidence? So confidence is actually how we believe in ourselves. So that's just a choice. And then our actual skills, and so the mindset piece, which is how confident do I need to be right now, is important. Set expectations Should always be your biggest champion, though. The other piece, though, is skills.

Speaker 2: 23:32

So if you don't feel safe at your job, why don't you feel safe at your job? Maybe or I should rephrase that to your question why don't you feel like you can get another job, and so do you. Don't believe in your skills? Do we need to go learn something? Do we need to go take a class? Do you not believe in your network? Do you need to go start building relationships and attending organizations and looking at your local community or attending virtual events? Are you too siloed in your department?

Speaker 2: 24:00

I've gone through at almost every company I've ever worked at. There's been at least one acquisition. I better know more people at that company if I plan on still having a job. So are you feeling stuck because you're siloed in your function and haven't actually put the energy in to go building relationships? And so often people feel like if I do my job, keep my head down, do that work, I can't change it, but I'm just going to do it, I'll be safe, I'll be fine, and no, actually that's not the case. People don't choose to keep people in an organization because of good work. They tend to choose to keep them because they know them. They know them, they like them, they have a relationship with them, they feel like they owe them something. So if you're feeling stuck, I would start in those areas first.

Speaker 1: 24:42

I would start in those areas first, absolutely yeah, and I think certainly. You know I'm reflecting on a personal level in my career, you know, I think it's easy to over-index. Like you know well, my job's people intensive. So I have these relationships with people, but just because you interact with people doesn't necessarily mean that you have a depth of relationship that actually is really meaningful. Right, it wasn't until I realized that there needs to be a level of comfort and authenticity and trust within each one of these relationships in order for it to really mean something outside of a business transaction. You know, then you really don't have a relationship.

Speaker 1: 25:29

You know, one of my mentors told me a story that was pretty meaningful a while ago and he was telling a story about a leader who did not know that somebody on their team was going through cancer treatments, that somebody on their team was going through cancer treatments and this leader was talking to them and was just kind of surprised that they didn't know that their employee was going through this. Everybody else knew, but not the leader. And my mentor told the leader well then, you're not really that person's leader, right, like if you don't know that this like dramatic life event is happening to somebody that you're supposed to be, you know, leading and have a you know some level of of of relationship with, then you need to question your leadership Right, and that might be a little bit harsh, but but I think there's a lot of reality to that Right there's there's some truth there.

Speaker 2: 26:25

That a lot of reality to that right. There's some truth there that's really powerful. I have to generally convince leaders about the importance of one-on-one conversations. We talk all the time. I know what they're doing, they're good, they want autonomy. The 101 is not for you to help them do their job generally Maybe for some roadblocks it's for you to connect with that individual in a way that's not just about work leadership, like being proactive in your career as an employee.

Speaker 2: 26:57

You have to go demand that, you have to go create that opportunity to connect and then you need to share first if your leader doesn't feel that it's important. You know, sadly we're in a little bit. We're kind of in this this evolution from traditional leadership and I see this also in HR, traditional HR like this people function mentality or traditional leadership to more of like a human centric approach. And so sometimes I say, if you have, if you know that you want a different relationship with your leader, how are you nudging it in that direction? So how are you sharing something in a one-on-one? How are you scheduling 30 minutes with them during the week? Or if they cancel your meeting, are you asking for it to be rescheduled?

Speaker 2: 27:35

And too often, as an employee, we just kind of stick our heads in the sand and think our leader is busy. And I see this more so with individuals, with employees that respect their leaders, that really like highly, think that their leaders are amazing and incredible individuals. They don't want to bother them, they don't want to mess that up. They respect them too much Like no, you need to ask. You ask for things. You need to go put yourself out there and just slightly nudge, get on their calendar, have 30 minutes, share something personal, share something, make that connection, ask them a question, ask them how do you get here? How do you get to this job? You know what do you do when you're not working. What was the last book you read?

Speaker 1: 28:17

And start building a little bit closer of a relationship with them too. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it really it, it really matters, um, it really does. So, let's, I want to spend maybe, maybe just a minute on the the aspect of. You know, you mentioned self-leadership, right, and I think this is an area where and you've mentioned this a couple of times you know, you, you can't really lead others until you can can lead yourself, right, and so, um, I'm curious as, as we reflect on that and kind of close with this, this aspect of self leadership, what are some? What are some areas that we need to be thoughtful of as as HR professionals and people leaders, as it relates to how we lead ourself versus how we lead others? What are some kind of, some key themes that you would recommend that we do for success?

Speaker 2: 29:04

If we're leading ourselves, that's personal. We can't lead others. We can create an environment that helps people lead themselves and sadly, let's be fair, Some people have different opinions on on what is productive and acceptable behavior in the workforce. So part is being an hr professional at times is also just making sure those expectations are clear, making sure that you're taking a human approach to ensuring understanding and strategizing towards them being successful. But then sometimes people have to go Like that's just. I know we're talking about a lot of really great things, but that's part of the job. But how we do that, how we get people there, is really important. So for ourselves, we've already been talking about confidence, but we talked a little bit about clarity. We talked a little bit about control.

Speaker 2: 29:52

Self-leadership is about knowing where you're going, knowing why you're going there and knowing some of the smaller steps to get there. The smallest step usually possible is the most important because that leads to momentum. You have to feel confident that you can actually take action. So you got to believe in yourself and you have to have the skills to get there and you have to build in an environment where you're going to be successful. Where you're going to be successful, you can control.

Speaker 2: 30:16

So, as a HR professional, if your goal is to build stronger relationships with the people in your organization and the only time they see you is when you're going out there for disciplinary actions or to tell them what they need to do next around the performance management process, around trainings, then you probably don't have the right environment to be successful. So maybe your desk has to be moved. Maybe you need to spend more time in front of individuals, Maybe you need to schedule more remote touch points if you're remote and so you're not just seeing trainings and disciplinary actions again. So how we lead ourselves is about how we believe in ourselves, the goals we set, the motivations behind them and the environment we create around ourselves to be successful. And then we got to take that process once. We do it for ourselves and figure out ways to do it for the people around us.

Speaker 1: 31:08

Absolutely, and I love you know. I think you know, I think you know. There's a couple, couple of key takeaways here Um, you know, got to take care of yourself first, right, Got to lead yourself first, um, and then, ultimately, you have to be you know, you have to be aware enough that we create an environment where others can do the same. And I think, I think that's where you know, that's where your, your work rests Right, and that's that's where the benefit of right, and that's where the benefit of your research and your book and the work that you do comes into play, right. So, with that, we're going to shift gears, we're coming to the end of our time together and we're going to go through the Rebel HR flash round. Are you ready?

Speaker 2: 31:52

I am ready. Just reiterate a little bit more tangible example. If someone's's not meeting expectations, you go to them and you say, hey, this is what we have to do. I want to help you get there. What do you think is possible? That's like the approach, like do you know why this isn't? Why is this important to you? What's one small step you maybe can take? What about the environment makes us helpful or not helpful? You know, by the way, I believe, that you can do this to you, like what skills might you need? Environment makes us helpful or not helpful. You know, by the way, I believe, that you can do this. Do you like? What skills might you need? What support might you need? So that's how we might turn it towards an individual.

Speaker 1: 32:21

But okay, Flash round, let's do it All right. Question number one where do we need to rebel?

Speaker 2: 32:27

We need to stop reacting to what people ask of us and instead respond like, really like, really respond with well, what do I need in this situation? An example of that is I had a manager schedule a meeting. I was talking with a client around. This manager scheduled a meeting for nine o'clock, at like 8.15 in the morning. That person, that person, was not prepared for that meeting. That's early for that individual. You know what? Don't respond, don't show up. Respond afterwards and say you didn't see her, that you, that doesn't work for you. Like, we need to take more control about how we want to work so that we are enjoying work.

Speaker 1: 33:08

Yeah, and I think for the people pleasers in our, our profession. You know that's a boundary right, but but it can be uncomfortable for some of us. But yeah, really, really great example. Question number two who should we be listening to?

Speaker 2: 33:27

Ourselves first, but we need to actually feel our feelings, think our thoughts. So that means what are you feeling? What are you thinking about that feeling? Then you know what happens. We have a belief around that. So you might believe you don't come to this meeting, you're fired. Oh, hold on. Challenge that belief. Okay. Why do I feel that way? What's going on?

Speaker 1: 33:45

so we should be listening to ourselves, but we should also be questioning ourselves absolutely yeah, and you know, the reality is, like you know, I, I think is. I think this is an interesting kind of thought exercise. A lot of times we talk about our intuition, but the truth is it might not be intuition, it might just be muscle memory, might just be muscle memory, right, you know. So it's like, like you might, you might think that an action that seems natural to you is the right action, but the reality is, if you're, if you're struggling with fulfillment, or you feel like you're like not, you know, not achieving your full potential, your, your intuition, may be masked as just more of the same that's going to continue to give you the exact same outcome that you've got today, right? So questioning yourself and actually being honest with what you're thinking and feeling is critically critical.

Speaker 2: 34:40

Yeah, I was working with a client the other day and they said why isn't this person being logical? And I go because it's your logic.

Speaker 1: 34:51

You know mind blown right. Wait a minute. No, I work with a lot of engineers, believe me. I've had that conversation a few times. All right, last question here. So you got a ton of great content out there. You're a top voice on LinkedIn. How can our listeners connect with you and where can they get their hands on more of this information?

Speaker 2: 35:10

Yeah, well, first off, go to liveforyourselfconsultingcom. Slash becomingfearless to sign up for the book launch information At liveforyourselfconsultingcom. There's a bunch of information out there, too, just about me. Then you mentioned LinkedIn, so check out LinkedIn, Dr Benjamin Ritter.

Speaker 1: 35:29

Absolutely, and we'll have that information in the show notes. Open up your podcast player. Click on in. Ben, thank you for spending just the last few minutes of your time with us here. Just really great conversation. Some things for, I think, all of us to reflect upon and think about, and I'm looking forward to getting my hands on that book. Thanks.

Speaker 2: 35:45

Thanks for having me, Kyle.

Speaker 1: 35:47

All right, that does it for the Rebel HR podcast. Big thank you to our guests. Follow us on Facebook at RebelHR Podcast, twitter at RebelHRGuy, or see our website at RebelHumanResourcescom. The views and opinions expressed by RebelHR Podcast are those of the authors and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of any of the organizations that we represent. No animals were harmed during the filming of this podcast. Baby.