Speaker 1: 0:00

You are stacking all those positive priming moments. Now, on the flip side, what people are doing usually in a workday is first they look at the news, which actually makes you 20% to 30% less productive, and then, when they say they have a bad day, I challenge whether they had a bad day, because what you had is you had a bad moment.

Speaker 2: 0:20

This is the Rebel HR Podcast. If you're a professional looking for innovative, thought-provoking information in the world of human resources, this is the right podcast for you. Alright, Rebel Human Resources listener. I am extremely pumped up for today's show. We've got a great guest with some fascinating innovations that I think you should listen to. So I'd like to introduce you all to Jeff Harry. Jeff shows individuals and companies how to tap into their true selves to feel their happiest and most fulfilled, all by playing. He's got a bunch of awesome results behind his name Top 100 HR influencers by Engagedly Top HR influencers to watch by Bamboo HR. I don't have enough time to read them all, so I am going to let Jeff talk about some of that. Welcome to the show, Jeff.

Speaker 1: 1:22

Hey, thanks so much for having me.

Speaker 2: 1:23

I'm super amped talk about some of that. So welcome to the show, jeff. Hey, thanks so much for having me. I'm super amped, me too. Me too. I think this is perfect. It's been an interesting year, 2020, and it'll be nice to focus on some fun. Yeah, with us today is Molly, our esteemed co-host, and she will be asking some questions as well, so let's get started All right. All right, jeff, so I will let you give our listeners a little bit of your background. Why don't you tell us about yourself?

Speaker 1: 1:56

Sure, so I'll tell you my like Batman origin story. So do you remember the movie Big with Tom Hanks? You ever see that movie?

Speaker 2: 2:04

Yeah, I love that movie. You put the thing in the game and then he grew up.

Speaker 1: 2:09

Right. He grew up. So I saw that movie in third grade and Tom Hanks literally dances up on a piano and then they offer him a job to work in the toy industry. And as soon as I saw that I was like dude, that is exactly what I'm going to do with my life. So I started writing toy companies in third grade and I just did not stop, and they most of the time I just get rejection letters back because I think they thought I was older than I actually was. And a company just wrote me back one time and was like you should go into mechanical engineering, and I really should not have listened to them. But that's what I did. So I did that, graduated and then got in the toy industry. And I don't know if you've ever gotten what you've always wanted and then been so disappointed when you get there. But that's what was happening.

Speaker 1: 3:00

I was in a cubicle. The walls were padded, which you're like why are these walls padded? You know you know no fun, no play, no adults that are high-fiving, you know no toys, no kids. And I was like what am I doing here? And I remember having my little quarter-life crisis moving from New York to the Bay Area, san Francisco Bay Area, and then you know, piddling around for a little bit and then bumping into an organization that was teaching kids engineering with Lego and they basically were just playing for a living, paying 150 bucks a week like a joke of a job. But they were playing and I was like I want to get paid to play. So I stuck with them and we grew it into like the largest Lego inspired STEM organization, like in the US.

Speaker 1: 3:46

But the way we did it was we just played, like we had no idea what we were doing. We made it up as we went along. We pick cities because we thought they were fun. We had no business plan, you know. We hired people because they were fun. We experimented, we failed miserably all the time. But we got so big in the Bay area At one point we were teaching 100,000 kids a year that Silicon Valley started to pay attention to us Facebook, google, adobe, netflix, all of them and they wanted us to run team building events. And we were like, yeah, of course we run team building events. Even though we didn't, we just said yes to everything, right.

Speaker 2: 4:23

It's like, of course we do.

Speaker 1: 4:25

Yes, we've been doing that for years. And then for the next, like eight, nine years I ran team building events for, like some of the top tech companies like in the world. But you know at the same time that they talked about innovation, disruption, agile, all those buzzwords, right. They had not created a safe, psychologically you know, comfortable work environment for people to play and take risks, and the reason why is they weren't having the harder conversations, like how to deal with toxicity at work, how to address racism at work, how to deal with office politics, how to have a hard conversation, how to get your staff and flow like all of that, how to deal with office politics, how to have a hard conversation, how to get your staff and flow like all of that. How to deal with your inner critic. So I created Rediscover your Play as a way of combining positive psychology and play to tackle some of a company's biggest, most challenging issues.

Speaker 2: 5:19

So you got exactly what you wanted, and you hated every minute of it.

Speaker 1: 5:24

Is that fair yeah?

Speaker 2: 5:27

So I'm just recalling the movie. So basically, the people who were classified as the bad guys were like, just like what it's actually like to work in corporate America, right?

Speaker 1: 5:37

exactly Right, because, like you never know right, like you always dream it's going to be amazing, right, like you, you always drink it's going to be amazing. And then you get to corporate America and you were like, where did all the? Why is everyone's energy just being sucked out of them, like your soul is being sucked out of you? I remember once I left a job in a dramatic way. There was this Kaiser Permanente, like hospital job. You know. I was like just doing admin work or something there. I quit right on the spot.

Speaker 1: 6:06

And I remember, as I was leaving, I looked at a bunch of my former colleagues, former right, um, and they were like what are you doing? Where are you going? Why are you leaving? And I was like we just spoke last week about how you've been wanting to leave for five years. I'm just taking your advice and doing it instead of like dying a slow death here, you know. But they were like no, stay with us, stay in the suffering. And I'm like nah, dude, I'm good, I am good. And I think that was the last cubicle job yeah, I ever had.

Speaker 3: 6:38

Good for you for taking that leap. Most people don't I know it's so sad.

Speaker 2: 6:46

It really is, really is I just remember, you know, if we're talking movies here, the the one that resonates the most with me is office space oh, yes, but it's it's like I love that movie.

Speaker 1: 6:58

I still love that movie I still watch clips every week once in a while. I'll just watch clips of of him when he, like uh, talks to the two hr guys that are letting everyone go and he's, like I do basically like 17 minutes of work a week middle management potential yes I'm not great at movie quotes or anything, but the movie that's sticking out to the time of year is office christmas party oh yeah, you're the crazy hr lady molly, for sure

Speaker 1: 7:29

see, I need to watch that I haven't seen that when you're in hr, it's great that's a that you know that.

Speaker 2: 7:37

I think that is probably the most um accurate depiction of an hr professional that I've seen on screen. Um, If you haven't seen it, if you're in HR it's required viewing Okay.

Speaker 1: 7:48

Don't watch it with your kids. Let's just say, okay, I need to watch it.

Speaker 2: 7:52

Molly, you describe it.

Speaker 3: 7:53

Don't watch it with your kids.

Speaker 1: 7:55

No, I heard it's quite raunchy. Very much so, but it's fun, which is great because this year, like people are doing it virtual, so we're not going to have as many of those issues.

Speaker 3: 8:07

As long as everybody wears pants.

Speaker 1: 8:12

That's asking a lot. That's asking a lot.

Speaker 3: 8:15

Okay, jeff, so you had said you started doing team building events.

Speaker 1: 8:19

Yeah.

Speaker 3: 8:20

I know there's a lot of organizations that of course, they want to do a team building event. They're always looking for things, but I also feel like a lot of organizations get it wrong. Where and why do people get it wrong and what is your advice? What's your best team builder?

Speaker 1: 8:35

Yeah. So I actually stopped doing like the stuff I now do. You know, I actually stopped doing team building events because I felt like they were they're just kind of like bowling Right. They're just kind of like bowling right, like they're like, hey, you feel good for just a little bit and then you, you know, then you go back to whatever you're doing, and I think I think where people get it wrong um, companies get it wrong is they bring some team building organization in and then they are thinking like afterwards, everything's going to just change, right, you know. And and the fact fact is, if you're not taking risks and trying to have hard conversations or trying to go somewhere with it, then it's just going to be something happy, like going to play pool or ping pong, which is totally fine and people connect that way as well, but you're not really going to go deep, deep right. So I think people have to adjust their expectations of what they actually expect from a team building event.

Speaker 2: 9:30

Yeah, I actually I am not a big fan of like the let's do the one-off. Like trust falls in the office. Right, right. You know like every time I've tried to do something like that in my career, everybody has literally like they hear it and they're like ugh, yeah, why do people say that they do that because it's forced.

Speaker 1: 9:54

Fun, right. Right, the whole idea of play, if you think about it, in a playground, a kid has the option to play or not play. They have the option to do whatever they want. They could just observe from the sidelines. But with, I think, a lot of team building events, you know, and a lot of times when, like the HR staff's, like we're going to, we're going to become a team, you know, like I know, we haven't talked at all the whole year, but now, this hour, we're going to all get along. It's just like dude. Where we're going to all get along. It's just like dude. This is just come on, man.

Speaker 1: 10:30

I remember once running a team building event for a biomedical company that shall not be named and it was at a winery, and this is when I was still doing the Lego gig. And I remember, during the team building event, where they're all building something together, right, and then the boss turns to everyone. He goes get away, everyone, move back. I got this and he just moved like 20 VP executives that are like managing multimillion dollar, if not billion dollar deals, and it was just like everyone, move away. I'm going to work on this by myself. So 20 people who were at the winery just started drinking wine because they're like, well, I don't want to hang out with this guy. And then during the debrief, they were like what happened there? And he goes. Well, the reason why I had to do that was because I have a lot of experience with Lego, so that's why I had to step up and it was like, oh my gosh guys, this is it. Gosh guys, like this is it. This is the problem. I can't help you with this.

Speaker 3: 11:28

I can't, I can't like. This is deep seated, so that was part of the reason why I started.

Speaker 1: 11:30

Rediscover your Play, because I was like yo. We need to talk about toxicity at work. We need to talk about office politics, like we need to have that hard conversation because right now we're just tiptoeing around it and it sucks.

Speaker 3: 11:44

The elephant, the room, yeah, so how do you? How do you do that?

Speaker 1: 11:49

oh which which one talking about office politics or toxic people, because I can get into the toxic people how do you love me, a toxic person yeah give all the good stories you do get all the good stories.

Speaker 1: 12:03

So here I'll go through, like the you know, because we go through a bunch of different steps. So I think you know, whenever I'm talking about toxic people, we have to first put it into context. Right, like I ran this workshop it's called Dealing with A-Holes at Work Through Play, like that literally is the name of the workshop. And I did it with my friend, gary Ware, and we never thought anyone would say yes to this. Right, like why would anyone say yes to it? But we applied to some of the top conferences, like like in the country, and then, and then they were like, yes, we need this. So then we were like, oh sweet. So then we like traveled to Australia to do it and we did it right before, you know, right before quarantine, quarantine. And while we were running it in australia, like people were both laughing and crying during the workshop. But the main reason they were doing that is because a lot of them did not realize that, that they, they thought they were the only ones, they thought that they were the only ones that left a job because of a toxic person. And then we shared, like this study done by Sherm about how, like I think October 2019, they did this study where $223 billion has been lost by fortune 500 companies alone just in the last five years due to toxic people. And these are only the companies that are willing to admit it. Right, so it must be even a larger amount of money, but 223 billion, fricking dollars. So it's just like, why are we letting toxic people, just like, run amok at our companies? Right, so, you know, when we run the workshop, we're like first, it's like listen, this is all about setting boundaries and like being very clear about them. So our first suggestion this is we go from easiest to hardest, right? So easiest is that toxic person is taking up a lot of time and meetings, right, they're sucking the energy, sucking the soul out of the meeting. They're talking 60 to 80% of the meeting. So I always recommend like listen, we got to start organizing, right? So, hey, kyle, molly, the next time you're speaking up and that guy cuts you off, I'm going to be like whoa, whoa, whoa, chad. Sorry, if your name's Chad, I'm sorry, but I'm going to use you as the a-hole in this example. Hey, chad, kyle was still sharing something. Can we hear what he has to say? Wait, can we hear more from Molly, because if Molly hasn't been able to speak up yet, you know, and and we start to occupy the meeting back, and this is something you do over the next three to six months, where you are slowly taking over right and not letting this person dominate the meeting. So that's the easiest one.

Speaker 1: 14:35

The second one is actually confronting that toxic person like head on, and that's not confronting them and attacking their behavior, but you are or not attacking their behavior, but you are not attacking their character, but you are addressing their behavior and the impact that it's having. So I'd be like hey, chad, you know, when you cut off Molly, when she was in the middle of saying something, you know, not only were you communicating that you didn't want to hear from her, but you were also communicating to Kyle and myself and everyone else here that you didn't want to hear. What we had to say Is that the intent? Was that your intent? You know, because that's the impact you're having. And then just see, because a lot of toxic people are like engineers that just have bad communication skills and they might not know Right, but say, for example, they're like hey, man, f f you, I'll do whatever I want. My name's chad. Okay, all right, let's deal with it.

Speaker 1: 15:29

So then the next thing obviously is like, not just approaching their supervisor or their supervisor supervisor, if they're you know a-holes but but when you approach them, approaching it from the the context of what impact they're having, it's just like listen, I know Chad is the brilliant jerk. He brings in $700,000 a year right In revenue, or whatever that case may be. Simon Sinek talks a lot about how the brilliant jerk is never wanted on the Navy SEALs. The Navy SEALs will never take the bravest person, they'll never take the most athletic or the smartest, because if they're the brilliant jerk, they're going to destroy the team. So when you say, hey, chad has been bringing in all these revenue, but he's also caused three people to quit, which actually has cost us a million dollars, we're actually losing $300,000 by keeping Chad.

Speaker 1: 16:22

So can we address this person's behavior because he's causing this impact? And when you say it like that, then they really have a choice Like are we going to, you know, go with the values that we claim, we say we're doing, or are they going to be hypocritical at that point and and and support Chad? And if they support Chad, at that point, you know, maybe this is not the right place for you. But then the hardest way of dealing with a toxic person is you actually have to address your own inner Chad, your own inner toxic person, your own inner a-hole, like your own inner, you know, critic, right, because there's a reason why Chad triggers you.

Speaker 1: 17:05

Maybe you think you're an imposter, maybe you think you shouldn't get paid as much as him, maybe you think you shouldn't be speaking up at work, right, or at a meeting. But if you're like, wait a minute, like no way dude, like Chad's an idiot, like I definitely should be his boss, I definitely should be paid double his salary. You know, I definitely am not an imposter, I kick ass at this job. And you actually believe that the next time Chad is super rude to you, you just turn to him and you're just like Chad don't ever speak to me in that way. And then, once they do that, it's just like oh, molly just stepped up to Chad. And then Kyle's like man.

Speaker 1: 17:38

I'm going to step up to Chad. And then Jeff's like I'm stepping up to Chad too, I'm not going to tolerate this. And then, all of a sudden, everyone's stepping up to Chad and he has a choice. He either changes his behavior and gets his stuff together, his shit together, or he leaves. And that's what's happening, because you're sucking the energy out of that toxic person damn Chad.

Speaker 2: 18:01

I know, molly. I have a question for you am I Chad?

Speaker 1: 18:07

you do interrupt me quite a bit.

Speaker 2: 18:10

I do interrupt. Maybe I need to be the one to shut up.

Speaker 3: 18:14

No.

Speaker 2: 18:15

We all got a little Chad in us maybe.

Speaker 3: 18:16

We all got a little Chad in us.

Speaker 2: 18:19

Sorry to any listener named Chad.

Speaker 3: 18:22

Yeah, I'm so sorry, I actually wrestle with this a lot, like do you think Chad is toxic at the core, like most of the time? Can you change a Chad? Do they change you can?

Speaker 1: 18:35

You can change a Chad. The question is is, how long are you willing to tolerate it? Right, I had a Chad at one of my jobs. He didn't change for five years. Like like he had to be reprimanded numerous times and it was about to the point where he was going to get fired and then he, he got help, you know. Then he like started seeing a therapist and addressing stuff, but like, if you're willing to put in that work, you know, or like setting that boundary. But I think also we all want to be the hero in our story, so we want ch Chad to be the villain and sometimes Chad isn't the villain, right, like sometimes he just like sucks at communicating.

Speaker 1: 19:12

So we have to feel what is it like to be that person Like. Some people are like, ooh, I like it, and others are like, oh, get this off me. Like I never want to be this mean, right, but it's interesting just to put yourself in that person's shoes, right. And then and then we practice actually role-playing, like how would you have this hard conversation with this person? Because, guess what, it's not just going to be one conversation, it's going to be one over and over again for like over a year before you finally maybe make some inroads.

Speaker 3: 19:51

I see this a lot with leaders. So they bring on like a new hire and they're just not performing where they need to perform. So leaders are instantly like, well, this guy doesn't give a crap, or this Chad is, he's not a good fit. Chad's being a jerk, instead of truly asking the hard questions to themselves or admitting that they can't get Chad where he needs to go. Right, right, you know.

Speaker 2: 20:17

Right and I think about you know, just in the context of you know, personal experience. A lot of these people Chad's um are jerks because they're, they've been rewarded to exhibit that behavior either be aggressive and drive sales and be pushy, and they get the promotions and the raises and the recognition, yeah.

Speaker 1: 20:42

So so that's where, like, you have to slowly change that culture by challenging that right. I know so many salespeople that are just like that and maybe that works in certain realms. But I remember talking to this one guy and he knew it. He was just like yeah, I know I'm an a-hole, I don't really care and I know it's just like. Well, do you know the impact you're having? He's like look, it works, and as long as it works, I'm going to keep doing it. So everyone else has to make it seem, make it so that it doesn't work anymore, right? Like they keep getting rewarded for that, they keep getting their bonuses, even though they get complaints all the time. So why should they change, right?

Speaker 3: 21:24

So in HR, in the HR space, a lot of us sometimes not me, but there are a lot of HR individuals that have to deal with the Chad that is, let's say, the CEO.

Speaker 1: 21:36

Yeah.

Speaker 3: 21:37

Would your advice change or be any different for that HR individual?

Speaker 1: 21:44

like what power dynamics exist. Because, I mean, we have to be careful sometimes, right, because sometimes we don't want to speak up to the person because we're like that person is just going to fire us. And that might be true or it might not be true. You have to, you have to gauge that for yourself. But if someone that is like a 10 year, like it's been part of HR for a while, and can represent the group and knows that you know they have cover, right, they have other VPs that are going to vouch for them, so that even if that CEO snaps and is like, oh, get rid of Kyle, because you know he challenged me, you know, you know you're not going to get removed, then it's worth challenging that CEO and then again approaching it from the standpoint of like, listen, ceo, you know our sales numbers right now. You know we hit 2 million. I have a way in which we could probably hit 2.5 or 3 million, which means your bonus is going to be much larger and the board of directors is going to love you. Do you want to know how to do that? And they're like, oh, why Stop being such a dick? Like hey, like you, you know this is super easy, like you know, and I even call the team leaders all the time. You know, especially in this virtual space, people are already 85 disengaged from work. They must be even more disengaged now that they're at home. Right, they might be even thinking about other jobs. But one quick thing you can do that would be amazing for your staff is to reach out to them one-on-one and be like hey, you know, I know this has been a tough year.

Speaker 1: 23:19

What is the work that you love to do most at this job? Like the work where you forget about time. Marcus Buckingham refers to it as the red thread work. Gay Hendricks refers to it as your zone of genius. You know that work that is just you that, frankly, if no one paid you, you'd still do this work, you know, and you ask them that you know.

Speaker 1: 23:38

Okay, sweet, you love talking to clients. You love connecting with people. What percentage of time do you currently do that? Oh, only 15%. Is there any way in which we can figure out how you can go from 15 to 20%, which maybe is like one to two extra hours, and by doing that you're actually helping them get into their flow work which actually has, you know, exponential results on productivity, because there's a ripple effect on all the other work that they're doing. And you do the other thing, which is really powerful, where you communicate. Hey, I see you, I hear you and I care about you as a human being, and this is why I want to figure out how you can do more of the work that makes you come alive, and when you do that, you're going to reduce your turnover. You're going to have people stay longer and then you're going to have people that are going to be more committed to you.

Speaker 2: 24:32

Absolutely. I'm reflecting, and this is great content. I just remember earlier in my career, new HR professional, a lot of this stuff is so heavy and the feedback that I would get is a lot of this stuff is so heavy and the feedback that I would get is you know, have a little bit more fun. And I'd look at somebody and be like, but this isn't fun. I'm dealing with problem performers. People are mad I can't hire enough people, and even the ones I do don't stick around long enough to you know, make a difference. And you know it's it, it's it. It's really easy to lose sight of the, the fun stuff in in the in, in kind of the muck. So so what? What do you do when you're working with teams or when you're, when you're working through your process, to re-instill that sense of fun and enjoyment in work?

Speaker 1: 25:24

I. I think you have to tie it back to your why right? Like, what are you doing there? Like, why did you start in HR in the first place? Like, let's figure that out. You know we run a workshop called your Future is when your Fun Is right, and part of the reason why I say that is, you know Stephen Johnson talks about you'll find the future where people are having the most fun. You'll find the future where people are having the most fun, and if you look at the organizations that are most resilient right now, that are thriving in 2020, tiktok, disney, hulu, netflix it's because people are having fun there. Even you know and I don't support Jeff Bezos at all, but you know, when he started Amazon, he was tackling some of the most interesting issues in the tech world and all the tech heads wanted to hang out with him because that was the most interesting place to be. So you have to think about that for you of just like, what are the way, what are the things that like, drive me right?

Speaker 1: 26:24

So in our your Future is when your Fun Is workshop, we actually ask people what did you love to do as a kid? Right, and I do it with my friend, lauren, yee, and she goes. You know what I love to do as a kid. I love playing sardines, which is reverse hide-and-seek. It's such a fun game. Basically, somebody hides, everyone looks for that person. If you find that person that's hidden, you hide too and then you stack in like a pack of sardines until finally there's like eight people in a corner. One person's like where's everybody, and everyone else is like be quiet, don't say anything. You know, I've done this with adults. It's hilarious. We like all hid underneath a house, you know. So like it's great when you're a little tipsy too. Anyway, so I was like what is it that you love to do? What do you? What do you love, right, what do you love about sardines? And she was like I love that it's creative, I love that it's collaborative, I love that it has connection.

Speaker 1: 27:13

And then we took those play values that she had and we were like what of your work that you do in a given day or in a given week has those aspects or has all of those aspects? So I would challenge your staff, or your, your staff or you, to like write down all the tasks, all the things that you do, and and figure out what is. What is it that is, is the the good stuff, the delicious stuff, right, and then start your day doing that work before you do anything else. Because when you do that like I start my day with a TikTok right, like I make a TikTok video that has no ROI, has no productive value, but it positively primes my day to see the day as play right. And then my friend Desiree taught me this trick of, like you ask this question how can it get any better than this? So, when something good happens, or like I start my day in a fun way and then I go, oh, how can it get any better than this? So, when something good happens, or like I start my day in a fun way and then I go, ooh, how can it get any better than this? Ooh, well then, I was on a podcast with this this guy, chris Lynn, and he did such a fricking, phenomenal interview. How can it get any better than this? I just got off the phone with a client of mine and inspired her to start making videos and take risks. Ooh, how can it get any better than this? Now Kyle and Molly and I are talking on the Rebel HR podcast. Let's go.

Speaker 1: 28:32

And then you were stacking all those positive priming moments.

Speaker 1: 28:36

Now, on the flip side, what people are doing usually in a workday is first they look at the news, which actually makes you 20 to 30% less productive, and then, when they say they have a bad day, I challenged whether they had a bad day.

Speaker 1: 28:50

Because what you had is you had a bad moment and, based off of positive psychology thoughts, only last between nine seconds and 90 seconds. So you had a bad moment, and then you ruminated about that bad moment over and over again like a thousand times in your head, and then you primed your mind to look for the next bad moment and the next bad moment and the next bad moment until you made up a bad day. And it's really hard in HR because you get shit on all the time, like people are always throwing all the problems your way, so you're always feeling like you're getting all these bad moments. So by simply flipping it and being like you know Ooh, let me do something fun, how can it get any better than this? And being curious about how your day might go, that is how you can change your day and possibly change the way you work.

Speaker 2: 29:39

Oh my gosh, I just had like a revelatory moment. It's like sweet. So I just heard, I heard that and I thought it's like when you get a new car and then you're driving and you see that same car everywhere now yeah. And you never noticed the car before?

Speaker 1: 29:54

Am.

Speaker 1: 29:55

I on the same page, right, that is exactly what your brain is doing all the time, because your brain is looking for patterns, right Like it's constantly looking for patterns to see whether there's danger or not danger that's what your prefrontal cortex, or inner critic, is doing. So when you prime your mind to look for good patterns, things happen. Here's another tip that's really cool at meetings you can actually positively prime a meeting by whoever starts the meeting, and this is before the meeting actually starts. Let's say the first people that join the virtual call. Let's say someone is like showing baby pictures or showing their baby or something happy, or they're telling about some happy story that happened or some fun thing they did during the weekend. You have now primed the meeting to be positive, so the meeting is going to be more productive. But if the first people on the call were complaining before anyone joins, productivity you know the meeting goes really badly, drops dramatically so, and you don't even have to be the leader of the meeting, it's just the first person to speak.

Speaker 2: 30:57

So so should we just ban negative um conversations and meetings? Is that or the idea? You know? Why are we?

Speaker 1: 31:03

complaining. Are we complaining just to complain Because like that's what we do here, or are we complaining? Are we complaining just to complain Because, like that's what we do here? Or are we complaining with the idea of, like trying to solve a problem. Like you have had friends right that are that are complaining and you're like oh, you've said this so many times Like you just want to tell them, like dude, just deal with it already, break up with that person or whatever. Just you know, or whatever. But sometimes people just want to complain for complaint's sake. So it's cool if you say that like, hey, I just want to word vomit right now and I just want to complain Awesome. But at some point then be like, okay, we're going to allow people to complain, but then yo, now we got to actually address, let's actually figure out some solutions to this instead of just bsing around these problems so how do you address the, the people?

Speaker 2: 31:54

because I guarantee you there's some people in the audience sitting here thinking, yeah, this sounds good, uh, this, you know this guy sounds cool and you know this is a fun premise, right, but how this? This sounds a little bit fuzzy and kind of like one of these HR initiatives. How do you address those people that are coming from a context of work sucks, deal with it.

Speaker 1: 32:21

Yeah, sure, yeah. So let's talk about examples of success, right, like? Let's take, for example, google. You know, with their 20% rule, they gave their staff a fifth of their time to, uh, pursue things that interest them as long as it benefits the organization from that, from that um initiative. That is where Google meet was created. That is where Gmail was created. So many of the billion-dollar ventures that Google did were because they allowed their staff to play.

Speaker 1: 32:58

Now you, as a smaller organization, can't give your staff a fifth of the time, but you can find an hour to give them an extra hour. Just see, don't believe me, let's experiment with it, right, you know? Look at Tony Hsieh that ran Zappos, like us, such a huge loss. That dude would pay people three grand to leave his organization, like they would be there for a month. And he's like, you know, if you don't like the culture here, because we are just super nerdy and we we actually are, you know how they always say, like, be whoever you want to be, be your authentic self, but then they don't follow through with it. You know he actually allowed people to show up however they wanted to show up, right, you know? Blue hair and all, and then after a month you'd be like I'm going to give you $3,000 to leave, do you want to leave? And then people actually stayed if they were really committed.

Speaker 1: 33:52

So there's many examples of what fun actually can do for the organization, because think about the organizations that are not having fun. There was an organization not too long ago that was super stiff, that heard these ideas and were like, oh you know, I just heard about this really small organization, small company that is selling or send mailing dvds to people, like, can you believe that? And then they're now talking about, like you know, you can download a movie or watch it on your computer. That that's so dumb, right? Yo guess what? Blockbuster is gone now.

Speaker 1: 34:30

Because they were stiff, because they were like, because they weren't really willing to adapt or be resilient and, frankly, a lot of staff don't want to go back to normal, right, you know there's going to be a drastic new normal where we can bring more humanity to work, because right now, 85% of people are freaking, disengaged at work. People can only focus, I think, for about two hours and 53 minutes of an eight-hour workday. So, knowing this, knowing that all these studies communicate this, why would it be focused on trying to get them to do the best work that they want to do. That actually will produce the most productivity for the organization.

Speaker 3: 35:15

One thing I hear a lot of is organizations say yeah, that's great for these companies that have the money or the build outs to create a fun space, right, but we are an old a building still in cubicles. How do you? You have to have the space to cultivate, play and kind of in the same realm, like now that we're all in a virtual world. How has that shifted?

Speaker 1: 35:40

So I think in the virtual world this is where there's a lot of experimentation, right? You know, even if you can't move like the this really old organization has been around for a hundred years you can have an influence on your team. If you have any staff, you can start there. You know I think it was Sinek, who was Simon Sinek who was talking about it where, at this really bad organization, there was one team that was doing really innovative, creative things, and then people wanted to get part of that team, and then leaders, a lot of VPs, were like what's happening with that team? Why are they producing at such an exponential rate? And then they started to adopt some of those practices.

Speaker 1: 36:25

So you need to focus on what is within your circle of influence, right, your circle of control, and instead of thinking like, oh, I got to change this entire organization, I got to change how the CEO approaches it, just do it for yourself. First, identify what are the fun things that I want to do for me, awesome, okay. What are the fun things I want to do for my staff, sweet, that make them come most alive? You know, how can, how can we take a problem that we always have and instead of doing it in the mundane way. You know, let's figure out a more playful, creative way of doing it.

Speaker 1: 36:57

You know, one of the worst brainstorming sessions you can do is to have people go into a box room, you know, sit at a box table and be like you have an hour, come up with your best ideas. Like, let's think, let's rethink how we're going to do a brainstorming meeting. You know, maybe all of you are on your phone and you're all walking while you're on your phone and talking, like, figure, try out different ways of positively prime the meeting. Like, just keep experimenting, because I think the biggest problem we have is have is we lack hope and we're super pessimistic. So we're like, yeah, it's never going to work here. Well, maybe it won't or maybe it will. Why don't we try it and just see what happens?

Speaker 2: 37:42

So I think one of the interesting things is, as I'm reflecting on some of this advice is I'm thinking about your career path and you strike me as an individual that you're going to find happiness wherever you are, and if you can't, you're not going to stick around.

Speaker 1: 37:58

No.

Speaker 2: 37:59

And I think about so many people that I know who do stick around and and just wallow in the misery and don't know how to get out of it. So so when we have those employees that we know are just like they hate their job, they're totally in the wrong job, but they're effective, they get it done.

Speaker 2: 38:22

How do we break through that? How do we get through to people that, hey, work doesn't have to be painful, it's not always fun, but there should be at least a little bit of fun. How do we address that?

Speaker 1: 38:35

Yeah, I think there's a few different ways to do it right. There's first just modeling, like are you actually having fun at work? Like, are you actually showing how to do it Right? But I think then the next part is is and I would bring this up to staff like you know, some two of the biggest regrets of the dying is I worked too much. And the second regret is I didn't live. I didn't have the courage to live the life that I wanted to live, but live the life that others expected of me.

Speaker 1: 39:06

And I would take that when you sit down with that person and just call out the truth about it, like look, you've been here like five years. Like I know you're burned out, I know you're not happy, I know you don't like what you're doing. What do you like to do right? Is there anything at this job worth salvaging? And if there's not, then yo let's brainstorm. What is it that you actually want to do? And in the meantime, you know you I'll give you some time to figure that out, but you'll find that because now you're communicating that you care about them, even if they don't stay at this company, all of a sudden their work gets better, because they should, you're showing that you actually like care about them. Like you, you give a give a shit about him, right? So, um, that has a huge exponential like um increase in in connection right there, because you're really like calling out the elephant in the room and, yeah, and you're showing that that, even if it doesn't benefit me, I'm still looking out for you.

Speaker 2: 40:14

Absolutely. I'm going to put that in my office. I'm going to get that framed. I give a shit about you. That's good.

Speaker 3: 40:24

Yeah, that would probably work at my company. Yeah, I have a question. It's a very selfish question, just because this has been one of my struggles. I've been in employers where we're all under one roof, it's a lot easier to cultivate fun, a playful culture. Right Now I'm in an organization where we have several different locations and it's a lot. It's a lot more challenging. What advice do you have?

Speaker 1: 40:46

I think the advice so interesting. Usually, when people ask me that question, they're like solve it, give me the answers. Right, I'll take that too. But there's something empowering about being like get a bunch of the people that you know that also care about the same vision that you have. That you're like we need to infuse more play, more fun into this. We need to be more creative, because I feel like we're kind of stuck right now. Right, find the other people that believe that like you, and be like yo. Let's figure it out. Let's brainstorm this. Let's, you know, maybe over a little drinks, let's do have a tipsy storm, you know, over some, you know alcohol or chocolate or ice cream, however, you want to do it. And let's brainstorm the craziest ideas of what we could actually try to pull off, right, you know, and then come up with this crazy list of ideas and then circle a few that resonate and then go to the bigger group and try them out. Or reach out to some of those people that may be disengaged and be like yo. This is the problem we're trying to solve. Help us solve this.

Speaker 1: 41:52

So you're actually empowering everyone to make the decision together, because the flip side of that is you're like hey, I have this fun team building event that's going to fix everything. Or I have this fun team building a game. You know we're going to do Secret Santa. Now, everyone's going to be all good again and it's just like, oh, I hate Secret Santa. You know like let's not have forced fun, let's actually ask people do you want to have fun or more fun at work? Most of the time people are going to be like yeah, you know. Okay, are you willing to figure out how to do this? All right, you know, let's let's take some time and let's let's try to break this down and figure this out. We're all smart people here.

Speaker 3: 42:30

Right Setting expectations that I don't want to talk about the reasons why this won't work. Let's just bring some ideas and let's talk about how we can make them work.

Speaker 1: 42:39

And that is an improv exercise. Right there, the yes, and where you yes, and for 45, 50 minutes where no one can criticize anyone's ideas. They do that in improv all the time. That's what keeps an improv scene going. They never negate anything, they're always saying yes, and this right Like oh, you know what I think we should do, you know, I think we should give staff like an hour to pursue something that they think is interesting for like the next month, and then, and it's just like, oh, yeah, yes, and and whoever comes up with like a really creative idea, let's celebrate that person and let everyone know that this happened, because they devoted five hours in the last month to this, oh, yes, and. And then you just keep adding on to that and just see where these crazy ideas go, because you'd be amazed what you're going to be able to come up with when you allow yourself to not poop on ideas.

Speaker 3: 43:36

I think people would have a hard time with that in the best way, just because I think people naturally go to yes.

Speaker 1: 43:43

But yes, exactly.

Speaker 3: 43:47

It drives me nuts, but yes great.

Speaker 1: 43:49

Actually run that in our workshop, where we have people go and do a meeting where it's all knows, and then we have people go and do a meeting where it's yes, but, and then we have people do a meeting and it's all no's. And then we have people go and do a meeting where it's yes, but, and then we have people do a meeting and it's yes and, and then we ask them how does it feel in each situation? Right, and sometimes we ask people well, I'll ask you, molly, what's worse, when you get a straight no or when you get a yes?

Speaker 3: 44:10

but Probably no.

Speaker 1: 44:13

There's no right answer. It's just like whatever one that you feel.

Speaker 2: 44:17

For me it'd be yes, but because it's like oh great, here comes the argument, well, and it's like they're not even listening to me.

Speaker 1: 44:22

really, they're already thinking of all the ways that it won't work Right. Or they give you hope where they're like.

Speaker 2: 44:28

Yeah, we could do that, but you know, but some people are Well, we trying that 20 years ago.

Speaker 1: 44:35

Other people might see the yes but as a possibility, like Ooh, but they didn't say no directly, that you know. So so again, it's just playing with language and and being like, hey, let's yes and and get get a little uncomfortable, you know, because I'm tired of just having a bad attitude coming to work.

Speaker 2: 44:56

Yeah, if there's any uh, young HR professionals listening to this or young and career professionals listening to this, just know, if you take a yes but as a an approval to do something within HR, I might, in poorly, take it from me. I've been there, I love that, I love that and I, I'm just, I'm sitting here and, um, I mean, this is just resonating so much. Uh, today's been a good day. You know, I, I today's been really positive and I'm just reflecting on, okay, how did I start? Um, I didn't watch the news. I turned on music when my day started. I'm a very amateur musician and, uh, and I hugged my kids in the morning before I went to work Nice, you know. And it's like one of those things like, oh yeah, you know, I did have a really good day today and it started good. And then I think about yesterday wasn't so good and it's because I turned on the CNBC and watched the stock market. You know, show up red Right. So it's like, yeah, maybe there's something to this.

Speaker 1: 45:57

And I would even do. I do this exercise at the end of the year because I really don't believe in resolutions. A lot of people give up or forget. They literally forget their resolution three months in. But I was like but wait a minute, there is something worth reflecting on the year and then planning out the next year. So I came up with this thing called the Fun Joy Play Index, and it was all about like looking back at your year and being like what was fun about this year, what was joyful about this year, what was like one of the most impactful things that happened this year?

Speaker 1: 46:30

And you can do the same thing at work, where you're like what were we able to overcome? The fact that maybe our company's even still around is a huge accomplishment in 2020, when so many companies are going out of business, right? So the practice of gratitude like so many studies have shown, you write three grateful things at the beginning of the day or at the end of the day after 30 days, you are exponentially happier. So if you're practicing these methods even if they sound a little woo woo with your HR staff and and reflecting and celebrating the accomplishments you actually did make, and and actually going back in your email and your calendar and you're like, oh yeah, we did do that in January. Wow, I can't believe we did that. That's actually pretty awesome. Then you're going to actually feel like you've got more done, you know, and you built something together with your team.

Speaker 3: 47:22

I am a true believer in this. I do this every year. I do this on a quarterly basis with my team, and it's so amazing every time we do it because, especially this year, everybody was so down in the dumps about the year and you look back about at everything that we've accomplished and you can just it slipped like. There were so focused on the negative and everything that went wrong. But there was a lot to celebrate this year as well right, yeah, I'm, I 100 agree.

Speaker 2: 47:50

I was on a on a walk with my son last night, nine-year-old uh son and I was. You know, I was talking to him about the year and, um, you know, just kind of that open about the year and, um, you know, just kind of that open-ended, like hey, you doing okay, um, yeah, it's been a weird year and yeah, yeah, everything's fine and and the conversation uh went from you know a point of concern to talking about all the good things. You know, more more family time, uh, the uh, he, he got more screen time, he loves screen time. He got more screen time, he loves screen time. Nice, so you know this year was great for him. Yeah, and you know the new normal for him is probably what he loves to do.

Speaker 3: 48:25

Right.

Speaker 2: 48:27

Which is be on screens and create things on screens, and he's going to be a famous YouTuber someday Nice, If he has his way, you know. But you know, all of that creativity that he embraced this year was unlocked because of the situation in 2020. So you know, there's a lot of silver linings this year. I'm with you, Molly.

Speaker 1: 48:48

And there's some resilience in being limited. When you're when you limit or limited in a lot of ways, you have to get really creative, right. Right, you know and I think it was a study done by, I think, hubspot that was like 63 percent of staffs you know in the workplace say they would be more productive if they got more positive feedback. And if you think about it, anytime you usually give feedback, you're giving that like that love sandwich where it's like I'm really want to give you bad feedback but I'm going to pack in some positive. But imagine if you were just giving just consistent positive feedback on a regular basis over the next like three months. Watch what happens to your staff. They are going to light up and they're going to feel appreciated and they're going to produce in ways that you never thought possible.

Speaker 2: 49:35

I love it. Well, we are unfortunately getting close to time. Uh, if, if we were meeting face to face, I'd be like let's just, let's have another round and go another three hours here. But I want to be respectful of your time, so, uh, we are going to move into the uh, hr flash round. Oh, I love the flash here. We go all right. Flash round one. What are you reading right now?

Speaker 1: 49:58

Oh, I am reading two books how to Live a Good Life by Jonathan Fields. I'm reading that in a book club and I'm reading Anand Giridagas's book on Winners. Take All, which is arguing should billionaires exist while people are still in poverty?

Speaker 2: 50:19

Interesting.

Speaker 1: 50:21

That's a whole other show, I think.

Speaker 2: 50:25

Who should we be listening to?

Speaker 1: 50:29

Oh, interesting. Well, I'll answer it in two ways, right? The first way is if 2020 has taught me anything, it's that no one knows what they're doing and we're all making it up as we go along. So the first person you need to be listening to is yourself, like, practicing, strengthening listening to your inner child, your intuition, because you have all the answers that you need. You have all the answers that you need, like I say this all the time, you know, um, advice only resonate, the advice I give people only resonates with you, because you've already given that advice to yourself and I'm just saying it in a different way. So that would be the first person that you need to listen to yourself.

Speaker 1: 51:11

Um, if I was thinking of us, of another person, I don't know, I'm really vibing with Jonathan Fields. He runs this phenomenal podcast called the Good Life Project and I just was on his podcast because he did a show just called the Hug and it was all about sharing stories of gratitude during this really tough time and unity and being like how can we give a virtual, virtual hug to people? Because this, you know, this has been a really tough year for a lot of people. So, jonathan Fields, Love it.

Speaker 2: 51:43

You might have to check him out. I am not familiar, so it sounds like there's some good content there. Last question this is a tough one how can our listeners connect with you?

Speaker 1: 51:54

So if you want to see my ridiculous videos, my handle is Jeff Harry Plays J-E-F-F-H-A-R-R-Y-P-L-A-Y-S. Or you can come to my website, rediscoveryourplaycom, where I have a bunch of play exercise that teams can actually do, as well as individuals, to figure out who you are and how you can play more at work. Or you could just hop on a call with me when you click that let's Play button and we can figure out how you can kick ass in this world and make a much more fun, psychologically safe place for all of us to work.

Speaker 2: 52:32

Love it. Great, great conversation. We'll have all those details in the show notes, but we definitely have gained a lot from this conversation, a lot of things we can take away for us in HR and some ways to rebel against some of the systems, right.

Speaker 1: 52:50

Let's go.

Speaker 2: 52:51

Got to tie it all together.

Speaker 1: 52:52

Hey, thanks so much, Kyle and Molly. This has been super fun.

Speaker 2: 52:56

Same here. Thanks again, looking forward to continuing to follow you and learn from you. Thanks, jeff. All right, that does it for the Rebel HR podcast. Big thank you to our guests. Follow us on Facebook at Rebel HR Podcast, twitter at Rebel HR Guy, or see our website at rebelhumanresourcescom. The views and opinions expressed by Rebel HR Podcast are those of the authors and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of any of the organizations that we are in.

Speaker 3: 53:26

No animals were harmed during the filming of this podcast.