Episode 99: Culture Development Marketing with Kelly Keenan

Kelly Keenan: 0:00

Some people just don't feel like they want to be burdened with having to feel like they have to participate at a certain level or being involved in a high octane culture. So if you're able to define it, and they connect with you on that level, then they're going to come there, but it's something they don't want. And they don't. I think it's a way of not even just recruiting more effectively in terms of getting a number of clients, but getting the right clients because they're going to come to you because you're being real and authentic, and they understand the experience ahead of time.

Kyle Roed: 0:30

This is the rebel HR Podcast, the podcast where we talk to HR innovators about all things people leadership. If you're looking for places to find about new ways to think about the world of work, this is the podcast for you. Please subscribe, favorite podcast listening platform today, and leave us a review. Rebel on HR rebels. Alright, rebel HR listeners. Thanks for joining us this week. This one's gonna be a fun one. We with us today have Kelly Kenan he is a leading brand strategist and agency owner, a sought after speaker and a leadership consultant. He's the founder and president of brand story experts. And for the past two decades has helped hundreds of brands clarify their story to ignite their culture and their sales. He has a recently released book called everyone is an influencer, building a brand by engaging the people who matter most welcome to the show. Thank you extremely excited to have you here. And I can tell this is going to be a fun conversation just from our kind of our preliminary discussion here before hit record. So first question I want to ask is what got you into the kind of the people marketing space or the more holistic marketing space?

Kelly Keenan: 1:46

Yeah, so I had an agency, I started in marketing right out of college and 24, I opened an agency, I was in a traditional marketing agency for about 1213 years. And what I saw was really, it wasn't about the ideas, selling it was, you know, really success was happening through the channels that were coming out. And using Facebook and YouTube and all those things to educate. I come come from a family of educators. So to be I was always I was wanting to education. So I was like, this is a great opportunity to use these channels educated. And I ended up starting a new business called Brennan story experts, because it was about you know, really wanted to capitalize on that opportunity. And once I started doing that, helping people kind of get their story straight, clarify who they are, and celebrate that story. Once we started doing that, what I noticed was it was really not just helping out with customers, it was really helping out more with the team and, and clarifying, you know, best practices and being real about who the company was. So as a benefit, you know, it was a it was a big culture changer because it solidified who they were. And, and really everything the experience got better for everyone. And that's, that's how I got into the people business. Because it you know, when you talk about celebrating the company, it's it's not it's not fictional, it's, it's real, and people can see it was real. So it was more meaningful, it affected the culture, it affected the way people hired, retention, everything. So that's, that's kind of the the shift, and I've really enjoyed it, it makes it a lot more meaningful. And in our team loves it because you're having an impact on, you know, so many aspects of the business, not just marketing.

Kyle Roed: 3:40

Yeah, absolutely. And I think, you know, I think it's really interesting approach, and I'm sure our listeners can can agree with this. But you know, one of the, one of the biggest challenges in HR is making that connection between the product or the service that you provide, and, and connecting that to an employee and their experience and their engagement in the workplace. And, you know, I mean, I, I've had a couple scenarios where, you know, I've had people quit to go work for a company that they just thought seemed cooler, right? Or, or just seemed like more attractive for some reason, because it was a known, you know, a known employer or a known brand or something that they just perceived as, as maybe, you know, you know, just more fun. And so I think we can all reflect on those types of conversations or those types of experiences. So yeah, I got to believe you've got some stories of organizations that you've helped and you've and you've seen some impacts, to prevent things like that.

Kelly Keenan: 4:44

Yeah, it's really and we always say there's three components to a story, and that's sort of the basis of our process telling a complete comprehensive story. Because, you know, people have different things that matter to them, you know, and you may think that it's the result it's what people was like, oh, it's not just paid, it matters to people. Well, no shit, it's, it's not just pay, it's nobody, there's so many people that care about so much more than pay, it depends on people's experiences their background. And so if, if it's, you know, what we say is the attitude driving direction. So the attitude is like the emotional people. And really, we want to make sure that we define who you are, and how you connect in that way. Because some people they've had bad experiences, they just want it we deal with with bosses that didn't treat them with respect, or a company that didn't really feel lively, as you're saying, it wasn't fun. So that attitude is, is really important that those are that they listen to their, their heart, people, they want to feel the connection and build trust motional. So that's the first side of it is having that attitude define. And, and the second kind of people is sort of the, the habits, systems and processes people they want to know, you know, what to expect, what's going to happen, what their day is gonna look like, how it's going to be, how they're going to get along with a team, what kind of culture do you have. So it's that those habits, systems and processes they're employed, we try to really detail those as a second part of the story. Because people, they really care about operational mindset first, and they that's just the way that they function. And then finally, it's the direction of the company. And that's the word people can expect to head with this company, where are they going? What are the not just the results and the reputation, but what does the future hold. So that's the third part of any story that we do. So when you tell a story that includes all three of those components, and you celebrate it through social media, and you do it from films, or if you do it in a way, that's just, you know, time after time, and it's real, and you can do that, because it's you know, you don't need to write it a script for these people. You know, it's just celebrating it through content, you know, you end up really allowing people to attach in the way that matters most to them. And, you know, and that is how you hire people more effectively, because they're going to be able to see who you are, if you're a fun organization, and somebody wants that, in your you're real and authentic about celebrating that they're gonna come there. You know, that's just the way it goes. If you're a some people don't like fun, they're introverts and they want to know that, they're just going to show up, and you ask them to do their job, here's the expectations and they get paid, well, they're going to come here, but you know, the fun person is probably not going to be there, and you probably don't want them there. So it's because they're not going to be happy. So anyways, I think it's more about just, you know, finding out the right fit, some people just don't feel like they want to be burdened with having to feel like they have to participate at a certain level or being involved in a high octane culture. So if you're able to define it, and they connect with you on that level, then they're gonna come there, but it's something they don't want, and they don't. And I think it's just, it's a way of not even just recruiting more effectively, you know, in terms of getting a number of clients, but getting the right clients, because they're going to come to you because you're being real and authentic, and they understand the experience ahead of time. You know, so that's, that's the big benefit there.

Kyle Roed: 8:23

Absolutely. Yeah, I think, you know, I think what's so interesting about that, that approach and that, that, you know, that the system that you've built around that is it is it's about not only defining your, you know, building your brand, but it's also about making allowing people the opportunity to kind of self select, right, like, Hey, I, you know, something, like something resonates here, like, and if you truly are authentic, you know, that's gonna make it a whole lot easier to make sure that you're getting people who are the right, you know, fit for your organization, or, or are the right fit for, you know, a consumer of whatever you're producing. So,

Kelly Keenan: 9:05

yeah, it's not, it's also just running the race that is right for you, you know, it's everybody. A lot of times, it's like a checklist when it comes to human resources. You know, we got to say, we do this, this, this, this, and this, oh, and I heard somebody else is talking about this, oh, we got to do that too. And also, we offer this and what ends up happening is everybody saying the same thing, you know, and truly when when you when you understand who you are, and what differentiates you and you can own that you don't have to be everything. You just have to be who you are because that those are the things that that how you're going to show up and people are going to say yeah, they are like that, and then other people are going to start talking about it because when you understand who you are at your best and the most inspiring aspects of your business, those are the things that that people are going to champion and they're going to talk about to and reinforce and that's how Your brand gets bigger and bigger, and separates itself from all these other people that are just talking about ordinary things that are just checklists that everybody has to add. Because after a certain point, you know, you're just blending in with everyone else. So nobody can, nobody can replicate your people in the experience, if you truly understand, you know, your people and what you're doing, and you take pride in that. So, that's, that's what our process is built to uncover in, that's why we're able to help differentiate people and celebrate that story. And, and, and get people you know, most importantly, to get the team on board. Because every rollout meeting that I ever do with a team, I say to him, you know, this is a, this is the reputation you've earned, we've uncovered. And, you know, we want to celebrate this because you guys work too hard not to differentiate yourself. So you can get better team members to work shoulder to shoulder with you. So you can be more successful for your families, you know, so let's, let's celebrate this reputation you've earned, take pride in it. And as an as an agency, we're going to do our best to do that, and take that content and make sure that people understand it, and we take a great deal of pride in that honor of being able to represent a company in a culture. So that's, that's the mindset, man. I mean, it makes it fun for everybody. So,

Kyle Roed: 11:27

absolutely, you know, and I think what's so interesting, you know, and I want to talk a little bit about a little bit about the book here is the fact that, you know, that, that your book is hitting on a couple really critical concepts, one of them being, you know, people being influencers, which, of course, you know, that's kind of like, that's everybody's goal that's graduating from high school right now is, you know, be a social media influencer. But also, you know, building a brand by engaging, you know, the people who matter most IE, you know, your, your team, your, your key player, so, so as you as you thought about that, as you're getting ready for the book, I got to believe that you learned, you learned some interesting insights. So what were some insights as you were writing this, that, that really kind of surprised you?

Kelly Keenan: 12:14

You know, it's, it's neat to see that that concept, the influencer concept, it applies to everything, really not just in people that you hire to represent your brand. But it hires in terms of the people that, you know, that are working in your company, in any, you know, the relationships that you have sponsorships, I just talked with a client today, and they are an organization that, really, they they've been around sponsoring community events. And one of the things we're down in Florida, so they do fishing tournaments in that, and now they're, they're going to sponsor this, this, you know, TV show, that's about helping, you know, make fishing about family and helping disadvantaged kids go fishing and, and it's really about trying to find the synergy between the sponsorship in why it matters to them and celebrating that alignment. Because then that, that, that that sponsorship becomes more than that just being one of the 27 people that are on the webpage that are putting their logo out there, when you can explain and make people understand how you're truly integrated with this influencer, then then then their influence becomes something more than just, hey, they can give me these numbers and this following, it's about shared vision and values, and being able to shine a light on that and educate people on it. It changes it, you know, that's, that's a true relationship. Those are the people that matter most, those are the relationships that matter most, when you can help people through education understand why there's a true relationship there. And then, you know, for example, your team members will see that sponsorship and say, That's right, we do that, and we have been doing it. And so it's real to them. And it means more to them. You know, same thing with it, the people that are out there in the community that have seen you back behind, you know, sponsoring fishing is what I'm telling the guy and you know, people had seen you do it for the last 10 years. Now you're bringing something saying fishing has always been important to us. It's about family. And now this is something that's more meaningful, and this is why it matters to us and why we wanted to get behind it. So you know, it's understanding a way to make the most of relationships through authentic integration, where your vision and values match up, and everything gets better. And I tell you, it makes it makes things that seemingly are just, you know, doing it just to do it because you have, you know, corporate responsibility to support the community and just doing it and signing a check. It makes it more valuable to everybody. So that's that's, that's really the understanding of everyone's an influencer. It's it's, you know, making the experience better for everyone. I just truly, you know, educating people on where that relationship exists, why the relationship matters? And, you know, that's, that's been a big difference maker.

Kyle Roed: 15:20

Yeah, it's really interesting. And I think it's something that, you know, in my seat as an HR professional, a lot of times we do get, we get stuck with like, the like, oh, here, you get to do the charitable contributions budget. Yeah. Right. Your HR, you know, that that's how HR is like, it's like, oh, here, you you're the person that has to, you know, monitor the permit parking passes, and all these random things. It's like, because nobody else wants to. Right. Right. But I distinctly remember, you know, your story reminded me of a time when I was working at a, at a local manufacturer. And it was, it was back in, you know, this would have been, Oh, 809. You know, everybody was pinching every single dollar that they could. And so what, you know, what's one of the first budgets to go away? Well, the charitable contributions budget got slashed the local budget, right, which was, it wasn't much to begin with, you know, very, very, very small. But with that, with those little dollars, every year, what we were doing is we were sponsoring this local baseball team, and we're talking like$100, so that they could, you know, get shirts and, and hats for the team, right? And then these kids could go out and play T ball. And what I didn't realize, you know, I mean, you're just kind of like, oh, well, too bad. You know, sorry about that. I guess, I guess we just can't do that anymore. But what the ripple effect of not sponsoring that team did is that like, we had so many employees that had kids on that team, that when we did sponsored, it's like the the people that were like standing outside my office for this like this, what seemed like a meager sponsorship, we're so so frustrated. And for me, that was really eye opening was like, Oh, wow, this really, you know, this really does matter, we should be pretty thoughtful about these types of things, and kind of the impact of these types of things. But, you know, that those employees saw that is, you know, we're supporting their kids. Yeah, supporting them learn learning teamwork, we're supporting them getting some work ethic, we're giving them something that's safe to do outside of school, and we were supportive of all those things. And it's something that's it's really easy to lose sight of, when it's just a small little line item on the budget, right. But yeah, it matters. It matters a lot.

Kelly Keenan: 17:41

Well, in that that is a tremendous example of how it's, you know, I'm talking to you about a charity and how that its vision and values. And, and that's another another way of looking at it. But the way that you just talked about is, you know, really what that boils down to is you're supporting the team members and their kids and their families. And you know, you you don't know that because you don't have an education of that. But for example, if you'd had social media posts about, hey, we support our team members, we support our team, we love seeing our kids doing it and you celebrate that everybody knows that everybody's aware of it. And not only does it help the people that are making the decisions, not cut the $100 it's more than that. It's really, the education helps people more people feel good about it, you know, because it doesn't have to be their kids playing on that team, their kids can play another sport, and just say, hey, it's great that we are not playing sports, and just to say, hey, they support and support us, and it's meaningful. So just understanding who you are understanding the relationships you have, and that's a that's a tremendous example because I I've seen a company that they have, they sponsored this basketball team, that was basically like a local basketball team that competes and and they went there were the jerseys from the company. And, you know, they've got three team members on that basketball team, who are leaders in their company and and they put it on Facebook and then win the championship. And they you know, they treat it like it's a big deal. This is a company that has 600 team members, and they're sponsoring or they're talking about this, but it makes a big difference in about five years later, they had another guy who runs racist cars, and they put the company logo on the car and they sort of celebrating that it's just that's one part of it. It's in those those employees they become influencers form because now not only they they just very happy, they're getting sponsored but they're you know, they're like, hey, these guys were backing us up. This is what they're doing. It just spreads goodwill across the whole company become stories that you can celebrate and talk about. We're actually doing a film on on that this year. So it's a no you Make the most of that content. So,

Kyle Roed: 20:02

I love that, you know, uh, you know, it's it's, it's, it's awesome. And you know, we're not sitting here saying, Hey, you got to go sponsor a sports team. But but you know, but I do think it is telling to be thoughtful about, okay, what what do I support? What do my employees care about? But I think one of the things I want to start to dig into a little bit is, you know, this isn't about invention. So So walk us through your, your approach on I love I love the way this is described, it's it's don't invent, reveal.

Kelly Keenan: 20:39

Yes, yeah. So really our process that we every relationship, we've done 13 years we've been doing brandstory experts has begun with our process. And the first part of it is an impression analysis. And it's really, you know, taking a look at the impressions that surround the company. So we get a list, we start with the internal list of team members, management, stakeholders, vendors, anybody who's close internal has a perspective from that level. And let's just say it's 100 100 people, it could be 1000 people, you know, but if it's 100 people, then we triple that, because I'm people that are outside list, and that's going to be new customers, old customers, people that aren't working directly for the company, or involved. So they'll have an impression, but it's not going to be the same, right. So we do three to 400, at that time, three or four times, because they're not going to respond at the same rate. And we want a nice, even 360 impression analysis. So once we have that list, we send them you know, 120 attributes, ask them to choose the top 20 that best represent the brand, ask them to narrow that down to 10. And by selecting or deselecting, the ones that they don't want to choose. And then the last one, the force ranking of saying rank them and dominance, one being the most dominant, the 10 being the least, that force ranking really, there's a psychology behind it, it really causes them to say, look, I'm going to put these in order one, this is the most dominant thing that I see in this company, all the way down to 10, you know, positive and negative attributes. And really, what we get is we do a value reverse valuation. And we get a top 15 of where people visualize, you know, the impression surrounding the brand. And it when you see things at the top or see how attributes stack, it's, it's we don't need to wonder whether or not you are seeing that way. I mean, we're learning how people perceive you and not just perceive you in a way that is, you know, individual, it's everybody, its employees, team members, these are the things that shine through unmistakeably. So that's, that's what we use it you know, and it shows us a lot about the brand. And there's so many times I can tell you that the management or owners, the company, President founder, whoever they're such as we also look at what their top 10 is in relationship to the top 15 in the stakeholders and show them where there's connection and disconnect. And we've uncovered some some huge disconnection, you know, this points of disconnection that, that change that everything, you know, for the company, and I write about that in a book for, you know, one of the biggest things is a lot of people think they're community minded. And they'll put that in community oriented, put that at number one. And you have three, three stakeholders that are saying, oh, yeah, one and one has it at one another one as it to another one's that one doesn't even make the top 15. You know, because that's what, that's what they that's what their perception is. And unfortunately, so many companies are, you know, kind of defining who they are based on the stakeholders opinion of, you know, whatever their mission statement is, or whatever they feel like they are, and it's not truly who they are. So I think it's important to always start with something that I like the impression analysis, I didn't invent the impression analysis, but I love it because it shows you in who you are and reputation you've earned. And, you know, that part is the starting point for our process. And it does reveal the characteristics of the brand. We've never had it in 13 years, hundreds of assessments. I've never had somebody say that's not us, not one time. You can't cannot argue with it. So it starts with that. And then the second part is a survey that the stakeholders take now at that point. If they have pages and pages and pages of notes, we're looking for the statements that kind of illustrate how they're earning those attributes. Right. So We pull out statements through their survey 22 questions, they each get them. So if I have two stakeholders three or four, I'm pulling out quotes, and then I'm looking for patterns, once I have those quotes pulled out, and when we have that will, result will be a summary that will basically tell you who the brand is. And in that will represent their attitude, it will represent the habits, systems and processes that matter most in an era, it will represent the direction that people can expect to go with experience with that brand. So that's what that brand story summary is, you know, that becomes the benchmark for content. So I in the beauty of doing it that way, is when you get up and you you ask team members to participate, or you have a film that asks team members to participate, you can illustrate to them and say this isn't a marketing company that created this, this isn't something that came from your owners, this is the reputation you've earned. This is how people saw you, this is how we're going to going to basically clarify it. And then here's the plan to celebrate it. So that's how it works.

Kyle Roed: 26:12

I think it's really fascinating. You know, I love the I love the systematic approach, but you know, it, it just, it just reminds me so much of some of the work that we do, you know, internally in the business is there, you know, there's so much talk right now of trying to be, you know, authentic. And, you know, it reminds me of what I what I would call the realistic job preview approach, which is where instead of trying to hire a candidate and quote, sell them on a job, you know, try to like, like, hey, you know, you, this is the best company ever. Everything's wonderful. Yeah, we're super community minded. You blah, blah, blah, you're actually trying to convince them about some of the challenges that they will face and see if that's something that they're okay with. In my entire approach was that is listen, you know, this isn't sunshine and puppy dogs and rainbows every single day. But it's super rewarding. And here's why. And here's what it's like to work here. And my experience with that is I worked for an organization who shall remain nameless that, you know, it was all about, it was all about the marketing, it was all about, like, here's a flashy job title, it's gonna get, it's going to be super cool. Look at all the cool stuff that you get here, you know, that and, you know, it was very marketing focused. But then we would see 40% turnover in the first year because I would get it and then they'd be like, this isn't what you told me. This sucks. I have to work these crazy hours. And this heart sometimes, like, you told me, this was gonna be great. And I was gonna be, you know, a manager of a senior manager and like a year, and that's not going to happen, you know, I mean, it's just like, I've seen that enough that it's like, yeah, it's got to be authentic, or you will, eventually you're going to pay the price one way or another, you might

Kelly Keenan: 28:05

pay a price on both ends, too, because nobody wants to work at a company that has people leaving and talking shit about the fact that they were lied to on the culture, right? Yeah, people that are staying there, like I'm out of here, you know, I mean, it's not what I believe. Because they, you know, people are going to get into your culture, they're going to make connections. And that's only going to infect your culture. And then eventually, not only is your recruiting, so you're doing that to recruit more people. But now your retention suffers. Because now your people that are there like what the hell am I doing still here? This place does suck. Yeah. And that's you got to be who you are. And I'll tell you one of the things that I really like, what we've said reminded me the best part of my book, I really love the idea that, you know, people talk about telling stories, and telling people you know, I mean, it's his telling to sell is really the poison in, in the marketing industry in the corporate industry is doing exactly what you're what you're talking about finding the right way to phrase things, getting training on say this, to get people to do that, all this training around conversions and selling people. So what I say is don't tell to sell. That's not the opportunity. The opportunity is to celebrate a story, to educate, so celebrate, to educate rather than tell to sell and when you celebrate who you are, and what the experience is like and who your team members are. And you celebrate the culture and what it truly is. You're going to educate the people who matter most and those people are going to make connections and that connection is going to be real because you're not fucking lying to them. Sorry, I heard and nobody wants to be nobody wants to be lied to, and nobody wants to be recruited that way. And they sure as hell don't want that to once they once they're there, start figuring out what's true and what's not. You know, so so just celebrate who you truly are to educate the right people and you will be successful with recruiting and retention, right, you you can only get better because the honesty winds, trust winds, you know, and when people when you're real, and people know that they can take pride in that, they'll come there because they respond to that, and they want to be a part of it. And when they want to be a part of it, you know, then the snowball effect just everything builds. So that's, that's the key man, it's, it's understanding who you are from the start taking pride in it, owning it, and celebrating it. And that's, that's the key.

Kyle Roed: 30:40

Absolutely. And then you know, and then here's the whole, here's the whole circle, right. And then we go all the way back around to the coin, where everybody usually starts in the marketing and the product and the customer. If your employees are all aligned, and they're and there's row in the same direction, and in loving it, and it's working, you're gonna have your customers taken care of too. And ultimately, it's just a big, big, friendly cycle, right? It works.

Kelly Keenan: 31:05

Because your employees now become influencers, because they're jazzed about it, they're talking about, they're, they're reinforcing those things, you're doing it all year of your marketing company, just say, hey, just shine a light on the people that are that are celebrating the company just shine a light on us executing on the promises that we that we're proud of. And when you're doing that, it just not only does it happen online, that it happens with your people, you get people who work for you that are bringing in, you know, their friends telling the friends and recruiting for you that way. You mean, you win, then when you do a referral program, it means something because it's, it's, it's now not just hey, go out and sell somebody on this place. It's like, hey, you know, tell them, we want them to know what you think is special about this place. You know what, we're celebrating that and go out and do it and we're gonna reward you. So

Kyle Roed: 31:58

pretty awesome. I love it. It makes so much sense. And I think what's what's exciting about it is, you know, you're in this isn't just a, like a marketing project, like this is a full holistic approach to an entire marketing strategy. That starts with employees and engagement and influencers and celebration of some of the great things that an organization does. So I love the approach. With that being said, we are, we could keep talking for another hour, I'm sure. But we are quickly coming to the end of our time together. So I want to shift gears, we're going to go into the rebel HR flash round. Are you ready? Yep. All right, here we go. Question number one, what is your favorite people book,

Kelly Keenan: 32:44

you know, I, I really liked Epic Content Marketing, which was a game changer for me, because it was something that really allowed me to look at marketing, not just as a way of selling people. It was a it was someone who kind of believed what I believed, and it was identified and really taught me a lot about people and communicating and, and so for me, it's it's a, that was a that was, and I guess there's gonna be a new one coming out a new version. And I think that's like 10 years old, but new one coming out next year. So I'm pretty excited about it. Joe pleasee wrote that, and I'm looking forward to it. Awesome.

Kyle Roed: 33:27

All right, check it out. Anybody in recruitment marketing? If you haven't that, you know, great marketing, book recommendation. Question number two, who should we be listening to?

Kelly Keenan: 33:40

That question, that's a great question. I I think I listened to as many perspectives as possible I one of the best tools that I've ever had found is the blanket app, I get on that thing. I don't know if you have that or not. But, you know, it enables you to listen to dozens and dozens and dozens of people and learn about their 10 things, 10 blinks of 10 chapters and go through books in 15 minutes, you know, so that, I think, listening for me, it enabled me to hear so many different points. And then when I want to learn something more on the book, I download the audio book, or I'll go buy the book and read it. But if I would give a recommendation on what people should be listening to, I'd say that happened, you know, making notes I've got my team on it. I mean, it's, it's a great, it's a great tool.

Kyle Roed: 34:36

Yeah, absolutely. We're not sponsored by Blinkist. But we'll say, you know, for someone like me who's like, you know, like borderline ADHD and like, I'm always like chasing squirrels. Like it's it's just short enough for me to stay focused and attentive enough and also helps me understand, Okay, do I really want to invest like, you know, A lot of hours into reading this full book, or do I just want the Cliff's Notes version? Right? So yeah,

Kelly Keenan: 35:04

I actually I'm not I mean that my book is not on boy just I added processes. So I shouldn't be anti blackness, but it's so good. You know, I do, I do love it and to your point, it's the, the attention span. And it's really like, okay, something's got to grab you to spend the time to go through a whole book. And if I if I listen to them, oh, man, I find myself stopping or writing down notes and makes it makes you think it's just a great tool for people in any, you know, in any capacity you can get in. And also, last thing I'll say about it is, you know, because things are crossing over now, it's not just marketing, I love what you said, it's, you know, marketing for, you know, its content in a book that I said, I mean, I know this is HR, but things are crossing over HR needs to know about marketing, HR needs to know about, you know, culture development, there's so many different things. So just reading books that are just for your industry, you know, that that's, that's not going to do it now. So you just get things to where they kind of bleed over, and you can take a look and really become an expert, and help this, that knowledge base just grow. So to me, it's, it's a good way, because if you can't read every book out there, and when it comes to the disciplines that really are prominent in your field, so

Kyle Roed: 36:29

100% I think that's really well put, you know, it's it's interesting, back, I don't know, when quarantine hit and COVID was going on crazy and stuff, I kind of made a an intentional decision to get outside of HR, because because I was having, I mean, I was dealing with stuff that was way outside of my normal comfort zone. And I got really, you know, I actually went back to like, learning about accounting and investing. Because I just knew, as we were working through some of the pandemic stuff, I realized, wow, I need to sharpen the axe a little bit on on some of the stuff that I know here because there are really big decisions being made based on these items. I better know what the heck I'm looking at, and why these decisions are being made. And you know, stuff like that, that like that's been one of the more powerful things that I've I've experienced here as far as my own self development. So I agree 100% You got to get outside of your Get set, get outside your comfort zone a little bit. So

Kelly Keenan: 37:31

the same time to be it's exciting time to be an HR because you guys are doing so much more with the organizations these days

Kyle Roed: 37:39

are so full, it's a far cry from being the guy outside giving out parking tickets for my my parking passes. That that is a literal story that legitimately happened early in my career. So Alright, last question. How can our listeners connect with you and learn more?

Kelly Keenan: 37:57

You know, I'm on LinkedIn. Kelly, Kenan NSR is the is on there. I'm on Twitter. You can Kelly at brandstory experts, you want to send me an email, you know, our that's my company brandstory. So, mum available so you can get in touch with me any of those ways, man I appreciate.

Kyle Roed: 38:15

Absolutely. Likewise, thank you so much for spending some time with us the book again. Check it out. Everyone is an influencer, building a brand by engaging the people who matter most Kelly, it's been a wonderful conversation. Really appreciate the the energy and the work and in sharing some of your expertise with us today.

Kelly Keenan: 38:36

Awesome. Thank you, man. Thanks.

Kyle Roed: 38:39

All right. That does it for the rebel HR podcast. Big thank you to our guests. Follow us on Facebook at rebel HR podcast, Twitter, at rebel HR guy, or see our website at rebel human resources.com. The views and opinions expressed by rebel HR podcast are those the authors do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of any of the organizations that we represent. No animals were harmed during the filming of this podcast. Maybe