Episode 96: IN/ACTION: Rethinking the Path to Results with Jinny Uppal

Jinny Uppal: 0:00

In the book I talk about laziness and procrastination. These are another you know more two words that have a negative stigma. They're associated with bad behavior. But you can also think of procrastination as deciding when is the right time to act, not whether to act or not. Sometimes it's better to wait and watch the situation. Sometimes things sort themselves out.

Kyle Roed: 0:22

This is the rebel HR Podcast, the podcast where we talk to HR innovators about all things people leadership. If you're looking for places to find about new ways to think about the world of work, this is the podcast for you. Please subscribe, favorite podcast listening platform today, and leave us a review. Rebel on HR rebels. Hello, rebel HR listeners. Thanks for joining us this week very excited for our guest today we have Jenny who Paul, she is no stranger to driving contrary in innovative thinking. With 20 years of experience driving transformational growth by challenging norms in business is key to her success working with Fortune 500 Telecom, ecommerce, and retail companies. She has recently released a book called in action, rethinking the path to results. And she we are going to be talking a little bit about hustle culture, burnout, and why reflective thinking and strategic inaction is a better and healthier path to success. Welcome to the show.

Jinny Uppal: 1:30

Thank you so much for having me, Kyle.

Kyle Roed: 1:32

Well, I'm extremely excited for the conversation. And the the title of your book was really what caught my attention. And so before we hit record, I was we were kind of just discussing the podcast and and and discussing your book a little bit. And my question was, how do i pronounce your book? Because it's, it's like in Dash action. So. So how did you arrive at writing a book on inaction?

Jinny Uppal: 2:00

That's a great question. The title can throw people off. And it is partly by design. Usually, if somebody uses the word inaction, you tend to associate it with inertia or paralysis out of fear. What I'm talking about in the book is we, which is the collector, we we have gone too far in favor of acting without thinking. And we actually make more mistakes, because of our action bias than if we were to pause a little bit. And if we pause, then creative ideas come forth, we underestimate the power of a thoughtful pause. Strategic inaction simply means inaction out of choice, not inaction, out of fear. And that is what the book is about. It's about getting results, but trying a different route. As you pointed out, I have 20 years corporate experience, and I consider myself very action oriented. And I like being on the go. I never liked those downtimes in my career, if they ever happened, you know, in between major initiatives, I found myself in one such downtime during the pandemic. And Kyle as I was reflecting on my own life, it occurred to me that even though I have made pivots and big bold moves, which I could associate with, Hey, I took action, I did this. But before every big bold move, there was a period of what I would have called downtime. I don't like being in those phases. But I can now it made me question the correlation is it action that leads to progress are those moments of downtime, thoughtful pauses, I changed my mind needless to say, as I wrote the book, and the result is here for you to read.

Kyle Roed: 3:44

That's really fascinating. And and it is counterintuitive to what you know, us in the corporate world have really been brought up to think like, you know, the but but what you just described to me, what's interesting about it is it's not about doing nothing. It's about being intentional. Before you act, am I understanding that correctly?

Jinny Uppal: 4:10

Correct. It's about being thoughtful in your pauses being a bit strategic and choosing to think of the pause as an opportunity for inspired thought to come through. So it could be part of your strategy and a lot of people leaders I interviewed they actually have made it part of their, their corporate plan and their strategy. And they they attribute that to be the reason for their success, which is your right counterintuitive. It's hard to even talk about that I did nothing, which is why I was successful.

Kyle Roed: 4:39

I'm just thinking about this and and it's it's funny because I've you know, I'm reflecting on my career. And I remember I started my career in retail. So it was like, you know, there was never a free second. I mean, you were if you thought that you had a time to catch your breath customer needed something. So, you know, regardless of whatever, whatever role you're in, if the customer needed something you just dropped everything and helped in, but it was always like, it was always like your hair was on fire. And it wasn't until I was later in my career, and I was in a different role, when I realized how kind of destabilizing that was. And in the moment, you know, it's like, you think that you're doing the right thing? But you're actually just kind of swirling. Right? So so as you were writing the book, you know, I think one of the things that's really interesting is, you know, writing a book gives you an opportunity to really dive into these, these subjects and really in learn so as you were writing the book, what surprised you, what takeaways, maybe made you rethink your thesis?

Jinny Uppal: 5:57

That's a That's a good question. So I, my nature, my personality could be described as you know, go getter driven, determined. And whenever I run into a problem, my tendency is to double down, work harder, like go at it, like put more effort into it, not less. Writing a book, this is about 40,000 words, it's my first book, it is quite, quite a job. And it kind of goes on and on, or it feels that way. At the same time, writing a book is very deadline driven. And I wrote the book from start to finish in a year, which is, usually takes more than two years to write a book. So it was an interesting challenge for me to be as I was into, as I was interviewing people, and I was looking into research on why strategic inaction is helpful towards progress, I was trying some of the techniques I write about in the book, for example, taking a break, if I really run into a problem, instead of spending three hours trying to figure this out, you know, write that chapter out, I would take a walk, or I would give up do something else, which is totally opposite of what I would normally do. So I had to retrain myself to trust that if I stop and just walk away from it, I'll come up with better ideas, either within a few hours, the very next day, of course, it happened over and over again. But what was really challenging was like this muscle, like you said, we train ourselves to always be on the go, always be on and training ourselves takes a little bit of time, but not months or years. It's a very powerful D training exercise that I have to go through.

Kyle Roed: 7:43

Did training, I love that I love that term. That's better than like, you know, getting rid of bad habits. That sounds It's sounds very,

Jinny Uppal: 7:53

very, a lot of it is unlearning habits you have picked up. So yeah, you're right. I had never used that word before. And it just came up. I love trading market right after this podcast. But a lot of this is, this is not about acquiring a new habit or a new skill. It's about just going back to our basics of we know how to take a break. We know how to do it, we know our mind comes up with good ideas, we just don't give ourselves the chance.

Kyle Roed: 8:25

Absolutely, you know, it's it's really interesting. And this runs, you know, this theme seems to just continue to be inundated throughout our culture. And it's this theme of the whole hustle culture. And it's like, you know, if you're not, if you're not moving forward, you're moving back, you know, and and the minute you stop to take a breath, someone's gonna knock you over and take your spot. And I mean, that was, you know, go to business school, your force ranked against everybody in business school, if you're not above a certain, I mean, I'm just thinking about all of the ways that our culture truly puts this, you know, this action bias into our heads. And so yeah, I mean, to not do that almost feels destabilizing when you've been doing it for so long. And I think many people listening to this are probably sitting here thinking, yeah, you just described the COVID 19 pandemic for HR people, right, right. So what what tactics work when we are when we are kind of dealing with that with the that tumultuous drive to always move forward even if we have no idea what we're doing or you haven't really given any thought, what what tactics worked for you wish as you were working through that.

Jinny Uppal: 9:51

I'm going to talk about this one tactic that I came across which surprised me. If I say if I use the word mind wandering calm What comes up in your mind? What do you think of? Like, is that a good thing? Batching

Kyle Roed: 10:05

wandering? Yeah, my immediate reaction is daydreaming, daydreaming, like, like you're, you know, not doing anything productive. You're just off in la la land. Right, right.

Jinny Uppal: 10:18

It's a distracted mind. That's usually what one thinks off. And that's what I thought of as well. mind wandering means a distracted mind, which means I'm being unproductive. I'm not, I'm not producing anything. Interestingly, I came across research neuroscience research from a American psychologist, neuroscientists Scuse, me, Marcus Reiko going back 20 years. And he made an interesting observation that when our minds are not engaged in an activity, which means I'm working or reading news or listening to music, there are parts of the brain that fire up that I call default mode network. When the default mode network is active, the mind has a tendency to connect the dots on information it has been collecting all this time and come up with creative ideas. Think of the aha moments like you really been thinking hard about a problem may HR problem or a people problem. Giving your mind that break, literally 10 minutes, half an hour, whatever you can find, it connects the dots. Now, before I wrote the book, I was in a job, which was very high stress. And I remember I used to feel so burnt out during the day, that I remember my executive coach at that time saying, why don't you just leave the building, go away for half an hour, and then come back, I used to find it very difficult to do that. Because of you know, the habit like you're on the hamster wheel of just doing. I remember back then I used to do that occasionally, because I was not sure that's a good idea. But during writing the book, I started embracing that because now I have neuroscience to back it up. That is technique, the more again, counter intuitively as it sounds, the more stressed out you are, the more difficult the situation is, try giving yourself a half an hour break 10 minutes, if you can't find half an hour, but truly give yourself a break. Don't listen to music, even if it's relaxing, and see what that does to your mind.

Kyle Roed: 12:15

Yeah, I could use some of that advice. I'm one of those. So I'm, I'm a failed musician, but I love music. And so but so I always have something on the background, you know, and it's like, in when it when it's there's not something in the background, it's it's destabilized to the point that I have actually like a sound machine in my room. So that I can have you know, so that there's something going on in the background. But it's what's really interesting about what you've described is, to me, it almost sounds it sounds like it kind of the concept of of, you know, like, like meditation, right? Or like transcendental meditation where you get, you get to a point where your, your, your subconscious, or your unconscious mind actually helps solve problems because you're not, you're present, and you're letting your letting your mind actually work. Am I on the right track there?

Jinny Uppal: 13:12

Close? Yes, a lot of people find meditation intimidating, I have a meditation practice going back 2008. So I can swear by its benefits. But a lot of people I speak to they don't have it's not a habit. It's not it's still intimidating, and do my happy discovery, which is why I was like, oh, mind wandering always gets a bad rap. But in many ways, at a neuroscience level, both meditation and mind wandering, and I looked at a lot of studies, they do something at your brain level for it to start producing ideas so that you're not the one forcing yourself to come up with ideas. But it's just that we forgot how to give ourselves a break. Like when we were children, children are creative, you know, how they zone out, they stare into empty space, they are naturally meditative. You could argue when they're quiet when they are quiet like this.

Kyle Roed: 14:05

When Yeah, when is that? My kids aren't ever quiet. That's, you know, that's it's really interesting. And so and I so, you know, to get a little bit personal. So I have I've interviewed so many extremely talented, super smart people. And when we talk about things like stress management, what comes up time and time and time again, over the last 100 or so interviews has been meditation or listening to yourself or mindfulness or whatever you want to call it but there you know there is that, you know, there's something to that there has to be or so many smart people wouldn't be right we talking about it. And it's something that I actually so just I've been doing it now for 5055 days now, I think my little app has been tracking it, but I've been going through kind of going through that journey. Good February morning. And it's it was really hard at first. Uh huh. But I have found the my, the strength of my resolve in the decisions that I'm making now at work. Just because I have kind of that quiet moment of mindfulness at the beginning of the day. I'm just, I'm just better. I just make better decisions, and I don't go home is drained. Because I'm because I am more more present and aware. When I'm at home as well. So it, it is really interesting. It's almost like you rewire, retraining, rewiring, or D training, as he said, some of those bad habits. So

Jinny Uppal: 15:49

yeah, meditation is exactly unlearning. And the reason why meditation is hard is because you're sitting there doing nothing. And thoughts come up, and you kind of feel like that's a distraction, or maybe an itch on the body comes up, or suddenly you become aware of the sound that you don't know where it's coming from. And meditation in many ways, is the practice of being in observation, deep observation, and when that over a period of time you develop that muscle that knows how to be in deep observation and not react prematurely. And that's what my book is about is our tendencies to react prematurely in the, in the quest for control, because we want a result. Whereas if you just thought for a minute, a few minutes, or even a few seconds of silence in a conversation, I have a whole chapter on difficult conversations, negotiations, confrontations, where the tendency is to talk each other down just a few seconds of silence. And this isn't a bit of an abstract concept, but like you said, the proof is in the pudding. Once you try it, you see that it makes a difference, then you're going to want to try more of it.

Kyle Roed: 17:08

Absolutely, you know, I think what's so powerful about about this concept, and I'm just, I mean, there's so many situations, as an HR professional, where you feel like you need to fill the empty space, or you feel like you, you do want to have that it's like that quest for control, because you want a certain outcome. And sometimes that outcome that you want is, is not possible. Action some, sometimes you just have to sit with it, and and work through it and, and and be strategic about how you approach challenges. So, you know, I'm reflecting on some of those situations where you just, you know, mentioned, you know, conflict, you know, or, or very difficult conversations. So, I have a tendency to fill the space, you know, that's just, I'm an extrovert, I talk too much, you know, that's, that's, that's, that's my blind spot. Right? So for someone like me, going into that situation, how do I have an unintentional pause? And what you know, what does it take for someone that that gets uncomfortable with with empty space to reflect the power of inaction?

Jinny Uppal: 18:34

What you can think of these pauses as is an opportunity to collect more information and data. You're a professional I'm guessing people listening to us today are professionals, which means you have a job you have you are strategic, I'm guessing you are in the sense you manage teams or you do recruiting or which means you you have an illogical analytical mind. So, sometimes to people who are logical and analytical and I put myself in that category, even though I'm an introvert, you've got to give yourself a story of why a boss is important than the story you give yourself is the pause is an opportunity for me to collect more information. i In the book I talk about laziness and procrastination. These are another you know more two words that have a negative stigma they're associated with like bad behavior. But you can also think of procrastination as deciding when is the right time to act, not whether to act or not. Sometimes it's better to wait and watch the situation. Sometimes things sort themselves out so you can these are like more logical arguments you can give to yourself a few, you know, buying in the theory of inaction. Sometimes it is about getting more information waiting for the right information to come along.

Kyle Roed: 19:58

Oh, it took me a long time. I have to learn that I just, I used to, I remember that, you know, yeah, I grew up in that culture like, like, you have to do something you have to do, you have to be taking some action, or you are lazy, or you are a procrastinator, and those are all bad things and, or you're not being proactive enough, right? If you're not driving in action, but especially in an HR role, or, yeah, even even a manager role. Sometimes the best thing you can do is hurry up and wait for for something else to come to pass. And it's I don't know what it is whether it's, you know, serendipity or what but, but more often than not, when you when you just step away and let and just let the you know, whatever the situation unfold a little more, a lot of times the action that you were going to take and just jump in and roll your sleeves up, would have just completely mucked the whole thing up. And, you know, that's, that's definitely my, my experience, you know, I had a great mentor, early in my career, his name's Chase, I don't know if he's a listener or not, but Chase, if you're out there, you know who you are, buddy. And he told me this, when I was just starting out as an HR generalist. And he was like, don't, don't take an action until you absolutely have to. And this was in the context of, like, an investigation, right? Like, let's say that you're trying to figure out what's going on and make a good decision related to, you know, something that could result in someone losing their job, right. And, you know, initially, I'm like, This sounds like BS, I don't like this, right? Like this, this doesn't mess with with, with how I'm wired, you should always be ready to take action to move as quickly as possible. And he kind of explained to me Listen, your internal customers are always going to be pushing you to make a decision quickly. Now, I need to know now, your job is to be that neutral party that helps make sure that every buddy has an opportunity to understand the ripple effect of this decision. Right. And, and it took me a number of years of trying to force action before I figured out, oh, there is something to that. And maybe, maybe we do need to take a step back here. And and it is more important to get it right.

Jinny Uppal: 22:23

Especially with people decisions. We don't we don't know what's going on with other people, we only see a sliver of their behavior, especially at work. There is a story or share in the book, if I may. For about me as a manager in the early years of my career, I had just become manager and I got promoted to director about a year apart. So it all happened very quickly. But I just got people responsibility. And now I have, you know, two levels of people reporting and to me just within a year. And I was also transitioning to a role within the company. So I had been with the company for a while, but I was taking a new role for which I will be building a new team, I had inherited two people, out of which one, the decision was made by my new manager that in the name of org change, we are going to terminate this role because you're building a new team and we have new skills we need, which sounded good on paper. So I agreed. Within a couple of weeks, I realized the person whose job was being terminated actually had a severe performance and behavioral problem. And on the one hand, it was legit and legal to terminate her role because of our change. You know, there's something you know there's something wrong. When you haven't been truthful, you haven't given any feedback, clearly all that had happened. And I remember talking to my the person I was reporting into, and my HR partner, this is a performance problem. And they said, you know, the ship has sailed paperwork is already done, you're just joining this team, you just have to execute this is not your decision to make. Long story short, I went with it. You know, speed matters, like you said, retail e commerce. And I went with it. And of course, this person was very upset. And then we found out some things about her life situation financial situation, which was very distressing for me to find out that this person is going to lose their job. She left on very, very bad terms and you know, swore I'll never shop with you again, like we lost goodwill on that day. It taught me a lesson. My instinct was this is a performance problem. We weren't authentic to this person because it was truly if it was Malian or change and no performance problem, we could have found her another job. We weren't truthful. So this lesson taught me to be transparent, and to hold the fort as a no matter how much pressure I'm under to terminate. If the reasons aren't legitimate. I simply have to find I have to find the time away. To negotiate for success because this outcome is not good for us either. It doesn't reflect well on the company. So that was an interesting lesson. Thankfully, I learned early enough in my career that it changed my behavior after that.

Kyle Roed: 25:18

Thank you for sharing, you know, powerful, I think a powerful story that unfortunately many of us can probably relate to, in human resources where there is a there's a deliverable, right. And that deliverable means this person leaves this position, in some way, shape or form. Right. But yeah, if you do that, in a way that is that does not have integrity, and respect. It's the most miserable thing you'll ever do in your life, at least in my experience, and fortunately, yeah, I've only made that mistake. Once. Yeah. But early in my career, as well, right, similar situation. But, you know, had I had I taken the time to pause and think about this on a human level, as opposed to, you know, my superior told me, This person needs to go away, here's all the paperwork, execute. You know, I would have, I mean, I was having physical manifestations of stress up into, you know, I mean, there's a reason I have all these gray hairs. Because, because I wasn't, you know, I really wasn't true to myself, I wasn't true to the person that I knew I needed to be in the person that I knew my organization really needed me to be, right. Yeah, it's tough.

Jinny Uppal: 26:55

Yeah, and the point, I'm making the book that this isn't just about doing the right moral thing, or integrity, there's actually a direct correlation between taking the right action at the right time and results. So the book title is in action, rethinking the path to results, normally within action will lead me to results. In the same company. Almost immediately after this event, I hired a woman who was my first hire because I was building a team. And she was a wrong hire, like we didn't do a good job in interviews. Once again, the advice I got is that this is a six month probationary hire, which is which was the norm at that time. And once again, I was told you can terminate this person with no cause. So once again, speed is of essence, here is a mistake, which, of course, I made this mistake. But I can undo with no ramifications very quickly instead of going through the promise process. But I just learned my lesson with the other, the previous employee. And this time, I said, No, I'm going to be very candid, I'll support this person, we will go through the performance plan process, even if it takes months. And I was very candid with my direct the new direct report the person I'd hired. And in this case, because I was so committed to the new direct reports development, and I put out everything on transparently, this is what I can do, this is where I need you to pull your weight. This person the new person had hired actually opted out. In the sense she realized this is the job is not a good fit. Not only did she opt out and left with a severance, she recommended somebody for my team, whom I did interview and I hired, she switched her career, she became an executive coach, which is what she wanted to do. tinkle the results of this piece of action where I did not take the default route, I went through what could have been the longer route. But because I was recruiting a lot of people, this person sent me another person as a gift, it was taking me a very long time to recruit people, clearly we had made a mistake. So now I think of that's what helped me understand that this isn't just about doing the writing, of course, we should do the right thing. But very often people, you know, your interest, conflicts with reasoning. You can reason with people with each other, but sometimes your interest or, you know, your interest being negatively affected will trump any any moral argument. So the book and the examples in the stories I mentioned in the book are all about you get results, you get different results, perhaps better results. Don't underestimate the power of a thoughtful pause, you probably come up with a better idea.

Kyle Roed: 29:42

Well, I think about that too, because it's it's it's so fascinating. I'm just thinking, you know, my recruiter brain turns on here and I'm thinking okay, so you could have terminated that person then you would have had another open rack for however many months, but instead you that person self selected, so the compliance had on me goes oh, well, that reduces a lot. Risk, that's good. And then write the next the next step, they give you a referral, you end up hiring that person, you just saved yourself so much time by treating that person in the, you know, in a way that was congruent with with, with your experience. And and you know, had you not been thoughtful about that, you know, it would have actually taken longer most likely than it actually took you right. So yeah, for sure

Jinny Uppal: 30:24

I was struggling to read, we were all struggling, we were growing faster than we could hire for. So finding talent was really difficult in those days. So yes, this was such a wonderful gift. And because she knew the culture, she knew exactly what she was walking away from. She was she had, she had customized the person. And that person, the person I hired the referral I hired, not only stayed, joined and stayed for six years almost and grew to senior roles. So it was a win win win, I would say,

Kyle Roed: 30:59

perfect. So I did want to touch on one more topic. And I think we're especially seeing this right now, in our workplaces. But as HR people, a lot of times we are kind of, you know, the support resource within our organization for people who are struggling. And I just I've seen so many people who are caught up in that hustle mindset. And getting to a point of burnout where, you know, I've had conversations with a number of, of, of people, you know, all over that are just like this close to crashing and burning because they are just burning the candle at both ends. So, so what what steps can we take as we are trying to help our employees understand this concept? And just take a break?

Jinny Uppal: 31:49

That's such a fascinating question, Kyle. And I'm hearing a lot about HR leaders trying to organize events, inspired by the idea of taking a break or to lighten up the mode. Here's what, here's what I think how an individual can take an effective break depends on the individual as much as you can organize general data debts or breaks. I think it's a good idea to encourage and remind people that your mental health is in your hands and only you know how to take care of yourself much more than we do. What this means is if you need to take a break on a Wednesday, because you're feeling whatever you're feeling, then negotiate that in the sense of power and remind remind employees that you're not as helpless as you it might feel right now. And also the power of short breaks. I am a hiker of many years. And I don't know why it took me so long to realize to to find this analogy in my hiking. The longer my hike is, I realize I've got to take frequent and short breaks, it helps me go longer. And the more uphill the client base, the more frequent my breaks become. If I don't take frequent and short breaks in an you know, endurance hike or uphill hike, then either I'll be exhausted at the end of the day, or it'll take me days to recover because I'll be sore. So the harder your life is as completely counterintuitive as it sounds, to some extent, we will not be able to put an end to 10 hour work days, it may happen occasionally, you just have longer hours because of some project that has to go live. So don't wait for the weekend to take a break or your vacation to take a break. Take a 10 minute break, go for a walk, sit and stare into empty space. These and these things you can lay the employee and everybody can control better than scheduling big, you know events. Not that they are not important. But just reminding people, shorter breaks, more frequent breaks, and you're in charge of your mental health.

Kyle Roed: 34:09

I love that. So what I heard was the you know, the trust falls and that kind of thing, you know, maybe maybe isn't gonna take care of it for you, HR people. I think I think you're very, very powerful. Great topic. I think it's it's just fascinating to think about it and somebody who I would say is a reformed you know, hustle, culture kind of guy. You know, for me, it's really hitting home on some of these topics that you know, if you do get intentional about taking enough space and brakes and allowing, allowing things to unfold in the time that's available. You know, to me, sometimes that's the best thing that you can do, the best action you can take is no action. So really appreciate the content. We are going to shift gears right now. And go into the rebel HR flash round. Are you ready?

Jinny Uppal: 35:17

I am i right?

Kyle Roed: 35:19

Okay, here we go. Question number one, what is your favorite people book.

Jinny Uppal: 35:25

When I started writing my book, early 2021, a new another book came out by author Adam Grant, whom I like and follow a lot. And his newest book is called Think again. And the title itself is so compatible with what I'm talking about, right? Again, that you think you think your action is what is making your world go around, think again. Many of his views are very compatible with mine, and I got in touch with him and I exchanged email, I wanted his input on the book. So I most social psychology books are fascinating to me, because they helped me understand how our minds work. And my book is more in that genre than anything. So think again.

Kyle Roed: 36:09

I love that. Yeah. Adam Grant has so much great content out there had an opportunity to see him live back when that was a thing. And yeah, great, great. Great thinker. In Yeah, that's think against a great book. I'm, I'm with you. I think that anything that teaches us how the brain works, especially when we're in the people business, most of most of our interactions are with others. And, you know, if you're if you deal with people on a regular basis, why would you not learn how that the the hardware works? Right, like, like, that's what actually makes people tick. Right. So yeah, I agree. All right. Question number two, who should we be listening to?

Jinny Uppal: 36:56

Right now, we are bombarded with so many experts and influencers giving us advice I tell you nowadays, I am not listening to very many people. I'm really trying to listen to myself, I and I strongly encourage don't underestimate the power of your own wisdom. Just give it time to surface.

Kyle Roed: 37:19

Love that. Well said. Alright, last question. How can our listeners connect with you?

Jinny Uppal: 37:24

So my website is Jeannie apol.com jinyuppl.com. And there is a way to contact me. They can also DM me on LinkedIn, Twitter. My book is available now everywhere people buy books online. So and I love listening to people I really would love to hear you know, whoever heard the podcast today? What resonates or what does not resonate. So there's a way to contact me on my website or DME anywhere.

Kyle Roed: 37:51

Perfect, and we will have all that information in the show notes. So so click in there, check it out, get connected, follow Ginny. The book is in action, rethinking the path to results available everywhere. So thank you so much for spending a few minutes with us and helping us rethink our hustle culture.

Jinny Uppal: 38:12

Thanks, Jenny. Thank you for having me, Kyle.

Kyle Roed: 38:16

All right. That does it for the rebel HR podcast. Big thank you to our guests. Follow us on Facebook at rebel HR podcast, Twitter, at rebel HR guy, or see our website at rebel human resources.com. The views and opinions expressed by rebel HR podcast are those the authors do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of any of the organizations that we represent. No animals were harmed during the filming of this podcast. Maybe