Rebel Human Resources Podcast

Episode 104: All Are Welcome with Cynthia Owyoung

June 14, 2022 Kyle Roed, The HR Guy Season 3 Episode 104
Rebel Human Resources Podcast
Episode 104: All Are Welcome with Cynthia Owyoung
Show Notes Transcript

Owyoung has established and led diversity, equity and inclusion initiatives in multiple industries, including Charles Schwab, GitHub, and Yahoo!. She has been recognized for her influence and thought leadership by Entrepreneur Magazine as 2021’s 100 Women of Impact.

Studies prove that companies with more diversity in their ranks are more innovative, expand their markets, and perform better financially. Why, then, has so little progress been made, especially when it comes to corporate leadership? Because most companies have yet to develop and implement effective diversity, equity, inclusion, and belonging (DEIB) initiatives. And the ones that have too often focus mainly on hiring a diversity of staff or rolling out unconscious bias training without improving results. 

DEIB expert Cynthia Owyoung has spent more than two decades working in this space. She’s seen it all, and she knows what works―and what doesn’t.

 In All Are Welcome, Owyoung delivers the information and insights you need to make DEIB a key element of your company culture. You’ll learn how to:

•Break old habits that keep DEIB efforts from moving forward
•Retain talent from underrepresented groups
•Conduct an audit of the state of DEIB at your company today
•Engage and excite leaders and managers around DEIB efforts
•Weave DEIB into all your talent pool management methods
•Uplevel employee resource groups to effectively support business goals
•Measure your progress with qualitative and quantitative data
•Connect your DEIB efforts to driving better business results

With All Are Welcome, you have everything you need to build a workforce and a company designed to compete in the twenty-first century while doing your part to make the world a better place to live―and work. 

Rebel HR is a podcast for HR professionals and leaders of people who are ready to make some disruption in the world of work.

We'll be discussing topics that are disruptive to the world of work and talk about new and different ways to approach solving those problems.

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Cynthia Owyoung:

What does attendance of your trainings look like? Especially if there are trainings that aren't necessarily like job skill training, but more like interpersonal and communication training like things that you know, that are indicators of how engaged people are to improve right at your company? Those are all I think indicators of how engaged employees are.

Kyle Roed:

This is the rebel HR Podcast, the podcast where we talk to HR innovators about all things people leadership. If you're looking for places to find about new ways to think about the world of work, this is the podcast for you. Please subscribe, favorite podcast listening platform today. And leave us a review. Rebel on HR rebels. All right, rebel HR listeners really excited for the conversation this week. Thank you for joining us. I am here with Molly badass, our intrepid co host and today we are talking with Cynthia Woo Young. She is Robin Hood's vice president of inclusion, equity and belonging, partnering with business leaders, employee resource groups and the people experience team to support Robin Hood mission to democratize finance for all. She is also the founder of breaking glass forums, developing strategies to accelerate diverse leadership and inclusive organizations. She's led multiple initiatives for diversity, equity and inclusion over 15 years as an executive in multiple organizations. And she is the author of the book, all are welcome, how to build a real workplace culture of inclusion that delivers results out at bookstores everywhere. Welcome to the show, Cynthia.

Cynthia Owyoung:

Thanks so much for having me, Kyle. And Molly, I'm glad to be here.

Kyle Roed:

Well, we are extremely excited to have you here. You know, I'll be honest, as I was prepping for this interview, I just get got more and more excited to to meet you. And to learn. The the book is wonderful. And I think there's just so much that our listeners can take away from this as we try to change the face of human resources and the organizations that we support. So I want to start off by understanding what got you interested in the world of diversity, equity and inclusion?

Cynthia Owyoung:

Great question, Kyle. So to talk about my why, like, I have to share, like my personal story in this space, right, because most people who come who go into dei work, it tends to come from a very personal place, and I'm no exception. So my parents are immigrants. I am a first generation born here in America. I am Asian by background, I'm also a woman, obviously, for those of you who might be listening. And I have a brother who is developmentally disabled, and another brother who is gay. And we grew up in a primarily African American neighborhood. And my parents were kind of like, lower middle class. Over time, although when they came here, they came here really with nothing. So you know, I've got all of these different dimensions of diversity that I've, they've just been part of my life, right since the beginning. And that have given me this very sharpened empathy for different lived experiences and a desire to always correct for social injustice wherever I see it. Now, I didn't actually do that in my initial career, like I went into marketing. First, because I've always been curious about what motivates people. And I thought, you know, that's a great way to apply that in a way that's going to be sort of, you know, sustainable for me. But then I realized after about 10 years of that, that I wasn't super personally fulfilled by that work, right. I mean, I was just selling, you know, widgets to people who maybe didn't necessarily need it. And I thought, well, there's got to be something more to work and my purpose, right in life and, and so I went back to school thinking I was going to start a nonprofit, and instead came across a diversity management class. And that's when the first light bulb went off, that I could meld sort of my personal background with an actual career. Right. And, and so, you know, I remember this external speaker who was doing diversity management at Toyota came in to talk about the work that she did, and I was like, Oh my gosh, how do I do that? Like you help people create access to opportunities and helping them thrive and grow no matter what their backgrounds are, like, you know, I've been in the middle of looking for a job for my disabled brother for like three years and not having very much luck in it. I want to make that easier for people, right. I want to be the one that opens the doors as opposed to you know, the other side. I have it where I'm knocking on. So that's what started me down the path and where why I do the work now 20 years later still.

Kyle Roed:

That's amazing. And thank you so much for, for sharing that story and kind of, you know, being vulnerable in that space, I think, you know, really powerful to hear, you know, the context that you that you come from, and that you you look at this work. And so as you think about, you know, D, I think it's one of those things that, you know, there's been a lot of focus on it over the last few years, of course, right and for, for good reason with some of the things that are happening in our society. But you've obviously been doing this work a lot longer than that. And so as you approach the role that you play as a as a senior executive, who is overseeing the DEI journey of an organization, how do you make sure that this is more than a passing focus? And how do you truly ensure that this gets inter woven into kind of the fabric of an organization's culture?

Cynthia Owyoung:

Yeah, that is the million dollar question. I think, you know, we're all in this space of the AI really trying to figure that out even now, in different ways than when I started right, 20 years ago. But still, I think, you know, the answer isn't as easy as just like, you know, what you hear some people say out there just hire more people from diverse backgrounds, right? If it were that easy, we would all be doing it and we wouldn't have the feel. And so, you know, I think that really integrated integrating the work into business process and purpose and strategies of an organization are really integral to being able to drive more incremental progress in this space. And what I mean by that was, like, you know, when I started, it used to be very much a compliance function, right? It used to be like affirmative action was how we treated diversity and inclusion. Because the government required us to do something in terms of making some effort towards driving Equity, and Diversity inside our organizations. And then it necessarily evolved from that to you know, diversity, equity inclusion being more of like a reason for creativity and innovation, right? Because you saw all these great research studies that talked about how more diverse teams are more creative and innovative. Before I think it evolved from there into much more sort of transparency and accountability, like you think back to 2014, when Google first released their demographic numbers and, and that caused, like this huge ripple effect across the industry, not just in tech, but across many other industries to start releasing their numbers and being transparent and accountable to the public. And employees and customers and shareholders write about their efforts and what they were doing. And if they were even making a dent in their numbers moving forward. So that, you know, I think now it's much more about even though we've had that level of transparency, we haven't seen many of those numbers shift significantly, right. And so now, like, I think the focus is really much more around business strategy and performance and how, you know, we can redefine organizations, and success and effectiveness of those organizations as being directly tied to their ability to attract, retain, develop more diversity, better serve diverse customers, better drive innovation, and financial performance, all of those things are tied to dei work. And I think there's now more of an acknowledgement of that in the space and why this needs to be really integrated into all aspects of what businesses do.

Kyle Roed:

100% and not to give anything away, but in the book, there are a lot of really actionable strategies and thought provoking topics to to start to uncover those questions. So I'd encourage you know, if you get a chance to pick up the book, all are welcome. There's there's just some great content in there for an HR practitioner trying to work through work through this, this challenge. One thing I want to talk about that I'm just I'm curious to get your perspective on this. So, you know, one of the things I've learned as I've very much a novice and kind of a Constant Learner in the DEI space is, language really matters. The words that you use really matter and you can't be flippant with With, with how you say things. And so I wanted to ask a little bit about, you know, your focus that is broader than Dei, it, there's a B, its diversity, equity, inclusion and belonging. So as you label it, D ay b, what is the what is your reason why on putting the B in there? What is the belonging mean to you?

Cynthia Owyoung:

Yeah, there's a great analogy around sort of the different definitions of each of those terms, right? That if anyone follows Vernay Meyers, who's the VP of inclusion strategy at Netflix, she has this brilliant TED talk out there. That talks about how we move towards diversity as opposed to away from it. And in it, she defines diversity and inclusion using sort of a party analogy, right, she uses diversity is being invited to the party and inclusion is being asked to dance. Now, I like to take that analogy a little bit further. And add in that equity is about giving people dance lessons, if they need it, at that party. And belonging is knowing all the songs, right. And so you know, by you have to think about adding in those two dimensions. And belonging is so important, because it's one thing to bring that diversity into your organization. And quite another thing to leverage that diversity to its fullest potential, which is really that inclusion piece of it. But if people aren't feeling like they're in a place that they're connected to the people, your team's you know, that they can really be their full, authentic selves, then that is not going to drive retention, right? Like you have to not just bring diversity into your organization, you have to incentivize it to want to stay. Right. And that's where the belonging piece really comes in. Lots of good research out there also shows that belonging is one of those key drivers for engagement at a company and retention as a result. And so there's lots of like good reasons, just concrete reasons around why people need to, to really create that sense of connection and belonging for employees within their organizations, because it will help your bottom line, frankly, but it also helps people to feel like they have a place in this world in your company, right that they want to be in. And, and I think that's what leads to higher productivity as a result.

Molly Burdess:

Your expansion of that analogy is spot on. Perfect.

Cynthia Owyoung:

Thank you for that, Molly.

Molly Burdess:

So one thing, you know, engagement is a is a big word that we talk a lot about. And of course, everyone does engagement surveys. But what other ways can we evaluate engagement within our organization specifically with DNI?

Cynthia Owyoung:

So beyond surveys, right, I think that, you know, it, there's nothing better than actually getting out there and talking to your employees, right to understand what their experiences are truly within the organization, because numbers will give you sort of like one view into that. But I think if you aren't getting like the stories that live underneath that, then you're sort of you're missing some of those intangible qualities that may need to be addressed. Right. So I think it's important to like, you know, either talk to your, you know, some, you can do things like inclusion roundtables, as an example, right, like within your organization, where you talk to people just about, like, what is their experience around diversity and inclusion? How do they perceive it at the organization that will tell you a lot about what, you know, your strengths are, like things that you want to maintain, but also where you might have opportunities to improve? Right? And I think, you know, kind of, if you're if you have employee resource groups, right, those employee driven communities that are gathered around a certain characteristic, right, so very often, companies will have these ERGs built around whether you are a women, a woman or if you are black or Latino, or LGBTQ as an example, right, like getting out and talking to the people who are in those communities, part of those ERGs can also give you a really rich source of feedback around the experiences that that they're having and whether they're, like truly engaged or not, right. So you know, I think it's important to do have quantitative, right, like do the surveys and do all the great analysis around that, but to also supplement that with your qualitative information, and then to look at your other metrics, because those are all indicators of engagement too, right? If you're looking at like your attrition metrics, that's a really good indicator if you're if your people are engaged or not, if they're, you know, if you see them leaving, and then what are their exit survey results telling you? Right, in terms of why they left? And, again, what are the comments there? And how do you get underneath that? And, you know, I think that there are other things that you can look at that are a little bit more I guess, you know, unique to your company. So good example, many companies will have, like, frequent all hands, right? Lots of tech companies have them weekly, other companies might have the monthly or quarterly, like, what's the attendance at those look like? Right? What does attendance of your trainings look like? Right, especially if there are trainings that aren't necessarily like job skill training, but more like interpersonal and communication training? Like, are things that you know, that are indicators of how engaged people are to improve? Right at your company? Like those are all I think, indicators of how engaged employees are?

Molly Burdess:

Absolutely. You know, and in my experience, I think some of the leaders, a lot of the leaders are afraid to have those conversations and maybe not afraid isn't the right word, but uncomfortable, specifically like verbiage like, Okay, how do I approach this, you know, as a white male or white female? Like, how do I have those conversations? Like, what do I start with? What do I say? What advice would you have for those leaders that are just like, I want to do this? I know, I need to do this, but I don't know how.

Cynthia Owyoung:

Oh, there's like, to me, there's like a few key things that that you have to do. I think one is just get educated. The more educated we are the knowledgeable about a subject, the more confident we are in being able to talk about that. Right. So you know, going back to Kyle's earlier comments about inclusive language, I think it's really important for people that just like, use this amazing tool called the internet to look at like, okay, what are the different perspectives around different terminologies that are used in this space? You know, very often we're just afraid to even ask, like, how do you want to be addressed? Right? And what's the proper way to refer to this community over that community? I think, you know, lots of times people ask me things like, okay, you know, should I refer to, you know, the black community as being Black or African American? Right? And what's the difference between the two? And I'm like, hey, you know, and I can share that with you. Right? It's, you can also ask, like, you know, people who are in the black ERG, but you know, you can also just look it up, like, there's lots of resources online to be able to find answers to those questions. And granted, some of those answers might be conflicting, right? Because I think about like the, the disability community and how there's a very vocal segment of that population that wants to be identified as disabled. And there's also an equally vocal segment of that population that doesn't want to be identified. And so you, you get into this, like, you know, paralysis, when you're like, Okay, well, which one do I use? And the best advice I give people is to ask, you know, like, ask when you're engaging with people in that community to ask them how they want to be referred to what's the best terminology to use, because there is no one size fits all. And you have to be mindful that there are lots of different considerations across a lot of these and, and yes, we can use sort of the most commonly current terms, then their space. But again, it always comes down to the individual and being mindful of their perspective. So so that's one thing, right? Just get educated to I think, you know, just like take the initiative to ask. And then three, I think practice, like any new skill set, right, we all are going to be uncomfortable learning something new. Like when we're learning how to walk, we fell on our faces, right? When you're learning how to manage for the first time, you're not going to do everything right, and just accept that there's going to be imperfection. And, you know, find a safe space where if you're going to have like one a broach a difficult subject that you feel like you can get the feedback you need to really do that. Don't let the first time that you know you're engaging with somebody on the topic of racism and anti racism, right? Like maybe practice that with somebody who you feel like can give you good feedback on or is a safe space to ask the They're really deep questions that you want to have you want to ask, right. But I think it's imperative to like, you know, again, get comfortable and to to get comfortable, you have to do the things that underlie that to give you the confidence to be able to speak to something. And that involves education, asking and practice.

Kyle Roed:

Absolutely, you know, I think it's such great advice. And, you know, from my standpoint, as a, as a white man, and in the Midwest, in the United States of America, you know, I, I'm as ignorant as they come to these things. And when I started in this journey, and I was relatively new in the Human Resources space, it quickly became apparent that I had an obligation to learn these things, if I wanted to be a good people leader. Because I was dealing with some of these topics in a, in a lot of times in a way that I was trying to mitigate conflict or, or help somebody who had a concern related to, you know, D IB. And, you know, if you don't take the time, and you don't, and you are honest with yourself about what you don't know, you know, you're really going to struggle. And yeah, I think it's, I think those are, those are great, great topics, I think the challenge is, it's easier to not do that, it's more comfortable to not do that, right. And that's where that's where the risk of inaction comes from. And so I want to shift gears and I want to, I want to get your perspective, you know, you've you've been in this space for over two decades. And I do think that we've come a long way as a society realizing how critical this is to, you know, the business and that this is really a business imperative. But we've seen, maybe some hiring initiatives, maybe some initiatives around, you know, unconscious bias training, you know, people change their logos to be rainbow colored during, you know, Pride Week. But I still feel like there's so much progress that can be made. And so for those organizations that are sitting here thinking, Okay, we know, we need to do better. We know we need to do more, you know, where would you start? You know, what, what would your recommendation be for an HR leader who's trying to start to enact some of this more cultural change, and just kind of just be a catalyst for some of these things happening?

Cynthia Owyoung:

I think that it all depends on kind of where you're at in your organization, right? And really assessing that. So I always tell people to start first with, like, a sort of a culture audit, if you will, right? Look at your numbers, look at your data, do the go out and talk to people that I we talked about earlier, right? Really understand kind of how that meshes with your business priorities and where your business is at today. That's really important to kind of figure out, Okay, what's the first like, what's the what's the next step that I have to do that's going to be meaningful in this space? Right? Because, you know, if you're talking to enough employees, you're gonna get their perception of whether or not they think your commitment is real or performative. Right? If you, you know, putting that rainbow flag on your logo is enough. Or they want more, which generally most people do. And understand kind of what they'll see as meaningful, right? So, I think that, you know, there's, there's places where as, as just sort of a high level, general example, in the aftermath to George Floyd's murder in 2020, right, that was an event that really galvanized a lot of companies to come out and say, you know, we're really committed to racial equity in the workplace, where you're doing all of these things to support it, and, you know, we're going to be held accountable to these commitments. And yet, some of the things that they did, you know, you would see companies that maybe donated like, huge numbers, you know, 10s to hundreds of millions of dollars to external organizations that are working towards racial racial equity, and that is great, but then their employees were like, well, what are you doing for us internally? Right, like, we don't even have like a dedicated dei professional inside the company. And yet, you're gonna get you're gonna find all of these external things. Right. So, you know, I think when you need to be able to identify those kinds of disconnects, right, and hopefully, you know, mitigate them before they happen, right. So, you know, looking at some of the best practices and triangulating that with, you know, sort of your business priorities and that assessment of your data, and where you're at today to kind of figure out what is that like best, most meaningful action, right to take, and they don't have to be big, right, they can just be really small things like I'm a big fan of incremental change, because if you do enough small things, they will add up to a really big thing, right. And so it could be things as simple as like changing your email signatures to include your pronouns, which can go really far in terms of indicating that you're supportive of the LGBTQ community, and you're not going to make people assume what pronouns you use, right. Which, by the way, has huge benefits for people who have gender neutral names, as well as you know, people who maybe aren't from our culture and have names that are just unfamiliar, right, from a gender eyes perspective. So, you know, lots of benefit there. And it's a really small thing that anybody can do today. Right, versus, you know, I am an as an HR professional, I've like looked at all this information, I put together strategy. And one of the key priorities for our organization is that we're going to hire like 100 people in the next year. And so I might see that as like a huge opportunity to be able to shift the needle. So I'm going to really focus on how we hire, and I'm going to start with something as simple as a job description. And what are the requirements that we're asking for in our job description? And are they truly reflective of the job that we're asking people to do? Or are they nice to have? Right? And what language Am I using in that? And so, you know, I think people can go through this process of understanding like, what's going to be meaningful? What's going to be incremental? How does this align to the bigger broader changes that I'm trying to do to help make this business successful? And I think that's the process people need to go through to be able to take this like, what is that first next step?

Kyle Roed:

Absolutely. I love that approach. And I think it's, it's, it's, first of all, you have to know how you're doing right. And I love the term you use, you can have a culture audit. And I mean, we're HR people. We love audits, right? I mean, that's just, that's how most of us are wired. Now, you know, okay, that's, I love audits, I guess, maybe I'm unique. But you know, that I think, especially for somebody who's not, you know, maybe this isn't their full time job, maybe they're at a smaller organization where there's not, you know, a dei professional position available. You know, just just doing an audit, and there's some out there. And if anybody would like one, send me an email, I've got a couple that I've used in the past that are wonderful, or pick up the book. And I'm sure you can do a little bit of a self audit with the book. But then I love what what you said next, which was that it needs to match with your business priorities. And then you mentioned that the kind of incremental piece and so and I want to highlight that, because I thought that was so powerful. And it was the fact that you, your logic was, let's find an area of the business that we know is changing, ie I need to hire 100 people. And then let's go in here, and let's make some incremental improvements in hiring, knowing that that kind of that compounding effect, that ripple effect will be very large, as opposed to somebody, you know, sending a bunch of, you know, emails, demanding that people change their actions. Right. You know, I just think that that's, that's such a smart way to go about it. And I just think, very powerful examples. Thank you for sharing that.

Cynthia Owyoung:

Thank you for pointing that out. And you know, I mean, you're right, like, I'm a big believer in systemic change, right. And so that comes down to looking at how do your processes work to either include, or potentially exclude people, either from the conversation are from, you know, advancing within your company, right. And they, you can apply that to so many different places? Because for me, it's about floating all boats. Right? And the best way to do that is to look at like, what are what is the, the impact of how you do things right across the board, as opposed to just saying, oh, like, we're just going to have like a gender initiative, as as an example, which I think sometimes can be very necessary. But if you're only focused on like, Oh, like this, like women in leadership Advancement Program, and you're not focused on sort of the underlying reasons that are driving the need for that program in the first place, then you are missing an opportunity to drive change on a real level. Right? And then that's, you know, that's part of the title of the book, right? How do you drive that that real workplace culture of inclusion, so that you can get the results that you're trying to achieve?

Molly Burdess:

Yeah, and that's kind of where my head was going. And maybe I've been thinking about this the wrong way, but I look Got a lot of organizations, leadership teams, and there is not a lot of diversity on those teams. So it's like, Okay, does does that have to change before there can be real change made in the organization? Or am I thinking of that wrong? And I need to take the incremental bottom up approach?

Cynthia Owyoung:

Great question, Molly. Excuse me. So I think that it's not wrong. Right. I think it's a necessary ingredient. It's just not the only one. And it's also not necessarily the place that you have to start. Right? So I think that, you know, yes, we all want to see more diversity in leadership. And we've all seen the stats that say that there isn't enough there. And so we should be working on it and understanding okay, like, how are we hiring at that level? What are we looking for? What, what potentially artificial limitations are we putting on ourselves when we look for the right talent at that level, right? And I say potentially artificial, because lots of times people will say, Oh, well, I need somebody who's got 20 years of experience in my industry, in order to do this job, right, when, you know, sometimes actually, you you don't really need somebody with 20 years experience in that industry. Because if you do, then you're you know, historically, then you're going to hire more of the same, right. And if you truly want diversity, then you're going to have to look at, okay, what you know, maybe there's an adjacent industry, that works just as well, right. But I can get people with experience in or maybe I don't need the 20 years of experience, right, maybe I only need 15 or, you know, a different kind of experience, or it's the skill sets that I need, right. But being able to go through that questioning my own status quo process becomes really important to being able to open up your lens to talent that might not fit this, like traditional vision of leadership talent that that we think we need at a company. So so that's kind of like one one thing that has to happen. But I like say that it doesn't have to happen first, because you can actually drive a lot of change at the grassroots, if you have that as a goal in mind, too. Right? So a good example is companies that have been around for like 100 years, or even 50, right? If you look at like your diversity numbers over time, especially from a race and gender standpoint, because that's mostly what people have measured, right, from a long time ago, you can see that, you know, their numbers maybe haven't shifted that much 20 years ago versus now. Right. And if that's the case, then I would say that, you know, it's because you haven't invested in that long term vision to change your leadership pitch over time. Right? If you if you are seeing those same numbers, then you're not advancing people from those underrepresented pools, and you're not investing in them, right to get the development opportunities, they need to be able to become your future leaders. So it's, it's really necessary to kind of look at what you're doing for, you know, people who are lower level in your organization to develop the skill sets that you need for the future, right. And I think that's where a lot of like that grassroots work can also come in, because ERGs play a huge role in being able to develop people, particularly from underrepresented groups. And if we don't value them and see them in that light, then we're also missing that opportunity.

Kyle Roed:

Absolutely. I think your book, you know, you do a nice job. And the way you describe it, it's weaving the de EIB into your talent pool management methods, right? And actually, like, like you've said a couple of times, it's about the system, right? It's, it's about, you know, actually building those developmental pipelines in a way that that supports these efforts. You know, as opposed to having a token, you know, diverse hire. Because I've made that mistake before. Just hiring diversity doesn't work unless you've got the cultural underpinnings to support that, right? Otherwise, it is just a it's just a gesture. It's not really systemic or change worthy. So what this has been a wonderful conversation, and I think we could probably go for another two or three hours and just completely soak up all the knowledge we can get from you, Cynthia, but I know that you are extremely busy, and I want to be mindful of your time. So we're going to shift gears and we're going to go into the flash round. So are you ready?

Cynthia Owyoung:

All right, fun time.

Kyle Roed:

We go. Question number one, what is your favorite people book?

Cynthia Owyoung:

Oh, yes. So you know, the the obvious answer is my book. But I'll also give you a more unconventional one, which is, there's a book called working out loud and I can't remember the author's name but that was transformational for me and my own personal HR career. When I read that because I, you know, I didn't think of myself as as being somebody who needed to promote themselves right at work. But what I've learned over time, is that, you know, we're all we all need to be marketers of ourselves and our work right in order to advance and to drive the change that we want to see. Right. So I work reading that book really helped me to understand how I could do that better in a way that felt authentic to me. So I recommend it to everyone.

Kyle Roed:

Love that working out loud. must check that one out. Question number two, who should we be listening to?

Cynthia Owyoung:

I don't know unnecessarily that I have like a favorite sort of podcast to recommend or something in that space? I do. I do think that the one that I find really fascinating, that gives me a different perspective on things that is very often missed is Freakonomics. So the Freakonomics podcast is really cool. Because if you think about diversity in particular, like it has a diversity of ideas and perspectives and make you think about problems in a very different way. So I really appreciate that. And I think people always need to expand their apertures. And that's a good way to do that. If you listen to that podcast.

Kyle Roed:

I love that. And I've read all those books. And I just started, I just reread freakanomics, because I read it like, I don't know, 1015 years ago, and I'm like, I feel like I forgot a bunch of the great stuff that was in that book, and picked it up. And it was just as good as I as I remember it, but it's just it is. It is a systems thinking. Method. It's yeah, and some of the things they talked about are really, really like borderline like offensive and emotional if you take it in the wrong light. But really interesting. Like it's just like statistical analysis. Yeah, yeah, I agree. It's a great way to expand your mindset. All right. Last question here hard hitting question. How can I listeners connect with you?

Cynthia Owyoung:

Through all the traditional platforms, so I'm on LinkedIn, you can find me on Twitter at Cindy? Oh, yeah, I'm on Facebook with breaking glass forums, which is my consultancy, that that I have to support the book. And, you know, my website, Cynthia Oh, young.com is another way to get connected to all of those things in one place.

Kyle Roed:

Absolutely. And we will have all that information in the show notes. The book, again, is all are welcome, how to build a real workplace culture of inclusion that delivers results. So Cynthia, thank you so much for joining us, and just for sharing some of the knowledge and for putting in the work to write this book. Just really appreciate you spending some time with us and with our listeners today. Thank you.

Cynthia Owyoung:

Thank you. It's been great. I've enjoyed the conversation. And I very much appreciate the perspective that you all share.

Kyle Roed:

Thank you very much. Have a great rest of your day. All right. That does it for the rebel HR podcast. Thank you to our guests. Follow us on Facebook at rebel HR podcast, Twitter, at rebel HR guy, or see our website at rebel human resources.com. The views and opinions expressed by rebel HR podcaster is the author's and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of any of the organizations that no animals were harmed during the filming of this podcast. Maybe