In the current business environment, growing and scaling your business to new heights has become increasingly challenging. With the rise of technology and new work environment expectations, clarity is key. It's critical for your business to attract and retain high-caliber talent, produce effectively and efficiently, and stay prepared for the challenges ahead.
Meet Lizabeth Wesely-Casella, the Founder and CEO of L-12 Services LLC. A skilled strategic advisor who specializes in increased efficiency and effectiveness, Lizabeth uses her communication, collaboration, and LEAN process design skills to identify where businesses can overcome challenges related to scaling, process breakdown, workflow management, and staff delight.
Lizabeth Wesely-Casella is the Founder and CEO of L-12 Services LLC, a firm specializing in internal communications, operational excellence, and training focused on workflow, processes, and culture.
She is a skilled strategic advisor who helps businesses increase efficiency and effectiveness by providing solutions that foster increased productivity, higher employee satisfaction, and reduced delivery times. Her work has driven successful outcomes for organizations that last for years, including talent retention, client re-acquisition, and streamlined processes that save time and increase revenue.
Lizabeth’s work has contributed to successful project outcomes in federal health policy, international program development, and non-profit grassroots management. The L-12 Services client list spans a wide variety of industries, including NGOs, educational programs, technology, and civilian-military lead organizations.
In 2014 Lizabeth organized and led the process and communication change coalition supporting program implementation related to First Lady Michelle Obama’s signature program, Let’s Move!.
Using LEAN process improvement and her collaborative nature, Lizabeth calls on her vast range of experience to pass along insights in areas such as change management, process improvement, internal communications training, and policy development.
Lizabeth holds a BS in business administration and a master's certificate in LEAN Six Sigma.
Rebel HR is a podcast for HR professionals and leaders of people who are ready to make some disruption in the world of work.
We'll be discussing topics that are disruAll Business. No Boundaries.
Rebel HR is a podcast for HR professionals and leaders of people who are ready to make some disruption in the world of work. Please connect to continue the conversation!
If you have a long term plan and you don't believe that people are cogs that are interchangeable, you want them to have be playing the long game with you. And encouraging that personal and professional development along the way really requires relationship development, and it's something that we can all engage in. It takes time. Yes, but the payment is well worth it on the back end.Kyle Roed:
This is the rebel HR Podcast, the podcast where we talk to HR innovators about all things people leadership. If you're looking for places to find about new ways to think about the world of work, this is the podcast for you. Please subscribe from your favorite podcast listening platform today. And leave us a review. Rebel on HR rebels. Welcome back, rebel HR listeners so excited for the conversation today. Really looking forward to it. With us today we have Lizabeth Wesley Casella. She is the founder and CEO of l 12. Services, a Washington DC firm focused on internal communications and organizational development. She works with businesses to improve workflow processes and culture by leveraging the institutional knowledge of existing team members. Welcome to the show. Elizabeth,Lizabeth Wesely Casella:
thank you so much for having me. This is the highlight of my week.Kyle Roed:
Well, we are happy to have you with us. I am really excited for the discussion today. And I told you before we hit record, you know, I'm just going to selfishly ask all the questions that I want answered for my organization. So thank you for thank you for spending the time and and helping Molly and I have the discussion. So with us, we also have Molly Podesta extremely excited that she is available today with all of the busyness in her life. Welcome, Molly.Molly Burdess:
Thanks, happy to be here as well, as always.Kyle Roed:
So I want to start off the conversation by just understanding a little bit more about your background Lizabeth. So, obviously, you have founded an organization that helps HR work through some of the challenges in their organization, what prompted you to found l 12 services?Lizabeth Wesely Casella:
Well, you know, the ability to support both HR and operations has been a really long standing passion of mine, I kind of cut my teeth here in DC in various associations and nonprofits. And I frequently found myself in that gray space between leadership and the people doing their jobs, translating English to English, it was as though leadership had an idea of the goals they wanted to pursue and would, to a certain degree, try and dictate how those goals should be met. And then the people doing the jobs would have a vague idea of what the goals were, and have really strong ideas about how those goals should be met. And none of it really aligned because neither one could see the landmines on the horizon. And I could, so I kind of served that purpose in a number of organizations before I decided that maybe this was a skill set that other organizations and companies around the world needed. I didn't have a familiarity with internal comms at that time. But it turns out, that's what I was working toward, but internal comms with more of a, an eye toward improving operations, process and culture.Kyle Roed:
Yeah, it's really interesting, I think, you know, as I think about, you know, my experience here, I went to school for for business, and then kind of fell into HR, you know, or, as I like to say, HR found me. And then suddenly, I was thrust into this role where I was in charge of internal communications. And I, you know, I'm like, I didn't go to school for this, you know, how do I, how do I figure out how to say something, what needs to be said, and who needs to hear it, and how often, and in what medium, you know, all of that you just a lot of HR professionals just kind of kind of learn by doing and a lot of us, quite frankly, aren't very good at it. So, so thank you for lending your expertise and kind of helping us stumble through this as you have done your work. And really, you know, kind of invested yourself in in some of the organizational communication and internal communications. What are some of the areas where you have just seen time and time again, there have been issues or there's been mistakes or there's been mis perceptions on what good looks like as it relates to internal communications.Lizabeth Wesely Casella:
There are two that I run across all the time and the first is what you were just talking about, that we're expecting people to wear too many hats. The HR professional is not supposed to be tasked with internal communications. You wouldn't ask them to be tasked with operations, nor would you ask operations to be tasked with internal communications. It's its own An entity and understanding what what you want internal communications to look like meaning if you want it to be all about engagement, or if you want it to be about change management, or you want it to be about culture, it's important to understand the purpose of the communication transfer as an activity itself. And then the second piece is that I see organizations trying to grapple with the fact that we've had so much change over the last, you know, three years. And a really white knuckle grip on what leadership, they think should look like, which isn't the real definition of leadership. And what I mean by that is leadership right now, for the most part, believes that they need to have all of the answers. So they they need to have a wellness program, or they need to have, you know, community activities, or they need to have a certain type of culture and they're dictating that downstream, without the, you know, taking advantage of the huge benefit that they have of the workforce who stayed in place, those that are still in their seats that haven't you know, moved due to our giant attrition bubble, have a lot of the answers, they can tell you what they need, they can tell you what that wellness program could look like, they can tell you what that culture needs to be adjusted to be, they can tell you where the processes are breaking down in the bottlenecks, Leadership isn't taking advantage of this treasure of information that they have, allowing the staff and the teams to help dictate policy and process moving forward. Instead of having all the answers, it's a really good idea to start listening.Kyle Roed:
You know, it's I love that response. And I think it's really getting at something that I learned really kind of the hard way is, you know, good communication isn't about the right script. It's, it's about communication, which is 360. You know, it goes both ways. And if you say something, and nobody's listening, it doesn't matter. If you say the wrong thing, it's bad, or listening. And if they feel like you're not listening, then that's almost the worst of all right? It's like, then you've lost all your credibility. So So what are some strategies or tactics that that you would recommend us to think about? For those of us that have to work through this, this this type of approach to really address, you know, those issues that you just called out?Lizabeth Wesely Casella:
You know, right now, we are leveraging a tool that can be used in a number of different ways. But the way that we use it at l 12. Services. It's called the helix assessment. And I know people are burned out on assessments and polls, but it's a very short, multi question, activity that allows you at the end to understand on a scatter plot chart, the level of burnout among the people within your teams, it kind of gauges you in four different quadrants, if you think about it in a two by two, you know, are you chaos tolerance? Or are you ordered tolerance? Like, do you have any more bandwidth to deal with change, basically? And then are you so burnt out on working with teams that you only want to work with, you know, autonomously? Or are you so fried with being tasked with something and having to manage it on your own, that you really do need teamwork, so being able to see that visually helps us understand the best ways to communicate with teams. And I would encourage other, you know, if HR is tasked with multiple objectives, and one of them is internal communications, understanding how to meet your team, where they're at what type of communication will help them best, is a game changer. And if, if you think about it, like, think of the scatter chart, and somebody in the bottom left corner, really wants to work with teams, because they're tired of managing everything by themselves, and they can't deal with any more change. Well, those people may need direct communication, whether it's interviews or town hall style communication, they may need that really, you know, personal, intimate, one on one environment where they can ask questions in real time and feel as though they're bringing their whole person to the table versus the people on the opposite, you know, upper right side of the chart, that may be just fine getting all of their information off of the intranet or via email and they really, you know, they don't need a lot of hair. Enrolling, and they can be super high touch, understanding how to communicate with people, where to meet them where they're at, is really a great tool. And an easy way to get, you know, a home run.Molly Burdess:
Now, I'm assuming this, this tool is fluid. So the answers could change depending on the time of year where they're at or what they're doing. So would you do this multiple times?Lizabeth Wesely Casella:
Yes. And it is a tool that is available to everyone, any type of business, helix assessment.com. And you will be provided a dashboard where you can deploy the assessment several times, over any type of population, for a contractor project that we're rolling into, let's say it's nine to 18 months, we'll do that assessment at the beginning. So we know were to capture people immediately. And then through the work that we do, which is very heavy in relationship development. We along the way are moving the needle with individuals. So we've already engaged them in one on one interviews, and we're talking about focus grouping, and we're having town halls about the work that we're providing. So if I'm using it, it's used one way, if you're using it, it can be used in in a number of different ways that that support you and your organization.Molly Burdess:
Yeah, I can see that been very helpful for project management especially.Kyle Roed:
Yeah, yes. The answer is yes. I think you know, it's a great call out and I, you know, to kind of support that with, with, you know, an example, I think that's one of the things when, when COVID hit, you know, we we were trying to figure out, okay, how do we connect with others? How do we hear what they're doing? How do we kind of gauge employee sentiment? And we started a survey process, and we did get some feedback like, geez, do I have to fill out this entire survey, you know, but, but the, the feedback that we got from it was invaluable, because it really helped us understand, okay, where are people at we sent, we were able to set a baseline for kind of, you know, where, what is current state, and then we were able to actually put some actions in place to address some of that feedback, some of that being communication systems. And, you know, we had to change what we were doing, you know, corporate announcement, emails, wasn't getting to everybody that needed the information, we had to start doing some town halls, we had to increase, you know, just the frequency of communication, in some cases. And in some cases, we have people who don't sit in front of a computer all day. So how do we communicate to them? Right, you know, and, but we wouldn't have got that feedback if we hadn't actually taken the time to ask. And, you know, so I think, yes, people do get survey fatigue, but that should not cause enough fear that you don't get feedback.Lizabeth Wesely Casella:
Exactly. And and the communication that reassures the participants that legs are attached to this activity we're asking you to invest your time in is also invaluable. If you're going to spend the time and the brain power to answer honestly and thoroughly somebody's survey, or poll, having that never be addressed again, or talked about or not knowing what is happening with the findings is so frustrating in it, you know, it erodes trust. So you really want to be open about communicating why this is happening? What's going to happen with the information afterward? And if they're critical answers that may not be in alignment with the goals of the organization, addressing why those suggestions won't work, but thanking the individuals or the group for for having put the time in to let everybody know that, that that's a possibility or desire for the future, and looking for ways to work toward that.Molly Burdess:
Yeah, I do. I've done a lot of surveys as well. And I think it's so important to get feedback. But for me, what I have found is exactly what you're talking about is it displays what disconnects are out there. So what we're doing as a leadership team did was the perception what we intended it to be or not, and then we can kind of circle back around it and correct that and fix that and reiterate our points and why we did it. And for me, that's what I have found most valuable about these surveys.Lizabeth Wesely Casella:
Well done. I'm glad that you're following up with your people.Kyle Roed:
Yeah, Molly's good like that. Nice job.Molly Burdess:
Well, I'm definitely not perfect. I mean, gosh, you guys are talking and I'm just sitting here thinking about how many times I have had somebody asked me Well, where was this or what was this and I in my mind Hang up. Mike, did you not read the email I sent out? Did you not get this? But I know that's exactly what you guys are talking about like, okay, that means I have to do better at my communication and be more intentional. But it's really hard to do. And I think all of us in HR can probably relate to that is what was in my email I sent last week. Well, andLizabeth Wesely Casella:
oftentimes we're thinking about how can I word that better? When the answer may actually be? Is there a different type of channel like some of our clients have decided to implement internal podcasts. And they found that since I'm on a podcast, we're not talking about podcasts, they found that really an effective way to create that intimate communication that that level, you know, gauge that level of interest, because it's not that they're always interviewing the CEO, or that it's always about some sort of mass blast, organization wide piece of information, sometimes what they're doing is gathering the suggestions from the team about areas of interest, sometimes they deal with the organization, sometimes they're an external expert. Sometimes they're just about fun, and they're helping to support culture. But you know, being able to understand what your teams will accept, as far as a channel or a platform for communication is really important. And those those platform assessments are necessary. And I would suggest doing them now, to see what's changed over the transition to remote then transition to hybrid. And now with the assumption that we're nearing the end of the attrition bubble.Kyle Roed:
Yeah, you know, I've actually thought about that, like, you know, I mean, obviously, I know how to do a podcast, what if I just did one, you know, from from my organization, and when we did talk about it, we haven't pulled the trigger on it yet. But I will tell people, like, if you actually think that, that might be an idea that you want to do. Send me an email, it's not that complicated to do something like that. And you could put it out there on a player. There's a lot of free programs out there, you could you could get it done. And I bet there's some somebody that loves podcasts that has some sort of passion for sound editing in your organization that could this could be a really cool project for him. Right. So that's a great, great call up. I don't know if I'm going to pull the trigger yet. But, you know, I, I will say that it is funny that employees listen to this podcast. So I do get that feedback as well as, as well as candidates. So it's been kind of, it's been funny that the unintended audience for this show, you know, has just kind of trickled into my w two life a little bit. Anyway.Lizabeth Wesely Casella:
Well, I want to be among the first five when you do pull the trigger.Kyle Roed:
All right, all right. Perfect. That's a deal. That's the deal. So one of the things I want to dig into, because you, you know, you're, you really focus on internal communication. And you, you also focus on attrition, and, and reducing, you know, some of these challenges. And I think anybody listening to this podcast, is struggling with attrition. And if you're not, I want to know who you are and what you're doing so that you don't struggle, because we're all looking for answers right now. And I think, you know, there's obviously there's some macro economic factors that are, are causing that there's just not enough people for open jobs. And, you know, we've seen all sorts of different things getting thrown at this at this problem. So I'm curious to get your perspective, you know, as you look at the the world of work today, and, you know, attrition in general, you know, what are some of the themes or, or trends that you're seeing out there, that we really need to be thinking about how to how to address?Lizabeth Wesely Casella:
Well, it's interesting. Currently, our labor statistics for you know, people who aren't in the workforce are the exact same level they were pre pandemic. What the question is, what changed? Why are we focused on it now? And why does it give us anxiety? Well, it's because the message to business leaders is that the workforce has leveraged, they are moving in unison, they had a moment where they all tapped into the zeitgeist. And what they're trying to say is, we want change. So I think if we back up and look at this from the lens, that change is scary. And leadership doesn't always know what that change is. Because right now, the messages are muddy. It's understandable that, you know, we're all focused on the great resignation, which you know, there's only a limited amount of attrition you can possibly have before you hit the end of that bubble. And I think we're getting closer toward the end of that. And then, you know, if I look at my crystal ball, we're gonna have probably about a year or so where people are going to try other things, if they've decided to try their hand at entrepreneurship, a lot of those people 18 months from now we're gonna say, Wow, business ownership is super hard. It was not what I thought it was gonna be. And there's, you know, there is great comfort in having a paycheck and, you know, unlimited resources and seeing friends and, you know, not having to worry about funnels and all of the things. And there is nothing wrong with having tried your hand entrepreneurship and going back to the business world, because you bring back skills with you, you learned something during that experience, and you can become entrepreneurial in your next workplace. So when I think about attrition, and I'm talking to a client, what I'm talking about is, it's not the work from home debate, it's not salaries, and it's not titled it's all about, does the worker is a worker able to connect the dots and see their own value? As it relates to the goals for the organization? Do they feel heard? Are they working in an environment, that there's a streamlined, super clear path between them? And a success metric? Do they know the five things they're supposed to do every day? And can they tick those off, so that every day when they turn off their computer, they're like, Yay, I won the day, because you layer those successful days on top of each other, and you have someone who's confident and comfortable in their work environment, and that confident person is more likely to display leadership, or to have innovative thoughts and ideas and share them. So when I'm trying to help an organization do is create that environment. But I'm using the overall goal of the organization and leadership. And then I'm asking the people who do the work, how to get there, what do they need? What do they see, because their hands are dirty in the work every single day. And what leadership doesn't know, because they don't do it every day is that the innovation, innovative solutions to a lot of the challenges and the least expensive way to address the challenges is by asking the people who do the jobs, how they'd like to see improvements activated. And that allows the people who are in those focus groups, and in those interviews and opportunity to to build trust, they feel as though the organization is trustworthy, because they're asking them for their opinion. And they're able to reinvest of themselves in the business. And that's really what you want. If you have a long term plan, and you don't believe that people are cogs that are interchangeable, you want them to have be playing the long game with you. And encouraging that personal and professional development along the way, really requires relationship development. And it's something that we can all engage in. It takes time. Yes. But the payment is well worth it on the back end.Molly Burdess:
Yeah, I completely agree with everything you're saying. And I'm just sitting here thinking, and I don't know if you have much to do with this. But how do like annual reviews, one on ones? How does that come into play here? Because then you're talking about Do you know what your job is? Do you know how it connects to the to the larger business? I think many of us in HR thinking about reviews and one on one? That's where we should be doing those things, right? Or am I completely wrong? Well, you'reLizabeth Wesely Casella:
not completely wrong, because in the HR space, that is your job. Those milestones are what you keep on your calendar, the in between, there is a huge opportunity for management to step in and grease those wheels. And what we recommend is every four to six weeks, everyone sits down with their direct report and talks about anything other than productivity unless there's like a pressing issue or an actual question. The meetings should be more about getting to know the people who work with you. So we're talking about professional development and personal development and you know, the assessment of the culture and, you know, trying to absorb any innovative ideas that are coming your way. You want your team's to know that by the time the annual review comes around. Their manager has had a conversation with HR that says, I know this person, I know what they want to do. I know what they're doing well and I see them here two years down the line, we can develop this person or this person is a superstar right where they're at. They don't want to be distracted with anything else. Let's reduce the noise around them and let them just run with the ball.Kyle Roed:
That makes perfect sense. You know, one of the things you you touched on really resonated with me and that was Just kind of the the ability for an employee to understand that they've made a difference today and like, you know, almost like, like, have a win for the day, right or have a purpose for the day. And I've, I've had this dialog with a number of people throughout my career, a lot of times in human resources, where there's a lack of clarity on my accomplishments, you know, and so often we get caught up in the chaos of the day and the firefighting of employee concerns and in positions that are open and turnover and, and all sorts of things that it's like, some days, you just get to the end of the day, you're like, Oh, what did I get done today? Like, you know, I felt like I just ran survive on a big hamster wheel. Yeah. Is that it? Is that the check the book, but I think it's so important. So, you know, for the listeners, this podcast, I know many of us have gone through a challenging year, we're probably feeling a little bit burnt out ourselves. You know, I think I know many people who are questioning Jesus HR, you know, I want to keep doing this for the next 20 years. So Lizabeth, what, what advice do you have for us in the HR profession, as we think about attrition and burnout for ourselves, what are some things that we can do, to check the box to find those wins, and to really ensure that we're focused on the purpose that we need to be focused on?Lizabeth Wesely Casella:
Let's start with caretaking. I mean, this can be a really long list, because I advocate for you HR professionals all the time. But the taking care of yourself is really important. Sometimes I run across HR professionals that need to reframe what their job is, what their what their overall value system is, and say, Wait a minute, you are a critical role within your organization. And if you don't take care of yourself, you're not taking care of other people. So reminding yourself that you are a piece of of the puzzle and deserve and require as much caretaking as you're trying to provide other people, you know, support for everyone because it's an ecosystem, we're all interdependent. So please take care of yourself, whether that's the day off or blocking your calendar so that you have more ability to manage how your time is spent. And then, you know, the other end of the spectrum, which requires a little bit of work and kind of spine and gumption is to hold your boundaries. Oftentimes, HR is the place where people are assigned tasks that don't belong there. Because Kyle is really good at his job, we're going to have Kyle do this thing. That's the new project or the CEOs, you know, idea. Well, you know, internal comms and operations aren't the job of HR, it's not Kyle's job to pick up everything just because he's good at his job. So being able to say, this doesn't fall within my responsibility set. And I am so honored that you think that I'm a superstar. But let's find the right place for this work. Or being able to say, we are doing our best to keep the wheels on this bus. And what we really need is a third party to come in and help us do these focus groups and create these workflow maps and do the interviewing and assess for chaos tolerance. And all of the other things allow us to get some support from somebody else, so that we can keep doing our job to the best of our ability, because the bottom line is I want to do a good job for the organization. And if you spread me too thin, I can't.Molly Burdess:
Yeah, I completely agree. You know, one of the best things I think I've ever done in my HR career is with my team, we met quarterly, and all we talked about was our successes for that past quarter. Because just to your point, both of your points, like as an HR, it's often like putting out fires and, you know, focusing on what things need to be improved. And I just don't think HR takes the time to actually like, look and think about what was what have they done that has impacted the success, whether it be I've hired this many people or, you know, I helped to this person, and I just think it's it's so important, and we don't do it enough.Lizabeth Wesely Casella:
I think you're absolutely right. And I would encourage you to excuse me engage in that more frequently. One of the activities that we often bring to organizations, and I would suggest maybe in a in a departmental scope is something that we call work sprints where every two weeks or however it fits in best with your calendar, whatever cadence you you find most effective. Two or three hour block that Everybody's invited to a zoom. And it's nothing about monitoring productivity. It's not about keeping an eye on anybody, it's an opportunity for everybody to kind of have that collective watercooler workspace. And you start out the meeting by saying, you know, what was your success for the week, and everybody types that in the chat, you have the ability to have breakout rooms where people can go and work on projects together if they want to, but you just you keep your cameras on, you can turn off your microphone, you can take calls, you can do whatever kind of work, but everybody's in the same space. And it's amazing how even in a virtual environment that can create community, the ability to just as you're working, have a thought and think, you know, Molly is really an expert in this area. And and I'm not, maybe we can pull off into a breakout room and, and chat this over, or she could mentor me or something like that, that feeling like you're in it together, does an enormous amount of, you know, it has a lot of support opportunities, but it also creates community beyond team building, which is important.Kyle Roed:
Absolutely. And I think, you know, maybe put a bow on that conversation, you know, it's one of those things like, Hey, where are we in the HR community, we're all in this together, right. So if you don't have that within your organization, that doesn't mean that you don't have that within the HR community, right. And so and I think that's really kind of what we're getting at here is like, we're all here together. Let's, let's celebrate those wins together. Let's support each other together. You know, our jobs are hard. But but it's important, and probably more important now than ever before, that we are focused on the right purpose. And that we're not becoming, you know, closed off or getting so burnt out that we're leaving the profession altogether, because I have seen many really wonderful HR professionals actually leave their jobs, which is a disservice to their organizations and to, to, to society as a whole. So, you know, we're all in this together. This is what I'm saying. And I think it's you cannot, you cannot skip out on the small wins, you have to even if that's a checklist that says, Am I still breathing, if at 5:30pm today, check win win for the day. It matters. With that being said, Lizabeth, I wish we had more time to dig into too many more topics, we could probably keep going for a long time. But I do need to shift gears into the rebel HR flash round. So question number one, where does HR need to rebel?Lizabeth Wesely Casella:
In creating those boundaries, and having those conversations saying that you are spread too thin?Kyle Roed:
Absolutely, I think that is you know, the ability to say no, for many of us is hard, right? Yes. But if you say yes to too many things, you will get overwhelmed. That's true. Simple. All right. Question number two, who should we be listening to?Lizabeth Wesely Casella:
your teams and your staff? They have the answers. They are a goldmine. It's the least expensive, fastest way to solve problems.Kyle Roed:
I kind of set you up for that one. Yeah. I promised I ask every guest the same question. But but you know, that was kind of a softball. So you know, but nice, nice hit. All right. Last question. How can our listeners connect with you?Lizabeth Wesely Casella:
I am ubiquitous on LinkedIn, I really don't participate on any of the other social media channels. So LinkedIn and my website, my team and I can be found at l 12 services.com. That's the letter L. Number one, number two services.com.Kyle Roed:
Absolutely, we will have that all in the in the show notes. One call out there on your website, there is actually an attrition assessment that you can you can take and and you know, I would encourage you to take a look at that. Think about it. Think about this conversation in the context of your organization. And don't hesitate to reach out to the to the community as a whole. We're all in this together. So Elizabeth, thank you so much for your time. It's just been a wonderful discussion and have a great rest of your day.Lizabeth Wesely Casella:
Thank you so much. I really enjoyed it.Kyle Roed:
Thank you. All right. That does it for the rebel HR podcast. Big thank you to our guests. Follow us on Facebook at rebel HR podcast, Twitter, at rebel HR guy, or see our website at rebel human resources.com. The views and opinions expressed by rebel HR podcast are those of the authors and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of any of the organizations that we represent No animals were harmed during the filming of this podcast maybe