RHR 130: Become a Waymaker for Inclusion with Tara Jaye Frank

Tara Jaye Frank: 0:00

I think sometimes we feel like we have to over rotate on the difference. And we want to walk through that door, I would say instead, gather people who share a lived experience and walk through the door of their humanity. Right? What's really working for you here at work? What's not working for you? What do you wish were true? What are you concerned about? You know, you can ask those questions generally, as long as you're grouping people in a way that's going to teach you something about how they're unique.

Kyle Roed: 0:26

This is the rebel HR Podcast, the podcast where we talk to HR innovators about all things people leadership. If you're looking for places to find about new ways to think about the world of work, this is the podcast for you. Please subscribe from your favorite podcast listening platform today. And leave us a review revelon HR rebels. Welcome back, rebel HR listeners extremely excited for our guests this week. We have been waiting for so long to talk with her. I think we booked her like almost six months ago, it seems like so really excited to talk to Tara J. Frank. She is an author, advisor, teacher and waymaker. She's an equity strategist who has advised and educated 1000s of fortune 500 executives across multiple industries and large member organizations. Her work fueled by a deep belief in the creative power and potential of everyone focuses on building bridges between people, ideas and opportunity. She has recently written a book called The WingMakers clearing the path to workplace equity, with competence and confidence. Tara, thank you so much for joining us.

Tara Jaye Frank: 1:38

Thank you, Kyle, for having me. I really appreciate it.

Kyle Roed: 1:42

Well, like I said, In the beginning, super excited for the conversation. I feel like I've been like, anxiously awaiting this for so long. And and I just you know, as as I was preparing for this and researching some of your background, I just appreciate so much of the work that you've done in the in the equity and the leadership and employee experience space. And so I want to start off by just asking a question, what inspired you to write your book the way makers?

Tara Jaye Frank: 2:09

Yes, well, thank you for all that. All those good vibes? And for the quintessential question, right, I get this question a lot. As you can imagine, there are a couple things that inspired me to write it in the last couple of years, I've spent a lot of time with CEOs and their C suite teams. And I noticed that many of them had three things in common, right, when it comes to talking about diversity and equity and inclusion. The first thing is that most of them wanted to do the right thing. The second is, many of them didn't necessarily know what the right thing was. And the third is some really felt unsure about how to step into the work. You know, where to begin, what to focus on what to do and not do. And so I wrote the book as a field guide, if you will, right for those high level leaders and aspiring leaders, to better understand the nature of the work, what's been in our way, what they can do practically right to remove the barriers to opportunity for everyone in their charge. So that's one side of why I wrote the book. The other and why it's called the winemakers is to be honest with you every you know, black and brown person or anyone who exists on a dimension of difference in a company who has risen to high levels of contribution, that they're not just because they're smart and experienced, right and have great ideas. But because someone made a way for them, someone opened a door and removed a barrier and ushered them through to greater levels of contribution. And we need more way makers. So I wrote the book both as inspiration, but also as a tool so that leaders could could be more equipped, right to lead in new ways.

Kyle Roed: 4:00

Absolutely. I think it's, it's really powerful. And I think about that, you know, personally, I have so many people to thank, for where I am, I had so many, you know, so many opportunities are because someone believed in me, whether that was a teacher, or a mentor or or a leader at work. But I would not be here without all of that support. And it What strikes me as you walk through that, as there are people that don't have that, that's where there are people that have a barrier in place. So as we think about that in the context of of the world of work, how, how should we be thinking about identifying some of those barriers for folks and how should we be thinking about forging that path for others in our organizations?

Tara Jaye Frank: 4:55

Yeah, it's a very broad question. Of course, because There are so many and especially those of us who work in human resources, work with people with culture. My first place to start always is to gather great intelligence, right? You can imagine a lot of high level leaders asked me what they should do. And some of them want to start with best practices, right? We want to be a more equitable organization, we want to be a more inclusive organization, what are the best practices, what are other companies doing? And I always say, you know, that's really not the best place to start. Because someone else may be doing something that you've already done, or someone else may be doing something that you are not quite ready for. So the first step always, is to gather good intelligence, do you have a strong sense of what your employee experience currently is? Across all these dimensions of difference? And for me, that's different than an engagement, you know, survey, that's not necessarily asking them, what they think about what you think about you. It's really trying to dig into what is happening day to day? How are your choices and behaviors impacting their relationship with you, right, as an organization, as a manager? How is it impacting their ability to be successful, to get to the next level, to feel, you know, valued, to be psychologically safe, like, these are all the kinds of questions and conversations that make us smarter about what to go do next. So understanding where those kinks in the system are, is a really important first step. The second big thing we need to do, quite frankly, and I'm sure you will appreciate this is take accountability, right for shifting those cultures for figuring out how to evolve the norms, right, that we've always just abided by the thing about norms is, we don't think about them anymore. You know, we stop interrogating them, because it's just the way we've always done things. But when we do things the way we've always done them, we continue to advantage, the same people and we disadvantage, the same people as well. So taking that responsibility, it's not just hrs job. Clearly, HR has a critical role in evolving culture in creating better workplaces, for employees. But you got, we got to do that in partnership with business leaders. They have to own that and be leaders right in this space as much as they are in any other space. And the last thing I would say is we've got to develop more relationships across differences. Part of why people are not experiencing way making, right, the way that you did the way you described, is because we're so isolated from one another, we tend to surround ourselves with and trust people who remind us of ourselves. And that leaves so many people on the outside looking in.

Kyle Roed: 8:03

Absolutely. You know, I think wonderful, wonderful things to call. You're absolutely right, you know, anything where you like destruct a norm I Love You know, I mean, we didn't name the podcast rebel, a chance. Right. But, but I think it's, it's, it's really, it's really powerful to, you know, I want to circle back to what you talked about. And you probably saw, the listeners can't see the look on my face. But when you talked about like the difference between an employee opinion survey, and actually understanding, you know, your employee experience across the dimensions of difference. Those are two very, very different things. So as we think about all of those dimensions of difference. You know, I think I think, you know, I'm actually kind of going back to one of the reasons you wrote this book is, so many of us are afraid about how to step into that, you know, how to step into gathering that Intel? Yep. In a way that's not uncomfortable. It what, what, I guess, thoughts or what observations? Have you seen as you were preparing for this book for organizations that did that the right way, and kind of and kind of stepped into that in a way that, that that worked?

Tara Jaye Frank: 9:30

Yeah, so this is a really good question. I will tell you philosophically, one of the ways I approach my work is that everyone at work generally needs the same things. But some of us get those needs met to a lesser degree. So in preparation for the winemakers, we did a proprietary research study in partnership with a company called brand trust. And we ran a narrative a narrative inquiry study, we asked hundreds of them Louie's to tell us stories of times they felt seen and respected and valued and protected. And to tell us stories of times, they felt invisible and disrespected, and underappreciated and scrutinized. And the learnings from that were so profound, because some things we kind of all have in common, right. But the manifestation of those emotional states differs across groups. The way I think about it is if we approach every single person in our charge with the same level of curiosity, and interest, and listen for the similarities and the nuances, we will begin to identify patterns, right of what certain groups have in common, versus others. So simply, we can do an experience survey. That's anonymous, right? And that, but that asks people to identify themselves along different dimensions. So that when we look at that data, we have an opportunity to splice it to see what's common and see what's different, that's going to teach us a little something about how people are experiencing our company uniquely. The other thing we can do is just gather people together, maybe in identity groups through ERGs, let's say. So we want to invite people, a small subsection of our black ERG a small subsection of our LGBT ERG, etc. And we just want to have conversations not about, you know, their blackness per se, not about their sexual orientation, but about their experience, knowing that all of them are coming to that conversation with similar lived experiences. And that's the difference. I think sometimes we feel like we have to over rotate on the difference. And we want to walk through that door. I would say instead, gather people who share a lived experience and walk through the door of that of their humanity. Right? What's really working for you hear at work, what's not working for you? What do you wish were true? What are you concerned about? You know, you can ask those questions generally, as long as you're grouping people in a way that's going to teach you something about how they're unique.

Kyle Roed: 12:13

I love that that phrase walked through the door of their humanity. And that's that's mean, yeah, you should trademark that. That's really good. I don't share it. Somebody else said it in some way. At some point. You subconsciously, yeah, soaked it in. But, you know, I think that's a really, really powerful. And for those that that aren't familiar, ERG is Employee Resource Group, which Yes, I can. And I will attest, you know, and we've done some of this at my, in my company, where we've, we've, we've got a couple recently formed, er, cheese and the the points of connection that have come out of that. And for me, a lot of I mean, I'm a white guy in the Midwest in the United States. So, you know, I'm not really traditionally diverse, but I do I get so much perspective, just from being a fly on the wall. And those meetings or reading the meeting notes or, you know, being kind of the executive sponsor for these groups, that that then trickles through every, you know, every aspect of every system that I have to touch in my role. Right. So I agree 100% I think that, you know, there, that was absolutely. A wonderful call out. You know, I'm one of the things I'm curious to ask about. And we talked, I just talked about this with a recent podcast guest is is kind is asking people to identify which groups they identify with. I think a lot of us in human resources are a little bit nervous about that. Yeah. And it's, it's, you know, we want the data yet, but we also don't want to categorize people into a narrow box. And we, we don't want to ask people to do something that's makes them feel, you know, singled out or uncomfortable. So any recommendations for how to how to go through that kind of that that identification process in a way that's, that's actually comfortable for somebody? Or is there no way to do it in a way that's comfortable? Are you talking about

Tara Jaye Frank: 14:14

the survey situation or just like in conversation, because those are very different?

Kyle Roed: 14:22

You know, yeah, yes, I guess. Yeah. But you know, the way I think about it, it's, I'm always thinking about system, you know, like, how do I how do I systemically do this? Yeah, but yeah, so I guess I would lean more towards this system. How do you what's this? Yeah,

Tara Jaye Frank: 14:38

so I'll tell you how I think about it. Because, you know, first of all, let's acknowledge there's no right or wrong way to group people and then identify groups. At the end of the day. The only the best way to identify a person is to ask a person for Right, how they identify or how they like to be, you know, addressed and then respect that individual's preference. But because we're trying to do things that have system impact, that doesn't work in HR, right, like you do need to group people along certain lines of distinction, or you're not going to learn anything about how the system works for some and not others. And so the way that I think about it, if we just take survey as an example, because it's the easiest way to talk about this, I will often do a disclaimer upfront, or I'll recommend my my clients do a disclaimer upfront and says, We know identity is a very personal thing. Please answer the following questions to the degree that you are comfortable. So first of all, you've set the stage that you know, some people are not going to want to answer these questions, and you're respecting whatever boundary they may have. But then with each question, will say, you know, please mark one or more that apply to you list a bunch of races and ethnicities for an example. And then always have a prefer not to say, this way, you're, you may not get all the data you want, but at least you're showing people the individual respect, right, recognizing they may have boundaries and may not want to respond. In most cases, people will respond. But you got to give them that option. Otherwise they feel put upon.

Kyle Roed: 16:33

Yeah, I, I won't repeat the story, because I told it on a recent episode. But yeah, I certainly stepped into that, you know, made that mistake. So I can attest it. Listen to Tara do it that way. Don't Why do

Tara Jaye Frank: 16:46

people do though, I think the most important thing when we're analyzing the data, and I'm sure that you and other guests have talked about this, or that you've talked about this in your day to day work, is we need to be looking at intersectional data, you know, we sometimes only look at, you know, race in a in a vacuum or gender in a vacuum, etc. But those intersections really matter. And they create yet more unique experiences for people, right? If I'm gay and black, I have a very unique experience from someone who is gay and not black. If I am female, and you know, Asian, I have a very different experience than than the men who are Asian. And so that intersectionality matters. So the more data, the more demographic data we can try to collect, I think the better our decision making will be on the other side. Because we'll just be that much more insightful?

Kyle Roed: 17:46

Absolutely. I think it's, it's really powerful to understand that and understand, you know, the, the makeup of your organization. So let's, let's fast forward, let's say, okay, you know, we've kind of understand, we've understood the data. We've learnt we understood, understand the lived experience of our employees, and in the context of their differences. And there are challenges there are there, you know, there are issues that arrive. Yep. Is that where the way makers need to come in?

Tara Jaye Frank: 18:22

Yes. So the way makers actually belong in every phase of this journey, with the way makers are in the room, when the survey is being designed, saying, we're not asking hard enough questions, or were, you know, throwing softballs at everybody, or this isn't going to teach us what we really need to know, right? For example, the way makers certainly are in the room where the data is being interpreted. The way makers say, Why are we always looking for the least common denominator, you know, some of these nuances and these differences are where we can really learn how to get better, right way makers are challenging assumptions every step of the way. But then once you have that data, and you're gleaning some insights, and you know that you've asked the good questions, right, that you're looking at the margins for signs of what might be broken, you're then trying to identify the pieces or the steps on the talent journey that provide what I like to call opportunities for impact. You know, I look at it as where can we drill for oil? So if you ask really good experienced questions, you may learn, gosh, we have a lot of opportunity in our onboarding process. We're never really getting people plugged into our company in the first place. You know, something's not working there. That's an opportunity for impact or people are really unsure about how to get to the next level. They do not know what the clear criteria is. They do not know how to develop the kinds of connections or relationships that are going to help them get to that next level. We need to really do some digging Around promotion, right or succession planning. So the Insight should should reveal to you or suggest to you at the very least, what those steps are on the talent journey that give you an opportunity to make things better for everyone. At which point, the way I like to do it, you know, I have an innovation mastery as well. So I love to, you know, in a creative product development background, I love to kind of bring it all together in kind of a creative way to say, let's bring, let's, let's gather people from different levels of the company, people from different, you know, identity backgrounds, people who have different tenure people with different generations, right into a room for a half day, and talk about these different steps on this talent journey. And ask people to consider and to discuss what's really working today? What do we think is broken? Again? What do we wish were true about the step in the talent journey? And where do we believe we really have significant risks, and have those robust discussions, right, from a 360 degree lens? To then look at all that data, those inputs, those ideas, and say, Gosh, what bold choices can we make moving forward, that are informed by some of these conversations? If I look at everything, honestly, as a creative problem to be solved?

Kyle Roed: 21:31

Absolutely, I think it's, you know, that's a really interesting approach. It goes back to what you mentioned earlier, it's you know, by by taking an approach like that, you're actually you're understanding those experiences, deeper, right, Nit, and you're actually to the point that they're helping you. So you're

Tara Jaye Frank: 21:50

solving the real problem, you you're solving the problem you actually have. Right, the problem, you think you have

Kyle Roed: 21:58

you just just my next question. So, you know, it's like, I do think it's so it's, it's so powerful to have that data. But I think the hardest part is not gathering the data. It's figuring out, okay, what do I do with this? Like, what, what are the steps? And if you, if you do this in a vacuum, don't you run the risk of actually just solving a perceived problem, but maybe not even the real problem? Am I right on that?

Tara Jaye Frank: 22:24

That's exactly right, which is why, you know, when I mentioned bring people together across dimensions of difference, to talk about the opportunities, and then to come up with ideas to solve them, that is a very, very, very, very, very intentional, you know, frame that I use, because what you're doing is you are leveraging diversity in that moment to solve a business problem. One of the best things about diversity is it helps you see problems more broadly. And it helps you solve them more creatively. And so in that case, you're doing exactly that you're leveraging that diversity, to understand the problem, and then to come up with ideas to solve it. What we do now often when we don't force diverse lenses on a problem, right, both from a lived experience standpoint, and the you know, preferences and delights and concerns and frustrations, you have, let's say me, let's say I'm in control, I usually like to solve problems with people who think like me and approach the work like me, because it's faster. And it's less frustrating. And if I have a group that I always go to, you know, my go to crew, who's going to solve these problems with me? Well, guess what, if we're all optimist, we're all going to talk about what we already like about what we're doing. And then we're going to do more of that. If we're all problem solvers, we're all going to look for what's broken. And then we're going to try to fix that. If we're all innovators, or creative people are pioneers, we're going to forget everything we already have going and come up with a completely new way to do it. In any of those circumstances. We have missed really important lenses. Right? Like, I don't know about you, but I'm a pioneer. If somebody asked me to think about how we can make a process better. If I if I leave myself to my own devices, I wouldn't even pay a lot of attention to what's happening right now. I'll just get in a room and come up with a totally new way to do it. And then people will be like, but wait, Tara, some of this though, isn't broken. Some of this is working really well as is right. So you get where I'm going with that?

Kyle Roed: 24:32

Yeah, I think I think you know, I'm smirking over here because it's like Yep, that's me. Yep. Yep. Totally, totally optimistic. Like, you know, oh, this is gonna take so take what three weeks you know, when in actuality if we want to do it right, it's gonna take six months and and you know, a lot of investment and I do I love you know, I just love new I love change, you know, I'm very much like, oh, we can do this better. Let's completely throw everything out. Everything started with

Tara Jaye Frank: 25:00

thing which which, you know, because I'm sure you've worked with so many different kinds of people is like maddening folks who write, who think incrementally, but also who spend a lot of time building systems to, you know, be sustainable. Like, you can't just throw everything away and start from scratch every single time you want to make a change.

Kyle Roed: 25:28

Yeah, yeah, what I'm what I'm hearing is we might have a one, we're gonna have a wonderful conversation, but maybe you and I should not work together on a project team deliverable.

Tara Jaye Frank: 25:39

Alone, we should not work

Kyle Roed: 25:41

alone. We need to have the diversity of thought on that team, right? Yes, exactly. Right. I think one of the things you know, I loved how you said it, it's, you know, and I think about this in the context of my team, you know, yeah, I've got that go to person. And I have go to people for specific things, just because I know, it's fast. That's right, I got a lot, I got a lot of emails coming in, I got a lot going on, I just want to, you know, let's get this done. Now, let's get this done. Now, this will be quick. That's, and I'll you know, to share a maybe a personal anecdote here. This is exactly what happened when we did our last employee opinion survey. And we heard that career development is something that we're not great at yet, which what to me was not surprising. And something that I would have said that without doing this, you know, this this massive global survey. And the way that I wanted to solve it was by the exact formula that I've seen it solved in the past at other companies that I've worked at, and through some of my peers, who are a lot like me, who have done things in their companies. And so, you know, it was a little bit of an aha moment where it's like, you know, yeah, well, the, what we did instead, thankfully, was we took it to our women's employee resource group, because that was one of the groups that specifically was saying, hey, we need more career development here. And they came back with a totally different solution, something that we're looking to implement that I never would have thought of, and, and literally, like, helped me completely reshape how to think about this in the context of my organization. To go back to your other point of, hey, there's not really right way to do it, you need to listen to your team and figure out,

Tara Jaye Frank: 27:26

I mean, you leveraged the power of diversity in real time. You know, we, when we just do things the way again, we've always done it, we make too many assumptions, especially as it comes when it comes to creating more equitable and inclusive cultures. Like if everything we've already been doing could help us achieve that we would have achieved it, but we have not. So that we should know, that means we need to approach these problems in a totally new way. You know, and the thing you said to that I think is really important is we have our go to crew, because it's faster, but bias travels with speed. We know that theoretically, but we don't realize how often we allow it to drive us or to take Route, right? Because we're thinking about being efficient. But efficiency is the enemy of equity, in many cases. Because in order to do something fast, you have to rely on the formulas that you know, you have to rely on what's comfortable and natural for you. So it does take, you know, a lot, I think it takes very conscious action for us to disrupt some of those norms on purpose, and be okay with the fact that it might take us a little bit longer to get to the right answer as a result, we have a hard time with that. And I know why we're all being asked to do more with less. But I gotta tell you, if we were to just slow down, right, slow down to go faster, we wouldn't still be having the same conversation 10 years from now.

Kyle Roed: 29:06

That powerful statement, you know, I had never really thought of it in that context, to be honest with you, you know, bias travels with speed. I think that's worth repeating. And, and, but it's so right, you know, the systems that we operate in that work, clearly have not helped equity. But we continue to operate in that paradigm because it's what we all know,

Tara Jaye Frank: 29:31

it's the way we do things. It's Yes, you know, and it's, it's connected to we talked we mentioned this a little bit earlier, to our orthodoxies, right, like we all have orthodoxies this. This is just how we do this here. These are the rules we abide by, you know, these are our norms. We don't even question them anymore, because it's just the way it is. And if we can find the courage and just a little bit of patience I'm to acknowledge to ourselves that the way things are is not the way they could be, then I think we would start to to address some of these challenges very differently.

Kyle Roed: 30:15

Absolutely. And in my pioneering mode, I'm also thinking like, and if we don't figure this out, right, the future is going to be scary. And might, you know, my theory is that you're going to lose, because you're not going to be able to retain, engage and win with, with a diverse team, which is what it's going to take to win. Right.

Tara Jaye Frank: 30:39

And, and view the future. I mean, I don't have to tell you, this, you you swim in this data, I'm sure all the time. But you know, 87%, I think it is, of Gen Z, says that diversity and equity and inclusion are very important to them in choosing a workplace that is not for the record 87% of black and brown people. That is not 87% of women. That's 87% of all Gen Z. So let's back up if they say it's very important in selecting a company, and yet we can't find the time or money or patience to invest. That's going to be a pretty sad state of affairs here in a few years.

Kyle Roed: 31:29

Absolutely. It's table stakes at this, right. It is table benefits, diversity like that. Yeah. And you know, the reality is, and they just won't tolerate it.

Tara Jaye Frank: 31:44

Or they won't come in the first place.

Kyle Roed: 31:45

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Yeah. You're lucky if they started. Yeah, just the other day, I literally just talked to my recruiter. And she had a candidate who had probably 10, specifically pointed questions regarding our diversity, equity and inclusion programs.

Tara Jaye Frank: 32:03

That's right. And that's becoming the norm. Yeah, yeah.

Kyle Roed: 32:06

Between that and work life balance, you know, we got to be willing to change. So yeah, Tara, you're preaching to the choir, there we could. That's another podcast. But it's coming. So you know, hang on, it's an you better get this figured out. I'm sorry. With that being said. It's just it's a wish we had more time. We're coming to the end of our time together. And it's just been a wonderful conversation. But I want to shift gears. I'm fascinated to hear your responses to the rebel HR flash round. Are you ready? I'm ready. All right. Question number one, where does HR need to rebel?

Tara Jaye Frank: 32:42

HR needs to rebel. On the inside first. I know that's probably not what you meant by that question. But we need to rebel against our own antiquated ideas. If you ask me. And if we can do that, then I think we give ourselves the opportunity to look at every problem with fresh eyes.

Kyle Roed: 33:06

I'm all in on that. I suck at that. I think that's where it starts. Right. Gotta be willing to rebel a little bit. Yeah. And you know, in an HR way, but yes, you have to look inside, before you can really impact your organization. Right. All right. Question number two, who should we be listening to?

Tara Jaye Frank: 33:24

Our people we should be listening to that's an obvious, but we should be listening to our employees, you should not be listening to all the articles and the think pieces and your competition. I mean, they're if they're a different company, they have different problems, and therefore they're going to have different solutions. So I believe that your people are your greatest source of insight.

Kyle Roed: 33:48

Yeah, I mean, I, I couldn't agree more. And I obviously we've, we've I think we've hit this point quite a bit on this podcast. But I mean, I can't tell you how many HR professionals I've spoken to in this topic. And a lot of times, they're really just, they're asking for what's the right answer? The manual? Yeah. Can you just give me you know, the answers to the test? Or what should we do? Or can you help us do this? And, you know, a lot of times the answer is no, not really, I can't tell you what you need. I can't tell you. You have to go discover that yourself. With your organization.

Tara Jaye Frank: 34:19

Yeah. And, you know, honestly, Kyle, I wrote The WingMakers for those people. Because it doesn't give you the answers, but it tells you how to get them. And I do think a lot of people need help doing that. Right? We have so many fences that are still, you know, I believe not because people don't care or don't want to contribute to change, but because they don't know exactly what to do, or they feel insecure about doing it. And I mean, that's why the subtitle is clearing the path to workplace equity with competence and competence, because those are the two things that are missing right now.

Kyle Roed: 34:55

Absolutely. Yeah. And I'll take that a step further. You know, once you get the answers then you've got I'd be willing to do something about it. Right. That's it. That's just the way maker. Right. Okay, that's it. Last question. How can our listeners connect with you?

Tara Jaye Frank: 35:07

I'm very active on LinkedIn, you can find me under Tara J. Frank. And I'm also on Twitter, though less active there. My website is Tara J frank.com. And that's where people go when they want to have me speak to their organization or do leadership, you know, inclusive leadership capacity building, or any of those other fun things that I do?

Kyle Roed: 35:30

Absolutely. We'll have all those links in the show notes. So open up your podcast player, click in there. We'll also have a link to the book. Again, the book is the way makers clearing the path to workplace equity. With competence and confidence. Go grab a copy today. It's it's, it's going to help you get better. So, really appreciate the time today, Tara, it's been a wonderful conversation. And thank you so much.

Tara Jaye Frank: 35:53

Great. Thank you. I appreciate you. Thanks for inviting me.

Kyle Roed: 35:57

Thank you. All right. That does it for the rebel HR podcast. Big thank you to our guests. Follow us on Facebook at rebel HR podcast, Twitter, at rebel HR guy, or see our website at rebel human resources.com. The views and opinions expressed by rebel HR podcast are those the authors and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position. Any of the organizations that we represent No animals were harmed during the filming of this podcast. Maybe