Projjal Ghatak: 0:00

In many ways was no brainer based on my experience. It takes a quite a bit of courage to say I can fix this from scratch when many people have tried and failed. But the pain for me was fairly obvious when I left Uber and I thought about what's next. This pain was hard to get rid of. I also was never enamored about being a founder. And I knew if I wanted to be a founder, it had to be about solving real pain and there was definitely real pain here.

Kyle Roed: 0:23

This is the rebel HR Podcast, the podcast where we talk to HR innovators about all things people leadership. If you're looking for places to find about new ways to think about the world of work, this is the podcast for you. Please subscribe from your favorite podcast listening platform today. And leave us a review revelon HR rebels Welcome back, rebel HR listeners extremely excited for the conversation today. With us we have projectile guitar, the CEO and co founder at on loop he's currently coming to us from Singapore really appreciate him spending his evening with us today. He founded on loop in 2020, to create a category called collaborative team development to fundamentally reinvent how hybrid teams are assessed and developed. And we're going to be talking all about maybe some provocative things to think about as we think about development and Performance Management for us all. Welcome to the podcast.

Projjal Ghatak: 1:21

Thank you for having me, Carla Malik.

Kyle Roed: 1:24

extremely excited to have you here. I'm also excited to have Molly Bradesco with us today. Who will bring the heat I'm sure, welcome. Thanks.

Projjal Ghatak: 1:32

No pressure.

Kyle Roed: 1:35

All right. So we had a wonderful dialogue before I hit record here. And so I think I just want to start with understanding a little bit more about what prompted you to found on loop.

Projjal Ghatak: 1:49

Yeah, so, so on loop was pretty much born purely out of personal pain. And I spent zero time in HR. But I spent a lot of time leading and managing teams around the world in a different context. And, and, you know, a ITAR, in many ways is a little bit misunderstood because it tries to do feeders and managers jobs through a proxy. But when I spend time at business school, what we were told over and over again, that 90% of your job was to hire room and find talent. And, and a lot of leaders on the world will tell you that people and talent are everyday. And I was I was underwhelmed by the products and processes that I was a recipient of, throughout my entire career, being in tech, or in finance, in value, consolidate and sell that I had the conviction, the drive, and the passion to try and rethink a few things from scratch. And look at them differently fundamentally.

Kyle Roed: 2:58

I think it's it's, it's, it's fascinating. I tend to agree with your experience, personally, where you know, we talk about these things. But we don't necessarily have the right tools to work on them. And so I'm curious, as you were thinking about kind of the pain points that you mentioned. And and in some of the gaps, what were some of the kind of the key gaps that you realized, Hey, this is missing. And this is a problem that I can help solve.

Projjal Ghatak: 3:31

Yeah, I think, you know, founders talk about funding stories. And there's one particular situation that I think had a pretty big influence on me pulling the trigger on founding on loop. And that was me being sent up to the Philippines to go run over its Philippines business. And, and inheriting a team of 40 people, two weeks before calibrations and performance reviews. And OSI cycle kicked off, a bunch of people spend a ton of time writing a lot of things which had zero skin value. And you and you walk into a calibration room and you decide who gets promoted, and who gets bonuses after a lot of time has been spent. But decisions get based on who's the loudest voice in the room and who screams the loudest. And so and so we had a process here that took up a ton of time. And and managers went dark for weeks writing for 2530 reviews, but when you make decisions, they were still extremely biased. And, and and four weeks before the review. You had people being hyper anxious be it being an icy being around will I be Sally sort of reviewed and managers be anxious about oh my god, I will write these things from scratch. I don't remember what happened the last six months. And so and if you talk about the word performance management do every knowledge worker in the world Oh, you will get universal hate. And so and so, you know, I think that when I got subjected to a particular process, you're on your twice a year, and absolutely hated every time and that God collaborated with everyone has bought, do you know that that's the you that is the the ripeness of any real startup is a real problem, unfortunately, many startups in the world solving problems that don't exist. And here's a problem that a billion people size, and it's ripe for disruption. And so, you know, in many ways was no brainer based on my experience. But, you know, as I've got into it, obviously, it takes a quite a bit of courage to say I can fix this from scratch when many people have tried and failed, and that's where the juices, but, but the pain for me was fairly obvious. And when I left Uber, and I thought about what's next, this pain was hard to get rid of. I also was never enamored about being a founder. And I knew if I wanted to be a founder, it had to be about solving real pain, and there was definitely real pain here. Yeah, I think that pain is very real. Actually, our focus group was only employees one time asking them the exact same questions like what what do you think of our performance management system and spot on it same feedback that that I received? And I think a lot of times in HR, we don't think we don't put ourselves in that, in that. In those shoes, I guess, to really understand those pain points. No, I appreciate you saying that. And which is why like, and that's why I tell people is that if for me to expect to be solved this problem, I have too many actually serves the end user, right. Because if a patient comes up to me and says, I need brain surgery, I'm not going to operate on that person's brother, I'm gonna operate on that person. And, and real problems in work and be it zoom or slack or notion or Trello, or every, every innovative tech product we talked about as being created when people read and many athletes serve yet use it. And so and so for me, I serve managers, leaders and their teams to effectively build a process that makes them fall in love with things like goals and feedback, which performance management tries to emulate in a way that people hate. And, and, and our job is to build a different process that does the same things in a way that people love.

Kyle Roed: 7:37

I do hate writing performance evals. It's not fun.

Projjal Ghatak: 7:43

I'd love it. You guys are crazy.

Kyle Roed: 7:46

Mostly I hate writing for myself, like the whole self review thing. And we could probably dig into that. But it's kind of like, what did I do? Like? All you remember is like what happened last month? You know? And it's like, oh, yeah, I did something back in February. But I don't even remember what it was because it was like three years ago. So So I want to I want to dig into this a little bit, because I'm curious, maybe on a more of a tactical level, how this works, because, you know, I think what we've what we've grown up in HR thinking is, well, the best way to have an objective review process is to make sure that you have a you know, a self eval and people can share their feedback, and then you have a manager share their feedback, and then you have this calibration discussion between managers. And then that calibration Well, thank goodness, we've got that because now we've got this really good bell curve of objectivity related to performance evaluations, but at the heart of it, you already hit on this, it's still extremely subjective. It's how the managers feeling, what's how the employees feeling, it's how extroverted versus introverted people are. And you know, there's just some inherent bias in a system like that. So, as you were building on loop and thinking about this, how did you address some of those some of those challenges within your tool?

Projjal Ghatak: 9:05

Yeah, so you're all the themes you spoke about so so around making sure that there is enough input from enough sources, that there is active dialogue around what that really means. None of those things are incorrect. And all those things that need to be replaced, what what needs to change is, what data those conversations are happening with. And, and the data that those conversations are happening with today are extremely written with recency bias, as you spoke, right? And have zero scalability in the data. Right? So So what our product does, is it gives teams a product, which is fundamentally a mobile app also sits within slack and web but every habit forming product in this world is on your phone. And if you're trying to inculcate a regular habit, it needs to be on your phone area it used to be other places do but it has to be there. And every input into the product is in the form of a CAPTCHA. And what a CAPTCHA aspires to do is understand the situation behavior impact in that situation, but also, what particular type of goal that person was working on that it's tacked to, and also what behaviors came out in that interaction. And the way we think about people's strengths and weaknesses, what is often called the harrow, which gets discussed in calibrations is about what behaviors come up the most often. And, and typically, if if 40 people or 30, people have made capsules on the person, and the most commonly occurring tag in the celebrated category is super inspirational. The person's probably pretty inspirational. And, and you don't need to ask eight people. Hey, how would you read Molly on Kirby to inspire? And that's a completely flawed way of thinking about this. It's about how, how many times something comes up. And if many people say the exact same thing over again, all the speed aren't good at it. In the in the same way, if people keep saying that, from attention to detail perspective, Molly could get better. Yeah, that's that's an area she probably should improve on or is a is a blind spot that she needs to manage by firing for someone who can do that. And when we walk into calibration room, and Kyle's top tag is growth mindset and responsive to feedback. And Molly's are super inspirational, we can bet have a debate or write conversation around in their respective roles, which one matters more. But if there are eight paragraphs on either of you, which gives you those capability, you can't have an objective conversation, and then you depend on the dial, which gives allowance. Right? So that's that one. Right? So it's about it's about frequency, and how you skill it. The second is how goals get set, right. And so if you work in most organizations, people who run towards product, and products and projects that are easy to measure, and they'll have visibility. And they will run away from contexts and products that are hard to measure and have no visibility. But often the most important work in organizations is not it's not sexy. But because we think about people's goals in rigid systems, like OKRs, people run towards a stop, that's excellent. And so and so we think about people's goals as targets that need to reach projects need to complete and behavioral and hard skills they need to get better at. And mean to think about each person's word, as a holistic understanding of those four things. And not rigid frameworks that make measurable work is seen better than others. And so we tried to get a lot cleaner about really understanding how how each person evolves. And then and then how you sort of compiled and summarize that input, to just have better conversations around people outcomes. And then because we know that there has to be a system of record, or review to be rookie, we're using the latest in generative AI and products like GPT, three to, to help AI write that out in human likewise, and, and that technology is only going to get better, there's a company called Jasper, that that just raise the 140 $5 million, series A that helps people write marketing copy. And you don't want when a system is analyzed every Facebook active ad in the world, it writes marketing copy better than human beings in most cases. And analysts system has read employee reviews in every possible way and has a describe it, but it can then composite into a great paragraph that saves people time from writing the back. And gives them time to have the real conversations to propel things forward. And, and that's just a much better way to think about how we develop people versus focusing the energy on on writing prose that may not actually get used the right way for the persons who

Kyle Roed: 14:22

have been there, wrote that comment that just made perfect sense when I wrote it, and then I sit down and do the review. And I'm like, what was I trying to say? So this is fascinating, I think, and I think one of the things that's really compelling about this is, you know, it's hitting on one of the biggest challenges of HR is that, you know, this is, you know, you use the term rigid framework, you know, our jobs are not linear, you know, cause and effect in many cases is almost impossible to identify because we're dealing with human behavior. You know, it's like it's like quantum physics versus like eighth grade algebra, right? You know, there's not always a clear cause and effect, and sometimes because of the complexity of somebody's motivations and tendencies and behaviors, etcetera, you know, writing these reviews are just really freaking hard. Sometimes, and especially if you don't have good, good data, so and I appreciate you picking good, good adjectives from all in myself that was that helped my ego feel good about that.

Projjal Ghatak: 15:21

100% agree. Yeah,

Kyle Roed: 15:23

it was good growth mindset. I liked that one. That was good. One, one thing I'm curious to understand a little bit more about is, so you're talking about like this, this, this habit forming on the on the phone and kind of and, you know, what I heard, I want to understand this, I think I get it, but I want to understand a little bit more, what I heard is, it's almost like you're turning, like a 360 feedback or like a consistent, like, you know, peer review, maybe manage the review process into something that has, you know, it's almost gamified a little bit, and it's like, something like is that is that the idea here?

Projjal Ghatak: 16:01

So I don't like the word terrified. And, and, and listen, Instagram is not a game, your your mailbox is not a game. LinkedIn is not a game. And the products you use the most often your product or not again, but you do go back to them. And that's because it gives you a reward every time you go back to them. And, and you also know what enrichment from the product looks like so so that's so addictive games give you a target and give you a reward as a result of using them more often. And the place that the place that we get quite a bit of inspiration from is from fitness. And fitness products have gotten a lot better in the last seven or eight years. And that's because it gave people tangible targets to hit so so when the Fitbit said hit 10,000 statue, you started walking a whole lot, right? When the Apple Watch said close three raise to like, I want to close those three rates. And then without that, it's hard to give people outcomes around things that are hard to measure and things like, you know, doing feedback more regularly or setting goals the right way, when when when there's fires, burnings and things to do and tasks to finish, it's hard to see the tangibility of doing those days more often. And so and so, you know, we haven't fully realized this vision yet. But the direction we're going is how can we give people a tangible outcomes here to, to sort of hold their head on to say, Okay, if I do these three things better, in the next week or two, my team is going to be functioning better and have more clarity and develop better and therefore I should do it. Because, you know, many, many high performing managers are goal oriented people. And so you got to give them specific reasons to go do a certain thing. And we just haven't done that around products and processes that that made people better. We've done that around getting work done. We haven't done that when it comes to gaming. And so people deserve products that sort of parity in, in making it as enriching and as rewarding to drive fetal performance of people that will up and alongside just getting tasks done. I think that's one. And I think the second thing is, you know, with with the move to hybrid, and maybe we'll talk about this, I think I think leaders and and teams alike are just a lot more anxious about are they on track? And are they moving on the right direction? Or do they have the right clarity on what they're working towards? And so we're working pretty hard to figure out how we can help managers better and capsulate and measure, hey, does this team member a has clarity on on where they're going and, and, and what interventions they can make, to give them more clarity and sort of mimic some of the in person loops that we had through a product that makes it easier? So instead of checking slack messages or email messages just for what activity happened, can that be compounded in a way to tell people actually Molly's great because she's she's flying and and progressing and and kicking ass on her objectives and getting the right feedback. But maybe Kyle's not quite sure what he should do next week then. And maybe it's check in and see what to do. So you know, I What is super exciting to me is that people haven't figured out hybrid work and the technology trend doesn't work for hybrid teams period. And with the current sort of technology in personal work is better than hybrid work. But hybrid work is here to stay. And we've got to build better technology to make that work for teams. And we see us as part of that solution to make that future better. I think a lot of executives They're concerned about how they review performance management in the hybrid workspace. But before we go there, I'm curious about your your thoughts on timeframes of performance management performance reviews, because that's been a really hot topic lately. You know, is one once a year, does that make sense? Or does it not? Like, what are your thoughts? Question is what are you trying to achieve out of it? Right. So I don't I don't think you're going to give bonuses out on a continuous basis. Are you going to change? pay scales on a continuous basis? Right. So So I think it goes back to what is the objective here? So when it comes to particular changes in compensation? I think that needs to be a periodic review. Right. So and in most cases, that's that's probably once a year, where you do a major review on how people are compensated, where they get promoted, where they get, whether they your finances, etc, right? And two, is, aren't people moving the right way to move the business forward? Right? Well, where there's a, there's a, there's a very critical linkage between the two. And most businesses around the world are running on a quarterly rhythm. Right, and so says, so from that perspective, that should essentially be a quarterly understanding of Israel organization, running productively to meet the outcomes of the business, because if it is in, then you might have to make some personal changes, changes change who you hire, affect what your roadmap looks like, around or compensation. And then there is sort of is each person achieving the full potential and moving the right way. And that's probably a monthly cadence on making sure that that amongst the one on one is spent time on really understanding of people on track, are they getting the right feedback? Are they growing? So so so it's, it's it's a question of what you tried to achieve with it, which is why I think the concept of Performance Management is broken. I think people's goals, feedback developer needs to reveal a different organizational cadences, depending on what you're doing with that information. And what is the outcome of that conversation?

Unknown: 22:16

We'll be back after a quick break. Hey, I'm Chad, and I'm a visual storyteller at Basecamp. I make videos about all the cool features that Basecamp offers, which involves writing scripts, where did I save that draft? Again, collaborating with colleagues, this is due by yesterday, got it and getting feedback from my team where his notes in an email or a chat, or was that a dream? That's a lot to keep track of a Basecamp keeps my team organized. That's where we store files scheduled to dues receive feedback, and basically manage everything Basecamp helps millions of teams keep their projects on track, including ours, want to see how Basecamp can help with your team? Go to basecamp.com/chat? That's basecamp.com/chat? Where did I leave my camera again? Found it?

Kyle Roed: 23:04

Yeah, it's really interesting, I think, you know, from, from my standpoint, one of the challenges I struggle with is kind of the, you know, how much feedback do I give? And how much space do I give, you know, as a leader, and as I have people who are, you know, maybe struggling? There's some people that are, you know, like, if they could ask me a question every day about something they're working on, they would I, you know, I think you mentioned earlier, kind of that the people that crave the feedback, you know, there's some that do, and there's some that are like, you know, the less you talk to me, the better I feel. I try not to take that personally, but you know, there are someone else on my team. But, you know, I think it's really, it's really interesting to think about it, you know, in a little bit of a different context, as far as what, what the individual actually needs. And then I think, you know, to think about this in the context of the hybrid work model, which my team's hybrid, I'm hybrid. I'm also traveling all the time. So I've always been hybrid. I'm here, there, I'm everywhere. So, you know, I'm curious to understand a little bit more about how, you know how this addresses kind of that problem of, you know, making sure that you have consistent performance management and like real conversations, not like, Hey, how's it going? Okay, good. You know, we'll talk next week, like, like, how does, how do we translate some of the, you know, I think all of us want to give good feedback, have high functioning teams, make sure we're develop our people. But it's hard in this environment. So how can we address that hybrid problem?

Projjal Ghatak: 24:35

So I think, I think, first is the connotation of feedback. Now, there's an assumption that feedback is inherently constructive. But, but every piece of research that you'll see will tell you that feedback on your core strengths is more valuable than constructive. Feedback is is importantly, but being able to identify your true superpowers is actually More in sample than the other. And research also shows that people are very good at giving celebratory feedback or strengths based feedback. And people are bad at receiving strengths based feedback. And on the other hand, people are bad at giving constructive or improvement feedback. And people actually very good and receive a constructive feedback, especially if there's a trusted relationship. On either side, I think a lot of the core issue that we see is around knowing the right language, and knowing the right delivery, without confusing the emotion, with the substance of what actually needs to happen. So in our product, when someone makes celebratory feedback, the product really pushes them to share it right away. And actually, while the biggest dopamine heads have been sealed, the product is someone receiving a shed capture rats are making a salad barrel. On the other hand, when someone makes it improve, we actually don't let them share it through the phone. And we actually cause and say, Hey, improvement feedback is data shown in person. However, we highly encourage people to write it down in the moment because it does two things. One, it takes the muscle away. So if the frustration goes away, write it down. And then our behavioral tags help we actually think about what was the behavior that could have been better? It's not that x person sucks, it is that x person was not hyper responsive after the meeting. Right? And, and, and if you're stalking, this person sucks, I don't know what to do that that, that experience does not go well. But if it is, Listen, this behavior of yours doesn't serve you well, that these are conversation. I am bloody disorganized, and I own it now. Right. And, and, and, and there's no shame about it. We're all flawed as human beings. And that's okay. Right? I've made the other strengths that I can focus on. But that should not be a binary judgment of am I good? Or am I bad? Right? Am I a high performer, a low performer, it isn't. It is a more nuanced understanding of, of what you supervise and blind spots are and, and with the product, we help people drive through that nuance in a way with the inputs that we ask for. So that when it's delivered, is delivered in a way that actually feels like it's, it's helpful for the other person worse, is loaded with emotion, and use a combination of writing it down in a product and delivering it separately. And, you know, like, we're working more and more with teams, where we'll help them to experience and run workshops, where we will help lead that make that sort of roleplay better to teach through. But for me, personally, it's really helped me as a leader to write improve feedback in the moment to also release it, but then really think about, okay, what was the actual behavior that the person could have done better versus my frustration? Or does that? Does that answer the question?

Kyle Roed: 28:08

Yes, I think I think it's, I like the way you frame it, you know, and I think this is one of the areas that I certainly, I tend to get involved in is when, when a leader is trying to deal with the emotional reaction to performance versus the actual substance of the actual behavior that has kind of the root of the performance issue. And you know, I think, I think it's, you know, it's fascinating, again, that all feedback is not the same I think that's another really important point that I wanted to hit on again, you know, the fact that like that immediate in the moment recognition the dopamine hit the endorphins, the like excitement, the you know, the the warm glow that an employee can get from that should be shared, you know, on the spot, but, you know, the, the, the cold hammer of negative feedback, maybe maybe it's not great to do that on the spot every single note unless No, you want to be a tyrant.

Projjal Ghatak: 29:07

We we strongly believes that radical transparency kills psychological safety. And this is coming from a hard charging co leader who's not all warm hugs and fuzzy about this, but it is the receptivity to feedback is very important in how it lands and which is why I'm very vocally against radical transparency and and leaders who who believe that telling people at a meeting that they suck because X, Y and Z wrong in front of their peers is actually a good thing for the organization. It is both in the short term but they all these after 18 months, and maybe that's one way of looking at culture. I don't put it lightly let's write readable culture, and I think are pretty hardcore hard charging leader and I still don't think it's a good way to go.

Kyle Roed: 30:00

Yeah, that sounds a little harsh. Yeah, a little bit. Absolutely. So, you know, one of the things that I think is really interesting about the entire conversation here is, you know, we're talking about something that can be really difficult to do. We're talking about a tool and a way to do it. But what I'm hearing is kind of the underlying approach here is to add a little bit of kind of personal humanity into the, into this process so that it's not a check the box. Let's rank everybody against each other, let's force everybody to do the same thing. Am I am I am I on the right track here? In my in my understanding division?

Projjal Ghatak: 30:50

I think that'd be a good job here. Because I so part, one of my very first slides around, sort of our early pitch decks talked about how we've given managers rules that chip deck HR check boxes, and not rules that mimic the human experience of thinking about developing the teams the right and so and the words that the press picked up all Iran were bite sized and approachable, and, and how do we bring more approachability towards an experience that can feel cold, because if something feels cold, people run away from it, but if it feels approachable, people do it and and what was very interesting is we found a lot of traction with creative agencies, and late and late creative folks with our product early on, which was, which was not something that I expected. But that's because they tend to log in after mindset to products, which actually I think is super important. When you think about disruption, and different function, the different origins have different proportions of early adopters. And and that's and that's a true thing when it comes to startups. And and there's a reason why starts to Silicon Valley that that sort of pitch to engineers and designers do really well because that's a very right, high concentration of, of early adopter, folks. And then, and then, and then be, you know, it's a people business in the creative industry, where it's about sort of quantifying stuff that's hard to qualify. So there's a there's an emphasis on developing people right then. And let the same thing as, as working out and eating well, and, and sleeping well, like this last single principle tonight that those things are good things to do. But if you don't give people ways to do it in a way that feels enjoyable and measurable, the fact that no matter how rare it is for them, and that's why, despite a gazillion one webinars on how to give and receive feedback, it still doesn't get better. And that's because if you don't give people the right age to do it better, no matter how much you preach it, it's not going to happen. If you tell people to say you run a triathlon, but then give them wooden shoes to run the backward run. No matter how many times you tell them this is how you run a triplex. So we've got to stop preaching. And you got to give people the right aid so that they can actually do it the right way. But

Kyle Roed: 33:28

But yeah, I gotta go, I'm gonna wear wooden shoes. Next try idea.

Projjal Ghatak: 33:31

Hey, what do you what do you write Kyle, as in what you're trying to do there is, is changed the philosophy and build a tech product and is able to mimic that the right way. And let people experience that every day without a consultant coming and telling you that

Kyle Roed: 33:47

you absolutely have it. Big. It's fascinating, fascinating approach, certainly a tool that I think is worth, we're checking out and I really appreciate the kind of the dialogue and the in the difference in thinking about one of these things that we are always essentially forced to do, at least every year. So with that being said, We're gonna shift gears, we're gonna go into the rebel HR flash round. So question number one, where does HR need to rebell

Projjal Ghatak: 34:15

in Minneapolis survey the end user? Yeah, I think that's my biggest takeaway from this as I think so many times that HR would just do what we've always done, right? And it's, we really need to step back and think about who who does this for what this is doing and what our business needs. So absolutely agree with that.

Kyle Roed: 34:38

Couldn't agree more. All right, question number two, who should Arliss Who should we be listening to?

Projjal Ghatak: 34:45

Yeah, so there's a guy called Michael Jarvis who runs a podcast called Finding mastery. And I find that there is a pretty large diversity of speakers on his podcast, where it spans business performance and just human focus I'm into general. And so I find that deeply enriching and inspiring. I think podcasts in general are amazing, medium. And I have a way better founder for that medium, and I'm very thankful for it. So thank you for the work that you guys do.

Kyle Roed: 35:17

Well, appreciate that. And appreciate you spending some time with us today. All right, last question. How can our listeners connect with you and learn more?

Projjal Ghatak: 35:24

Yeah, it's on loop.com. And my name is John Carter, then it's you. It's your Google on looping find me. And so LinkedIn is probably easy. And I check every single LinkedIn message that comes to our little mailbox or if you find me it's not a cold inbound from someone selling something to me with my name and correct.

Kyle Roed: 35:44

Yeah, I know that feeling. Alright, and yeah, I press all it's just been absolutely wonderful. Talking through this with you. I really appreciate you taking this on and helping us try to solve this problem. It's a it's a problem I've I've seen I know Molly's seen it through the course of my career. And I'm excited to dig in myself and learn more. So really appreciate spend the time with us today.

Projjal Ghatak: 36:08

Know that you do and I hope that candor shows that I actually care about solving them. And conditions like this only get me more excited going, sir. So thank you for having me.

Kyle Roed: 36:21

Thank you. All right. That does it for the rebel HR podcast. Big thank you to our guests. Follow us on Facebook at rebel HR podcast, Twitter, at rebel HR guy, or see our website at rebel human resources.com. The views and opinions expressed by rebel HR podcast are those the authors and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of any of the organizations that we represent. No animals were harmed during the filming of this podcast. Baby