RHR 148: Communicate with Courage with Michelle Gladieux

Michelle Gladieux: 0:00

We need to stop playing second fiddle to operations or allowing operations to put us in a second fiddle position. But we have to learn about operation and understand the hard parts of that that often people persons don't get as interested in. So learn the profit and loss. Learn about the scrap metal rate. Learn about the things going on in your organization that aren't HR and demonstrate your knowledge and your interest in learning and then HR can start to get more respect.

Kyle Roed: 0:26

This is the rebel HR Podcast, the podcast where we talk to HR innovators about all things people leadership. If you're looking for places to find about new ways to think about the world of work, this is the podcast for you. Please subscribe my favorite podcast listening platform today. And leave us a review revelon HR rebels Welcome back, HR rebels extremely excited for our guests. With us today we have Michelle Gladio. She is the author of communicate with courage, taking risks to overcome the four hidden challenges. She's also president of Gladio consulting and an accomplished rock bassist who also likes Billy Idol. Welcome to the show.

Michelle Gladieux: 1:09

Thank you, I am not going to accomplish rock bases that I have been performing two or three songs once in a while on weekends for many years.

Kyle Roed: 1:17

I love it. You know, we were just talking about my podcast cover art. And we have the link between Billy Idol and ourselves. So this is gonna be a fun show. We also have with us, Molly, badass Molly, welcome back. Thank you so much for CO hosting.

Molly Burdess: 1:31

Hey, guys, gonna be fun.

Kyle Roed: 1:33

All right. So before I hit record, we were talking a little bit just getting to know each other. And one one of my comments was I get a lot of guest requests. And I'm always looking for the content that's right for for my listeners. And, you know, when I saw the title of your book, and I started to understand the content and the message that you are sharing, I thought it was perfect. So my first question is What motivated you to write a book about communicating with courage?

Michelle Gladieux: 1:58

Great question. My consulting company. We're based here in Fort Wayne, Indiana, with employees throughout the Midwest, and we train and coach nationally in topics related to human resources like conflict management, business, writing, and giving and receiving feedback are meaningful performance reviews, these kinds of things. So I've been a practitioner, gosh, probably for 25 years and right out of college at Purdue in West Lafayette. Where I studied Organizational Psychology, I started teaching as a young adjunct prof and always just taking in information, and observing the students and clients I cared about as the community and watching it make or break their health and happiness in life. So there are a lot of important things we can try to improve upon in our lives. I believe that if we look at how we communicate, and better that we're better HR pros, were better in any walk of life. And it also helps us personally. So after many years of procrastination, to be honest, the last four years, four and a half years, I got serious about it, and started putting together this, I call it a short paperback, less than 200 words, but it's got some of my best pro moves, my best tips, and I wish more people had access to

Kyle Roed: 3:15

I love that. And I think, you know, it's one of those things that I think especially as an HR professional, it's, it's almost like table stakes. Like, if you're gonna have success as an HR professional, you have to have communication skills. But so often, it's just, it's just assumed that you have them because you you like people, or you're you know, or you get along with others, that doesn't necessarily mean that you're skilled at communication. And believe me, I have kind of learned that the hard way. One of the things I like about the book, and the way that you structured it, is that you've really, you've kind of broken it down into, you know, four, four main obstacles that keep us from being the best communicators, that we can be. And so, you know, I'm just kind of curious to understand, first of all, how did you discover that framework? And then how did you kind of, you know, how did you hone in on those specific four,

Michelle Gladieux: 4:12

I have to credit my publisher, specifically geven, BK publishers, who received my full manuscript posle and called me to talk about it, I thought it was strong content, but believed there would be a unifying theme if I really pushed myself to discover it. So after some positive conflict, you know, that knee saying, I can't believe you call me and tell me You think I'm a good writer, but you don't want the book and what and he's like, Well, we might work the book, can you show us the theme? What is keeping people bad? And I was like, Well, you know, my, my clients, often they hide, you know, they don't want to show us where they might be weak and nothing makes you weaker than trying to cover a weakness. And we went through those hiding, defining, rationalizing and settling for good enough and And I've, I'm engaged in one of them per day, at least probably usually. So this is a long game. And if our readers and listeners can bring the courage to the forefront to admit that they lean on these coping strategies that actually hold us back and bring some humor, as you and Molly did to this podcast every time you record a little self love a little not taking ourselves so, so seriously, then we can look at what we can do better and just inch toward it. And you know, if we're 30 today, by the time we're 40, We sure will be glad that we did that or still in any age, I think it 85 and 90, you know, for blessed to still be alive and kicking. We need to be looking at how we give and receive feedback and how we send and listen to messages. I hope that's I hope that answers your question. If not, let me know.

Molly Burdess: 5:53

Do you find that maybe one of the four is more relevant, and most people

Michelle Gladieux: 6:03

know, because the folks that I coach, for example, some may need to find their voice and to be encouraged, or offered a goal plan where they speak in every meeting, they say at least something mildly. They offer a piece of praise, or a question or an insight or observation. And others who sit right next to them also participating in executive coaching programs with us need to learn to think about what percentage of the time they should be talking in a meeting and speak rest to allow others the floor. So not yet I again, this is in my consulting and teaching life, this information has only come together in recent years. But at this point, I haven't found that Hey, watch out because, you know most of us are rationalizing my friends who are more pessimistic in personality, they would say hold up. It's called realism. Right? I might view them as more pessimistic, they have a lot of rationale as to why it might not be worth trying, that person won't listen, they don't care. Even if the person won't listen, and they don't care. I say let's develop some great communication and try. So I'd say maybe those of us who lean towards pessimism might rationalize more. Those of us who don't have as healthy self esteem as might be desirable, probably settle or hide a little bit more. And that definers I think it was sharp wit, I think of an analytical personality, I think of black and white thinking. And they've got to have figured out many of those folks on that their best days. And you you know, you aren't feeling you do feel like you might be talking to a wall if you try to offer feedback. So I think we all fall into all four. That's an excellent question. TBD. Right, check me in a couple of let's check each other back in a couple years and see if there's been a theme. There's good deal, he must important, Molly is that we figured out which one we need to work on most get get going on it. And this, again, is a short book. So a couple of pages per chapter with an exercise. At the end of each chapter, something anybody in any type of line of work or walk of life could go try out whether they want to tell someone, hey, I'm working on this about myself, I'm doing this exercise or keep it on the low and just move through the world trying some of these exercises. It benefits. I think body mind soul and count. Probably. There is truth there. Right?

Kyle Roed: 8:41

There's a reason that that many senior executives are effective communicators, right? I mean, those those two things go hand in hand. You know, it's,

Michelle Gladieux: 8:50

it's fascinating, or they're protected, and they have someone propping them

Kyle Roed: 8:53

up? Could be Yeah, yeah, you get it get to a point where you can have a really good PR person, right? And then you just don't say anything unless they vet it first. You know, it's, it's, it's fascinating. I was I was reflecting as I was preparing for this, and I was looking at these four categories, which again, are hiding, defining, rationalizing and settling. And as I as I was looking at those, you know, for me, it's kind of like, you know, this, it, it kind of describes the story of my, my journey. And I started out being afraid of exposing a weakness and so never wanted to admit, oh, I don't know. And then when I figured out Oh, when I actually admit, I don't know, or I ask us stupid question. But somebody else was thinking and it's actually more effective. And it actually makes you better and makes the meeting more effective. Right. And so it's, it's, you know, like I said earlier, sometimes I had to learn this, this stuff the hard way. So I'm curious as we are reflecting on ourselves and on our own communication and, and really kind of thinking about, you know, ourselves what, what is what does that common theme that you see in individuals who are able to get better, you know, what, what does it take, for somebody to truly be reflective, truly be courageous and improve their communication?

Michelle Gladieux: 10:10

Well, I hope it's me, right, I hope it's both of you that can do that, that secret ingredient probably has to do with persistence. So we choose a direction for our goal as communicators, and then we're able to, we fall off the horse, we get back on the horse. So we are able to stick with it. And it has to do with an intensity or focus, intensity of action. So if I want to be a better public speaker, the first time my hands shake, the next time when the handshake lasts, but my face turns red. And I've been there with a lot of students and clients who that journey, those who stick with it are rewarded with credibility. So I'd say probably persistence, a stick to itiveness that we might call intensity and emotional intelligence is super helpful as well. And that's an interesting term that has only been defined in our profession, HR Organizational Behavior since the 90s. So this is new in our lifetimes. And it's an understanding of how we feel and, and what generate those feelings and how we can manage our own feelings. So we don't. So we don't create a dysfunctional communication with someone else, or we're just brave enough to go back and apologize. When we do mess up. I love that word practice, then, one of my favorite.

Molly Burdess: 11:33

I say to me, I definitely read your mind Jerry, I feel like I've never had real good self awareness of my communication. And if it was effective, because that wasn't so for me personally, like I Oh, good for you that you could, you know, kind of figure out where you're at. But I actually had to ask my team and ask those around me like, Okay, what could I have done better? Was I clear? Like, what did you take away from that. And that's kind of how I came to realize some of my weaknesses with my communication

Michelle Gladieux: 12:01

are very brave of you, we actually have created again, a pandemic sort of pivot or twist, we couldn't see as many clients in person, we started designing tools and putting them out on our website for free. The website is Gladio consulting.com. Sorry about the tough spelling, it's a French last name, but glad i e, u x, like X Ray consulting.com. If you surf out to our website, you'll see free tools. As one of the buttons, you can click and down files a bunch of different opportunities that we could each here as with friends, family, or coworkers, to find out how we're perceived and to learn more about communication, one of those things is called the feedback challenge. And it's a simple form that you can hand or email to someone that says, I'm paraphrasing, says, I'd like to know how you think I communicate, you know, both what you enjoy about working with me and something you think I might be able to do better. And then the folks can type it in or writing, return it to you, you knowing who it came from, is kind of the point. And then hopefully, they've given you a piece of praise and a piece of constructive criticism, because a little, you know, a little sugar makes the medicine go down easier. But mindful team does this. frequently. Our clients are doing it and coaching programs, and you'd be surprised at what you hear. It scares me a little bit each time I do it. Because I worry about what these people that I care so much about will say, so far, no one has taken the opportunity to gut punch or anything, they've been pretty diplomatic. Because of that exercise that you Molly already just did organically. I have learned that I'm pretty good at talking. But a lot of people wish I would listen better, especially when I disagree. I can't deny it. There's a kind of a passionate feeling that comes over me when I'm in conflict. And I don't buy what the other person is saying or I'm I feel like I'm not being heard. And I start to be overly competitive. And I'm working on reining it in. But I didn't know that. People saw that quite so much until I did that feedback challenge. What did you hear? And I'm interested, Molly, what? What was like one of the best takeaways, I'm pro

Molly Burdess: 14:10

guys who've been wild because I've done this, um, I think the biggest thing of people wanted me to talk more. So that was probably one of my biggest takeaways, like people are curious and want to know what when I think so that was probably one of my biggest lessons early on.

Michelle Gladieux: 14:27

So it relates to confidence, and you deserve to have it and when you have somebody invited you to be more verbal. It's kind of like, oh, people think that when I talk notice something that could be useful, which is very true. Yep. So that's

Molly Burdess: 14:40

great. We'll put that I took that and then I started talking way too much. And then they told me that I was overpowering them with all my ideas and I needed to rein it back.

Michelle Gladieux: 14:48

Hopefully normal, totally normal. So once we set a goal, we tend to swing the pendulum in the other direction and then I'm here then it's got to be done. That's how you learn to walk, swim, talk, tie your shoes. everything, you know, we tend to go a little bit overboard, and then we come back to center. But as loud as the three of us were getting to know one another, you can tell that Kyle and I are verbal, and expressive, more so than you, you are more humble it probably more considerate and thoughtful as a communicator. So when, especially when you're dealing with personalities that are quite confident or more assertive, we want to make sure our listeners know that that's when you turn up the assertiveness, right to be heard. And that's also how you gain respect from those who are not like you. Not that that's fair. But is life fair? No. So there's a lot of proofs in the book that I've just kind of gleaned over the years. Like that's a thing that type of personality does. And there's a way to get around that.

Kyle Roed: 15:47

I'm getting such a light bulb right now. Because I'm like, oh, yeah, this is why I wanted Molly to co host a podcast with me because she got asked great questions really reflective, super considerate. I'm like loud, obnoxious, the person that are used when somebody you know, has a conflicting disagreement, you know, with me or whatever

Michelle Gladieux: 16:04

grow, we can grow. Are you saying like, hi, like, he's saying, like, and I stand in that and will always be so are insane, you're willing to look at it? No,

Kyle Roed: 16:11

no, I'm always wanting to be self reflective. It's, it's, it's actually been a derailleur for me, in many aspects of my career where I've, you know, I've, I've had interactions, and I've left the interaction. And I've thought, Gosh, I was a jerk, or, you know, I just really didn't listen to the problem I was trying to make create a solution to something when I didn't even understand the problem fully and and it's slowed progress. And so yeah, for me, like, that's, that's what I'm working on is continuing to be that reflective, listening empathetic person, when I just want to shout my ideas from the rooftops.

Michelle Gladieux: 16:48

I hear you and I feel you, I have empathy for you, I want to make a point there that we can also know that Kyle, your intention is appearing, you're trying to save people time, you already know the story, they don't have to repeat themselves, because you are the solution that, you know, we don't come from a place where we're trying to be damaging, but we we that are trying to be brave and communicate with courage, have to really look in the mirror and go, Yeah, that's the ugly, there's the dark side of that. And there is the dark side of every strength that you have, as a communicator, there is a dark side, we cannot pretend there isn't. And be as effective as communicators if we, if we do really look at our rights. But I want to mention that personality is what we're up against here. and personality are what we're dealing with, right how we perceive and interact in the world. And most research is showing that the way we interact our personality, our preferences, is determined about 50% by DNA. So our genetics are very blood within our veins, great, great grandpa and grandma on down the line, create some of our style. And then the other half comes from socialization and interactions in life experience. So often, when I am trying and failing in one of my personal goals as a communicator, maybe to listen more patiently and things like that. I kind of feel like I feel like every cell in my body is annoyed because it's not getting to do what comes natural to him. I have to remember some of this is DNA. So the boat turns slow, right? We make small baby steps improvement. That's the meaning of life. For my personal good,

Kyle Roed: 18:31

we just went really existential here, I appreciate it.

Michelle Gladieux: 18:33

Well, because you are somebody loved them. What would the first thing we think is the last time I talked with them the last time I texted with them the last letter I sent to them. Who I'd love to see more of that more letters. At my company we really liked snail mail. And we often send people samples of our workbooks, etc. And and I don't know there's something different about it. I think we're losing some important dimensions of communication by coming kind of a hit down. backgrounded texting society. Yeah, nothing be handwritten. Thank you now. Right or and Molly's case, standing up and giving the presentation. Adding words to the presentation, when you could just use a phone call or email. Yep, absolutely. Okay, so

Molly Burdess: 19:20

the one I'm real curious about learning more about is the settling. Tell me Tell me about that.

Michelle Gladieux: 19:25

Tell you about settling? Well, my team asked where a team of 10 I originally called this satisficing. So you're making a satisfactory decision. That will be enough. But it's not as much as you could do. And everybody hated that term, because it wasn't common. So I gave in. It's in the chapter, but not the title. So what do you mean my satisficing? They said, and I said, Well, when the 10 of us get together by zoo for happy hour, and I made me say, okay, whoever wants to go first, can you please update As on your recent projects, online have, you could sit there and wait knowing that somebody is going to say something, if you don't, the person who says I'll move first is doing the opposite of settling, they are stretching when they don't have to stretch. And it benefits them as individuals had benefits to the whole team. And it benefits the company in the long run. Meanwhile, I start to trust them more and delegate more important projects to them. And we all start to notice when they speak, and they emerge as a leader, when there was no one tapped to emerge as a leader. So I'll word in the positive, saying settling is stretching. Instead of using your mind power, and your time and your energy to figure out what's the least I can do here, I get by kind of relates to quiet quitting, right, a kind of recent phenomenon, a term that's been coined in the last year or so, about folks just chilling back, and doing what they need to do to get that I'm on the meeting, but I'm not turning my camera on. That's okay. Sometimes you imagine there could be chaos behind behind me. And I could have asked you both, can I please that turn the camera on today, and you would have been gracious, but when possible, I should try to contain the chaos and, and really show up? So. So the opposite of settling the showing up? In a way that makes you uncomfortable?

Kyle Roed: 21:26

I'm sure many of us are sitting here thinking yeah, yeah, I know those people, you know, the just just just going to show up just enough, you know, so that they don't think I'm like, you know, sleeping on the job that, you know, there's, um, you know, let's be honest, some of us are like that, and meetings here and there too, right? You know, it's, it's been a rough day, if we're not feeling it, but But there it does communicate something, even if you are not communicating, right. So it's, you know, there's, there's a risk of of acting that way, right.

Michelle Gladieux: 22:00

And we can't give 110% to everything, then we're just, you know, a blob who's not not looking out for how they spend and receive energy. So maybe pick a few things, a few things you really believe. Another quick example, when I have good service at a restaurant, you know, I used to tip well, and leave now I think, tip well, and if I have just even three or four minutes, I'll say, can you point me to the manager real quick. And then grab the manager and say you have Brad or Brianna working the bar and we had eight people and he she they didn't write anything down. And they were so kind and so patient way to go recruiting and retaining that employee. And that lifts me up. And that lifts the individual up, right? And that's an example of not settling, everybody walks out who finds them. I don't do it often enough, but it's one small way. I'm trying to avoid settling. Can I read you just one paragraph from that chapter seven that you asked about? Okay, which is called settling for good enough? Yeah, please do rely on page 91. I have facilitated 1000s of training events. adults learn best when they participate. So I'm on a never ending quest to draw comments and answers and questions out of the audience. No matter what topic I'm teaching. It's interesting to me how often in the post training evaluations, when asked what could make this training better, people suggest more participation. I agree. And I would need many of those respondents to decide to personally step up to participate or to participate. Think about it. Have you attended any team meetings where comments were encouraged that the invitation to engage was met with silence? Your silence? Were you settling for the sad rationalization that if no one else is speaking up? Why should you as author Dennis Covington put her there are moments when you stand on the brink of a new experience and understand that you have no choice about it. Either you walk into the experience or you turn away from it. But you know that no matter what you choose, you will have altered your life in a permanent way. The small things that have when we're communicating with others, and it makes our legacy. That's what people stand around and talk about at your memorial service is what you said for said, wrote, hosted followed up on we have a lot of debt we make two to 3000 Some researchers estimate decisions per day from waking to sleeping. And a lot of those couple of 1000 decisions are about communication. So very simple way I'm trying to do better is when I can't get back to an email. If you if you were to email me tonight and say what do you think and would you rate our podcast? A quick note saying I will I won't be able to get to it until two days from now but I will is I think is a lot better than just radio silence for two or three days and then Oh surprise She did care. So I'm working at taking five seconds to say, like, I see you, and I will be with you as soon as I can get to you because you are important. Anyway, you can tell him a talker, I'll be quiet for her.

Kyle Roed: 25:15

I think it's, you know, it's really powerful. You know, I'm actually I'm, I am on the other end of the spectrum, like, I'm the person, I'm always talking by it. And so it's like, I'm, I have like, now I've taken the approach, where when I'm in a meeting, and somebody asks, I don't have to, like force myself to shut up. But what I've found is that because I'm just known as people just know, know me. So when I'm not talking, it's weird. And so when I'm actually listening, and reflecting, then they're actually looking to me to provide, you know, some context or commentary a lot of times, because that's, that's just who I am. And it but it's, but I'm able to render more effective communication when I'm actually forcing myself to listen. And so that's kind of, you know, that's my strategy. But

Michelle Gladieux: 26:04

you and I would benefit as we Mali, from just speaking our goals as communicators to others. So they might understand, for example, with you, and I, Kyle, it's not that we're not interested, we're working on being more thoughtful before we speak. And for Molly, if she were to say, Okay, I start, or I have a couple of things, five things I want to review with this group. And I'm working on being more comfortable as a public speaker. No, apologies, Marie, no apologies. Please, less, you've really done something wrong. No, I'm sorry, is and no, I'm not a good speaker, leave all that out. That's if I had to say my head to, when I go to speaking events, I leave it out, I think it, it would feel nice to confess it. But we leave that part out. We can't what we can put in is our goal. And it goes a long way. In a recent argument with my big brother, Mark. He's 14 years older, we can really go at it. And I stopped during the argument and was looking at him and I was trying to think, think about trying to feel his position. And we were very politically apart on this position. And he looked at me and said, What are you doing? It was just making it even more pissed off. I said, I'm, I'm listening. And he said, No, you're not. Basically, what am I doing just I don't know, you're probably figuring out a way to put this in a seminar or something, which I wasn't, but I will, but I wasn't at the time, you will. Now my point being that it through all he was doing was being silent for 30 seconds and thinking about his position and it through him and then bad sign. People know me as mouth always going when I disagree. So can you know, this has taken years kindly, but it's taking you years to come to the realizations about what you need to work on.

Kyle Roed: 27:43

Work in Progress, show me yours, you're

Michelle Gladieux: 27:47

not gonna you're not gonna be brave enough to give that feedback if you care about your child, if you care about your boss, if you care about your friend, or your coworker, offer some diplomatic feedback. And you can include both praise and a statement of intention, you work so hard, I want you to know, I come from a place where I want you to be the best you can be. You interrupted a couple of people during that meeting. And I could tell they were annoyed. And I just wanted to let me know. I'm not a perfect communicator. But I wanted to let you know what I saw. I know this is tricky, depending on your level of positional power in an organization or relationship, but people who care will have something to share with us that we could do better. And sometimes people who don't care and don't wish us well also might have something they could share that we can weigh, put it in a light and weigh it and see if it rings true. Maybe we can use them. See a lot of like celebrities stand up and accept their lifetime achievement awards and, or haters. Thank you for not believing in me, they'll push me to be my best self. Love it. Love it.

Kyle Roed: 28:51

Well, this is just this has been an amazing conversation. Unfortunately, we are pushing up to the end of our time together. And I'm fascinated to hear your response to the rebel HR flash round. So we're going to transition into the flash round questions. Okay. And in the spirit of Billy Idol. Yeah, where does HR need to rebel.

Michelle Gladieux: 29:10

We need to stop playing second fiddle to operations or allowing operations to put us in a second fiddle position. But we have to learn about operation and understand the hard parts of that that often people persons don't get as interested in. So learn the profit and loss. Learn about the scrap metal rate. Learn about the things going on in your organization that aren't HR, and demonstrate your knowledge and your interest in learning and then HR can start to get more respect for my previous experience as an HR director in manufacturing, robotics and warehousing. Shall your be keen to our full right now I think. Yeah, agree more.

Kyle Roed: 29:52

Amen. Considering one of the HR managers that I hired used to run a feed mill. Absolutely. I'm with you on that.

Michelle Gladieux: 29:58

Let's get we met Not to go enroll in a couple of semesters of college or an Associate's program, or get or negotiate with our employer to allow us to get that kind of training or ask those in operations or finance, about what we don't understand about their job or find a mentor outside of our organization or finding an executive coach or read a book. I think people should read communicate with courage. But you already know that

Molly Burdess: 30:25

that's saying I've ever done it taken all my department heads to launch and ask them about a million question. Tell me what you do.

Michelle Gladieux: 30:32

Tell me how you do it. One at a time, or was this like the never ending lunch? Want to know one at a time? That's Hi smart. I hope you advertised that to your boss thinks you did that, Molly. That's the thing. That's something that you shouldn't bring up before your performance review. And that's to be in writing in your review.

Molly Burdess: 30:50

Okay, I'll make that happen.

Kyle Roed: 30:53

Another pro tip. All right, question number two, who should we be listening to?

Michelle Gladieux: 30:58

Tom Petty and the Heartbreakers? Don't back down for lots of reason. Yeah. We should be listening to great music. If you're not into music, let's see. We should be listening to our elders to learn about how they had experienced life. And we shouldn't be listening to the youth coming up behind us to figure out how they see us as well. So that we can try to be when we communicate, so we can be resonant with all generations. And we should be listening to our our inner voice because that's where courage comes from. Nobody gives you courage as a communicator, you have to summon it forth. In his I guess I'd say it's an intangible that's also very vital. And we have to find it in ourselves. Nobody else can do that work for us. So Tom Petty, our elders, the youngins and our inner voice, that's what I'm gonna say for that

Kyle Roed: 31:48

one. Got it. Don't back down. It'll be free fallin.

Michelle Gladieux: 31:51

Yeah. The only brokenhearted Gotcha.

Kyle Roed: 31:56

All right. Last question. How can our listeners connect with you and get their hands on this book? Yeah,

Michelle Gladieux: 32:00

books available everywhere books are sold. Lots of people go to Amazon, but go anywhere you'd like mid honor. I also did the audio recording. So I narrated for Audible, and it's available on Kindle app called communicate with courage. And there's a little sailboat with four waves trying to kind of take it down. And the sailboat is going to, it's going to succeed. I would, I would love to see some of our listeners sign up for our quarterly e newsletter. I write it personally with help from my team. It's called break down, named after the time, honey song. And it's a breakdown of different professional and personal development tools that we're trying to give away. No kidding. No catch. And we only write it four times a year because we're all busy. But it also always a clear, it's a short music video that we tie in to the HR concept. So we hope to be uplifting with this and you can sign up for it at Glencoe consulting doc. Awesome. Awesome.

Kyle Roed: 32:54

Well, the next time I'm at Indiana, we're gonna grab a beer because I think you're having a beer. Wine sounds

Michelle Gladieux: 32:59

okay. You will have why work in Iowa? Sometimes, Kyle that could happen.

Kyle Roed: 33:03

Let's do it. Let's do it. We'll have a karaoke night. syncs with Tom Petty. Billy Idol. It'll be good. All right. Well, Michelle, it's just been an absolute pleasure to to get to know you to learn more about this book. We will have all that information in the show notes. So open up your podcast player will have those links. Although there's a bunch of really great free tools out there on the website. Check it out. Michelle, it's just been an absolute pleasure. Thank you.

Michelle Gladieux: 33:25

My pleasure to keep up the good work. Rock on rebel on.

Kyle Roed: 33:31

All right, that does it for the rebel HR podcast. Big thank you to our guests. Follow us on Facebook at rebel HR podcast, Twitter at rebel HR guy, or see our website at rebel human resources.com. The views and opinions expressed by rebel HR podcast are those the authors and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of any of the organizations that we represent. No animals were harmed during the filming of this podcast. Baby