RHR 151: Make your Employees "Money Strong" with Liz Davidson

Liz Davidson: 0:00

and thrive by living your purpose, which is the ultimate goal of money. It's not consumption and fancy things and status, or even experiences, although all of those things might be part of a life you want. Ultimately, it's that ability to have the financial security and freedom to do what you want in life and live the way you want and not be beholden to a relationship or even a job that you really don't like doing, or you have to do for financial reasons.

Kyle Roed: 0:30

This is the rebel HR Podcast, the podcast where we talk to HR innovators about all things people leadership. If you're looking for places to find about new ways to think about the world of work, this is the podcast for you. Please subscribe on your favorite podcast listening platform today. And leave us a review revelon HR rebels. Alright, rebel HR listeners. Welcome back. This is the launch of season four. And we are super excited to have with us a repeat guest. We have with us Liz Davidson. Liz is the CEO of financial finesse. And she is the author of a recently released book called Money strong, your guide to a life free of financial worries. It's available where books are sold on Amazon and all the other good local bookstores. So welcome to the show. Liz.

Liz Davidson: 1:23

Thanks for having me back.

Kyle Roed: 1:25

Well, super excited to have you back. And we had so much fun last time on the on the podcast. You know, we were just reminiscing it was like the middle of COVID. I think I was hunkered down in my basement, you were at home. And it was just kind of it was just kind of crazy times. And now things seem to be normalized a little bit. Although maybe we've just convinced ourselves. It's normal. And it's really not. But welcome back. And just just always appreciate the time that you spend with us here on the podcast. So I want to jump in just to understand a little bit more about the book and what prompted you to write a book about being money strong?

Liz Davidson: 2:08

Yeah, it's interesting that McGraw Hill actually reached out to me with the off the offer of we will want to work with you. And we will let you write whatever you want within the realm of financial wellness, which is my favorite topic, having started a financial wellness firm in 1999, before people even understood what financial wellness actually was. And it was I mean, it was just an offer I couldn't refuse. It's very, very rare that a large publishing company will pay you to do what you love, put the marketing support behind it, and really give you carte blanche. And so then I took a step back, and I said what, what can I do with his book that would have the greatest impact. And we looked at, you know, just the last now it's 24. But when I was writing 23 years of history of that we've had coaching, especially coaching those in financial stress, right, so we do unbiased financial coaching as an employee benefit, and just really looked at those that took to the coaching and made massive improvements in their financial lives and, and what were the patterns that they had in common, because people from all walks of life, all cultures, age groups, etc. But, you know, they all started out with significant stress. And they all ended up not only financially stable, but many of them financially secure and able to retire. So imagine that arc, and ended up identifying these patterns, and then forming a framework, which we call start. And discovering that really everyone had kind of gone through this framework, some of them in a more formal way, some of them and a less formal way. And then if we thought if we published this framework and shared how to use it, we would be extending our reach to people that maybe their employer doesn't offer a benefit, or maybe they're not even employed, right. But they still have financial challenges. So start framework very quickly, set yourself up for financial success. So absent going through a financial crisis, where you really can't provide basic needs, right, you're going to be on the street kind of crisis. It's actually important to take a step back and set up your environment, set yourself up to be continually motivated to have you know, peers that can help hold you accountable. Go on the journey with you. I mean, there's all sorts of techniques that you can put in place to make sure behaviorally you're because this is not easy. It's it's it's easy to overspend, right, it's easy to make them wholesome decisions because your stress, it's not easy to create an environment that supports your success. So, you know, we really focus on key techniques that are brain science related that people can use. The next is tackle your financial stress. And there's a lot there, both emotionally, how to tackle it, and then how to get out of it. Financially attain the life you want. A lot of people don't know what they really want in life. So they're kind of living without a plan. And that plan is both personal and financial, role model positive financial habits and behaviors, the study show with you role model, you are so much more likely to stick with your own positive financial habits and behaviors and build upon them because now you're accountable to those you mentor, and pride by living your purpose, which is the ultimate goal of money, it's not consumption and fancy things, and status, or even experiences, although all of those things might be part of a life you want. Ultimately, it's that ability to have the financial security and freedom to do what you want in life and live the way you want and not be beholden to a relationship or even a job right, that you really don't like doing. But you have to do for financial reasons.

Kyle Roed: 6:23

Absolutely. Did everybody get that? Like, I hope you had your pet, like, rewind it, and get your pens out? And just, you know, or buy the book even better, right? But or

Liz Davidson: 6:32

do you want to slow me down and go through those one at a time? We can also do that.

Kyle Roed: 6:38

We Yeah, you know, there's there's so many things I want to touch on there. But you know, I think the maybe the first thing that I want to really, really hit on is something that I think is really, really interesting is the fact that you you went out and you found this, like these corollary factors. Within all of kind of your big, I mean, you've got a massive book of research on people achieving their financial goals. So it's actually this is actually this isn't necessarily your opinion, right? This is this is based in some research in and and, you know, and tactics that have been proven to work. So so how did you? How did you do that? Because I gotta believe that that was a pretty big task to try to really go through and identify out of this big data set. You know, where do we where do we really hone in on what do we focus on? And how do we make this consumable for somebody to actually have some, some actionable, you know, things to do to achieve their money? Goals?

Liz Davidson: 7:34

Very good question. And you're absolutely right, we have had a financial wellness Think Tank, since 2006, where we've analyzed before big data was, you know, as much of a thing, or where we've analyzed in aggregate, all the phone calls, we've gotten all the online interactions, what people were indicating, in terms of their stress levels, and their, you know, high level financial habits and behaviors. So we've been studying this both broadly. And then also longitudinally, with individuals that engage with us on an ongoing basis over, you know, many, many years, for, you know, well over almost two decades now. Right. So, so, it, we had all of that foundationally. And it was a matter of really like how do we take this, you know, further analyze the factors, the key factors, but then the hardest part, honestly, was coming up with a framework and an accurate stuff that was easy to wrap your head around. And when we landed on start, it was like, this makes so much sense. Get Started, right? It's start is an action word, and it's a very positive word. And no matter where you are, you can always kind of start, if that makes sense. Like, it's you, you know, we we go we make two steps forward, one step back, you know, and almost anything in life, that's okay. If you'd have take step, a stick, take a step back restart, right, if it's, it's okay. It's, it's the way we we work and live and, you know, get things done.

Kyle Roed: 9:18

Absolutely. I love that. And I, you know, I love the fact that you're intentional, that it's action oriented, right? It's, you know, it's, it's just so often that that people just feel stuck. Yeah, and you just go through, you just go through the motions. And, you know, I've been there. Fortunately, not recently, but you know, early in my career, it was just it was just, it was paycheck to paycheck, you just how do you get out of this? You know, there's it's almost like, you're just in a cycle of despair. Right. Yeah. And so having some sort of a catalyst or some sort of a framework to actually just take an action. Yeah, I think is you know, I just I love that approach. It makes perfect sense to me. Yes, um, Yeah, so I want to, you know, maybe, maybe think about this in the context of of some of the work that financial finesse does. And full disclosure to the listeners here. My organization has been using financial finesse for for over a year now. And we've had a lot of success and a lot of really positive employee feedback. So this isn't a commercial for financial finesse. I'm just saying like it, it has been positively received from from my team. And so you know, I do think that, you know, if your organization is hearing a lot of feedback and noise about people who feel that way that feel stuck, or are concerned about finances, or just every raise just as never enough. And we just did merit increases. So believe me, I've had these conversations. But giving them a resource, a tool, you know, actually caring about their financial wellness, can really make a big difference in somebody's somebody's life when they don't feel like they know what their next right thing to do is in compliance note, if you're in human resources, and you're trying to advise people on their financial wellness, that's a little bit of a risky proposition, you should probably lean on a certified financial professional. Just putting that out there. So yeah, so So I want to, you know, maybe maybe shift the conversation a little bit, as you think about the your financial wellness programs, what have you seen in successful organizations that have really helped employees get out of this, this cycle of, you know, financial stress and not being set up for that financial success?

Liz Davidson: 11:37

Yeah, that's a great question. And it is very universal, across all sizes of companies, industries, etc. And that is to make the employee the two things to make the employee the center of the process. If you go back years ago, and you know, there's still some of this today. You know, the thought was, we do a lunch and learn, and we teach employees about asset allocation and their retirement plan. Wow, that sounds fascinating, doesn't it? That's, you know, that's Soto right there. And that was kind of the thought was, we have these topics, or we have these benefits, and we need to make sure those employees understand and use them and get it. And then, of course, you know, they wouldn't really help get the results. And then it was like, well, these employees just don't, don't listen to us and these employees, right, and it's like, well, here's the deal. Think about you, right, all of our favorite topics, all of us, is ourselves and our families and our lives and how we can improve our lives. And so when you make the program centered on improving people's financial lives, and even more broadly building the life they want for themselves in their family, it doesn't get more personal, more compelling, you know, more more emotional in the best positive way than not. So make them the center. And there's a lot of ways to do that, you know, I won't, you know, go into the minutiae, but make them the center philosophically in the necec. Thing is, with benefit, instead of having this long list of benefits on your intranet, even if it's very well organized, you have health over here, and you have retirement, and you have voluntary benefits and work life benefits. It's a lot to sort through the average large employer has, you know, north of 53, I believe it's 53 benefits, you know, kind of at the low end, and as high as you know, 100 plus when you include everything, so, but instead, help employees by giving them and, you know, online resource that will help diagnose, what are the benefits they need, that they can really get value out of, it's funny, we call them benefits, and then most employees probably only list five, right of the 50. Great plus, it's not a benefit, if you don't know about it, if you don't use it, and we forget that what we're offering is not just copy, it's comp and benefits, right? And if employees don't see how they can use your benefits to improve their lives, you're probably wasting a lot of money and you're missing a major opportunity to show your commitment to them and to retain them because if they're watching their balances grow and they're seeing the value even from like EAP or well being or, you know, services like ours, that that's just such a compelling employee value proposition. It's happening without you even realizing it.

Kyle Roed: 14:52

Absolutely. Yeah. And you know what, okay, so full disclosure here and I'm going to be a little vulnerable, like, I went through the tool myself Oh, and I was going through it. And I was like, you know, I considered myself first first fallacy. I considered myself fairly financially literate, right? You know, that HR executive, I know generally know numbers. But But I sat down and I'm going through the tools, and I was like running the calc on the best health insurance plan for me personally, and I'm like, Oh, crap, I'm in the I've been on the wrong plan for like, three years, I'm totally I should have been in this other plan. And I like I was way over indexed on the insurance that I needed for the health and like all the family, and, and I was just basically wasting all of that insurance premium money. Right. But it's like, but it took that like, that intentionality to go through and be like, oh, wait a minute. But then, you know, it's, it's also from my standpoint, like, and this maybe sounds, I don't know, lazy, like, it also is a tool for me to be like when someone comes to my office, and I just honestly, I don't have the time, energy or ability to really help them truly understand. What's the deductible? What's in college? What does this mean? What are your annual expenditures on medical, and now you can make a decision, like there's a tool for? So that's the other thing, right? You're kind of, you're outsourcing this to somebody that that is a true expert. And I will, I will make the comment unbiased, right? It's not like the insurance person that gets a kickback from the insurance company, if they sell you term life insurance that you don't need. Right. These are these are neutral parties. And I think that was a really important context in the program as well. And I

Liz Davidson: 16:37

think you made an important compliance point, right? You don't want it's very difficult, once you get in a conversation to stop it, right, especially when you're HR and benefits and employees are really looking to you to help. And so where do you draw the line where you're crossing over and making recommendations? And then what if that didn't turn out? Well, even if sometimes you can make the right decision. We all know this. But life events occur that you never could anticipated and it goes kind of sideways, right? So even if you are giving the best possible counsel, where does it come back to? It comes back to you the company? And obviously there are legal nuances around the depth of advice, but you don't want to be in that position. It's just it's not. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. To be able to say, Hey, we've paid for this unbiased program that you can access at any time get unlimited coaching, because we care about your finances. Is it is a huge statement, I think of who you are as an organization. Yeah,

Kyle Roed: 17:43

absolutely. Yeah. And I mean, I think, you know, the reality that this for me was when I first heard this concept, it was a little bit revelatory, but it's true. You know, what is a job? Right, you, you are trading your time for dollars. That's really what a job is. Right? I mean, that's, you know, and, and we all talk about, you know, I mean, unless, unless you got a bunch of volunteers working for you, I should make that caveat. But don't we want people like, if they're going to do that for us? Don't we want them to utilize those dollars as effectively as they can? Don't we want to do that, right? Like, that's it when you really boil it down. And this sounds impersonal. But like, that is what it is. That is what we do. And we're here to make that like that workplace experience as positive as we possibly can keep people engaged, motivated, you know, there's a lot more to it, but but at its core, it really does come down to that the money. And then, you know, one of the things I do want to talk about a little bit is, you know, the fact that you mentioned this early on, money is not necessarily the goal, right? I mean, what is what is money? You know, and how do people think about money? And, you know, I just think that's such a really fascinating topic that I've got to believe that over the years of doing this work, you've you've been able to identify where that's that's been a problem for people that there's such a almost an over focus on having enough.

Liz Davidson: 19:05

Yes, yes, that's it's a deeply deeply and I write about this in the intro of the book, actually start off with a song from the OJS Money, money, money, money. If you listen to the lyrics, it's super, super dark. It was written during the Civil Rights era. And it's very dark about what happens in the desperation that happens when people don't have enough money and really, truly not enough right. But there's also a phenomenon that you have the people that generally are in crisis and and truly suffering. But then there's also the phenomenon that you know, and I think this is social media driven, that you know, we are not enough right and you know, take away appearance and things like that, you know, followers likes that but we can't emulate this lifestyle that we see all the time among you know, those we All of who probably aren't living in either. But what I mean, we know, I've been places where like, we'll go to a nice restaurant, and I'll see people take pictures of lead, like, Oh, they're actually not even eating there. So that's not really something they probably can afford. But I'm sure everyone thinks it is, right. So there's this feeling that I think you can get trapped in that I don't have enough, I don't have enough. And that scarcity mentality does a lot of things to you, it creates a lot of stress that's unnecessary. And it keeps you from focusing on what your true priorities are, because it's comparison oriented, right? And what do we say comparison is the enemy of joy. What you need to do is focus on yourself, your family, your priorities, what kind of life you want to bill, and let everyone else, you know, go to the restaurant, take a picture, get back in the car. And post it right, like, you know, enough is, is not an amount of money, necessarily. It's certainly not one same amount for everyone. It is that feeling that you are able to live the life you want to live. That's when you have enough.

Kyle Roed: 21:07

Absolutely, I think, you know, very well said, I have not witnessed somebody walk into a restaurant and take a picture of the food and leave. But then again, I live in, you know, the Midwest. So I don't know, we don't have like the fancy restaurants like that, you know, but nobody's going to Applebee's.

Liz Davidson: 21:23

Because that happens in Malibu a lot. So yes, this is a very privileged area, you know, it's my is our date night. Place. We have a date night, like once a quarter. But it's in Malibu, and sobelle stand, you know, like, adjacent to it taking pictures over over this beautiful like sea shake it so the order and to be fair, they're not ordering food. They're not dining and dashing. But they're there like so it looks like they're there. And it looks like Wow, you're really living this life. But you're just taking a photo shoot.

Kyle Roed: 21:57

Oh, that's a whole nother podcast, we Yeah, dig into the whole like, it's like keeping up with the Joneses used to be the thing. And so you just have to have the nice car and the nice house with the picket fence. But now it's like you have to like social media flex with the Lamborghini. And that that other person's arm and put your czar in fascinating world, I don't understand it. But you know, that's, that's all right. But I love that I love that, you know, that comparison is the enemy of joy. Right? And so often people get under water on these sorts of things. And and, you know, I think for, you know, obviously trying to keep up with others, but also, there's just just a gap in education, I think for a lot of folks. And and I, you know, I've certainly seen that. I do want to talk a little bit about how how this impacts Dei. And I think that, you know, one of the things one of the areas of diversity, equity inclusion, that is, I think, really important to talk about is, is those individuals that you mentioned, who are barely scraping by or really struggling and in a crisis, and maybe just are kind of in a perpetual crisis. And and so as you look at it from that lens, you know, what, what tactics and successful things, have you seen where there have been, you know, components of poverty within an employer or within your, your coaching system that have been successful in helping people get out of that cycle?

Liz Davidson: 23:36

Yeah, no, very good question. And I will say, Absolutely, we know that there are certain groups that are much more likely to have lower income, more financial stress. All that said, very much when a stress is not a monolith. And that's one of the things we've learned in working with employee resource groups. So for example, there may be a group for single moms, right? That's a group that historically tends to have more challenges, but not universally. So what we've been able to do is really an engage in particular, these employee resource groups, but even subsets within the group to understand, you know, what are your most pressing financial issues, like help us design this curriculum, let's co create this together, so that we're really respecting what you care most about where you are, and not just kind of talking at you. And then just really having them not only involved in the creation process, but involved in a very interactive group experience that almost becomes a continued community and not almost I mean, it does become a continued community where they kind of grow together after those workshops and events. And that's there's nothing like Community Right to To get people to continue on and to stay, you know, to stay in a positive mindspace that is what you need to progress, right. So you don't fall backwards into despair. And that's been just absolutely tremendous. And again, it's, it's, it is always respecting that even within a group, everyone individually is unique, right, and how they learn and process etc. So we also layer on coaching on top of that, because we don't want to presume that we're going to reach everyone. Everyone's see, you know, worry concern goal within a single workshop, right, that's not realistic. So it's getting that them to work on a coaching basis with typically the the financial planner that is, you know, conducting the workshop, right. So they have that person they trust, who can continue to work with them, and you put those things together, and you're really hitting on the issues in a way that's incredibly powerful that they feel heard, and that they have that ongoing resource through the coach as well as each other.

Kyle Roed: 26:12

Yeah, absolutely. And I think, you know, what's, what's really interesting about the approach is it's it's, it's personalized, right, you know, it's not like, yeah, it's not like you're sitting in a, you know, well, we'll keep the big firms out as but but let's say like, you're not sitting at our big, like brokerage firm. And then it's like, here come to our webinar, and it has absolutely nothing to do with you, except for like, five minutes at the beginning. And then yeah, whatever, whatever, like, you know, mind numbing lecture, you get like, there's, there's actually a follow up. And there's, there's action items, there's tasks, there's things to think about. And they're also kind of, like, the interesting thing is, it's personalized. So like, you don't worry about stuff like, like advanced tax strategies, until you make sure that you have like, fully leveraged the power of budgeting. Right?

Liz Davidson: 27:03

In seriously complaining about the amount of taxes they have to pay, provided they can afford to pay it and they haven't, you know, they're not in debt to the IRS. That's a good problem to have. It doesn't mean, you don't try to reduce it, and you shouldn't, and, you know, we have an emotional attachment to those tax dollars, right? That's a different kind of feeling when I have to give money, the government versus, you know, give it to charity, or spend and other things. But But absolutely, you have to I mean, it's so cliche to meet people where they are, but I don't know a better way to say it, you know, you have to really, again, as I said earlier, work from the employees needs backwards, rather than saying, here's all the things, we need to teach people because you don't really need to necessarily at that point in time, they mean, the support around their most pressing issues. And then those get resolved. And then, you know, you move on to kind of more foundational financial stability issues, then you move on to planning and then you move on, if you're in wealth protection. Good for you, again, good problem to have, right. Yeah, good problem to have. But you don't even need to worry about that. Until you get, you know, your more immediate needs figured out. And so it's it is you're absolutely right about the approach. Yeah. Yeah, that's,

Kyle Roed: 28:27

that should be the social media flex, not going to the fancy restaurant taking a picture over some beautiful overlook, it should be like, Hey, I've graduated to the point of wealth protection versus wealth creation. So congratulations. Right, it doesn't have the same ring, though.

Liz Davidson: 28:42

That I think there is something about, you know, what we are seeing to that point is, and we actually have a podcast now where we have employee sharing their stories, and a lot of the employers who employ these employees use that as a major marketing and educational tool. So you're starting to see this Tebow being broken, you know, we broke the mental health cupboard, taboo, I think, during COVID, right. And I think we're breaking this financial health taboo, which is people are incredibly open now to sharing their stories of financial struggle, how they prevailed, you know, what their advice is to others that might be in the same situation. And it's, I think, the most healthy use of social media, minus the mental health, right? Stories that people share that I've ever seen.

Kyle Roed: 29:38

I think it's really powerful. And, you know, there absolutely was a stigma, right? You know, it's the, hey, I can't, I can't admit that we're struggling to, you know, afford X or I can't admit that I'm underwater on a loan, and now you've got these. Now you've got these, like, these groups that are the opposite of that, like, let's, let's air it all out. Let's figure out what's going on. And, you know, I mean, just like anything, those stories, those individual stories are so powerful for people to reflect on. And, you know, there's probably traits that you're that you share with those individuals that have gone through that, right. And if you're not careful, you might be in that same position. So I just going back to the power of community, I think it's really, really a powerful and impactful thing to be thinking about.

Liz Davidson: 30:23

Yep. Absolutely.

Kyle Roed: 30:26

Well, this has just been an absolutely wonderful conversation. And I'll I'll plug the Book One more time, the book is called Money strong, your guide to a life free of financial worries. And check it out, check out the start framework, I think it's really powerful. It's understandable and could really help you and, and your team as well. With that, I want to shift gears and go into the rebel HR flash round. Are you ready? Okay. All right, Flash round number two, this is like this is a repeat flash round. So we'll see. Where does HR need to rebel?

Liz Davidson: 31:04

I think really transitioning from, you know, what still, I think is too much of a top down approach to a bottom up approach, right? Employees are the ones that are using your benefits employees are the ones that, you know, have to balance, you know, compensation and benefits and their personal lives and their mental health and financial health and all of this stuff, right. So really, really involve them in the process, both in terms of bringing on new benefits, as well as shaping how you market the benefits, do focus groups, like, listen and hear. And also, one, one other thing is, understand what they want, but try to get to the core of what they need. Because sometimes what we want is not what we need, or it's a tactical way of like, oh, I need a loan. Well, what you really need, I mean, maybe you do need that loan, but you need financial counseling, so that you don't need to meet a loan, let's say in the future. Right. So getting to that level where you really, really are that in tune with your employees.

Kyle Roed: 32:14

Absolutely. Yeah. Couldn't agree more. Yeah, invest the time. You know, these, I think the other thing I might just call it here, like, when you have those really crappy compensation discussions, and they happen when somebody is in your office, and they're frustrated when they're nervous. Listen, just listen. Right? Like, they might have valid points. And there might be some things they need to understand from the perspective of, you know, how your compensation philosophy works, and blah, blah, blah, but that's an opportunity to listen, my guess is there's probably a root cause underneath those concerns. Yes, that could be helped with financial wellness. Yep. Right. So couldn't agree more. All right, question number two, who should we be listening to?

Liz Davidson: 32:59

Well, obviously, rebel HR was the answer I might have had before. I don't know Gary Vee, huge fan of Gary Vee. And, you know, I'm gonna re stress your employees missin here and create an environment that encourages them, you know, that whole psychological safety, right? Where they are actually rewarded for being honest and transparent, even if what they're saying may not be what you want to hear. And it's a balance, because you don't want to encourage negativity and complaints that have no solution, but involve them in solving the HR and benefits challenges you have. I think you'd be surprised at how how open minded and generous and kind employees are when they do truly understands. The company is trying to do everything it can for them.

Kyle Roed: 33:59

Absolutely. Yeah. Couldn't agree. Couldn't agree more. You did say Gary Vee last time.

Liz Davidson: 34:06

I've missed him. Right? Yeah, no, he just knows how to say things. And he's so onpoint and he does address a lot of HR issues within broader thought leadership. He's just yeah, he's neat Berman, mate Berman is he used to be in a lawn chair. And that was like, one of my favorite things. He's now in a more professional setting as he's grown as followers. But either way, I mean, he's one he has one listener, what some go back to the lawn chair was awesome. But either way, very, very insightful. Quick Tips on everything from management to leadership to just general success in life and business. Absolutely.

Kyle Roed: 34:50

Yeah, the thing I like about Gary Vee like, so. I'm also a huge fan of Gary Vee, but he's like, he does talk on a lot of HR stuff, but he's also like real about it. Right like it's not like the

Liz Davidson: 35:03

diehard Yorker. Yeah. And yeah, genuine and you just you really truly believe he lives what he says. Yeah. So

Kyle Roed: 35:17

yeah, I love a good F bomb out again too, don't we? All right, that's sometimes that's just fun. All right. Okay, last question how can I listeners connect with you and get their hands on the book?

Liz Davidson: 35:28

Again, the book, Amazon, you know, anywhere books are sold kind of thing. Get it on Kindle iBooks nook, however you consume books, audiobook. In terms of reaching out to us, if you are interested in learning more about financial coaching, the start framework, you know how you can really help employees in these busy areas we're talking about, reach out to info at financial finesse.com and someone will get back in touch with you and we'll see what we can do to work together.

Kyle Roed: 36:03

Very good. Yeah, check that out. We'll have that in the show notes. You know, I strongly encourage you to if you haven't thought about financial wellness as an employee benefits, think about it. It's it's can be really powerful tool. So, Liz, thank you so much for joining us. I sincerely appreciate your time and your busy schedule, and keep on doing the work. Appreciate it.

Liz Davidson: 36:23

Thank you.

Kyle Roed: 36:25

All right. That does it for the rebel HR podcast. Big thank you to our guests. Follow us on Facebook at rebel HR podcast, Twitter at rebel HR guy, or see our website at rebel human resources.com. The views and opinions expressed by rebel HR podcast are those the authors and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of any of the organizations that we represent. No animals were harmed during the filming of this podcast. Maybe