RHR 153: The Future Workplace Experience with Kevin Mulcahy

Kevin Mulcahy: 0:00

You have to be doing the job before you're going to be given the job. Don't wait for that description of Oh, when I'm VP I will agitate for change, I will propose bigger changes. No, you'll never be VP of HR. If you're waiting for die, agitate for change now frame to changes now make the case for change now. And you'll be given the role to lead to change. And that's what we need to do. We need to be HR activists and agitate for the change that we want to see in our organization in our people in our employee attitude surveys.

Kyle Roed: 0:32

This is the rebel HR Podcast, the podcast where we talk to HR innovators about all things people leadership. If you're looking for places to find about new ways to think about the world of work, this is the podcast for you. Please subscribe my favorite podcast listening platform today. And leave us a review revelon HR rebels Welcome back rebel HR listeners. This is going to be a super fun conversation today with us we have Kevin Mulcahy. He is the co author of the award winning book, The future workplace experience, we are going to be talking about the future workplace and maybe challenging some of the HR norms with us. We all also have Molly Bradesco. Molly, thank you, as always, for joining us today. We're thrilled to have you. Yeah. Hi, Guy. And Kevin, welcome to the show. Really appreciate you being here with us today. Thank you. So I want to start off with the first question that I asked almost every author. And that is, why did you invest the time, energy and heartburn to write a book called The future workplace experience.

Kevin Mulcahy: 1:42

And those are the three appropriate ingredients for writing a book, and it's more heartburn in time and experience. So you have to you have the essence of for writing your own book. But you have to be driven by a key theme for your book. And you have to have an audience member in mind. And so for for me and my author, my co author, we were thinking about the challenges of HR executives, and you have to have a persona in your minds. Were thinking up here 42 year olds, there abouts, exec HR executive, who's got some direct reports who's trying to influence the C suite. And there's this pervasive thing, and I've heard it for like many years around HR, like HR should have a bigger seat at the table or whatever the some variation thereof, right? We all hear about it, how they, how they talk and have a seat at the table? Well, here's how you get a seat at the table, you got to see that the table by fucking business, right? Like HR leaders need to be business leaders. And to be a business leader, you have to help help be versed in the conversation of where are we going? And how should we best get there. And one of the end from your domain expertise. So hrs domain expertise is the business of people. And one of the ways that you can influence senior executives is talk about what is shifting and why. And a lot of times we start with the whites, and we just get descriptive. Oh, here's this trend. Here's that trend. Here's the other trend. But what executives care most about is your perspectives on the why why is that happening? And that's what the book was, is we went and asked for 100 HR executives, what have you done differently to prepare for the upcoming year in HR strategies and talent strategies? And why? And why is became the chapters those were the trends? Those are what people are reacting to this is like, why is anyone changing their behavior, pay attention to why somebody's changing the behavior, and then what they were doing, specifically those policies, those practices, those became interesting anecdotes and examples of how different organizations are responding to that. Why

Kyle Roed: 4:29

I think it's fascinating because and we're, you know, we're wired to figure out the what, right you know, we're we're asked to do that. And especially earlier in our career, we we are certainly the were the people that get stomped on, right, like, just go execute, execute this vision. But then then you have to make this leap eventually. And you know, I kind of hate the seat at the table thing because it's yeah, it's like, I by the way, I totally agree like You earn it by knowing your shit. But also by articulating some of it right?

Kevin Mulcahy: 5:09

I asked him, the HR person, what's your job description? Why, and they're like to give various answers. But I'm like, here is your job. And you have one job description. It's not to be head of learning or it's not to be held head of acquisition and get the best talent we can or at your job is very simple. Our job, every one of our job descriptions is to help our organization with that is our job description. Help our company with and how we do that is I happen to be in this HR role, where I'm responsible for getting the best talent, or this role where I'm responsible for, for building learning of the most relevant topics and themes and skills. That's not how, but but the walk is five to get it helping our company win. And if we all share that job description, then I think we will play nicer with each other. And will will sharpen how we think about our role. And we can ask ourselves, is whatever initiative that I'm proposing here? Is this a feel good initiative? Or is this truly going to help my company win? That's the job.

Kyle Roed: 6:27

It sounds so simple. Yeah. It can be. I love that approach. But I and I agree wholeheartedly, by the way, I think, you know, people ask me what what my job is I say, in general, I'm a business leader, I focus on the people. Right, like, that's just kind of the arena. But I have to be that I have to be that leader for my organization in the way that they need me to lead. Right, but but it's not about me, right? It's about the organization and or whatever, you know, whatever, whether it's my own personal, you know, endeavors or whatever, there's, there's an objective that you're trying to achieve. And that may or may not be just implementing HR Best Practices everywhere, right? Yeah, well,

Kevin Mulcahy: 7:12

so so we'll go back to how you achieve an objective, right. So you've been party to business planning processes, and seeing the wonderful results of the business planning process. And oftentimes, the ones I've seen are 50 page document, with a document with the first page two and three are assumptions in the crafting of this plan. And then pages four to 250 are this wonderful plan. And it's almost like it's the wrong emphasis in the planning document, we should have spent a lot more time on expanding those assumptions. Because to accomplish a goal, you or or objective, you need resources, you need strategies. But all strategies are based on assumptions. Like we use two organizations that are in the same business with the same same workforce with selling to the same customers. And yet, they have very different strategies because they make different assumptions about how their organization can win. And then that's why you have a different strategy. So all strategy is based on assumptions. And we're very good at documenting strategies, and documenting plans and timelines and budgets underneath all those strategies. But we are poor at documenting the assumptions upon which those strategies are built. And then, when some of those assumptions change, we're confused as to why our strategies didn't pan out. What happened to this castle in the sky that we designed back in January? Where did it Where did our castle go? Well, things changed in the market assumptions changed. I mean, you go back a number of months ago, when we were talking about quite quitting, they were talking about quite hiring and they were talking about holding from work and working from home. And we were in HR we we lurch from market trend to market trend. And and we're constantly shifting the assumptions based on how we feel the economy is going and the market for talent is going and and what the expectations of our employees how they're shifting. And and we're chasing our tail essentially. And so I think we need to study, study down and have some good frameworks for organizing our assumptions about our workplace. What are our assumptions about the A experience that our employees want to have here. What are assumptions about the culture that that we are trying to generate or have? What are our assumptions about the technology, we need to get this work done our assumptions about the learning, we need to have in place, our assumptions about the mix of workforce diversity of workforce that we need to have a place. So we just need to peel a peel it out and isolate some of these, these elements that make up the collectively these elements make up the experience of being an employee at our organization. And that's what the this notion of the future workplace is, is, what is the experience we're trying to create here? And how do we make that the experience we create sustainable on track will stand the test of time.

Molly Burdess: 11:01

I even see a difference in assumption, internally, fellow different business, the unit leader is having their own assumption, right about how to win what's happening, why it's happening. And I think HR had the great opportunity to ask the business leader, why do you think that way and kind of bring it all together to help align the strategy and get everybody going in one direction?

Kevin Mulcahy: 11:27

Oh, you're so spot on knowledge. If you went an HR has the ability to go into view the other executives and just say, Look, I just want to sit down with you. And I want to understand, what are your assumptions about the business? What are your assumptions about talent, I mean, just structure the framework that you want to ask assumptions about what your assumptions about how fast his company might could grow in, in the next 12 months. And what you'll find is, if you interview 10 different business leaders, you will almost have eight different sets of assumptions from those 10 leaders. And then you're like, Oh, my goodness, how are they all individually in their, in their functions, making plans? One I just heard, I just asked them what their underlying assumptions were about these various elements. And I got all these different answers. It is a miracle that our business accomplishes our targets at all, because they're all making different underlying assumptions. But these executives never actually shared those assumptions with each other. But HR has a great opportunity to surface the assumptions that are being made by executives, not only to design, a more aligned people plan, but also to help be a business leader by exposing some of the disconnects among the different assumptions that executives are making about the business. You can't staff for two different objectives. It's just too hard.

Kyle Roed: 13:14

I'm smiling over here, because it's like, yep, yep. That cause that argument and that argument, and that. A lot of times, it's just like, yeah, there's just a disconnect somewhere. And you know, where that is, a lot of times, that's the other thing, too, we like we like focus on, on the point of conflict, as opposed to actually understanding well, okay, what are they? What are they actually? What are the underlying, foundational disagreements that we need to clear up before we start to figure out this, like this isolated point of conflict and, and, you know, a little bit of a light bulb moment for me as you were, as you were walking through that. So, you know, I agree wholeheartedly that we and human resources do have a role to play. For those of us that are that are kind of sitting here thinking cheese. Yes, I've seen that. That makes sense. What advice do you have for us as we're trying to navigate this? Like, where do where do we start at really kind of kind of understanding these foundational assumptions and challenging and driving alignment on those.

Kevin Mulcahy: 14:20

So and I think you you've pinpointed when you hear the arguments happening? And then you you hear what the argument is about arguments that I have witnessed tend to be around strategy, or tactics or objectives look that we we can't take on that road plan. We need to I won't call it sandbag it down but let's call it sandbagging it sandbag it down a little bit. And order say No, we should grow in the in the East Coast, not not in the Midwest. And here's what and what they don't do is here's why they're just arguing and trying to convince each other on what is a better strategy. And sometimes you get some wise but the argument is about strategy. And one of the opportunities for HR is to go, Look, you're sensing and witnessing the disagreement. Let's unpack what is behind some of this, these positions, what assumptions are you making about our capacity to grow? What assumptions are you making about our capacity to hire, or scale up to support that level of growth or not hire and scale up to support that level of growth? what capacity you making about the skill sets we either have in place, or we need to put in place to put that plan in force? Like, what? Why do you think a 10% growth is too too aggressive there? And get at what the people issue? What assumptions have they made about the people issues underneath them? Oh, it seems like you're assuming that we'll have 100% retention. If you're

Molly Burdess: 16:07

gonna go,

Kevin Mulcahy: 16:10

everybody's gonna graduate. It's like Oreos, it's assuming that we'll be able to fill those 100 open roles in Cue tree, or q2, whatever it is, or may or will be able to get all those skill sets by that time. Like, the the people often in these planning processes are numbers in the spreadsheet to reach this goal will need this amount of people by this date. And over to you HR. And you know, hang on, that's it's not that easy.

Kyle Roed: 16:44

Yeah, or everybody we hire day one will be fully trained and able to write 100% of your objective here, right? Yeah. Yeah, I remember. I remember a light bulb going off. And one of my, one of my finance team members heads a few years ago, when they put a staffing plan to achieve, you know, X percent growth, whatever, and they put it in front of me. And I said, Okay, we need, let's just use round numbers. Okay, we need 100 people. turnover rate is let's, let's say 20%. That means we need to hire 20%. More than that, just to increase to that 100%. Right. So it's actually this expensive. And oh, by the way, here's the cost of new hires, and blah, you know, and then you extrapolate out from there, and then like, oh, yeah, we didn't think about that. Maybe we need to, you know, and it's, oh, we need to hire him over. I mean, that completely reshaped the conversation, changed the growth projections. But at the end of the day, we we beat our objectives purely because we were realistic about what we could actually achieve. And, you know, we met our goals, but you know, I mean, going back to that assumption is pretty critical, especially on the people side, that we we are honest with those assumptions, right. And one of the big,

Kevin Mulcahy: 18:04

the great sources of assumptions. And as a, as we came out with the pandemic, I was asking people about how they're tapping into employee sentiment, right? big trend, what? And it was surprising to me how many organizations that actually we haven't asked through the last year or two because of circumstances, we've been in a bit of an emergency, we've been responding and dealing with matters at hand related to the pandemic and then to an an unexpected downturn in the economy at the end of 2022. Right. So it's often I hear a long list of reasons why they didn't do the employee, attitude survey or voice of the employee survey. And it was one in five that said, Actually, we did do one. And and when they didn't do it, but we're discounting the results. And then there was one person who said, We did one, we got the results, and we believe the results. So here's a radical idea. When you ask your employees something, and they give you an answer, the radical idea is, believe them. What if what they said was actually true? What if we believed what was in the employee attitude survey? What the implications of that

Kyle Roed: 19:36

but but Kevin, that wouldn't fit the narrative of what we want to believe in our minds. And my ego, so I don't want to do that. Can you tell him this conversation?

Kevin Mulcahy: 19:50

Well, let's go back to the go. What's your job, Carl, what do we agree your job work with the start of this conversation? I think your job is to help your organization win. No Are to massage your ego or to preserve your personal ego. Right?

Kyle Roed: 20:06

I kidding aside? All kidding aside, Kevin, I do sometimes when people ask what my job is a lot of time I say it's ego management, that like a large percentage of my time is spent doing that. But, you know, it's well, it's ego

Kevin Mulcahy: 20:20

management. And it's also I'm going to suggest that part of your job should be be an HR activist in in your, in your job descriptions, if you're hiring anyone from for an HR role, I'm suggesting to everyone listening, that they put in, in the job description, be an HR activist. And you can define that by agitating for the change that you want to see in this organization. It should be part of the job description to agitate for change. We've seen a lot in the media about various movements that are collectively agitating for change, and they're multigenerational, they're they're multi ethnic movements that are agitating, agitating for change. So I think we're in an era of that we have to get back to it's almost what I say sometimes, when I'm coaching some sunrising executives, I say, look, promotions are, are, are taken, never given. And you have to be in the role. Before you're you have to be doing the job before you're going to be given the job you have to. Don't wait for that that description of a one on VP, I will agitate for change, I will propose bigger changes. No, you'll never be VP of HR, if you're waiting for DOD, agitate for change now frame to changes now make the case for change now. And you'll be given the role to lead change. And that's what I think most HR pathways are inevitably going to is the rest of the organization wants to know that the the change agents for our people. There, it's in safe hands. Like and that's what we need to do. We need to be HR activists and agitate for the change that we want to see in our organization in our people in our employee attitude surveys.

Molly Burdess: 22:36

fantastic advice. I love that.

Kyle Roed: 22:41

While you're a disrupter, try

Kevin Mulcahy: 22:46

Molly's employments attitude survey results. They don't want to hear what they're great.

Molly Burdess: 23:00

Yeah, I think a lot of it is just about okay, we've got it. How do you present it to the back in a leader in a way that manages their ego? I think that's half the battle.

Kevin Mulcahy: 23:13

Well, that is half the battle, Molly. And the other half of the battle is to also present the results to the employees and say, here's what you said, we heard you, I am stumped as to how many? How many? How many of the results get buried? Or we've reviewed them? And here's what popped out. And we're just telling you what the ones that we're going to do something about, like, you know, a little bit more transparency would have been, here's what y'all said. And here's the eight issues that popped out that are clearly burning issues. However, honestly, we can tackle these we're going to tackle these tree. And these other five we can't actually tackle for a while or we're not going to tackle for a while and just putting feeding back to people. So what I heard you collectively saying was the following an even radical idea, a follow up validation. So these are the eight things that people talked about among these A's. Let's just have another poll, which do you think we should implementing q1 q2, q3, q4, but we have heard you and showing that we've heard and then Mali, to your point, yes, you have to then use your best influence or style with senior executives to show them what, why they need to respond here. And basically, a guiding principle is don't ask if you don't want to know the answer to the question

Molly Burdess: 24:56

to do anything about it,

Kevin Mulcahy: 24:59

and a second if you're If you care it, acknowledge it. And if you can do something about it, it's not that hard this whole employee attitude survey business, but it's sucking how many people find reasons to say not the right time, or the organization is upset, because we made a few people off recently, this is exactly the right time, you've got to hear it, you've got to hear what the sentiment is not wait for the sentiment to be positive, and then go ask and then everybody does a round robin puts themselves on the back and says whether good job they're doing. And our role is to run to the conflict in HR. Like we often take, it's to mitigate the conflict. But if we run to the conflict, we can get ahead of it before it's a situation before people start resigning. And a big part of where conflict now lies as we're coming back to the workplace. A lot of managers implemented management by zoom. And management by zoom, tended to lead to a test meeting. So the agenda is I'm going to challenge all the listeners to go when's the last time you walked into a meeting with an agenda? And what percentage of meetings to attend have an agenda? And then what percentage of those meetings actually stuck to the agenda? And if that number is pretty small, there's a good New Year's resolution for everyone to think about preparing people with agendas, etc. And and following up on that, then it is just how do we make sure that the right items are on the agenda for action, and capture those action steps. And a lot of times over the pandemic, we got very action oriented on our meetings and calls. And we missed the Hey, Molly, how are you, Carl, how was your weekend, we miss the personal interaction time that we used to have before zoom before our meetings, and after our meetings. And now what I advocate for for managers and leaders is the next time you're out in the meeting, allow 10 minutes for the one agenda item. And this is a question go the agenda items called How are you? And then just Molly, how are you? And then allow time in the agenda to wait for the entrepreneur? Malik? How are you, Kevin? How are you? And and at the end of the meeting, I'll suggest another question. How are we? We had a meeting, we knew where we were coming into this meeting. Now we've gone through the meeting we've covered to think how are we? Do we feel better about what we just covered? Do we feel worse about it just a temperature check on how we are. And if we get those two practices in every interaction with what others were going off, huge way towards. And I'm gonna say the movement in HR is people used to be VP of HR of human resource and Vice President of Human Resources, people aren't used resources, there are people and a lot of leaders are now talking to you in the space are I'm a chief people officer. And the difference is, people are more than resources, they're people. And we're might as in a Chief People Officer role, I am thinking about the human part of the of our employees. And yes, while I may want them to come to the office, and I've asked him if they want to command they say they don't but our managers or leaders want them to come in, like nope, believe the employee and and I think leaders just as with every generational turn you have to believe what the next generation of people are saying is important to them. If you asked I've put a lot of different types there on the table. So we could you

Kyle Roed: 29:07

know, I mean I think it's all it's it's also so true. You know, one thing you were just talking about the meetings like I literally just did this today had a meeting staff meeting weekly meeting jumped right into business it was like you know, hard hitting business stuff and it was just like this this this do this do this shooting off emails as we're going through the meeting and got to the end of the meeting was like 45 minutes in and 15 minutes left. And I said okay, hold on. How's everybody doing? You know, anybody got anything good to share? And we got an A full on discussion about Little Debbie snack cakes and like how that's really hard. And you know, but the kids love them. And so they're just around and we just eat them. But it was like, that goofy, that goofy discussion was was probably the most enjoyable interaction of that entire meeting and you know, everybody left with a smile on your face versus you know, geez, Kyle's cranky today which would probably would have been the takeaway. So good, good reminder. And I think it goes back to though it goes back to, you know, it does go back to that activism piece, right? Like, are you in HR, you challenging your leaders to have effective meetings? Have we really given our leaders the tools to be effective virtual managers? Or did we just save zoom? Good luck, set up weekly one on ones, you know, and have at it? I mean, you know, if I'm being honest, I could have done more than I did. Right. And so it's no, but we've been doing this for a while now. And I do think that a lot of times, it's easy for us to get kind of lulled into a false sense of security, like, well, we've done it for a year or two, it seems to be going fine. But it's that exact moment where you get complacent, or you just become you know, what, what you described before we hit record as an implementer of instructions, versus that true HR activist that's pushing for change and improvement and better leadership. You know, that's, that's risk, right? You're opening yourselves up to risk. And and again, going back to what we've been talking about this whole time, you put your organizational goals at risk, the thing that we're all trying to achieve that risk. So I think, I think a good challenge.

Kevin Mulcahy: 31:17

I love the fact that you, you came to this wisdom at the back end of your meeting and you pivoted right. And we do need to get back to what I'm calling a group reconnection in the workplace. And part of reconnecting is asking people what's going on? And when you do ask people, How are you what's what's going on? And that question is just asked openly before we cover business, what I find is more than half the time, the answer to that has nothing to do with what's going on. Within the, the company. It's well, there's the new baby, there's the new house, there's a new car, there's the the mother in law, just visiting, it's it's something personal. And and before we get to the business agenda, and I just find and I've been on a few meetings recently, when, whenever we had a little bit of just personal connection, that 50 minister to give at the end, when we have that upfront at the beginning. And it just feels like okay, we're just just checking in with everybody, where is everybody what's going on, buddy got anything exciting to share, it's just a nice moment and, and make an observation on some of the meetings you've been in with senior executives. And somehow my observation is, the more senior people are, the more they seem to feel the power to just have a quick run around the table and check in with people and it makes everybody feel good. But at the lower ranks, we feel compelled to just get down to brass tacks pretty title. And part of bringing executive presence into the field is like you're you're in you're an HR, it's it's the people business, let's start leading with examples of showing that we care for others, your your people, your inter communication skills have to be top notch to be in HR. It's part of the trade, you're in the people business. And a big part of that is involves asking questions and listening to the answers.

Kyle Roed: 33:46

What if I don't like the answers? Well, I'll circle back where we started.

Kevin Mulcahy: 33:53

Are you still you still acknowledge the answer, like thank you for sharing the answer, but now at least and somebody when I was in corporate planning, they said well, now the term is on the table. It's like, there you go. You asked, and you you got the answer. And you know, what are you going to do with it? Now? You're going to play with it juggling hide.

Kyle Roed: 34:21

I love this visualization right now. I like to polish that turd. I don't know if anybody else has heard that one. But that's one of my favorites. It's just polish that

Kevin Mulcahy: 34:32

volunteer to polish it though. But it's on the table. And you know we have to do it now. What we deal with right it's there anything for

Kyle Roed: 34:49

this topic? Just Just so everybody knows we weren't planning on talking about turds, but but I love it like this is this is maybe one of the favorite tenants I've had on this on this show.

Molly Burdess: 34:58

Yeah, that was not bad. Mr.

Kyle Roed: 35:02

Kevin, this has just been an absolute joy. I'm going to put another plug in for the book. It is the future workplace experience. And I just I absolutely love this topic, the great reconnection. You know, I think it fits my worldview. Certainly. You know, Molly, I have a feeling you probably agree with that as well. And so encourage everybody to check out Kevin and his work. I do want to shift gears and go through the rebel HR flash round. Are you ready?

Kevin Mulcahy: 35:34

Okay.

Kyle Roed: 35:36

All right. Question number one, where does HR need to rebel?

Kevin Mulcahy: 35:42

I think we might have covered up a be an activist, go be an agitate for change and get your cues from the employee surveys, what changes did they want to see the workplace and manifestos bring those to the, to the people?

Kyle Roed: 36:03

Absolutely couldn't agree more. I mean, that's basically why this podcast exists. You know, the other thing I would say, too, is, you know, for, I'm sure, there's probably some folks listening out there that don't have the budget for a survey or anything like that, like, there, believe me, there are ways to get almost free surveys out there, or just ask, right, you know, stay interviews, focus groups, skip levels, walk around, talk to people, you know, like,

Kevin Mulcahy: 36:28

people, yeah, as 10 people to ask 10 questions of other people. You don't need to survey everybody to get a temperature check. It gives you an indication and links to a Google Doc, look, we have an online survey, just clicking the link fill out the trick questions. I mean, we're, we have the technology now let's use the technology we have is this is not hard.

Kyle Roed: 36:52

Absolutely. Question number two, who should we be listening to?

Kevin Mulcahy: 36:58

Employees

Kyle Roed: 37:03

kind of answered these questions through this.

Kevin Mulcahy: 37:07

We have a listen to employees. And I just add something different to that. The the ones who left us and I know we do the exit interviews. And for those that do. But I often wonder what actually really happens with those exit interviews of of employees that left and what did they say? Or employees that were offered a role? And didn't accept them? What did they say? So there's, there's two disconnects on both sides there. So you have to be listening to not just employees, but former employees and prospective employees. What do you what are your feelings about a company? Why did you apply here?

Molly Burdess: 37:59

To bring this full circle? What I find a lot of times is our employees also have assumptions about why and what we do I've been organization. And sometimes I feel like that's the most valuable feedback and that's an easy fix. Right? Like maybe I need to be more transparent here or communicate why we did this. But employees definitely have a

Kevin Mulcahy: 38:19

look. Wow. Is my favorite question. Let's let me pop it on, Molly. So Molly, what do you enjoy most about working here? In 30 seconds or less?

Molly Burdess: 38:30

Yeah, it's good one.

Kyle Roed: 38:33

You can answer it or no. The context of what do you enjoy about being a co host on the rebel Human Resources podcasts

Molly Burdess: 38:42

talking with people like me guy talking about Kerrigan, apparently.

Kyle Roed: 38:53

That is, so we've talked, you know, if I had a bingo card, we actually we have talked about coffee enemas at one point. I think this is the first altered reference that we've had. I'm sure there's some other references out there. But you know, for whatever reason, this you know, and maybe it's just because we aren't human resources. We're just used to this point, I guess. Yeah. Maybe it's just maybe it's just on the mind. What What was that Molly? Something about how thick the toilet paper was?

Molly Burdess: 39:21

Yeah, guy. Yeah. Moving on, Kyle.

Kyle Roed: 39:25

Okay. All right. Sorry. We're getting personal. Okay. Last question. In the rebel HR flasher, how can our listeners connect with you?

Kevin Mulcahy: 39:34

So I on Kevin mulcahy.com. You can find me through that website. Or just Kevin at Kevin Okay. he.com.

Kyle Roed: 39:46

Absolutely. And we will have all that information in the show notes. So open up your podcast player, click in there, check it out, check out the book. You know, just some really great practical advice here. And I just I think, you know, from my standpoint, there's a number of them takeaways for me personally, but you know, just challenging those assumptions and getting aligned on the assumptions we actually are using to achieve our mission. I think, you know, probably mission number one. So really appreciate you coming on and helping shape our perspective a little bit, Kevin, and keep up the great work.

Kevin Mulcahy: 40:19

Thank you, Molly. Thank you.

Molly Burdess: 40:21

Thanks, Kevin. Thanks.

Kyle Roed: 40:24

All right. That does it for the rebel HR podcast. Big thank you to our guests. Follow us on Facebook at rebel HR podcast, Twitter at rebel HR guy, or see our website at rebel human resources.com. The views and opinions expressed by rebel HR podcast are those the authors and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of any of the organizations that we represent. No animals were harmed during the filming of this podcast. Baby