RHR 162: The Leadership Therapist, Claire Chandler

Kyle Roed: 0:02

This is the rebel HR Podcast, the podcast about all things innovation in the people space. I'm Kyle ROED. Let's start the show. Welcome back, rebel HR listeners extremely excited for our guest today, we're gonna have some fun. With us. We have Claire Chandler, she is the leadership therapist, Claire, welcome to the podcast.

Claire Chandler: 0:26

Thanks, Kyle. It's great to be here.

Kyle Roed: 0:28

Well, we are excited to have you and if the the indication from the conversation before hit record, is as anything to fall in, this is going to be fun conversation. But before we get into into that, I'd like to understand a little bit more about you and the work that you do. So what prompted you to become the leadership therapist?

Claire Chandler: 0:51

Great question. I love that you just started off there. So it is definitely a self professed title, through about 10 plus years now of being a consultant and an advisor to, to primarily corporate businesses. I am a corporate survivor. So I spent the first 20 or so years of my career within the walls of corporate. And really what sort of prompted me to jump into the great unknown of entrepreneurial consulting really was, you know, at the time, so this is back in 2020 1120 10, I left in 2011, but call it 2010. I was literally walking down the hall from probably from the ladies room for like the 32nd window I had between meetings, to go back to my office. And I was I was head of HR at the time. And my boss stopped me. And he said, You need to tone down your walk. Said what, like, what, what now and he goes, you know, your, your your walk, it's like you've got this sort of bounce to it. And it's like very bouncy and very happy. And, you know, the rest of the char is kind of wondering if you're up to something like if you know something they don't. And, you know, spoiler alert, I didn't, I didn't change how I walked, I didn't change my stance, I didn't change my personality. I didn't damp down or tamp down my my quirky sense of humor. But it was so emblematic for me of what a lot of corporate cultures get wrong. Right? I mean, how many companies do you know, that hire or recruit for talent that has entrepreneurial spirit, and they bring those people into the company. And then the first thing they do is say, Whoa, but don't do it like that, right. And they sort of confined them to this really tightly lidded box. And so they advertise for innovative thinking and disruption, and, you know, all of these sorts of things. And then they manage toward conformity. And so, I found that to be true as a corporate employee. And that really made it easy to leave ultimately. But now that I'm on the other side of it, I find that even leaders at the highest level of an organization are finding themselves pressure to tone down their walk, to tone down their individual personality, so that they can fit into this mold of what an Executive leader needs to look like. And it, it wears on them. And it takes a toll. And there's all this, this stress, right, this pressure to achieve this pressure to perform this pressure to get other people to follow them and to achieve a strategy. And they don't quite know what to do with all of that, that emotion and that stress and that pressure to be something that perhaps they are not so this sort of self professed leadership therapy kind of came about, by my you know, my work with these executive leaders who have nowhere else to go with those insecurities and those anxieties and that stress of, you know, how do I how do I lead in a better direction and in a better way? Without doing it in a way that doesn't feel natural to me? Got it? Yeah, so

Kyle Roed: 4:13

you know, it's really interesting I the tone down your walk, comment. I'm curious, what was your reaction in the moment like, like, when somebody asks you to not be yourself, what is your response to that?

Claire Chandler: 4:26

Which was exactly what he was telling me to do, right. In the moment, it was a little bit of confusion, because I was like, you know, I and I was sort of have to strap it right, because I was on my way back to my office probably for the umpteenth conference call of the day. And it just sort of caught me off guard like I didn't see it at the time as being this. This, you know, sort of microcosm of what is wrong with corporate culture. I only saw it once. I was clear of it once I was free of that and of him. But in the moment, yeah, it was just sort of did I Hear him? Right? And what in the hell did he mean by that?

Kyle Roed: 5:04

You know, I think it's, I think this is a fascinating conversation. And and, you know, I don't think that it's a coincidence that HR is experiencing a significant, kind of a significant amount of burnout. And what I would call a little bit of an identity crisis right now, amongst kind of the, the new world that we are operating within, you know, what, what is your perception of, of how HR needs to, needs to, to work through this level of identity crisis?

Claire Chandler: 5:41

You know, it's interesting, there's kind of two levels to that, right. There's, there's sort of the the mindset of the individual HR professional, and then there's the sort of the organizational reality, how did how do they need to evolve. And I'll take that part second. But the, you know, the first part, I think, is around mindset. I talked to HR leaders and practitioners all the time, and they're the secret keepers of the organization, right? They are the ones that the rest of the organization turns to, and comes to, for everything from how to you know, how to hire the right people, how to keep them on the right road, how to exit them in the right way. And, you know, HR, it is not a shock to me at all, that there is such a high level of burnout, because they have to, they have to keep all that in, they have to do everything right. And it's sort of the, you know, the the expression, the cobblers children have no shoes, right, it's sort of the HR organization is the last to get the interventions, the development, the the sounding boards and the support that they are tasked with providing to the rest of the organization. So there's definitely this is sort of need to have an outlet, and this need to be heard and understood, just like everybody else in the workforce, that most organizations are not meeting right now. So there's, there's kind of that that mindset piece definitely.

Kyle Roed: 7:17

Yeah, absolutely. I couldn't agree more. You know, your, your experience is very similar to mine, although I didn't get told to tone down my watch. But but, you know, don't, don't be too disruptive. You know, what it would be the statement that was was, was made to me, and at a certain point, I had to make a decision whether I wanted to stay with that organization or not. Decision was was no, you know, I had to go find somebody that appreciated my, my, my skills, but I think you're so right, you know, that that works. We're taught, we're telling people to be authentic. We're telling people to, you know, bring their whole self to work. And and we're telling our workplaces to be psychologically safe. But as it relates to human resources as a profession, we're not really drinking our own Kool Aid. Would you agree with that?

Claire Chandler: 8:09

I 100% agree with that. It's almost Well, it's not even almost like the reality is we have different rules for for HR. We have different rules for the even the chief HR officer, I mean, these are conversations I have not just with the practitioners on down the chain, but with the leader, you know, himself or herself. It's interesting, just on your disruptive comment, I was having a conversation last week with with the Vice President of HR who was expressly brought in to disrupt the way that the business had always been operating. And she was told by the Chief Operating Officer, I want you to be innovative, so long as it doesn't disrupt what we're doing. Yeah, and that was kind of my reaction to it was awesome, right? I mean, you can't have one without the other, you can't innovate and then expect everything else to just hum along the way. It's always been like, it just doesn't happen. But I thought again, that was, you know, these are the kinds of comments where we see out of the mouths of babes, but out of the mouths of executives like, oh, maybe that's my next book. I'm going to trademark that. So you can't steal that Kyle. But you know, I mean,

Kyle Roed: 9:21

damn Claire Chandler

Claire Chandler: 9:22

mounds of exactly. I mean, seriously, like, what do they get? They only could hear themselves, you know, and it's it. It's part of where this whole idea of leadership therapy comes in. Because if more executives just sort of said out loud in a safe space before they went and told somebody else, tone down your walk, be innovative without being disruptive. You know, those sorts of things. They could actually sort of feel test in a safe environment. You know, the the absolute ludicrousness of what they say. Absolutely.

Kyle Roed: 9:59

But that's, you know, I I truly believe that's the, the one of the systemic issues that we face is that we use these these words like innovation and synergy and all these corporate buzzwords. But what really matters is the actual culture of the organization, and how willing the organization is to allow for innovation and disruption and change, and to allow HR to enact some of these necessary measures. So I'm curious, you know, I know you've spent, you spent a significant amount of time of your career within the HR function, as you described it, as a corporate survivor, which I love that it's like, the image that pops into my head. It's like the movie Castaway with Tom Hanks. And I'm sitting in an office and I'm yelling at a volleyball with a handprint on it. And that's the only one that I have. Because sometimes that is kind of how HR feels. But

Claire Chandler: 10:51

well, because you're not allowed to talk to anybody else. You know? Yeah, yeah. Wilson, we should all have a volleyball on the corner of her desk.

Kyle Roed: 11:02

Or yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Although, you know, maybe you can help us figure out maybe there's healthier ways than yelling in a volleyball in the corner. But that's maybe that's another podcast. But I do, you know, I do think going back to the kind of the the challenge that we face in HR, we are facing a little bit of an identity crisis. And we're being called as a function within our organizations to step up and help out with some of these disruptive things that are happening within our society. So I'm curious, given your your unique experience and the work that you're doing today? How do you see HR taking that step forward, and really going from kind of this back office function of secret keepers and administrators into a more strategic culture building type role within our organizations?

Claire Chandler: 11:57

Yeah, and I so there were two words in there, from what you just said, which we think was extremely, your entire state was very astute, but there were two key words in there, which were strategy and culture building, culture building on Canada's one because it was hyphenated, but, you know, organizations have always looked to HR to, to sort of be the voice of the people, right, bringing the people the right way, keep them on the right road, etc, and exit in the right way. But they also look at HR as being solely responsible for culture. And when they when they look at HR in a vacuum and say, we equate HR with culture, and they don't bring in the strategic piece, they're doing a disservice not just to the potential that HR can provide them, but also to what culture truly is, because culture is foundational. your culture and your mission, are, are the foundation of your company. And if you don't have a crystal clear magnetic mission, and you don't have a culture that reinforces how you're going to get there, it doesn't matter how brilliant your growth strategy might be, if you don't have, you know, the right, the right people, the right motivation, and the right clarity, to go out and achieve it. And so I think, you know, HR is uniquely positioned to change the level of the conversation around culture, so that it is more strategic.

Kyle Roed: 13:23

Absolutely, you know, I think it's fascinating, because, you know, there's all these, there's all this research that has validated that, you know, the culture makes the difference that people make the difference, you know, that's, that's what drives this, this business success. And that's, you know, foundationally, the root of a lot of business success. And so who should drive that? Right, you know, like, that's the, I think that's really the question. And I think, you know, naturally, the, the figurehead of the organization needs to drive it, but, but who are the people experts within, within the organization? Right, ideally, they should be your human resources, professionals. And so, so So what do you think it is that we struggle to get that kind of that that elevated status within our organization?

Claire Chandler: 14:13

Yes. So there's a couple of reasons for that. And in recently, I've been doing some more intentional research around what does the future of HR need to look like, not just organizationally, but from a capacity and capability standpoint. And so I've been inviting executive leaders both within HR and throughout the business to take part in a research survey. And you know, just ask some some fairly basic questions that everyone should should kind of know but what I'm after is, you know, when you look at your, the business objectives and outcomes that you need to achieve over the next five years ers. First of all, what are those? Because not everybody is, you know, adequately equipped to, to communicate with his art. But then when you look at those then alongside of that, what do you need each are to bring in order to facilitate that, that journey. And by and large, you know, there's sort of two main categories that are coming back in terms of what those mission critical capabilities are. But chief among them is a strategic perspective. Yes, around people, but also around, you know, the landscape of what does our access to talent look like? What are the skills we're going to require in the future, not just of HR, but of our workforce, so that we can stay competitive so that we can be innovative so that we can continue to grow? And so of all the areas that the business is looking to HR to provide to help them facilitate that growth journey? The biggest deficit right now, is that strategic perspective. And so it's not just that the business is looking at HR to be more strategic, because they are, they're also finding that that strategic capability is is lacking. So what do we do about that? Right, because that's the that's the golden question. I think the good news about that is the business is not trying to sideline HR, they are trying to literally give them a seat at the table, which HR has has been for decades complaining that they don't have. Well, the problem is HR keeps grabbing the wrong chair. Let me explain what that means. So for me, there's sort of these three areas of an organization that have to come together in alignment, if you're going to achieve your growth strategy. And its people process and performance rate. And so all those have to come together, you have to have the right people, they have to be completing the right processes for efficiency and effectiveness. And it all has to lead to the right performance. But then it's sort of circular. I'm almost picturing like a Venn diagram, right? Because the performance has to be something that the people kind of buy into. And, you know, and they help to, to achieve and increase over time. But here's the problem. So we know that the business is looking for HR to be more strategic HR acknowledges that, but they also acknowledged this is a gap. The business focuses first on performance of those three P's. Right? They focus first on what is the bottom line financial and operational performance that we need? And where are we today, HR walks into the room, and they don't look at performance. First, they look at people. And that's what we've tasked them to do. That is what traditionally hrs role has been is to look through the filter of people. But the problem with that is they are both tasked with putting in processes that will replicate success and engineer out in efficiencies, but they're starting from different places. So their processes are not in alignment. Okay, so now you've got all these three P's all over the place, and they're almost like bouncing around link pinballs. So here's the golden opportunity for HR, rather than HR doubling down on talking through the lens of people, they need to be talking through the lens of that sweet spot that lies at the intersection of people processing performance. So again, if you picture that as a Venn diagram, what is that sort of middle ground where all three come together? And it's really around purpose. It's really around, why are we in business to begin with, right? And so it's not easy, but it's simpler than HR has typically made this conversation. They need to not just walk into the strategic conversation saying, Well, what are the people we need? Who do we have? Who do we lack? We'll get there around people. But first, they need to ask better questions that start with why that start with, why is this business in business? Why are we here? Why are these the the five year outcomes and milestones we're trying to achieve? Right? The more deeply they can ask those why questions, the more easily they can see the connection between the people they're trying to bring in the processes that they're going to follow to get them to work more effectively, both individually and together, and the performance and the performance they are trying to achieve as an organization. So, you know, HR still trying to crack this strategic nut of how do we get more strategic? How do we see around corners and how do we get invited to that to the table? It's, it's really by stopping just, you know, sort of showing up as the people department and really starting to change the conversation to a more strategic and cohesive level.

Kyle Roed: 19:48

Absolutely, I love how you put that into terms that are simple for myself. But I think it's so true, you know, it's it. If you to only focus on one of those three areas, you're going to leave something out. And if you if you're misaligned on the actual mission of the organization and the priorities of the organization, then whatever you say, is not going to have any sort of gravity to it. Right? You're gonna be put into a, like, into the corner, like, oh, that's the people person, we should probably ask about, you know, we should ask the people person, but you're not going to be asked about anything else. That's right. Reality is, you know, that, that's going to hurt your your ability to influence.

Claire Chandler: 20:35

Absolutely. And you know, and it's, it's not just incumbent upon Hr to change the lens that they're using, they also have to influence the business to look beyond just the performance lens, because that's bought, that's a bottom line, almost lagging indicator of the decisions that you've made, right? If HR can't get the business to focus more broadly on Well, what does that translate into, in terms of processes in terms of of people? Again, I think HR has such a great opportunity to elevate that conversation, and truly make it more strategic. Because the business kind of Pat's itself on the back and says, you know, we're, we're the strategic arm of the company, we're the ones who are going to get to grow, we've got a clear vision for where we want to be in the future. But you can't do that without the right people, the right culture, the right processes, the right alignment, the right buy in, right. So rather than dismiss, you know, and as you said, kind of put HR in the corner, and say, Well, we're gonna bring them in, when it comes when we get down to the people discussion, right? It has to start with HR, because HR is actually in there facilitating that conversation at a higher level. Because it's not, you know, and I'm sure you kind of beat your head against the wall, too, when you when you hear that age old phrase of every company that says are our most important assets or people? Well, first of all, they're not assets. Great, they're people's. And, like, if you don't know where you're going, and why you're going there, you may not have all the right people in the first place. So it's, it's absolutely a very integral part of the conversation. It's not the sole part, but neither is the bottom line performance.

Kyle Roed: 22:18

Absolutely. Yeah, I think it's, I think this is a really powerful conversation. And, and, you know, I think about it in the context of, you know, operational excellence, right, like we, we've been on this journey to make things more efficient, for decades, right. And we're getting to a point where, like, businesses, like work is becoming very transactional. And I think, you know, the natural ripple effect of work becoming more transactional jobs becoming more transactional, is employees are treating jobs as more transactional, ie, there's no loyalty to the job that they're doing. Because they're, it's just a transaction, I get a paycheck, I do this work. If I don't do the work, well, I don't get the paycheck, I can go find another paycheck, you know, as opposed to looking at it and a full perspective of let's start with, where are we going? Let's make sure we've got those, those kind of that that Venn diagram and alignment. And, and let's make sure that we are, you know, proactively a part of this discussion, I, I just think about, you know, if all we're looking at is, is the actual, you know, the performance that's so reactive, right, like, it's like that, you're just honestly, you're you're like, you're like reading a book about current events, like six months later, because truly, you know, every decision you're making in the boardroom, when do you actually see the ripple effect? Right, you're not seeing it next week. Now, I hear about it next week, but you're not actually seeing any requirements. Right. Yeah. next quarter, if it's extremely aggressive, right, but it's like, you know, that, that, yeah, we, it's just very reactive. So you know, and that's where I think HR is I look at our role, we are actually being called to the table now. And let's, let's hold our seat by proving the worth and value of the organization that we oversee. And at the end of the day, help organizations succeed, right. I mean, that's, that's really the point. Like, it's not about like, My ego is bruised, because I don't have a seat at the table. Right? No, it's about I need a seat at the table. So we can win. And we can we can succeed as an organization to fulfill our mission, our vision and our values. And it has to be,

Claire Chandler: 24:31

yeah. And it has to be a very complementary relationship between HR and the business. Right? It can't be well, the business is going to do the, you know, the grown up work of building the strategy, and then we'll call in the HR representative when we're ready to talk about who we need to hire. And then they turn around and slap them because you know, they're not doing workforce planning or they're not hiring the right people or we have a high turnover or, well, if not all of that is in alignment. Of course you're sort of setting yourselves up you're setting HR to fail in You're setting setting up the business to fail. Just Just a point about, you know, you were talking about how we've gotten much more transactional. And I think that is 100%. True. And some people want to blame the millennials for starting all this right for saying, well, Millennials don't really have a work ethic, they don't want to pay their dues, they just want to, you know, find a job that's going to support their, you know, their lifestyle and their hobbies. But honestly, the more you talk to millennials, the more you understand that they were onto something. And now, you know, now we've got like, Gen Z, oh, my gosh, you know, what the biggest the biggest struggle is for people leaders right now with dealing with Gen Z, is that when they pull them into a meeting, they're on their phone the whole time. And the interesting thing is, I was having lunch with a bunch of HR executives last week, and we were talking about that. And they said, Well, here's the thing. They may not just be you know, they're first of all, they're not doing Candy Crush, apparently, that's an old person's game, whatever, fine. But they're not others clown necessarily, because they're goofing around. That's how they're taking notes now, right? They're using their app for you know, their note taking app or whatever to, to not just to take notes on what they're hearing. But then they're also using their internet connection to go out to Google and help curate other things that create a deeper context around what they're learning. So we can learn something about you know about that. But you know, the this concept of sort of the world and the work becoming more transactional, that is true. But what I'm also seeing is, the more future ready organizations are starting to embrace the gig economy, they're starting to embrace the fact that they don't need to have a workforce that is traditional, you know, Monday through Friday, nine to five full time employees with all the benefits of the framework that that that comes with, they're starting to understand that if they focus first on why they're in business, where they're trying to get to, and what they're going to need to do that, then they can go out and actually bring in the right people for the job at the time. Right. So there's sort of this, it used to be value for money, there's sort of this value for energy, that we're looking at an appreciating war. And I think, you know, that that's another conversation that each are can get in front of and lead is, you know, how do we create more value for the energy that we are asking for, from our workforce and from our contractors and from our freelancers? And how can we do that in a way that creates a community of talent, rather than a workforce that, that people just aren't believing in anymore?

Kyle Roed: 27:36

I love that term community of talent, right? Because that's really, you know, that's really what you're trying to do, you know, as long as you're operating within the, you know, legal confines of, of course, classification.

Claire Chandler: 27:48

It's, it's that piece that HR is always going to be called upon to, to assist with, right, and legal and in all of that, because at the end of the day, those sorts of compliance things are there, the table stakes, right, those are the those are the minimum price of entry for an HR function. But they can be so much more once they standardize, and they do a shared services model that actually works and creates efficiency, they can be having these, these future leaning conversations that actually move the needle for the business. Absolutely.

Kyle Roed: 28:23

Yeah. You know, I couldn't agree more, I think it's, you know, it's about being open minded to, to the ways in which we work through people right in. And I think, you know, and everybody listens to this has heard me talk about this multiple times. But you know, we just can't do things the way that we used to do it 40 or 50 years ago, the world is different than it was and but we're still trying to force the exact same policies, procedures and protocols that exists within the people function that were created decades ago. And you know, that that's just not what that's just what not what employees contractors, you know, people that are working with your organization want anymore, necessarily, some people still do. You know, full disclosure, I am technically a millennial, but I am considered I might geriatric millennial at this point, I noticed a smirk. So yeah, you said that I was co three kids in a mortgage, and I'm like that to give me Yeah. Okay. I do think that, you know, the whole cell phone phenomenon. It's like, you know, every HR professional that's tried to get rid of cell phones in the workplace is they've hated their life, right? Like it just doesn't, it doesn't work doesn't work. And that is that is everybody's lifeline. That's their that's their calculator. That's their, like, Google. Yeah, Google, like, they're probably learning. They're probably voice memos and everything that's happening right now. So they can refer to notes later. You know, like, and, and, you know, is as long as it's not disruptive in the workplace. It's just it's no different than me with my notepad in

Claire Chandler: 29:59

a simple are disruptive going back to this the CFO who, you know who said to the to the HR executive be innovative without being disrupted? I think the word disruptive has it has a negative connotation, right? Because people equate that with chaos, and disruption and chaos don't have to be the same thing. You can't do innovation without disruption. But you can do those things without it creating chaos. And I think that is the deep seated fear in executive leadership everywhere, right? We know we have to change we know we have to do things differently. We know we may have to reinvent you know, our our brand, I was having a conversation again last week with an HR executive who said, you know, we have this, this probably century old brand, and I won't say the name of the company, but it is traditionally known as a very I don't want to say conservative, because that can have a negative connotation in today's environment as well. But it's very like stodgy slow to innovate, reliable brand. Well, you know, if we look at where talent is going now, and they're, you know, there's more of this concept of a community of talent treating value for defining value for energy. They are having problems, attracting talent at the leadership level, to help innovate the company, because the people that they want to bring in, see their brand as old, reliable, and old, reliable, doesn't innovate or reliable, as reliable because they don't change. And so you know, this is sort of this, this, this dichotomy as well, right? You can innovate, you have to be a little disruptive, but you don't have to be disruptive in terms of blow up everything that you're doing and start from from the rubble, you start by asking better questions in getting more deeply ingrained in why are we here? Why do we want to grow? Where are we going? And why does that matter?

Kyle Roed: 31:57

Absolutely. The other way I would think about that, too, is Okay, so let's use this, let's use this analogy. Let's overlay it on on HR. So if you continue to do things the exact same way that you do today, what will happen? The same result, right. So if you're, if you're dissatisfied with where you sit in the organization, or the or the level of, you know, executive support that you have, or your seat at the table or or what have you, then you'd have to do something a little bit different and you can do it, you can do incrementally disruptive things in a very positive way. That will cause positive ripples, and that will allow the momentum to continue to make more and more positive disruption within an organization. So couldn't agree more clear. With that being said, we are in the nearing the end of our time together. I'm fascinated to hear your response to the rebel HR flash round questions. Are you ready? Sure. All right, here we go. Question number one, where does HR need to rebel?

Claire Chandler: 32:54

You know, it's hard. It's hard to answer this question without going back over what we've already talked about, but it's really around, stop waiting for a seat at the table, stop grabbing the wrong chair, and start asking better questions that aren't narrowly focused on the people lens.

Kyle Roed: 33:11

I love it, I love it. Stay Stay broad and strategic. Question number two, who should we be listening to?

Claire Chandler: 33:20

We need to be listening to our people. We have to we have to, you know, really lean into what they are telling us and what they are not saying. That is where a lot of the pockets of innovation and intentional disruption are going to happen. They just want to feel heard. And it's about time we did that.

Kyle Roed: 33:43

Absolutely. All right, final question. How can our listeners connect with you two

Claire Chandler: 33:49

easy ways one is LinkedIn come find me there we can drop the link to my profile in the show notes and also my website Claire chandler.net where they can learn more about my work check out my blog and podcast interviews such as this great one which will go on as soon as this goes live. And also if they if they want to learn more about me or want to work with me there's a way that they can do that.

Kyle Roed: 34:12

Absolutely we'll have all that information in the show notes so open up your podcast player click in get connected. Claire has has some some wonderful content and I'm sure she'd be happy to help out any listeners that are looking for it I love I want to close with the your your LinkedIn tagline which is leaders shaped culture, culture drive success. So Claire, thank you for joining us Claire Chandler, everybody, the leadership therapist. Thank you so much. Thanks, Kyle. All right. That does it for the rebel HR podcast. Big thank you to our guests. Follow us on Facebook at rebel HR podcast, Twitter at rebel HR guy or see our website at rebel human resources.com. The views and opinions expressed by rebel HR podcast are those the authors and do not necessarily rarely reflect the official policy or position of any of the organizations that we represent No animals were harmed during the filming of this podcast

Claire Chandler: 35:10

and maybe