Rebelling Against Command and Control: Championing Trust and Inspiration with Stephen MR Covey

Speaker 1: 0:03

This is the Rebel HR Podcast, the podcast about all things innovation in the people's space. I'm Kyle Rode. Let's start the show. Welcome back, Rebel HR community. We have an honored guest with us today, so so excited. With us we have Stephen MR Covey. He is the author of Trust and Inspire and the Speed of Trust. He has been an influencer in our space for years and I am so thrilled and honored to have him with us. Thank you, Stephen, for joining us today.

Speaker 2: 0:39

You are welcome, kyle. I'm equally thrilled and honored to be with you for this podcast.

Speaker 1: 0:44

Well, thank you so much, and before we hit record, I was just I was totally fanboying over here. It's like full circle that we've got the Stephen MR Covey on the podcast, considering the fact that one of the motivating pieces of content and literature was the speed of trust that motivated me to start the podcast here so many years ago. So, stephen, thank you so much for spending some time with us today.

Speaker 2: 1:09

You're welcome. I was thrilled when you shared that story with me. This is one of the motivators to get going on this podcast and I'm really humbled by that and excited.

Speaker 1: 1:20

Well, yeah, I really, really appreciate your time and appreciate all of the content and thought provoking work that you've done here over the years and that your organization, franklin Covey, has done over the years with training courses and books. There's so much great content in the library there. It's just, it's been amazing. So, with that being said, today we're going to be talking all about trusting and inspiring, and the book that is available now is Trust and Inspire how Truly Great Leaders Unleash Greatness in Others. My first question to you is what motivated you to write a book labeled Trust and Inspire?

Speaker 2: 2:06

Yeah, two key things. First, just seeing how everything, all these new forces of change, have just hit all at once. The nature of work is far more collaborative and interdependent than ever before. Technology is changing everything, with disruption and the pace of change and the amount of change. But also the nature of the workplace is changing, with suddenly remote work, hybrid work, intentionally flexible work, all these new options.

Speaker 2: 2:37

And then the nature of the workforce has changed, where we have these younger generations, gen Z, the upcoming alpha generation, with completely different expectations of how they want to be engaged and led. And then even the nature of choice has changed, where we've gone from maybe what we might call multiple choice to infinite choice. We're able to have options in a way that they didn't have before, where I can live, hear, work there, all these forces of change. It's really a new world of work, and a new world of work requires a new way to lead, to continue to lead in the old way, the old model of leadership. In a new world it's not going to be relevant.

Speaker 2: 3:22

I like how the paraphrase Marshall Goldsmith what got us here won't get us there, and the style of leadership that maybe got us to where we are today is not the style of leadership that's going to be needed to take us to where we need to go tomorrow and in this new world of work.

Speaker 2: 3:39

And so we need a new way to lead in a new world of work, and the new way I call trust and inspire, in contrast to the old way, which, for simplicity's sake, I call command and control. That we've gotten better at through the years, a more sophisticated, more advanced, more enlightened version of command and control, but still command and control versus trust and inspire. So all these forces of change driving around us is one of the key reasons that we've got to have a new way to lead in a new world of work. But here's the second one. It's just looking at how, almost if you go around and ask HR professionals anywhere this question, how many of you believe that the vast majority of the workforce inside of your organization has far more creativity, ingenuity, capacity, knowledge, insight, wisdom than their current job requires or even allows them to contribute? Almost everyone would raise their hand and say mine does.

Speaker 1: 4:52

People have my hands up.

Speaker 2: 4:53

They were able to give Right and we're able to give. And then the second question, the follow on, is and how many are under intense and growing pressure to achieve more with less? And almost all of us would raise our hands to that. And so I kind of you know what's wrong with this picture. We have to do more with less and yet people have far more to give than they're able to give.

Speaker 2: 5:20

That to me is a failure of leadership that we're not leading in a way that is unleashing the potential, the greatness, the talent that's inside of people. And we've got to find a better way to lead than the way we've been leading. And again I'm calling that trust and inspire. So that's more the emotional connection. The first one, more the intellectual. You know, a new way of a new world of work requires a new way to lead. But the second is kind of just saying people have so much more inside of them that we're not unleashing. You know, in service of the organization, our mission and our clients and our culture. We've got to tap into that. We've got to lead in a better way.

Speaker 1: 6:02

Absolutely, and you know I couldn't have said it better myself. There's a reason we labeled this thing rebel human resources, and that's because we believe that there is change, some positive disruption for the better that needs to occur. And I think it's really fascinating the way you open the book. You talk about the old paradigm of leadership, this command and control, and I literally remember when I started early in my career, we were literally using those terms as it relates to what we defined as leadership was you need to make sure you are commanding and controlling, and it was a manufacturing environment. You know, we had all the buzzwords, all the lean manufacturing buzzwords, but we literally use those words.

Speaker 1: 6:46

So when I flip through the book, I'm like, oh yeah, this is, this is hitting home for me, but it's a little bit. It's a little bit thought-provoking and and I love what you just said about the aspect of the emotional aspect here where we know that people have more creativity, they have more to give that, but we aren't Allowing that right, or or? Or the environment's not allowing that, or or. You know there's something missing that's allowing people to truly connect with that kind of that higher purpose that they have, and one of the One of the things that I love about your writing and it's the same in the speed of trust is you do a really nice job of putting this into models, and I'm a picture guy, so so I love the, you know there's, there's some diagrams or some pictures.

Speaker 1: 7:33

There's some tools within the book that helps us kind of break this down into something that's actually actionable, and one of those, one of those tools is what what you've described as the three Stewardships of a trust and inspire leader, and I really like that framework as we start to think about how we, how we define a trust and inspire leader. So can you walk us through those three steward ships and and how we should be thinking about that in human resources?

Speaker 2: 7:59

Yeah, absolutely. And first of all, let me begin by talking about the word stewardship. That's really part of the paradigm shift and that we need for for the kind of leadership needed today that that leadership is Stewardship. It's about responsibility, not rights, influence, not position. Leadership is a choice, not a position, and these are inherent responsibilities, implicit in being a leader. So just the very idea of a stewardship, you know, you know, versus three leadership rights.

Speaker 2: 8:33

Now, these are three leadership stewardship responsibilities that we have a job with, a trust. There's three of them and they're simple, they're just not easy and I think people, when they hear on, they say, yes, of course, but sometimes, sometimes our style can get in the way of our intent. And so here's what they are first, modeling, second, trusting and third, inspiring. So we have a stewardship to model, to model the behavior that we would like to see To go. First. We have a stewardship. Second, to trust and to extend that trust, to give the trust, to be trusting of people, so we unleash the potential and their greatness. And then, third, we have a stewardship, a responsibility, to inspire those around us, those who are leading, to model, to trust, to inspire. Modeling is who we are trusting, is how we lead and inspiring is connecting to why it matters, and and and so those stewardship kind of comprise this, this new way of leading, this trust and inspire approach to leadership. I just didn't call it model, trust, inspire. I called it trust and inspire For simplicity and also to be, to be in contrast to command and control. You know, command and control, trust and inspire. But there's really three elements of it we model, we trust and we inspire. And and that kind of leadership is what's going to bring out the potential, the greatness that the talent that's inside of people and and and Really create the kind of culture, a high-trust culture, where people do feel inspired and there's a whole nother level of of, of Both productivity that people have inside of them when they feel inspired, as well as creativity, an Innovation that can come out of them, but also Greater well-being, greater energy, greater joy. It's just so much there's, you know, so much more that we can tap into Inside of people and that they want to have for their well-being, their energy, their joy that they would like to have as part of the culture that will keep them with us Because they feel like we are, you know, seeking their best interest and we are unleashing With their capacity and they love that. They want to be trusted, they want to be inspired. So we model, we trust, we inspire.

Speaker 2: 11:03

I could give a just a brief illustration of a great leader who did this share. I think of Cheryl Batchelder at Popeyes. When she became the CEO of Popeyes, you know she walks in. They'd had four CEOs in the prior seven years Popeyes, the fast-food franchise and she comes in a completely different kind of leader and the kind of leadership they'd had prior where they'd really there was almost a breakdown between the relationship of the franchisees with the home office. There was low trust and they'd not only didn't trust each other, they didn't really like each other. And and and she comes in and, just, you know, models the kind of behavior that that she would like to see, that they would like to see, with humility, balance, with courage, but also with empathy, with listening and understanding. She's going to any conversation to try to understand, first the perspective of franchisees and everyone that she came in contact with, but then also modeling around delivering results, performing, delivering what they were looking for, and and and. So she modeled and people like that. They felt heard, they felt Understood, they felt valued. But then she trusted and she had actually had people on her team that said you can't trust them. She says, if we can't trust them, who can we trust? You know, with there there are partners. And so she let out with that extension of trust. She was trusting of her franchisees, of her partners, of all the people that she worked with.

Speaker 2: 12:40

She went first in trusting others and then she inspired. How did she inspire? By by Connecting with people through a sense of caring, genuine caring, deep caring, and a sense of belonging that we belong to something where part of this part of our identity is tied to this a real connection with people through a sense of caring and belonging, but also connected people to purpose, to meaning and to contribution. Long story made short, she began to really create a different experience internally, with their own people. Externally, in the marketplace, with customers and partners. They began to win in the workplace with their own people, which helped them win in the marketplace with customers and partners, and they began to unleash the greatness of their organization.

Speaker 2: 13:29

By first unleashing the greatness of her people. She modeled, she trusted, she inspired and, among other things, they went from a 14% market share to 27%. They went from a stock price of $11, a share to $79. Again, these economic, these financial wins that I believe came about because they first unleashed the greatness of her people, of the culture that was inside of everyone. She modeled, she trusted, she inspired.

Speaker 2: 14:01

In a very similar way, sacha Nadella did the same thing at Microsoft unleashing the greatness of that organization by first unleashing the greatness of the people by modeling, by trusting, by inspiring, by implementing these three stewardship, by carrying them out and it's really remarkable that these are this unleashes the potential, the talent, the greatness is inside of people to have a leader that models, that trusts, that inspires, versus a leader that kind of waits on everybody else and that tries to command and control their way through a position and the like, and waiting on everybody else and then just directing and requiring or enforcing and trying to just motivate only instead of inspire. You know, relying on reward systems only, nothing wrong with reward systems, that's motivation. But we wanna move to inspiration where it's internal and intrinsic inside of people, to light that fire within. So, and I describe it, those are the three stewardship you model, you trust, you inspire.

Speaker 1: 15:09

Well, just for our listeners, just so you know, I literally had a question about motivation versus inspiration and Stephen is like reading my mind, but I think, first of all, you know two great examples of leaders that have trusted and inspired.

Speaker 1: 15:26

I tend to agree with you where you know these financial wins and the stock price wins and all these things, these headlines of these wonderful companies, you know that's a tail effect, right, that's a ripple effect from effective people practices At least that's been my experience in my career. So I tend to agree with that. I do wanna, I wanna circle back to your comments on motivation versus inspiration and in the context of human resources. So often we get caught into this trap of thinking about inspiring others to do things in the context of things like rewards systems or, you know, incentive systems and motivation systems, and so often I think we miss the boat on the bigger picture, which is that, yes, rewards and compensation and benefits and all these things are important, but they're not the reason that people give extra discretionary efforts, not necessarily the reason that people will go above and beyond or make wonderful things or have great innovation. So can you walk us through that difference, the nuance between motivating somebody to do something and actually inspiring somebody to do something.

Speaker 2: 16:42

Yeah, fabulous Kyle. I'm glad that we're going deeper in this, because I think this distinction is really important and I think it's part of the whole rebel HR mindset of seeking the breakthrough and the way to think about it is less good and bad, and either or, but more and and then going beyond. So look at it this way motivation is external, it's extrinsic, it's outside of us, and so we're trying to move people to do something. So it tends to be kind of reward systems and heavy carrot and stick. Motivation is the traditional command and control. So you wanna you know, does that work? Do reward systems work? Sure, they motivate people, they move people to want to get more rewards, but the only problem is that we have to keep well, two problems. First, we have to keep providing more external stimuli you know, more carrots, more sticks to keep moving people, because we have to move them through this approach. But also, though, we're still not tapping into what's innate and what's inside of people to begin with. That goes beyond being moved to do it, but rather that people choose to do it. They feel compelled because it's in them. You're tapping into something greater, which is where inspiration will take you.

Speaker 2: 18:06

So inspire, by contrast to being external, inspire. Inspiration is internal, it's intrinsic, it's already inside of people. What we're trying to do is light the fire that's within. That fire, once lit, can burn on for months, if not years, without the need for constant new external stimuli, and it can take you to completely different places. The motivation will never fully reach where people feel inspired to bring forth their best effort, their best work, their best thinking and creativity. They choose to give it, they volunteer it, and the fire is lit. And the Latin phrase for inspire is inspirare, which means to breathe life into. So you say trust and inspire breathe life into relationships, into teams, into cultures, whereas command and control often tends to suck the life out of. So I'm not against reward systems, we need that, we need motivation. I'm just saying it's incomplete. We can have that and then go beyond it into inspiration, where people are inspired by purpose and by meaning, by contribution, and by a sense of identity and belonging and a real sense of caring which moves them to a whole new place altogether. And so it's not either or it's, and it's a little bit.

Speaker 2: 19:41

Maslow's hierarchy of needs and motivation can take you so far up the hierarchy. But really what will move people not only into Self-actualization, but even where we're mad. Maslow later amended his hierarchy of needs and added you know, self-transcendence, you know which is contribution Purpose. That's where inspiration will take you. And and there's a I'll just cite one study this is a study from Bain and company, the consultants, that shows that that employees who are inspired Are a hundred and twenty five percent more productive than merely satisfied employees, and we might expect that because satisfaction is not the highest bar. So 125 percent more productive than merely satisfied employees, but listen to this. And they're even 56% more productive than fully engaged employees, which is where we've been focused on and motivation can move you towards engagement.

Speaker 2: 20:48

Again, I'm in favor of motivation, moving us towards engagement, and I'm saying that the highest manifestation of engagement, the highest form of engagement, is to be inspired. So even something beyond that, where there's another level of productivity, another level of creativity and innovation and I'm gonna come back to the value to the employee, another level of well-being, of thriving. Microsoft is measuring thriving, you know, not just mode engagement, but the employee thriving To be inspired. And others are measuring you're being inspired. So that's the idea, is, is, is not either, or it's and but it's. It's a sense of Completing of what's possible inside of people. That includes motivation, but goes in so much beyond, and that's what people today People, I like to say people don't want to be managed.

Speaker 2: 21:46

What do you want? To be led? They want to be trusted, they want to be inspired, they want to have that life breathed into and they want to have their fire lit. That you know, and you know lit candle can light another candle, but another lit candle Can't light another candle. So to inspire others, be first Need to become inspired, or so that's all part of this, this stewardship. We have to inspire others. That's model.

Speaker 1: 22:13

I Love that. I love that. Hr, be the candle. Don't be the snuffer. Go first.

Speaker 2: 22:24

Absolutely.

Speaker 1: 22:25

I love it. Side note, it's so funny you mentioned Maslow's hierarchy of needs because literally a couple weeks ago we just debunked the myth that there's five, there's actually eight, and like we had a whole paradigm shift on the Maslow's hierarchy and he said now all of us HR professionals work, we're questioning who we are at the core of ourselves, because now that now this charts different than we, then we thought, but I think you know I there, there's so much you know amazing content in there and and I think it's it's really important for us to remember that you know this is this is an and equation, right, and it's it is so much about trust. To circle back with where we started this conversation, it's funny that you know we're talking about the changing workplace and the different generations and a little bit of a you know of a shift in in workplace and workspace. But the reality is all of these principles matter as much, if not more, in the new work world of work, and you know, I think so much and there's so much you know kind of noise and headlines around. Well, how do we, how do we manage this new world of work?

Speaker 1: 23:39

What it sounds like to me is this is how we manage it right and, as opposed to thinking about it as managing it's, it's about how we lead and how we how we get other people to be Inspired as opposed to trying to force them to do something, and so so I'm curious, because I guarantee that there's people listen to this podcast that are like, you know, this sounds great and, yeah, we understand that trust isn't important, but you know we're giving up a lot of power by leading like this. So what do you say to people who are, who are worried about this, like this shift or or or Shift away from, like having this control into what, what some might say is a little bit more, more Open-ended, or, or you know, the? The comment that you made earlier was well, we can't trust them, right? So so how do we, how do we shift our thinking and what? What's your response to people who are maybe kind of thinking that or have that as a Responses?

Speaker 2: 24:35

well similar, like we were talking about motivation and inspiration and the and approach. You know the third alternative, that great inspiration will include motivation as well as a base. See the same thing for this kind of leadership that in a sense, in a sense, the opposite of Command and control is not trust and inspire, I just put it this way, the opposite of command and control I would call advocate and Abandon. You know, where there's no leadership, there no expectations, no accountability, no direction, no vision, where? So if command and control is excessively hands-on, you know, except you know excessively hands-on time, micromanaging, advocate and abandon is excessively hands-off no leadership, no expectations, no accountability and and that's not gonna work, no more than excessively excessive micromanagement is gonna work very well in a new world. So trust and inspire is really a third alternative. It's hand in hand, we're doing this with each other and we're building the agreement together Around, around the results that we're seeking. So I'm gonna argue there's all actually more control in a trust and inspire culture. Then there is even in a command and control culture, because in a command and control culture that the control comes through, that, the micromanagement, the hovering over and and and and through rules. In a trust and inspire culture. The control comes through the culture itself and through the relationship and Through the agreement that you build together With expectations and with accountability. So you build the agreement around the trust that you're extending and giving and Then the agreement governs. You don't have to hover over, micromanage people, but you haven't lost control because you built an agreement and people report on how they're doing against the agreement you built together. But you don't dictate the agreement to the MC. A command and control leader will just dictate the agreement, say here's how, here's how we'll judge you and here's how I'll see how you're doing. And they dictate it. A trust and inspire leader builds it with them and there's far more Buy-in to it because there's more involvement, there's more commitment to it, there's more buying. Those achieve it better and I'm gonna argue there's more control in this agreement you built together and be. People evaluate themselves against the agreement, they report back to you and how they're doing it looks and feels different and yet there's more control in it. So I see it as a third alternative and and to those that argue that this seems soft and weak, I'm saying you're describing abdicate and abandon, not trust and inspire. This is a third alternative as a trust and inspire leader. You can be authoritative Without being authoritarian, you can be strong Without being forceful, you can be visionary Without being exclusive, you can be even detail oriented Without being trusting, and you can be in charge and have control without being Controlling. But you do it through the agreement that you build together and it's really powerful and so. So that's my response to. To the kind of the cynic that saying this sounds nice but it sounds soft and weak, I'm saying no, this is actually the strongest form of leadership we can lead with today.

Speaker 2: 28:06

Maybe one last idea, framing on this third alternative idea and you mentioned it, you know about management leadership. Again, it's not management as bad. Leadership is good. They're both good, they're both vital. We need good management, just like we need good leadership. The key is the context. We manage things, we lead people and we need great management of things, of systems, of structures, of processes, of tools, of inventories, of the numbers of the business. We manage things but we lead people. But sometimes we've gotten so good and managing things that we start to manage people is If they were things, and if we doing that in this new world we might end up with no people in a lot of things, because they have choices.

Speaker 2: 28:54

They can go elsewhere. It was not either or it's. And manage things, lead people let's get really good at this and trust and inspire Equips us with both Mindsets for the different contexts that we bring to it. So I think this is actually strong leadership. Has control built in a different kind of control. It's not hovering over micro management, but it's rather control through the agreement we built together, through the context of the culture and the relationship that we've established.

Speaker 1: 29:24

That makes sense, absolutely, yeah, absolutely, and I think it's you know, the what.

Speaker 1: 29:31

What's really interesting about this, this approach, is, you know, a lot of times I think the perception of command and control is, you know, it's all about always understanding what's happening and tracking, and you know, verifying, and you know the Micromanaging I think it would be a common definition there and a lot of times we can, like, trick ourselves into thinking we actually know what's happening or we know what people are doing, but the reality is I, at least in my experience, a lot of times, when there's an absence of trust in that style of management, you actually don't know what's going on, because people are afraid to tell you and so that you know they're there, maybe they're modifying the system so that it looks like something's Happened, but I, a lot of times, you're surprised and it actually it's a lack of control that actually exists in a system, because, because you don't have that level of trust and and and you don't, you know, you don't have the inspiration for people to be inspired enough to say, hey, if we make this decision, this is what's gonna happen to the customer sentiment down the road, because this is what you know, like you, just, you won't have that dialogue, you'll have more poor results, right?

Speaker 1: 30:36

So I I think to that point a little bit of a light bulb moment for me. It was like well, command and control you don't. You might even know what you're trying to control. You might not even have the right information.

Speaker 2: 30:46

That's terrific. That's really insightful. I agree completely that even the control that you have is not as robust as you thought it was, because it's not, anyway, it's not dealing with the real issues. You're only getting what people are willing to say, what they dare to say and willing to speak up about, but not everything else. That's truly happening, because there's fear and and they're not gonna say it and and so there's a whole lot of things that you don't even know about the Organization or the culture and it's not being volunteered. So your control is is a false sense of control. It's really not as robust in any sense and as real as this other yeah, I think anybody listen to this podcast, right?

Speaker 1: 31:29

first of all, I don't think that there's anybody listening to this podcast. That's like arguing against this. It's more like I think that context is important for the people that are gonna push back on HR Professionals that are pushing for this most right most commonly, but I think every HR professional right now is just kind of smirking themselves and going, yep, I, I can.

Speaker 1: 31:47

I've seen that so many times where we all think that we know what's happening, especially in the board room or or in a conference room or a meeting, and then we go out and we talked to that one person, one person out there on the floor that knows exactly what's going on, and they tell us the truth. And a lot of times HR is the middle person between that, where we're trying to convey the reality of what's happening to leadership and we're kind of we can, we've got a front row seat to the the.

Speaker 2: 32:11

The ineffectiveness of this style at times, oh, yeah, and I mean I do think HR, hr can be the catalyst To help shift the paradigm. I agree to bring this about to give people a new vision of when we can go and why we need to go there and why this is a better way to lead. And and they can speak week when we speak the language of what the the line leaders are wanting the business leaders are wanting so that we're relevant to them, but but paint the vision of what's possible in their language. That's where we really make a connection and show that we understand the business and we know how to lead the business to that point. And, and I think HR can lead this like no one else for all those reasons and I do agree that this probably resonates With the HR professional that says I know I've been trying to say this and I'm trying to give the language of how we can connect it to the very things that the line leaders want, which I know is what the HR team is wanting to do as well, and so it's really a powerful connection. But here's the thing for all our progress that we've made in the HR community and the leadership community Towards, kind of some of my hear this and say this is really not, is this really a new way to lead?

Speaker 2: 33:29

Haven't been talking about this for the last decade plus? Well, we have, but we're still not doing it. Yeah, and the data shows that it's still. About nine out of ten organizations are still Trapped in some form of the command and control model. You know, it may not be the authoritarian approach, it might be the more enlightened version of it, but still the majority, the vast majority, are still trapped in in command and control. And I argue this to know and not to do is not to know. So we're still not.

Speaker 1: 34:06

The fact that we're not doing it means that we still haven't made the leap, broken through, shifted the paradigm, and we've got to do that, and I think HR can give me a catalyst to lead us towards that Absolutely, and I think you know to that point and I've always said this you know HR is in a unique point, in a position where we have a lot of we have a lot of power, whether we realize it or not, and one of those areas where, where we have the ability to really shape in an organization is is the learning and development journey that we take our leaders through, and so one one thing I did want to talk about maybe going back back to the speed of trust is I know that there's been a Focus on on updating some of the content to be more reflective of the shifting World of work, and that that you've got some new courses available specifically to help HR professionals on their learning and development Related to trust and a couple new workshops.

Speaker 1: 35:07

Can you tell us a little bit about the, the workshops the leading at the speed of trust and working at the speed of trust workshops that you've been working on?

Speaker 2: 35:13

Absolutely. Yeah. This is all about helping leading leaders and teams and organizations build high-trust teams, high-trust cultures, getting good at this. And we've had these workshops really for for a decade plus that, you know, 15 years plus. That have been superb. We just have a new, refreshed, updated version of it. So those that have used the speed of trust stuff, it's just a refreshed, reimagined, updated version for our time.

Speaker 2: 35:42

And what I would highlight is that that that we've also got now we're showing how trust is built through our credibility in our behavior, which is kind of the essence of the speed of trust, of helping people do it intentionally, on purpose, and giving them a framework in a language, in a process of how to do it.

Speaker 2: 36:00

And now we've gone and going to another level of saying not only can we do this as leaders and as as a Individuals, but we can do it as a team and as an organization and build a high-trust culture and but a high-trust team.

Speaker 2: 36:14

We've got a whole new module on building high-trust teams Through credibility and behavior and high-trust relationship with customers and partners through credibility and behavior. It's just so practical, so tangible, so actionable. So I think that those that are familiar with this already will love it, because it takes it to a whole nother level, and those that aren't familiar with it, this will be kind of a natural next step to say, okay, how do we if, if building a high-trust team and culture is so important, how do I lead that from HR? And this will help you do precisely that. It gives you the language, the framework, the process of becoming intentionally good at building trust on purpose in our teams and organizations, and so we're excited, delighted about what we've done to make this so fresh, so relevant in our world today, which it really is, and it really kind of is fitting this language to trust and inspire, of really being where you know, meeting people, where we're at and where society is at and people are at today, to keep this fresh and relevant for others.

Speaker 1: 37:24

Absolutely, and you know maybe a comment on that you know I've used speed, of trust and those types of tools for many years as a practicing HR professional. I try to give it to any leader that's going through some development with me. One of the I think the one of the really powerful things about that book is it gives you a structure to talk about trust. It's not this nebulous concept. It actually gets down to building out some language around it and some protocols to think about, and once you start to use that within your organization and with your leaders, it's pretty amazing to see that start to become pervasive throughout the day-to-day conversations and culture and it really can help reshape your workplace. So I would strongly encourage anybody to check that out.

Speaker 1: 38:13

I think I can guarantee you I haven't got to the new workshops yet, but I can guarantee you that it's gonna be well with your time. So, with that being said, you are an extremely busy man and sincerely appreciate your time. We are quickly coming to the close of our available time together. I'm fascinated to hear your responses to the Rebel HR Flash round. Are you ready?

Speaker 2: 38:35

I'm ready, yeah.

Speaker 1: 38:37

All right, here we go. Question number one where does HR need to rebel?

Speaker 2: 38:43

HR needs to rebel against command and control and say there's a better way to lead, and it's trust and inspire. And I know that they rebel already in the paradigm. Now I think we need to shift beyond the paradigm, into the language, into the systems, into the structures and the practices, so that we're saying we must make this shift, because I believe that command and control is the equivalent of modern day bloodletting, if you think about it. Bloodletting went on for 3000 years, started with the Egyptians, went into the Romans, but it persisted. And even when it was disproven that it doesn't work the disease was not in the blood. That was in the 15 and 1600s it still persisted for another 250 years. It was still practiced because old paradigms die hard. And so, while the HR I think community gets it that we need to make this shift, I think the practice of command and control leadership is still the common practice and that is modern day bloodletting.

Speaker 2: 39:57

We need to rebel against modern day bloodletting and say no, we've got to lead in a new way. And it's in our language, even the idea of top down and hierarchies and the front line and rank and file, it's just in our language. We gotta choose different language. In our systems. We look at high potentials what does that say about everybody else? And how do you see others? And we look at the structures and the processes and there's just a lot of rebelling.

Speaker 2: 40:31

We need to do and say no, it's not span of control, it's span of care, as Bob Chapman says and others, and we're gonna rebel in our language and our systems and our structures and our processes, in our tools, and we're gonna become trust and inspire. And so that's it. We gotta rebel against command and control, not just in the paradigm, which I think is where it starts, but in the systems and the structures and the processes and the tools and in the very language that we're using. And I think we can rebel and be the catalyst to change the way that we practice this in all its respect. We can get rid of bloodletting.

Speaker 1: 41:10

And we can do it faster than 250 years.

Speaker 2: 41:13

So I, we can do it faster, we can do it so much faster.

Speaker 1: 41:15

Couldn't agree more. What very well said. Question number two who should we be listening to?

Speaker 2: 41:22

Thinkers, leaders, practitioners that are saying this very thing that we need a paradigm shift. We need a sea change, a dramatic shift, not a incremental shift. And because incrementalism won't get us to where we need to be, it won't build a high-trust culture that inspires and it won't help us collaborate and innovate in a changing, shifting, disruptive world, it won't do it fast enough and we don't have the 250 years, we don't have two and a half years. We gotta move faster. And so leaders and thinkers I'm just thinking of Francis Fry and Ann Morris, harvard Business School, francis Fry, who wrote Unleashed and this new book, move Fast and Fix Things that are just saying we gotta move fast and fix things. We gotta new paradigm, unleashing everyone and the potential, the greatness.

Speaker 2: 42:21

And I'm thinking of Aaron Meyer and Reed Hastings and the no Rules Rule that they've employed at Netflix. That includes getting rid of controls as you increase the trust and the straight talk and all the things that are happening to try to unleash the controls that are in place, that are traditional, and we've gotta get rid of them in a way that really is working. And so thinkers like this Doug Conant, great practitioner, thinker, who wrote the blueprint, and others that are thinking about whole new ways of leading so big paradigm shifters that are not into incremental shifts and change but into seed changes and dramatic changes. And I'm trying to say the big shift is to move from command and control to trust and inspire. That's the type of thing that we need.

Speaker 1: 43:17

Love it, love it.

Speaker 2: 43:19

The world's not changing incrementally, it's changing exponentially right the world is changing exponentially and our style of leadership needs to change exponentially with it. You need to get ahead of it.

Speaker 1: 43:30

Absolutely last question how can our listeners reach out, connect with you and get their hands on the book and the workshops?

Speaker 2: 43:36

Wonderful. Well, go to trustandinspirecom, which is a website, and there you can get the book. You can get other resources, tools, ideas, thinking around this, and I'd love you to connect with me. I'm on LinkedIn. You can follow me on LinkedIn, also on X, the old Twitter, and on Instagram at StevenMRCovey. So follow me, go to trustandinspirecom, connect with me and love to be able to help in any way that I can, that we can.

Speaker 2: 44:13

Our team. This is exciting work and I would just say this to you and HR you can go first. Someone needs to go first. Leaders go first, and as an HR professional, you can go first. I'm right now working.

Speaker 2: 44:28

I'll give you two cases of the HR team going first, the HR leader going first. One where we're dealing with an organization that is going through all kinds of change and but they're trapped in a command and control style of leadership. They almost don't see it. They're like fish that discover water less or so immersed in it. They're not even aware that it's in in how they're leading. But the HR team is the team that's putting up the mirror, but they are modeling by first applying this within their own team and they're going first and they're helping them. The rest of the organization see that they can do this. But they're seeing a model by in the HR team by showing them there's a better way to lead and look how we're doing it. That is pretty remarkable and they're helping and they're helping the rest of the team see how they can do it too.

Speaker 2: 45:19

And then a second example of when I actually highlighted in the trust and inspire book of how a huge paradigm shift happened where the CEO got behind all the changes that needed to be made and everyone says we need a CEO like that. And what I point out is that it didn't start with the CEO, it started with the leader of HR. They began to implement these changes within her organization, her team, and as they did it there, they then began to work within the partner organizations that they serve with as partners and they began to see the business leader would work with the HR partner and began to see a better way of working together, began to model, it began to bring it in there and one by one, almost business unit by business unit, it got brought to the CEO of a better way to lead. And finally the CEO said gosh, I'm talking to several of you. My director reports you're doing this in a different way and don't we need this for the whole organization and bought into it organization-wide? And you love that.

Speaker 2: 46:18

And I've had people say, gosh, we need a CEO like that. And I say yes, but it didn't start with the CEO. It started with Janita, within her circle of influence, bringing about this change within the HR team, and it rippled out and then up and then down throughout the entire organization. That's what we need and you and HR can go first.

Speaker 1: 46:41

I love it. I love it, steven. It's been absolutely amazing to have you on the podcast. Thank you again so much for joining us. Thank you for all of the wonderful content and I can't wait to see what you come up with next. We will have all those links in the show notes. Please open up the podcast player. Check it out. You will not be disappointed. Steven, mr Kavya, everybody. Thank you.

Speaker 2: 47:05

Kyle, let me just say this it's an honor to be with you, I appreciate you. I feel like I'm talking to a kindred spirit, I agree and really a co-catalyst to up, unleash the greatness of our organizations by first unleashing the greatness of our people. And that's the whole idea and I love the whole premise of Rebel Human Resources podcast, rebel HR, and that's the kind of sea change that we need is taking this on, and this is an extraordinary place to rebel against leadership style. And so let's rebel and let's go from command and control to trust and inspire. And thank you for being a catalyst, a co-catalyst with me to help bring this about.

Speaker 1: 47:48

I'm just going to leave it right there, steven. Thank you so much. The honor is all mine. Thank you for everything over the years and for the continued inspiration. Thank you, you're welcome. Thank you, my friend. All right, that does it for the Rebel HR podcast. Big thank you to our guests. Follow us on Facebook at Rebel HR podcast, twitter at Rebel HR guy, or see our website at rebelhumanresourcescom. The views and opinions expressed by Rebel HR podcast are those of the authors and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of any of the organizations that we represent. No animals were harmed during the filming of this podcast.

Speaker 2: 48:30

DANY.