Challenges of HR in DEI

Speaker 1 0:03

This is the Rebel HR Podcast , the podcast about all things innovation in the people's space . I'm Kyle Rode . Let's start the show . Welcome back Rebel community , extremely excited for the conversation today . With us we have Dr Anna Maria Lopez Caldwell . She is a leadership consultant and coach . We're going to be talking about all sorts of topics related to cultural competence and diversity , equity , inclusion and belonging . Dr Anna Marie , thank you so much for joining us today .

Speaker 2 0:38

Thank you so much , Kyle , for having me here today . I'm very excited to get to chat with you today and to share with listeners as much as I can .

Speaker 1 0:47

Well , likewise and this has been a long time coming , so we've been corresponding here over the last couple of months and finally the date has come that we can connect , and just been wonderful to get to know you here over the last few months . So the first question that I want to learn a little bit more about is what motivated you to become a leadership coach and consultant ?

Speaker 2 1:14

Absolutely and yes , likewise , I'm very excited to be here today , and that is a great question and one that I'm really passionate about . And the reason why I'm so passionate about being a consultant and coach is because of the support that I got when I was a school principal , and I needed guidance and support as I was leading an organization . So I was in New Orleans running an early college program called Bard Early College , and that was happening through the pandemic , through Hurricane Ida , and I am a Latina , I'm originally from Columbia . I came to the States when I was 13 years old and I was tasked with the responsibility to lead a program that was 95% Black New Orleans , and I entered the organization in a moment where there were a lot of decisions that needed to be made , a lot of systems that needed to be created and there needed to be a really strong emphasis on equity as we were establishing the organization and as there was a need for a shift in terms of representation of the faculty and staff that looked like the student body and there was a lot of community engagement and questions that were coming up , and , as somebody who did not represent the student body , I was faced with challenging questions in terms of how to be equitable , how to be fair , how to hold people accountable in a way that was following and prioritizing the needs of the organization .

Speaker 2 2:58

And so I came up against a lot of questions of identity and a lot of just need for support , in some ways felt alone and not completely seen as the intersectional person or like the person with the many identities that I hold , and in other ways , I recognized a lot of the way to hold privilege and had a huge responsibility for this role , and so I worked with an executive coach that became a huge supporter , the person that I would go to to talk about different dynamics , different difficult decisions that I needed to make , that really wanted to focus on how to be restorative , how to be equitable and how to really think with folks .

Speaker 2 3:48

And so , yeah , this executive coach that I worked with was really transformational in terms of understanding myself , have a lot of clarity in terms of the goals that I needed , one of those goals being also making sure that the organization was going to eventually represent the student body and that it was in a good place where I could leave in . I'm very proud to say that happened , and so , yeah , fast forward to now , I now do that . On the other side , I'm the executive coach that works with a lot of leaders . I work with CEOs , presidents , you know so people in the C-suite as well as folks in middle management , and I support them with a lot of interpersonal relations and issues that they may be having , as well as anything in all things management and leadership , both at the one-on-one level as a coach and also as a consultant , more at the organizational level . Yeah , absolutely .

Speaker 1 4:48

And you work with a number of different organizations and you've got a really interesting and diverse background .

Speaker 1 4:56

It's a little bit different than a typical kind of a corporate leadership coach .

Speaker 1 5:01

Right , came from education and have a background in philosophy as well , which I think makes a lot of sense , because a lot of times we get into these discussions around leadership , around DEI , and a lot of them do come down to kind of philosophic and psychological discussions and these really complex topics that aren't maybe as accessible for us as we think in conventional tactics .

Speaker 1 5:43

So one of the things we wanted to talk about today , and one of the things you've got a really , really interesting perspective on , is the challenge that HR professionals have related to DEI . So a lot of times we are kind of the de facto DEI people Because we're the people , people right . So it makes sense that we get heavily involved in these matters . But there's a natural point of conflict , and that's one of the things that we're going to talk about today is kind of the natural conflict of an HR professional trying to do what they're doing their best to support DEI . So I want to maybe start off with your perspective on what is the role that you see human resources playing as it relates to diversity , equity , inclusion of belonging .

Speaker 2 6:38

Absolutely . I'm so glad that we're talking about this today , and this is something that I noticed and I experienced as I work and I consult with a variety of organizations of different sizes and different visions and missions . Thank you , thank you , dei , and this idea of a DEI officer , a champion of sorts that works within an organization , is often couched within the umbrella of human resources , which , at first glance , it makes sense because of the very things that you were mentioning . You all , as HR , are responsible for for all things people , all things , interpersonal relations , leadership , development , learning , growth . To a certain degree , that makes sense .

Speaker 2 7:30

What I see happening time and time again is that folks are often set up for failure . The reason for that I mean , there's many reasons for that , but one that we could discuss today is the role that HR has within organizations . If we think about HR , hr has a history on compliance , has a history on for a lack of a better way of saying it keeping up with the status quo or being aligned with the rules and regulations that an organization has . It's all about staying and working within systems . Then , if you think about DEI , or this idea of social justice or this idea of equitable working environments the core and the background of this type of work is pushing up against systems that already have been created and are hegemonic systems in terms of the world and our society and , let's say , in the context of the United States , the way things are .

Speaker 2 8:43

This idea of social justice questions those systems , calls out ways in which those systems at baseline are inequitable and disadvantage majority of folks , disadvantages people who will be categorized as being identified as having a disadvantage identity , whether that's race , gender , ethnicity , sexual orientation , et cetera . The role of this DEI people in organizations is to recognize those patterns and is to push back against those patterns and is to change the way people operate within an organization . When you think about the core and the history of those two very different functions and then you couch them under the same umbrella , inherently there is going to be contradictions that take place in organizations . This is something that I noticed when working with folks who fall in that category . There's a lot of ways in which they do not have alignment and they come up against a lot of pushback .

Speaker 1 10:00

Absolutely , you know it's it's .

Empowering Change in Organizations

Speaker 1 10:03

It was fascinating to me when I was when I was early in the HR function , you know that that I realized , as we were dealing with some of like employee challenges or issues or or terminations or some of these kind of less fun things that the HR has to deal with sometimes , I realized that our job wasn't necessarily to do the right thing . Our job was to not get sued right , or to or to make sure we were quote in compliance with some sort of a best practice right Quote he's really big air quotes around best practice right and what . What's .

Speaker 1 10:46

What's interesting to me is , you know , as the you know , the longer I've been in the profession , I feel like there are , you know , there are many situations where you really have that choice , where you have the choice to take the path that's maybe less friction , where you just kind of tow the company line or what's happened in the past Try not to make too big a waves and just kind of , you know , keep the company out of .

Speaker 1 11:12

You know hot water , or you really focus on the kind of the humanistic element which , which doesn't always line up with what the easiest path is , right and and and I think I think you said it really well that a lot of the work in DEI is it's disassembling these structures that haven't worked or these systems that have not worked for everybody . Right , but in order to do that , there's a lot of discomfort , and so so , as you're working with with the , the leaders that you help coach , and as you're consulting with organizations , what are some of the things that we should be thinking about as we are identifying these structures and systems that are not working for everybody , and how can we overcome that resistance , that barrier that we face either within the organization or within ourselves , knowing that we're going to have to face some conflict ?

Speaker 2 12:13

Absolutely . I love that you asked this question because , yeah , there's a lot of ways and strategies and hope for ways in which we can move the needle and we can improve the way that people are able to feel a sense of belonging and feel a sense of psychological safety at the workplace , based on some shifts that can happen . And so a really important one is power . It comes down to power right as we think about how we're going to structure an organization and where DEI may be couched within an organization , whether that's in an HR function or not , because the idea behind this is to push back and to shift systems and to sit in that discomfort . If this person or if this strategy around DEI does not have a strong backing that is centering power , then they're going to be set up for failure . And the opposite of that is that , as you think about the way an organization makes decisions and the way the power moves on an organization , think about ways in which you can incorporate DEI at the core of those functions . So , if you have four vice presidents that are focused on finances , operations and whatever other function , depending on what you do , maybe DEI is another function , is one of the folks who are at the table , making those decisions at that level . Think about the power that your deliverables and your KPIs may be at the end of the year . What is the weight that you're putting on these outcomes around DEI ? Is this an afterthought or something that is showing up through and through ? And so this idea of power is really important . You want to think about the power that you're giving the specific person or department , and that it's not all lip service , but it really mirrors the way the organization moves power , and there's the power that we all understand and know because it's concrete , and there's also all of those invisible ways that vary from organization to organization in terms of power . So be really aware of that .

Speaker 2 14:36

The other one is community engagement . Like the answers are , the people have the answers , and people and leaders oftentimes shy away from getting enough community input , getting enough input from really all of the folks who are impacted by the organization , for fear of getting requests that they may not be able to meet or worried that certain things there's fear around asking for community engagement . Let me put it that way , and that's okay , that's understandable , and it doesn't mean that it's okay to not do it Like , it's okay to sit in that fear and it's important to push through it . And one piece that I noticed time and time again this is something that I help coach , I support leaders often Is that idea of basically sharing power , or another way to say . It's like figuring out how to ask other folks to really inform decision-making .

Speaker 2 15:42

The piece that's missing for people is that they think that they have to . It's like an all or nothing , like I need to , you know , like if I have to create a strategic plan and I need community input , that means like I'm not gonna have decision , like I'm gonna have to give the decision-making power to the community and like what if things go like a really weird way ? Like how am I going to control that ? Right , and the part that I work with leaders a lot is it doesn't have to be all or nothing . What we need is to come up with a strategy that's informed by leadership .

Speaker 2 16:21

Based on leadership has a lot of information that the rest of the people may not , just because they're in a privileged position .

Speaker 2 16:28

To understand finance is to understand goals , to understand direction of the organization , et cetera .

Speaker 2 16:34

So it's important for leadership to create a container , to create those boundaries and then ask for that feedback within the boundaries of what other people actually have the power to influence , to change , and when that happens , then a lot of that fear goes away and a lot of the like really innovative ideas and buy-in and way forward can really happen . Right , because now you're not over promising something that you cannot deliver as a leader , but you're being real clear and real transparent about what people can and cannot inform , and that over time you'll get more and more comfortable doing that and it'll be easier and you're going to gain trust from your people . So , to sum it up , some like really strategic ways in which you can really move the needle is to just think about the way power moves and give power to people to really focus on community engagement and to ask for feedback in a way that is transparent , and that you are creating boundaries in a container for people . That is true and it's not just like lip service .

Speaker 1 17:46

Absolutely . Yeah , I love that you went there because I think many people in my seat like we want to engage the community but we know like the worst thing we can do is ask for feedback and then not do anything about it or not be able to do anything about it right . So it's like you have to have the ability to impact something based upon the feedback that you're sourcing . So I wanna talk a little bit more about that power piece because I wanna reflect on that . As an HR professional or even just as a people leader , I think a lot of times we underestimate the amount of organizational power and influence that we have in our seats , and I am a strong advocate that , as the leaders of the people function , hr professionals need to take a really , really good hard look at the systems that they are supporting . And the reality is that the systems and structures and paradigms that we have all been kind of trained in and educated in and working under haven't really been working for everybody within our organizations , and I don't think that's a surprise to anybody or really even a shocking revelation at this point . But I think the thing that I struggle with , or that maybe many of us get frustrated with is . I think a lot of times there's this feeling that there's this inability to change these things , but the reality is we do have that power , and so I think that focus on that power and the things that we have the power to impact and the ability to control matter .

Speaker 1 19:38

So you mentioned a number of different things around structure . Well , who owns org structure ? Well , hr owns org structure , right . Are we giving a budget to whoever the DEI owner is , specifically for those topics , right ? That's a form of power , financial power , right ? Like you have to be asking these questions , otherwise it's a hollow and empty exercise and , again , you might as well just not fake it so Absolutely .

Navigating Cultural Competence in HR

Speaker 1 20:10

So one of the other areas that I wanna talk a little bit about and you've got a really interesting perspective on this is the fact that the other thing that HR is asked to be is a cultural champion within our organizations , and I think a lot of times it's we talk about this , the topic of culture , and we don't necessarily do a good job of really defining what we mean by that , and a lot of times it's a little bit of a euphemism for the culture of the people that are currently in power , as opposed to a culture again , that works for everybody , and so I wanna spend a little bit of time talking about cultural competence . So , as an HR professional and as a champion of the culture , how can we ensure that we have a competence related to our culture but other cultures that works for everybody ?

Speaker 2 21:13

That is a wonderful question and actually I wanted to respond to your comment on power , so I think I'm able to connect that with your followup questions . So let's try that , okay , so just closing up on this idea of power , you brought up something really important , which is the power that you all have within HR to have budgets , to create and revise systems . And something I noticed as an external consultant when working with HR departments is that sometimes HR departments are , say , tasked with recruiting diverse candidates and somehow in the pipeline they're not getting the type of candidate that they want . Very kind thing that happens , and the HR folks are working really hard , they're going through all the steps and really truly committed to this thing . Yes , somehow somewhere along the lines is not working , and what I wanted to call out here is that what I often notice is that then , let's say , there's a brainstorming conversation with other members of the organization and this concern about recruiting more diverse folks comes up and HR tends to tense up and get defensive , which is natural because , from their perspective , they've been working so hard at trying to make this happen and they're working in systems where it's hard to yield those results .

Speaker 2 22:52

One could say that right , and what happens . That's where it stops right . Like there is this like you know , kind of just like block , roadblock , where folks are like , okay , you know what , we're trying our best , you're not seeing me as a whole human for like doing what I can and you're like underestimating how much I care about this , and then people tend to just like get defensive and close off . And so when we go back to this idea of power , what's really important here is to just not take it personal , if possible I know it's not always easy and recognize that the problem still is there and that it is really important to find out like what it is that's preventing your outcome to happen right , and to figuring out how can you leverage your power . In this case , one way in which you can leverage your power is to survey , is to basically find data to help you inform where it is in your pipeline that you're having that issue and then be able to course correct in a way that you're able to find the results that you want and that you're not getting . You're not letting like that defensiveness get in the way , which happens often because of the sensitive nature and like the assumptions that happen when we're discussing these ideas of inclusivity and so , yeah , so I wanted to close that loop as we were talking about power , because I thought that was really important .

Speaker 2 24:25

And it relates back to this second question around cultural competence , which is something that you all are expected to do , and the reality is there's so , you know , there's so much diversity , there's so much culture , um , and it can feel overwhelming , um , to think about , like , what's the best way to do that , what's the best way to support people ? You know , like , how can I like not say the wrong thing ? Like what if I get canceled ? Like how can I be like outward enough , talk about all of this topics in a way that like is supportive , without like pushing the line or like you know , like there's this really like interesting line that you all are also navigating and there's a lot of fear around it , which I understand . Um , and so my general advice there is to practice , um , appreciative inquiry , um , and this idea of appreciative inquiry , which I know many of the listeners and I'm sure you have as well , kyle are familiar with , and I would be remiss not to just talk about the importance of appreciative inquiry as a way to really , uh , be very , you know , become more and more culturally competent over time , because it takes . It's like erasing this idea of problem solving , which is something we are all trained to do .

Speaker 2 25:48

We're all trained to be problem solvers and that's something really important , uh , in terms of our outcomes and how we are able to to be critical thinkers , and when we , uh , when we apply problem solving to engaging with other humans , that framework is inherently going to make us think that we are solving a problem when somebody's telling us about something that's different than what we think is the norm . And so , you know , I don't have time to go over all the details about appreciative inquiry in the few minutes that we have left , but I would just encourage folks to look at that framework and , essentially , which is this idea of approaching somebody else from , like , coming from a positive place of curiosity , a place where you want to learn about somebody else , even if that means what somebody else is telling you , um , is , you know they're facing some some difficulties , uh , because of their identity , whatever that may mean . You know , instead of trying to fix that problem for them which is something that we do naturally , automatically , because we're problem solvers instead of saying like , oh , you know , you're having , you're having problems because you use a hearing aid . How about it's ? Reframe that in your head before you say and say , oh , you're using a hearing aid and you're able to do a BNC . That's really impressive that you're able to navigate that world and do both things at the same time . I could learn so much from you from that regard .

Speaker 2 27:23

Right , and that shifts the dynamic . You're no longer telling somebody how to navigate their own identity , but you're , you're , you're appreciating their identity , and that allows for open conversation . That , um , long term , is going to really help you build authentic relationships with people and really help you get the insight that you need to be able to support different people depending on who they are . So that's more at the individual level . Uh , just some important tips in terms of how to improve your communication skills . Now , when we think systemically , there's also ways in which we can think about , uh , how to support employee resource groups , for example . Uh , and how to uplift voices and once again go back to this idea of community engagement . Uh , to make sure that folks are informing systems rather than , um , basically the other way around . Um , just being really careful .

Speaker 1 28:20

Absolutely To , to , to steal from , uh , from a Ted Lasso quote , right , it's , it's . You know , being curious , not judgmental , right ? And yeah , I think that's a great , you know , it's a great reminder . Like , we all want to fix problems , you know , and we're wired to try to help people out and make things better , and but , but sometimes people just want to be seen , they just want to be heard , they want to be respected , and you know , I can't tell you how many times it's just sometimes just listening and asking a question , truly from just a place of trying to understand and can build a relationship and and the strength and and an understanding , uh , that you just didn't have before , and and ultimately , all those , all those little connections on on the personal level , they really do ripple , um , you know , and I think it's , it's , it's getting rid of these assumptions and and , um , you know , being being open minded , um , and I think the other thing too , I , I , I appreciated you , you know , kind of calling this out Like I think a lot of us are afraid of of sounding insensitive .

Promoting Cultural Sensitivity in HR

Speaker 1 29:30

Nobody wants to be . Very few people actually want to be disrespectful , but they're afraid that if they ask a question or say the wrong thing that they will be disrespectful or they'll , you know , somebody will be upset with them . Um , and I think it's okay to to admit that you know . You don't know , like you don't know , that you don't know what this person needs , right , the only way you'll find out is by asking . Um , you don't know if the system is working for this person . The only way you'll find out is by asking , right , and being open minded . And if you approach these interactions in that way , um , you're not , you're going to learn yourself personally , but you're going to make it a better place to work and people will , people will respond .

Speaker 1 30:11

You know , I , I , you know one of the areas , I think , one of the areas that , uh , that we were talking about before I hit record . That , I think , is interesting and I have the I love the opportunity to work on it with an international company , cause I get to work with people that speak all different languages , that live in all different countries around the world , and one of the areas where this is like a great , like a really simple example , is language . You know , there's a lot of people that speak a whole , a whole lot of different languages . English may not be their first language and one of the first things that I always do when I'm , when I'm interacting with somebody where English is not their first language , is make a comment that I ask them how many languages do you speak ? And you know , a lot of times , you know , as an , as an American , like I , speak one , right .

Speaker 1 30:53

So , so a lot of times it's usually it's like three , four , seven . You know , it's like , it's like crazy , how , how amazingly intelligent some of these multi-lingual individuals are , and the first thing I like to say is , well , that is , you know , I only speak one . So congratulations , you're already winning , right , but it's , but it's like just being curious about the languages they speak and understanding that a lot of times that can just be enough to show , hey , I'm , you know , I'm curious about you and your background . It also , if they're not really comfortable with their English , it also makes it a much better interaction , right . So , something as simple as that . It makes it a safer conversation , it's a safer space , and you know that's as an HR professional , I tell my managers to do that same thing and to treat everybody that way . You know , in that , in that context .

Speaker 2 31:41

So , anyway , I love that , kyle , because you're demonstrating there , like , the difference between departing from departing from a place of scarcity versus departing from a place of abundance . I can tell you this from experience , as somebody whose English is my second language and I have an accent when speaking English . I don't feel this way anymore because I've worked through this , but for a really long time I would speak English in a way that I would be nervous , I would hesitate and if I , you know , I would be ashamed if I said something wrong . And you know I was able to shift that mindset and to realize like I speak multiple languages , right , like that's amazing . And if I make a mistake every now and then , and if I have an accent , like so what ? Right and when ? And that activity , that exercise that you did , is basically shifting that mindset and like demonstrated to the person that you're talking to that you recognize the impressiveness of somebody being multilingual , right , even if they have an accent , even if they may hesitate to say something , and that shifts the dynamics . So that is super important . And then I also wanted to respond . You talked about , like asking questions and , you know , like being able to engage in that fear .

Speaker 2 32:58

I'll say just a couple of things here .

Speaker 2 33:00

One is that is one of the beauties of having an executive coach is that sometimes , you know , like , what I'm doing as an executive coach is the is the emotional labor of explaining some of the cultural , you know , like questions that people may have In a way that's not exploitative , and so that's something I guess that's a plug right there like really important for leaders and for HR folks to , to use that as a resource when , when working with folks .

Speaker 2 33:33

And the other thing and that's something that I also work in coaching is helping individuals be really clear on their values when people hesitate and make mistakes , which we all make mistakes when we're communicating with other people . But what the difference between people who are able to take risks and make mistakes and continue growing and eventually feel really comfortable , are people who are very clear on where they stand in terms of their values . And that's not . That's something that sounds easy but it's actually really hard and that requires a lot of process . So the more clear you are on your values , the easier it is to have new ones conversations that may be delicate .

Speaker 1 34:21

So , yeah , Absolutely All right . Well , we are coming to the end of our time together here , so I want to thank you again , Dr Anna Maria , for for the time and just some really great , great feedback . How can our listeners connect with you , get get in touch with you for your services and learn more about your offerings ?

Speaker 2 34:42

Absolutely Well , Cal . It has been a pleasure chatting with you . I have love , love , love this conversation . Folks can . Folks can find me on LinkedIn . You could just search me as Dr Anna with one , N Maria Lopez Caldwell and feel free to connect with me there . You could also find me on my website , which is Anna Maria L Ccom , and you could subscribe for my newsletter there as well . I facilitate , I offer trainings . I do one on coaching . I also support lat Latino ERGs . I do a lot of group coaching and support for the ERGs , and something that we didn't talk about but that's really helpful for HR is that I also train HR practitioners and mentors that work with Latinos around culturally sensitive like . I offer trainings so that when they're engaging with each other , they can do so from a respectful and supportive way . I would love to continue this conversation , so please reach out , even if it's just to chat .

Speaker 1 35:50

Thank you all for listening so much , Absolutely , and we will have all that information in the show notes . Open up your podcast player , click on it and get connected . Dr Anna Maria , thank you so much for for for spending some time with us and helping us all focus on this really critical topic . Thank you Absolutely .

Speaker 2 36:08

You all have a great day .

Speaker 1 36:10

All right , that does it for the Rebel HR podcast . Big thank you to our guests . Follow us on Facebook at Rebel HR podcast , Twitter at rebel HR guy , or see our website at rebelhumanresourcescom . The views and opinions expressed by Rebel HR podcast are those of the authors and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of any of the organizations that we represent . No animals were harmed during the filming of this podcast .

Speaker 2 36:37

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