Episode 74: Humanity Works Better with Debbie Cohen and Kate Roeske Zummer

Debbie Cohen: 0:00

If things aren't right in your workplace, the only thing you can change is you because believe it or not, when you start to change, the people around you will start to change.

Kyle Roed: 0:10

This is the rebel HR Podcast, the podcast where we talk to HR innovators about all things people leadership. If you're looking for places to find about new ways to think about the world of war, this is the podcast for you. Please subscribe, favorite podcast listening platform today. And leave us a review revelon HR rebels. Alright, rebel HR listeners extremely excited for this week's show. We have two wonderful guests. So I am out number but really looking forward to the conversation. And this has been a long time coming. So we connected and scheduled this back in July of 2021. And by the time this thing comes out, it's going to be almost December so but it's really going to be an exciting conversation. And we're going to be talking about their new book coming soon here humanity, or better. Today, we have Debbie Cohen, the chief investigation officer and co founder of humanity works. And Kate Ruski Zoomer, the chief inspiration officer and co founder of humanity works. Welcome to the podcast. Thanks,

Debbie Cohen: 1:21

Kyle. So thank you here.

Kate Roeske-Zummer: 1:23

Delighted to be here.

Kyle Roed: 1:25

Well, really looking forward to it. And I've just got a number of questions that I want to get into. But I think the first question that I'll I'll ask both of you is what led you to write the book, humanity works better.

Kate Roeske-Zummer: 1:42

So we wrote the book, because we wanted to write a book that was accessible for you, you being somebody who is in an organization, and wants to have that organization feel more human. Because working together with with people is messy. And people most people don't know how to navigate that well, and and that can that can stall productivity, it can make your workday feel very long. And and we wanted to give people some real skills that would help them feel more connected to each other as human beings. And our belief is if we do that, then business wins.

Debbie Cohen: 2:27

Kate and I both you know, it's been decades inside organizations and just watched life sapped out of people. And really, you know, watching decades where we looked at process efficiency, and how do we get leaner and meaner and faster. And then we watched efficiency take hold, and how do we actually get fewer people to do more, and that just left the workplace to plead it. And from that place of scarcity and depletion, we watched really bad behaviors begin to emerge. And the really best of humans get lost as they were begin. They were being treated more like resources, and not like humans. And as we stepped back and looked at our work, our commitment to the world, what we want to bring to the world, which is, you know, a place where we're really, the world of work works better, we thought the answer to that is, Well, geez, let's look at bringing more humanity into the workplace and looking at how to help people navigate from a relational component. The roadblocks that we saw people hit were so often roadblocks tied to how to be with one another, not what to do. These are smart people, they know what to do. But what trips them up so often, either internal roadblocks, or working with others was just how to be in good relationships. So with that, cheese, let's write a book about how to be more human with one another, Hey, we should build a whole company about that.

Kate Roeske-Zummer: 4:04

And there's a there's a way to where it's so easy. And we see this in organizations to deflect the problem over there. It's them. They're the ones that are doing this, he needs to do stuff. That's right. And and and this really comes out of our own experience in terms of the work that we do in organizations. But we we actually wanted to write this book, because for you, and give you the reader real skills in tools that you can do, because that is the only thing that you can control is you

Debbie Cohen: 4:42

right? In the book we say if things aren't right in your workplace, the only thing you can change is you because believe it or not, when you start to change, the people around you will start to change. And so any change has to start with yourself. And so that's where our practices and our skills are really aimed at approachable, pragmatic, practical things that anyone anyone can do.

Kyle Roed: 5:10

It's really interesting. And I'm, you know, I'm kind of furiously taking notes and reflecting on what you what you both just share it. And there's, there's so many like, like, there's just so much truth in everything that was just shared. But the one thing I've just, I just, I'm laughing internally is, and my mom is a listener to this podcast. So shout out Mom, thanks. That's at least one download a week, that's pretty cool. When I was going into human resources, at one point, she said, human resources, taking the human out of HR. And, and, and at the time, I was like, Oh, you're so cynical and jaded. That's just a silly joke. That's funny, but you know that. But the more I'm in the profession, I do reflect on how easy that is to do. Sometimes, and if we're not intentional about that in our organizations, some organizations more than others, it's, sometimes as an HR practitioner, it's easier to do the job. If you take the H out of HR, and you truly do just focus on the resources component, like numbers and productivity. And, you know, and, and don't take into account the relationship component. But and I feel like some of us have probably lost our way along the way, in HR, and are maybe trying to find our way back to the kind of the joy of, of solving people problems and helping organizations succeed. Or maybe are realizing that the profession isn't what we thought when we when we got into it and are struggling with that. So if I'm thinking about this in the context of organizational leadership, and you mentioned that, you know, you have to control what you can control. And that means you start with yourself, what guidance would you give to an HR practitioner, or HR professional, who is who is struggling with bringing humanity in the workplace and making their place a great place to work?

Debbie Cohen: 7:30

So this is the instigator in me.

Kyle Roed: 7:35

I love it.

Debbie Cohen: 7:36

Yeah. So um, so I got into HR, not because I believed it was a noble profession, that because I believed it was the heart and soul of the fuels and organization. But it was so broken. And I thought I can sit on the outside and complain, or you step inside, and you see how hard it is to do that work. And y'all know, it's super hard to do that work? And the answer, I think, to your question is, you have to know why you're in it, and what you believe, right? And so my beliefs about human potential, are deeply grounded in who I am, how I've educated myself, the experiences that I've had. And so for me, a fundamental belief I have about human behavior is that we're all self motivated to move and act on the world in ways that give us meaning. As I began to lead HR functions, that belief guided everything I did, everything I did, every decision I made. So then as I started shaping teams, we had to decide how do we have to show up as partners to our business to live that. And what happens if if we can unleash that potential into our organization? What's possible from a business outcome? And that's really the 25 plus years I spent inside organizations, what I brought into the organization was starting with as the leader of the function, what do I believe about humans and their potential? And then how do I build a function and unleash that potential into an organization and watch what happens? And so examples, right, here's like a practical one. Everybody on this call, at some point or another, had to deal with performance improvements, putting people on pips, and we all know, like, the PIP is really if we're going to be honest about it. It's just like the next door step to leaving somebody in the organization and protecting the organization's back end. And so, I got a a HR business partner came to me one day and was telling me about this person, they're about ready to play Put on a pip. And it made no sense to me. What she was telling me about this person made no sense to what I knew about this person, from a personal relationship with them, we write about this in the book, the story is in the book. And, and so I got curious, one of the skills in the book, get curious. And so I asked her a meeting with the business partner, the person's manager, and that person's manager, because they'd all been swirling on this, we know what happens by the time somebody is on a pip, you've been talking about those issues for months, probably. And this had been gone for months, and the manager and their boss were like, We're done to get this, get this person out of the organization. And it was such a mismatch to what I believed about that person. So I called them and left a message and asked them they'd been ghosting the organization just not showing up. And, and ask them to come in. And when they came in that following morning, and I'm like, I'm just worried about you, you know, telling what's going on, they were having a severe mental crisis, they were, they were really at risk to themselves. And each day brought its own threats and, and demons to them. And that was why they weren't showing up at work. And they were too embarrassed, and they didn't know what to say. And so we talked about what they needed, and what the organization needed. And the first thing was a courageous conversation with their manager about what was going on. So we could find a mutual solution. And we did, when that supported that person on his on their road back to well being, and when that also met the needs of the business so that their needs to deliver what was required was met, there was some hard boundaries around that and some hard talks and some tears, but the efficient, the efficient step would have been to put that person on a pip, and they would have failed, and then the next, you know, they would have moved on. And the outcome for them would have been precarious. And the organization would have moved forward, that would have been treating him as a resource and not a human and caring about what was happening for him and the need of the business and finding the right outcome for both. It was a different path to take. It's such

Kyle Roed: 12:25

a powerful story. And I think it exemplifies a couple of things. And I just, you know, I'm just because you're describing the story, of course, my brain works and, you know, HR, fashion, so it's like, okay, from a compliance standpoint, had you not taken the human approach, you would have not only put, you know, that individual's, you know, potential, you know, life or mental health at risk, but also would have put the business at risk, because I guarantee you that the those leaders had some inkling that something was going on, and some comment was probably made somewhere that could then turn into a lawsuit. Right. And oh, by the way, the other thing I'm thinking through is, you mentioned efficiency, like, yes, had we treated that person like a resource, it would have been very efficient. And we would have followed this due process. And we could have documented all that blah, blah, blah. But it would have really sucked to have to try to hire another person. So it could have been efficient, but it wouldn't have been very effective. And you know, how inefficient a new hire is when you're trying to train him on a brand new job, and you just hope you got the right skill set. And then it takes six months to figure out that maybe that wasn't the right person, and that they were just a really good interviewer. And, you know, I could keep going on and give you 75 different examples of when we screwed up a hiring decision. And we should have just kept the person.

Kate Roeske-Zummer: 13:49

And there's the place that I think is so fascinating about this particular story is that it requires you as an HR person to think bigger, to think more deeply about what is it that you're trying to create, in this organization with the people that you have in an organization. So one of the practices that we write about is claiming value. But in order for you to claim that value, you have to know what is important to you and what it is you want to create. And that's the work that I think So oftentimes, I have so much compassion for people in HR, because I feel like there's so much going on, and you're just trying to solve the problem. And then you're on to another problem that happens. And one of the things is to pause. And to sort of say hang on a minute, what am I trying to create here with the people that work in this organization? Is it a place where people can be more human and we want more humanity? Is there something else that's going on?

Debbie Cohen: 14:56

And part of that I love Kate is this belief in why you're there and where you are adding value? Right? Oftentimes, I support organizations as their hiring their top of the house. And I'll run interviews with top of the house. And one of the questions. So if you're ever on the other side of the table heads up, when the questions I always ask is, the senior team is down the hall, top of the house down the hall? And why do you deserve to be in the room? And nine times out of 99.9 times, I get some answer, like, it's because I have to execute on what they decide to which I reply, so does everybody else sitting on this side of the door? So why do you deserve to be at the table? I will call it because we fought to be there for so many years. And, and the answer to that founder of a company after he wants to be what's really the answer I should be listening for is because you more than any other person at that table understands people, in the same way, the CMO understands marketing, and the CTO understands technology, you more than anyone else hold a bigger picture and remit about the largest investment this company makes, and that is in their people. And the potential and the possibility of those people in your voice is at that table, to connect every piece of business strategy to the people that are dependent on to execute that strategy. That's your voice at the table. instigator,

Kyle Roed: 16:42

I love it. And I think about the whole, you know, there's the whole seat at the table, you know, push and I think, maybe a little bit more of a buzzword at some point. But But I do think it goes back to it really is it's about the value you bring. Right? Like at the end of the day, it's not about it's not about elbowing your way in and you know, forging a, you know, path to get there, it's about driving enough value that people are asking you to be there, right? And that they want your voice in that room because you are the voice of the people and you are the you know, maybe a contrarian opinion to a business decision that we haven't considered, you know, the ripple effect of of this or that.

Debbie Cohen: 17:29

And the flip index sort of downstream of that to Kyle is people would often ask like, how do you know you're adding value? And my answer to that is repeat customers. Right? This is a service do you are an internal service agent to the organization. So when you have people seeking you out not to tell them how long their maternity or parental leave is. But because you're adding value to them being better humans with the humans they're trying to work with, then you're adding value to your organization.

Kyle Roed: 18:04

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Kate Roeske-Zummer: 19:15

We start off the book by writing about productivity is about people. We love to sort of bottom line and make productivity about processes and and the truth of the matter is and we're seeing this right now. I mean I think that's one of the things behind the great resignation. Right? We are starting to really feel the the the pressure of needing to be with the people that we have that we are dependent upon getting the work done that we need to get done. So that's part of the conversation that needs to shift. Because we need our people to be feel happy and valued and respected all of those things right now. And I think that's one of those things that is starting to shift. And we need some more skills in terms of being able to help people to do that. Yeah,

Debbie Cohen: 20:05

it's not like a house plant, you just walk by and water every now and then and talk to it and you know, hope that it lives, you have to have to nurture the people and the relationships in your organization, if you want them to stay in relationship with you.

Kyle Roed: 20:21

I don't know, houseplants are pretty hard for me. So my wife and I, we can't keep the house plant alive. Several, we're doing our best we have a lot of learning to do. You know, I think it's such a it's such a powerful, powerful point. And I think it's, it's so interesting. And I think, you know, as we we hear these headlines about the great resignation, and we learn about mental health in the workplace. And, you know, diversity, equity and inclusion, and some of the some of the challenges that workplaces are facing that they didn't feel like they had to deal with, you know, obviously, there's the differences that people have related to how they feel about the pandemic, and vaccines and masks and all these things. But at the heart of all of these challenges in the workplace, it really is, its people, right? I mean, you know, when no one's sitting in the office, or on their computer, there's no HR issues. There's, because nobody's, nobody's in the building, I used to have a great HR mentor, and I was really struggling with a problem. At one point, he kind of pulled me aside and he said, listen, okay, this is really simple, like, this is in a retail setting, it's like, we don't have any customer issues, until we open those doors. And then customers are in the store, we won't have any employee issues, until we open the doors and let the employees come in. But you're gonna always have those issues. So just relax, and work through it. But it does take time and listening. And it's not as simple as, as, you know, creating a widget or Systemising, every little thing because people are messy, and they, they bring everything with them, right, whether you want them to or not, it's still there. So I think one of the challenges that I want to dig into a little bit, and I know you touch on in the book is how being human also feels very vulnerable, especially to someone who's maybe been in the career for a while, or somebody who is new in the career and doesn't really have the clout to start throwing away around their weight or driving and instigating as much change so. So how do we deal with that vulnerability? And how does that actually set us up for success?

Kate Roeske-Zummer: 22:54

So we write about this pretty extensively. And what is Debbie knows is one of my all time favorite chapters of this book, which is called daring not to know, it also feels a little bit like it's related to creating safety, which is one of the first practices we write about. And there is a, what we really believe, is that you could actually take a stand. And in even if it's in your small little part of the world, you might not be at the sea level or the VP level. But if you see somebody not treating somebody else in your realm, well, you could actually speak up to create safety. And that's vulnerable work. And I think part of it is you sort of deciding, I'm actually not comfortable with this. Right? So what does that look like to actually be vulnerable enough to take a stand for something, it's why you still start to see there's a crossover between all of these we're sort of in creating safety, we're in claiming value and daring not to know you may not know how this conversation is going to go. But that doesn't mean you shouldn't try to have that conversation with somebody.

Debbie Cohen: 24:16

The skill that we offer inside daring not to know is curiosity. Right? It can be very vulnerable for some leaders to say they don't know. But using powerful questions, and other skills in the book, using powerful questions rooted in curiosity, lets you open the door for other people to engage with you. Right so you don't have to say boy, I don't know the answer to that really hard problem. But you can say I'm curious what Kyle you think about this, which invites your participation in and I can learn more, while I'm listening and helping you feel valued and contributing To this,

Kate Roeske-Zummer: 25:01

you suddenly feel more respected and more valued. Because the person that does have potential positional power, has just asked you genuinely, what do you think that's going to increase engagement, that's going to increase a sense of trust and that you matter, increase inclusion, these are the soft skills that we are passionate about. And they're not complicated.

Debbie Cohen: 25:32

One of the things that we talk about when it comes to curiosity, and some of the other challenges you mentioned, HR folks are, are grappling with right now, is that curiosity is the antidote to judgment. Curiosity is the antidote to judgment, right? So instead of standing in my perspective, and telling you here is the truth, which is actually only my perception of the truth, I can actually put that down and get curious about what how other people are seeing this issue? What's important to them about that? What ideas do they have? All of those are curiosity questions that don't have to say, you know, folks, I am helpless here and don't know the answer. So I'm just going to bear my chest and bare my soul. And like, you all just eat me alive, that I don't know, I'm actually going to invite you to helping co create and solve your ideas matter, and I care about really care, because I don't really know the answer to this. I'm just one human walking this planet. You know, we talk a lot about how the rank and file in an organization often think that the folks at the top of the house know all the answers in our experiences, that it's so not the truth. That is so not

Kyle Roed: 26:48

laughing? Yes. Yeah. Right. Common,

Debbie Cohen: 26:51

you know, so not the truth. And so, as leaders and as others in the organization, what's it like to be curious? What's it like to ask a question,

Kate Roeske-Zummer: 27:05

and, and actually be willing to sort of admit that you don't know everything. And that actually is a process of vulnerability, and surrender. But what it also really does is invites other people into helping you solve that problem.

Debbie Cohen: 27:23

Back to productivity is all about people, when Kate and I were playing with this concept and writing input, one of the things that we sort of laughed about is, you know, people think, no, they're hired to solve problems. And so we just keep faking it, and how much time is wasted in an organization with people faking, that they're making it up, or that they're over there trying to solve the problem without ever asking for help? Because it doesn't feel safe, or they don't know how to do it without losing face? And, and curiosity is a great way to do that.

Kyle Roed: 28:03

Yeah, you know, I'm glad that we can admit that, that, that they, you know, as you as you refer to, you know, they need to do this as in like, the leadership team, or, or, you know, or they know, you know, every ripple effect, you know, or they, you know, they did this on purpose, because they knew that this would happen if if they, you know, change this, this plan around, you know, it's their fault, like, and I love nothing more than than bursting people's bubble. And, you know, I'm sorry, but you know, it's not some great conspiracy theory. Sometimes we're just flying by the seat of our pants, and really hoping this is like the least worst decision that we can make in this situation, right? Like, a lot of times, like, I don't, I don't frickin know what the right answer here is. But I know if I don't do anything, it's gonna be worse than making a sort of right, Lee directional decision, but maybe not perfect. Right? And that's the challenge, right? Yeah.

Kate Roeske-Zummer: 29:04

Debbie Knight, Debbie and I talk about this a lot. We talk about it at the C suite level on down is stop thinking that they they the inverted commas, they have the answer. Because that that actually just feeds this whole idea of the imposter syndrome, for those of you that have ever read about that, right? That is that, Oh, well. They are more powerful, they know more. And so part of that work getting back to who we wrote this book for is for you. We want you to step up and actually start to offer up your ideas to the people around you. Because that's what they need. They don't need you to compete capitulate. They need you to push against them offer a different perspective.

Debbie Cohen: 29:54

Well, and I also love Kyle, where you were going which is like and sometimes I'm just making this up Imagine if our people knew that right? I'm doing the best I can today with the information that I have. And then we're going to learn from that. One of the gifts I learned when I started working in tech was from engineers who taught me about iteration, right? Incremental. Like I think one of the one of the Nemesis present in HR communities is we want to show we want to deliver the full package with a boast tide, and the angels singing and the fireworks going off that we're delivering this great thing. But oftentimes, we've done it over there in a bubble absent from other people. But one of the gifts that I learned in the engineering world is you hack on great ideas, you start and you put it out there, you hold it kind of lightly, and you get some feedback. And then you iterate from there, and you iterate from there, and you iterate from there. And boy, that has served me well working in engineering dominant organizations to engage them to be like, Look, here's where we're headed. Here's why I believe this is important. Here's what you can count on me for here's what I need from you. kick the tires on this, where will this work? Where haven't I not thought of something, let's make this work for the organization in a way that has value and engage them in helping you create something for them, that has value their uptake on that will be a heck of a lot faster than when you try to drop something into the organization. Because you think it's the right thing for

Kyle Roed: 31:39

them. Well, Debbie are speaking to the heart of me right now. And I, you know, I do love a really well crafted, like, you know, HR appropriate like, pamphlet and everything's like iron down. It's great. This is the this is like puppy dogs and rainbows and everything's gonna love it, then then you roll it out. And somebody's like, this isn't gonna work. Yeah, this is, you know, in your life. But, you know, and I just love that approach. And I do think that it's, it's such an important thing to remember. It's something that we can control in HR is it's that it's kind of the, I call it rampant incrementalism, right, it's like, just get a little bit better. Take that idea, keep moving. And I also work in an organization that has a lot of engineers. So yeah, this goes back to, you know, listen, and be curious and learn how they do it. Because guess what, they build stuff and design stuff all day long? Well, that's what we do in HR, it's just a little different. The systems are different, it's people. And the same idea,

Debbie Cohen: 32:38

same idea. And the outcome that Kate was referring to in Derry not to know is engagement, and boy back to how do you know, if you're adding value those return customers, when they come back to you and say, Wow, Kyle, that thing you rolled out, was amazing. Come help us do it again, over here. You know,

Kyle Roed: 32:56

100%. And I think, you know, one of the challenges we talked about this before I hit record, it's kind of it's that that burnout, right? The risk of burnout, especially in HR people, people heavy, any people heavy job right now. Everybody's got a risk of burnout. So like, everybody take a deep breath, it'll be fine. recenter yourself, as we said, you know, pause. But then I think that, you know, I think the thing that is really, maybe can help you get through it and remind you you're doing something right is if you if you do have those repeat customers, and people are coming to you for your ideas, and your perspectives. And they're seeking your guidance and support. You are doing something right. That's right. You should feel good about that. And I know some of us have the tendency, myself included to think oh, what now? But I'm always pleasantly surprised when someone says hey, just helped me with this get what's your thoughts? And I'm like, Oh, you mean I don't have to do anything. I just have to like, give you my perspective. I'm winning. Alright, so just just remember that I guarantee you that that number our listeners right now are probably struggling with something going on. As long as you got people asking for your your your advice, your support your ideas, you are on the right track.

Debbie Cohen: 34:12

I love that where you're pointing, you know, in our in our coaching practice, one of the sort of tenants is that people are naturally creative, resourceful than hope. We don't need to fix them. Right. And I think oftentimes, HR practitioners get into it because you want to be helpful. We want to fix we want to fix what's broken back to, you know, instigator and HR. But our two cents there is you help them help themselves. That's where you're adding value. And so taking that breath and pause to say, what's needed here right now. And how do I help that person take their step forward? Not me fix it, how do I help them take the step forward? I think is another way of Adding values to your customers, you're growing their potential and capacity and capability as you stand in help them in that messy moment.

Kyle Roed: 35:10

Absolutely. God, this is such a great conversation. I wish I had another two hours because we could just keep going and going and going. But I do want to be respectful of your time. And we're coming to the end of our time together. So I want to make sure I'm fascinated about what these responses are going to be that we get through the rebel HR flash round. So I will go, I will start with Debbie. And then I will go to Kate with each question. So are you ready?

Kate Roeske-Zummer: 35:36

I'm ready. All right, perfect.

Kyle Roed: 35:38

All right, Debbie, what is your favorite people book?

Debbie Cohen: 35:42

So I have a bunch on my bookshelf. But for today, I'm going to say one of my favorite people books is Simon senex. Why? And I think for the HR population, really grounding yourselves in the why you do. And then his next ring is how you are being while you were living that why? And then what? Don't start with what start with your wife.

Kyle Roed: 36:07

Love that. All right, Kate, what is your favorite people book,

Kate Roeske-Zummer: 36:12

I'm one of my favorite people books is Brene browns, dare to lead, which I know is a New York is a New York Times bestseller. But I just think that that is really encapsulates what makes leading so challenging is that it's a daring place to be. And if you we are we are vulnerable junkies. And if you can dare to lead from a place of not knowing inviting other people into sharing what they know, I think we're going to change what leadership looks like. And that's super near and dear to my heart.

Kyle Roed: 36:52

That is, yeah, that I have not had a chance to read that book yet. But my only comment there is my wife is reading that book right now. And all I can say is she's definitely leading me somewhere, I don't know where to get something from it and where the house is much more productive. So alright, second question, Debbie, who should we be listening to.

Debbie Cohen: 37:15

So I'm going to be vague on this one and say you should be listening to people that meet you where you are. So for example, if you need to be stretched, then listen to people outside of your normal or if you need to be filled, listen to somebody that will fill your soul. Right now I'm listening to the love songs of EB DuBois. And because it's taking me on a journey and into a world I need to understand and appreciate and learn more of and so it's a stretch place for me.

Kyle Roed: 37:55

Love that. Okay.

Kate Roeske-Zummer: 37:58

I think you probably need to be listening to the people who you've hired. You know, and there's a part of me that says oftentimes, we hire these people at all different levels. And and then we just tell them what we think they should be doing. And I know it sounds super rudimentary. But I think that's one of the things that's going on right now in the great resignation is that we are not like putting into these relationships, what we want to get out of these relationships, that we are sort of making all sorts of assumptions about what these people can do, what their bandwidth is, what their area of expertise is, and we tend to shove people in those boxes. And I'm like, what if you actually expanded that, and started to ask all of your people some of those questions, and you got a kind of more input than you really might not normally get.

Kyle Roed: 39:02

Right? To bring it full circle. That is a resource for listening to

Kate Roeske-Zummer: 39:09

your humans. Yeah,

Kyle Roed: 39:11

there you go. There you go. We made that connection. I'm just happy about that. Alright, last question. And I'll just open this up to anybody. How can our listeners connect with you?

Kate Roeske-Zummer: 39:21

Yeah, they can find us on our website, which is www humanity. works.com. And you can find out about our book that is coming out on October 26. You can have access to podcasts and articles and newsletters and as well as when we'll send these to you our, you know, social media links.

Debbie Cohen: 39:45

Yeah, Kate and I are both on Twitter, LinkedIn. And we are big fans of the HR community and the important role they play in fostering and bringing humanity to work. So we're calling Lend on whatever you need for less.

Kyle Roed: 40:02

Love it and we'll have all that information in the show notes as well. When the show goes live, check out the book humanity works better. I can't wait to grab a copy here. And you know, just really appreciate the time some pragmatic advice, some great advice in a time that has definitely stretched HR professionals. So really appreciate your time. And thanks. I look forward to learning more from you.

Kate Roeske-Zummer: 40:25

Our pleasure. Thanks for having us.

Kyle Roed: 40:27

Thank you. Alright, that does it for the rebel HR podcast. Big thank you to our guests. Follow us on Facebook at rebel HR podcast, Twitter at rebel HR guy, or see our website at rebel a human resources.com. The views and opinions expressed by rebel HR podcast are those the authors and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of any of the organizations that we represent. No animals were harmed during the filming of this podcast. Maybe