Episode 82: How to Generate Loyalty with Elena Armijo

Elena Armino: 0:00

If you're thinking about developing a culture you really want to stay in, and how do we keep talent? And how do we make them happy? How do we get people to actually sign on and work? And you know, and it kind of frustrates me because some people are like, it shouldn't be that hard to get people a job and have them want to work and show up. And I'm like, Well, maybe that's not the actual conversation. If we take a step back and look at the why, what are people actually enrolled in? What do they want to create for their future? And what's the big word for because that's the thing that generates culture and loyalty.

Kyle Roed: 0:28

This is the rebel HR Podcast, the podcast where we talk to HR innovators about all things people leadership. If you're looking for places to find about new ways to think about the world of war, this is the podcast for you. Please subscribe, favorite podcast listening platform today. And leave us a review revelon HR rebels rebel HR listeners, welcome to the show this week. I'm super excited for our guests we have Elena are Miho. She is the founder of the C suite collective, a one stop shop that supports women in the workforce by providing resources to succeed from the in sight out she is also a podcast host. So we got a little pressure on us today. She hosts the podcast in a manner of speaking with Elena Armijo and she is here today to talk about a number of issues, including how employers can attract and retain top tier female talent by creating a workplace culture that supports and addresses women's needs and all of our needs. With us today. We got Patrick Moran, brother from another mother able to join us today. So excited to have him here. And Elena, welcome to show.

Elena Armino: 1:41

Hey, thanks for having me, gentlemen. It's a pleasure to be with you.

Kyle Roed: 1:44

We're super excited to have

Patrick Moran: 1:46

you always happy to be back with you.

Kyle Roed: 1:49

Yeah, Patrick, what's up with that? It's like you've been skipping out on these What? Are you busy or something?

Patrick Moran: 1:54

You're always having these meetings when? When something at POS drops. So I have to stop what I'm doing. But it's fine. It's all good. All good.

Kyle Roed: 2:04

Well, what? Welcome back, Patrick, we're glad to have you Elena really excited for the conversation today. Before we hit record, we were having just a great conversation. And as as we often do with our guests, I'm like, geez, I wish I would hit record on that conversation. So. So now that we've hit record, I'm really excited to continue the conversation and and why don't we start off by just giving our listeners a little bit of insight into why you founded the C suite collective?

Elena Armino: 2:32

Oh, yeah, I love talking about this. Um, we were just talking about how right now that you know, in the middle of COVID, with everything that's happening and employers having conversations about, you know, how do we keep people happy? How do we retain talent? How do we find talent, and especially larger corporations that are really under pressure to change something now? They're sort of lost? You know, it's kind of like, where do we go now? And what do we do? And over the past eight to nine years, in my career, when I've been working with people, I've noticed that working with a coach is productive, obviously, I believe that. But it's sometimes isn't enough. And so oftentimes, my clients will look to source different things for themselves, like, do you know a great therapist? Or do you know, a nutritionist? Or do you know, somebody who, you know, I have a sleep consultant, now that that is on on the platform. So I started to notice that people needed more support than they were actually willing to give themselves. So this is why the C suite was born. Basically, in one platform, you're going to get all of this beautiful, holistic support that you could ever imagine once. So you've got coaches, you've got practitioners in the healing modalities, you've got trainings around diversity, equity, inclusion, and belonging. And it's all in one spot with really vetted people that I love, and I trust and that we all have the same common mission, which is to change how culture is going in corporations everywhere. So that's why I created the C suite. And we actually launched November 1, even before launching, we've, we've got our first mini contract. So I have I have high hopes for 2022. And the work that we can do with people in service.

Kyle Roed: 4:18

No, I love that. And I you know, I think one of the things that that just makes so much sense to me is the fact that it's it's, it's treating a person, like an entire human being right, as opposed to how employees are often treated in organizations, which is, you know, just a resource to consume. Right. And, and so, you know, walk me through a little bit about, you know, how you how you get connected to organizations and how you take a look at organizations that are maybe struggling with this component, and figure out where to start.

Elena Armino: 4:55

Yeah, well, it's funny my you know, my business is Super organic. And I like it that way. So I like to say that my the company is built on relationship capital, that's pretty much all we have. So what does that mean? We are word of mouth, we get referrals in the door. So people who come in and work with us speak well about the work and the work working. So that's kind of where it all starts. And, and I like it that way. Because I think that what we're talking about this whole person, just like you mentioned, starts with relationship and connection. So I intentionally built a business with that structure in mind, instead of a ton of like marketing or scaling or having some of those goals be present. First, I really went for like, hey, let's actually go talk to people and be with people and listen to what the gap is. So that's where we start, we get a referral. And then we go to this company, we say, All right, let's sit down, let's talk about what's really going on. And I really invite them to an honest conversation about the gaps. And that can be uncomfortable. You know, I get in a room and we're for a couple hours talking to, you know, the C suites, or the leadership team or the management team. And, you know, it takes a little bit for them to actually open up and feel like it's a trusted space where they can say the things that they want to say about what's not working. So that's where we start. And then I'll talk to some of their teams. And they'll say, All right, this is what they think isn't working. What do you think isn't working. So it's kind of like a 360 process, but it's not so formal. It's very organic and connected. And then from there, we create plans, we say, Alright, here's the gap. This is what we think you could do to address it. And I really say to them give us one full year, because this is another thing I think companies are missing the boat on, is that they they bring in a chief diversity officer, and they say here, fix our problems. And the chief diversity officer is like, wow, it's me. Exactly. And they're like, I've had a lot of training. And there's a lot going on here, right? So immediately, they're overwhelmed and burned out. Or they'll bring in another company that does D IB training. And they'll call it a good checkmark. Right? Like, we brought this in. So everybody should be happy now, right? So my response to that is change takes time. And even though we all want it to be immediate, especially, you know, CEOs of companies that need things to work right now, tough, courageous conversations take time. So you have to be willing to invest the time, which means like, come with us work with us for a year. That's where we start our contracts, that is a year, give us 20 of your people. Let's get them all coaches, let's get them all different modalities that they pick from. And when I say modalities, I mean, like some people that I work with have never heard of a Reiki therapist. They're like what is Reiki? You know, so this is also about access. Some people haven't had the ability to explore ever working with asleep consultants, like what is that? Right? So and then we set them up, and we see how it goes. But that's sort of how the process has been working now. But you know, asked me in six months, if it's still working.

Kyle Roed: 8:05

I think organic is like my, that's like my operating system right now. We're definitely alignment, especially I don't know how many HR people on here agree, I think there's probably some of us that are very systematic and very, very, you know, systems driven. But for me, it's like when you're dealing with like relationships and people and hard stuff and big problems. You can't you can't come in and force something, you do have to kind of let it grow. And a lot of times that grows from relationship, but I gotta ask. So yeah, as you're having these, these initial sessions, how often does it turn into a therapy session with the C suite leaders?

Elena Armino: 8:47

Well, not as often as you think, actually, because because one of the things we do as coaches, you know, the coaching industry is blown up, obviously, over the last, I don't know, 10 years, it's a huge industry. I personally think we're in a bubble. So I'm always like, when's that bubble gonna pop? It's coming, I'm sure at some point. But I also believe that, you know, really well trained coaches understand the differences of that line. So we can navigate it really easily. Meaning like we can say, Here, here's what a therapy conversation looks like. And here's what a coaching conversation looks like. And so when they dip into that a little bit, we might say things like, we'll spend a little bit of time in the past, but we're going to bring you right back to today. So we can have a present day conversation. And that might be something that you think about hiring a therapist for. Right, like, I'll be really honest about where that line is in the conversation. Sometimes I'll just straight up ask when I go into a room, I'll say, who is working with a coach, and who is working with a therapist, you know, and so just opening up the lines of communication right away, I think allows people to start sharing some of that but yeah, it's tricky. It's definitely there are definitely some moments where I'm like, oh, this person and especially for the people that have never done that, right. They never been in therapy or they've never hired a coach or had the ability to. That's a, we're starting from square one.

Patrick Moran: 10:06

So when you're doing an evaluation of an organization, do they already recognize that they have a gap somewhere? Do they recognize where the gap is? And is there like a big aha moment as you're doing your evaluation to the C suite?

Elena Armino: 10:21

I think it's 5050. Like some know exactly what the problem is. And some know there's a problem, but they really need help sourcing it. Right. So I would say it's a mixed bag. Right now, you know, as we're coming to the end of the year, and getting ready to approach 2022, and everything with the vaccines and COVID. And travel is still all lingering in our space. I would say more people are aware of what the problems are than not. You know, they're pretty clear on what's going on.

Patrick Moran: 10:51

Are you seeing a, a push or, you know, people starting to admit and recognize that we have a serious issue revolving around mental health right now, in the workplace?

Elena Armino: 11:04

100%, especially in the United States? I would say, globally, the conversation isn't as far ahead as the United States is, which is kind of cool for you know, that the US is actually opening up to that. But everybody, you know, and look, I think the people that are driving this conversation are the millennials coming in, right? We're finally getting millennials that are in C suites. Right, and they are the next legacy of leadership and, and money and how we're driving business in our culture. And they're not playing around. Like, you know, they really are like, hey, the whole person is important. And, you know, I appreciate that. I think that's incredible. And I think that we, I always say that COVID has exposed our biggest weaknesses. And that one is nobody was taking care of themselves to the level that that we could be to produce a healthier society.

Patrick Moran: 11:56

I agree. There's so many conversations I've been having recently, just here within our networks, I'm sure Kyle, you've had the same around mental health and people, you know, the concept of showing empathy, and talking to your people, and really trying to get down to what's going on with them and caring about them as a person versus just do XY and Z so we can get sales volume out the door and building out the door has just been so different. And it's so surprising with so many managers, because they're just like, empathy. What's that? What's that? Tell me about that? Yeah, it's, it's odd, but it's there.

Elena Armino: 12:31

Yeah, yeah. It's amazing to me how many people don't know what that word really means? Like, are the definitions between empathy or courage or vulnerability, like you say, vulnerability in the room right now, you know, of the baby boomer generation, shall we say? And they're like, I know, what are we talking about? Right. But yeah, I think that's where we start. And I, you know, if you're thinking about developing a culture you really want to stay in and people are looking for, you know, I hear this all the time, you probably hear this in your spaces all the time about how do we keep talent? And how do we make them happy? How do we get people to actually sign on and work? And that's the, you know, and it kind of frustrates me because some people are like, you know, especially some of my friends that have been in industries longer say, you know, it shouldn't be that hard to get people a job, and have them want to work and show up. And I'm like, Well, maybe that's not the actual conversation. If we take a step back and look at the why, what are people actually enrolled in? What do they what do they want to create for their future? And what's the big word for? Because that's the thing that generates culture and loyalty? Not, you know, amazing perks, that is a one size fit all.

Kyle Roed: 13:44

Yeah, absolutely. I think that's a really, really interesting conversation. And, for me, it gives me a lot of, I don't know, the optimism about the future that, you know, wow, we are struggling right now, many organizations, you know, certainly mine included are, are struggling to make sure that we can meet the needs of our employees and, and build a culture that, you know, is sticky, and people want to stay with and I think every employer is trying to figure out the, you know, what's the secret sauce here, but I think that inevitably, this is going to drive some positive change and that the the employers that don't adapt and and change and and support their employees will eventually not have the best talent and eventually, you know, won't be around much longer. So I think it's also it's also a requirement for the survival and viability of many, many institutions. So and I think most of our listeners, if you listen to this podcast, you probably agree with that statement. Otherwise, if you don't agree with that statement, send me an email because I want to talk to you why do you listen to podcasts, but that's fine.

Elena Armino: 14:53

Exactly. Why you think change is not good.

Kyle Roed: 14:55

Yeah. But you know, we love you know, we love we love the diversity divergence. So let me know. Yeah, but I want to, I want to talk maybe a little bit more about, you know, building that culture and really talk a little bit about building an inclusive culture. And I think, you know, you mentioned, you know, millennials, if you look at some of the statistics around, you know, that generation that inclusion is one of the most important things is to them, period. And then you look at the statistics around Gen Z, it's even more important to them. And so as we look at our roles, and you know, much of much of our roles are building culture and supporting culture, what steps can we take to foster those inclusive environments?

Elena Armino: 15:42

This is such a great question. I have so much to say about it. And I think the place that I would start is, you know, when you're, when you're speaking to people that you want to bring on, you know, even from a hiring perspective, but also from people who are already part of your organization, the first thing I would sit down and have a conversation about is What does support actually look like? Because here's, you know, in the past, we have sort of been guessing at what support is, and what people actually need. You know, this is a common thing that I think most organizations do is they say, Well, we think that this will cover the majority of people if we do, you know, a wellness day or something like that. And not that that's wrong or bad, but it misses the mark with having your people heard. So from the very beginning, sit down and say, What does support actually look like, it's gonna be different for everybody. Some people might want a therapist, some people might want more vacation days, some people will really want to work with a coach on staff, right? So it's having a variety of ways to support your people, but also having the conversation with your people and listening about what they need individually. And I say that and people get really scared they go, that takes way too much time. There's no way we can't make everybody happy. And I promise with just a little bit of intention on this, people feel seen and heard. And that's the place to start. Because if we're not hearing people, then we have no shot. Right. So that's the first place I would start. Second is balance. So this goes back to you know, I think by now everybody knows work life balance is a mess. If you didn't welcome to the party. Well here, you know, but I mean, I remember a time when work life balance was like a thing people were striving for. And again, I think that's just a symptom of an unhealthy culture. So now, what about having a conversation about what balance looks like for each person, some people are going to want to work hybrid approach, right? Some people want to be in the office, some people don't ever want to come into the office again. And while this gets dicey, you know, from a legal standpoint, for companies, what can you co create together in partnership, that is their new version of balance, this, this also addresses some things like burnout, you know, some people are working more than they've ever worked. Now that we're in a virtual world. So does balance look like actually putting some boundaries on when there'll be online? I don't know. But you can co create this together. And there's lots of ways to flesh out the conversation, as opposed to just assuming again. And then the last thing I'd say is, you know, Patrick, you hit on this was compassion and empathy, and kindness. It's my version of empathy. And kindness looks like meeting people where they're at. So really hearing, you know, like, what's going on for this person, maybe they just had a baby, you know, and they're just coming back from maternity leave. And they've been off for three months. And now they're trying to enter this new workplace culture, and they have no idea what's going on, you know, they might need a little bit of slowness, and you know, a softer approach. Now, we're having people that are being hired with new companies that have never met people in person. And that's weird and different, right? So creating space to talk about it, instead of just assuming that everybody's doing okay, with the weird stuff that we didn't have before. And that, to me, is meeting people where they're at in the conversation. So those are some places that I would start. And again, I think the other thing I've had to remember, as a founder, myself is, when we're talking about retention and recruiting. I noticed that when I first started my mindset went to, but what about retention and recruiting, which I think is like an automatic reaction for every C suite or founder. And I had to really work with my coach, to get to distinguish that I'm always going to be in a conversation of retention and recruiting. And when I when I was able to phrase it that way, all of a sudden, all the pressure went away, and it was like, oh, okay, this is just this is actually part of the job is to be in relationship with people. People are going to come and go, they're going to leave, they're going to stay, they're going to be happy. They're going to be unhappy. And so if we know that that's like just a normal thing, the normalization of that rule He takes a lot of that pressure off. I think for myself, at least, I love

Kyle Roed: 20:03

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Patrick Moran: 22:35

don't go there. Don't go there. Now we all know naturally.

Kyle Roed: 22:40

Ask, ask seek to understand.

Elena Armino: 22:43

You want me to fix this for you right now? Or listen?

Patrick Moran: 22:48

I know my to read. It's like, I can't read your mind. Do you want me to help? Or no?

Kyle Roed: 22:53

Yeah, I've been there. Number two was balanced, what is balanced look like for the person. And I think you made the perfectly made point, work life balance is a myth. It doesn't exist. And it's different for everybody. For me, when I shut work off, I get more anxious, because I could be having a huge fire start. And then when I walk in, in the morning, now I've got a full blown emergency that I could have potentially headed off the past last night, if I would have checked it before my kids went to bed. That's just how I operate. I'm fine with that. You know, but it took a couple of decades work, figure out how to do it right. And then the third point was just compassion, empathy and kindness. And so I think, think about those things. Just perfectly, perfectly set. And I think some some great places to start as you're thinking about your culture.

Patrick Moran: 23:45

You know, one thing I noticed recently, it was, it was really, you know, we're always dealing with retention and recruiting. And I love how you put it that way. Because yes, we're always dealing with it. Even if we're having like a slog of hiring or a period of turnover, that shouldn't just be our focus at that time, it should always be our focus, because you never know. And I've seen this firsthand, you'll never know when one of your best employees will just say I can't do it anymore, and leave. And then the whole building goes through the seven stages of the grieving process. Like it was a bad breakup or a death like so dramatic. And it's like, one what could we have done differently? What did we two, what did we miss? In three? How do we pick up everybody around here right now, and keep moving the train forward and keep the spirit alive and positive. Those are the hardest things to all balance at once. And it's us as HR practitioners and leaders to try to try to champion that and hold everybody together without breaking our mental capacity.

Elena Armino: 24:42

Mm hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, I love how you break that down. Because what it makes me think is, you know, and even when I was imagining, you know, your star player that just says, I can't do this anymore, and I gotta go, you know, as a coach for my brain, I think. Why did we expect them to stay forever? Anyway? Right. So again, it's changing that that mindset where you can be in a conversation where you're always in relationship with people, knowing that people are people, like things are gonna change, life stages happen. Things come up health wise, like there's all kinds of stuff as humans, right. So, again, I think getting away from the expectations, especially when it's working, right, because that's when we get really, really comfy. When things are going well, and we're like, oh, we don't have a retention problem. Everybody here is great. And everybody's happy. And we don't you know, we haven't had to hire anybody. I know. That's an old conversation now. Definitely not the one we've been in this past year. But even then, I would question, you know, I would question that that leader, and I would say, Hey, are you actually still in the conversation of an organic growth, though, with people, even in good times? So I love what you're pointing to? Patrick, that's awesome.

Kyle Roed: 25:58

Absolutely, I think it's, you know, it's it's really interesting. And you brought up kind of the generational differences. I don't know, if it's specifically generational, I think there's just kind of differences within certain individuals mindsets, but some people view, you know, staying in a company for a long time, they've used stability as a strength. All right. But more often than not, when I talk to individuals and candidates, they view staying in a job that's uncomfortable as a weakness, and leaving a company for a company that is a better fit for you as a strength. And that's it. If you don't understand that mindset, in many employees minds, as a leader as a, as an HR practitioner, whatever, you're missing out on an entire movement of people who actually have a choice. Right? We're not, we're not in a job scarcity. Right now. And, and, and candidates are not operating in a scarcity mindset. They're they're waiting for the the best, the best thing to come their way. Right. So yeah, it's, it's it's something that as employers, we need to figure that out. And think about that, and, and not just an inauthentic, you know, benefit program that doesn't address the actual root issue, right. Yeah, so I want to I want to talk sorry, go ahead.

Elena Armino: 27:16

No, I was just gonna say it made me I love that you pointed out that it's a mindset instead of generational, because I guess it could be all of those things. But it also made me think, Alright, and it's also cultural. Right from it from a D IB conversation. It's like, when we assume I'm just thinking, my father, you know, my father was very much of that mindset where you get one job, he was in that job for 40 years. And that was, you know, so so much pride for him. And I wonder if you also think, as HR specialists, remember, some of these mindsets are based in trauma. Right? So when we're talking about a culture and inclusion conversation, and we're looking at our people that are marginalized, or POC, it's also looking under that lens as well, that because somebody believes that, well, where did that come from? Well, maybe they were first generation here. And having a job that was steady and consistent for four years was like, it was leveling up from where they came from, but it was also stability. Not that that's what you should want. But you know, having more space, again, it's that meeting people where they're adding the conversation around like also looking at, oh, where was that born of? And what might support them? In what they want next? Could be a cool place to look as well. Absolutely.

Kyle Roed: 28:34

I think goes right back to the point you made about what does support actually look like? Right, what because it is different for everybody. So that's one of the topics I wanted to talk about a little bit more. And, you know, I think one of the things that COVID has exposed is that there are there are a lot of supports that are necessary for a number of individuals that we've just kind of ignored. And Intel COVID hit, we didn't, we didn't really want to confront the reality. But, you know, we've had a lot of barriers to success and to employment that have been exposed over the last few months. And I think that's also part of the conversation that we need to be thinking about as employers is how do we, how do we come to the table and help eliminate some of those, some of those barriers for individuals so so how can how can we as employers, kind of take that next step and think a little bit more innovatively about how do we support a professional who wants to work who's motivated to work, but maybe has a has an a barrier of some type in the way?

Elena Armino: 29:40

Well, I think creating a space that that can be talked about is first and foremost. You know, like I have a lot of people on the other end, you know, that aren't that are not employers or HR specialists, but they're the actual people interviewing, right like those are some of my clients that are like out there interviewing for jobs, and what we're working on is really owning and creating what you need and you want, but from a wide view of your life, right? So not just like, I'm gonna go in there, and I'm gonna have a conversation about I need another $50,000. Or I'm not taking this job, right, like whatever it is. And I'm like, okay, but let's actually, what does that extra $50,000 mean? Is it because you think that's what you deserve at this title? Raise? Or is it? No, I absolutely am in 911 mode, and I need an another 50 grand, or, you know, like, let's actually break that apart and look at what that is. Because what it represents is the thing that we're trying to create as an experience for your life. Right. And those, as you said, barriers are different. It for each person, you know, for one person, it might be money for another person, it might be location, for another person, it might be they don't have access to technology, right, they don't actually have a great internet connection. So I think that it starts with the person who's looking for a job working to get really clear on what they want, and why they want it. And from an employer standpoint, on the opposite side of the table, being willing to be open to those questions when they come your way. Oftentimes, I see people in a room who, you know, somebody might say, when one of the women I was working with showed up and said, you know, how are you going to support me as a black woman in this organization? What have you done during the last year and a half to either address? What's come up in the world or made improvements upon? And some people, when they get that question are like, Nope, they shut the door, and they're like, not willing to even have that conversation with you, right. And imagine if you were an employer that just had took a minute and said something like, I totally hear here that we did just go through, you know, a massive awakening in the US. And I don't know that we've done what we need to but here's what we've taken on. Like, already authentic open conversation, right. And, and I think that's where even getting people in the door in the interview stage has to start to create, you know, some of those bonds. And as an organization, you know, you got to really be honest about what you're willing to do, on the on the opposite end of that conversation, right for people with disabilities, or who are marginalized or your POC, and if you have a strong commitment to it, get a lot of support, right, which is why again, the C suite was collected, but it's also changing the conversation long term, which means like, Let's take, for instance, you know, people that are people of color, that are trying to get into management roles in an organization that doesn't traditionally have POC at the top, well, that's probably going to take something from everybody to build POCs to that level. Because there's been no access, there's been, you know, there is missing skills, that you're probably going to need to grow and develop in partnership with people. I don't know that some organizations are willing to have a conversation like that, at that level. Right? Like, it's not just about getting diversity in our organization, when they're there. How do we support them and grow them? To be one? Right with everybody? And that's, that's the conversation I would be starting internally, but also with people who come through the door.

Patrick Moran: 33:23

Yeah. I love how you put that it really reminds me of a conversation, many conversations I've been having recently within our organization. And as we recruit, you know, what are their potential barriers? And are we willing to work with them? Are we willing to ask those questions in the interview process to be transparent and be honest. And I said to Kyle, on a, we're on a meeting last week, and I made a comment about, you know, maybe they won't necessarily have all the skills we need. But if we can hire them, and they have potential, they can be coachable, they're motivated. They want to be they can be trained and they want to develop, then let's take a chance on him and see what we can do, let's take a chance on their potential and develop them to be great candidates and great employees. And barriers aren't just, you know, disability or transportation or whatever your race is. It could be, you know, childcare issues, it could be mental health barriers. It could be, you know, 40,000 people leaving the healthcare industry, nursing and being, you know, physical therapists to go on to do other roles, well, they're gonna get screened out, because why would I hire them? They've been in the healthcare industry for 15 years. Well, they're leaving the industry and that could be a potential barrier. kind of far fetched, but it all is part of the same conversation.

Elena Armino: 34:41

What 100% Exactly, and how amazing could that potential employee and that being if they've done the work to get really clear on their life and what it looks like, moving forward, right, and their commitment outside of healthcare now, as a potential example,

Kyle Roed: 34:56

100% You know, I think, you know, I'm thinking about the example you gave Somebody, somebody said, I need$50,000, right? Like it from my, from my seat, if somebody were coming to me and say I need$50,000 with no context, and they're just like countering, I'd be like, Okay, see you later, you know, I mean, like, but if they were to come to me and say, I love this company, I really want to take this job and great conversation. But my daycare costs me $50,000 a year. And this is how much money I'm giving up. If I take this job at this level, can we meet in the middle? Or is there something that we can, you know, or is there a flexible schedule alternative, where, you know, like, as an employer, you have to be thinking in those terms, as opposed to just, you know, assuming that somebody is just trying to squeeze for a little bit more money up front? Yeah, I that context is really critical. And but being able to, as you say, have that have that safe space to have that open conversation, that open dialogue is really critical. And I, you know, I've I think this is one of the things, this goes back to what we were talking about earlier is, you know, in your example of a of a woman asking, you know, asking, you know, what have you done to support black women at this company? You know, that context, that that expectation, that's, that's not that person's problem. That's an employer issue. And that is it, that is a pretty big context shift, over the last 1015 20 years as an employer is, you know, people are expecting this from their employers and the employers, again, that that aren't willing to engage in this critical discussion, and to build a culture or a space where it is okay, to ask those sorts of things or to expect those sorts of things from an employer, eventually, they're not going to have a high functioning team, because they won't, they won't have authentic people working there that are, you know, bringing their full selves to work.

Elena Armino: 37:01

Yeah, I really want to highlight what you just said, Kyle, because it's imperative, it's not, it's no longer an option. I mean, you just heard through that example, that, that there are going to be people that go and create exactly what they want. And the people that are unwilling to have a conversation like that will be left behind. And I truly believe that because the old paradigm has been, typically people that are being interviewed, the interviewees are not allowed to ask questions like that. Right. I remember being in high school, and as a, you know, biracial woman, people always told me, Oh, no, you have to be kind, you have to be very sweet in an interview, if you come across as bold, or connected to what you want, they will be threatened by you. And that's how long ago I'm only 40? Like, like, let's talk about that, you know, like, Yeah, I'm not talking about the 1950s. I was born in 1981. So, you know, like, that's, that's, that's happening on both sides, as people are getting clearer and bolder about asking for what they want. And on the opposite side of the table, employers really have to be willing to meet them where they're at.

Kyle Roed: 38:14

It's, it's, it is, it is so, so fascinating to hear that. And, and as a man, I never got that advice. You know, the advice that I got was, be, you know, be brazen, be bold, you know, take conflict head on. You know, and, and I do think it's, you know, obviously, that's societal. But, but that is, you know, that that is one of the things that we have to be mindful of. And one of the implicit biases that I have to make sure that I'm actively fighting against, as I'm interviewing individuals who are bold, and brazen, and disruptive and rebels, that I don't have, you know, a, you know, a perceived notion of how this individual will be or how they will fit, you know, those sorts of things. I mean, that it's, it is a constant fight to maintain that awareness and make sure that we don't let that enter into our decision making process as HR.

Elena Armino: 39:14

Mm hmm. Yeah. But but that's actually the work. And that's what I acknowledge it for. Because if you are in the constant conversation, that's all that it's about. You know, I think everybody some employers get caught in the mindset trap of, well, if I'm in this conversation, we can fix the problem, and eventually we won't have a problem. And I'm like, hey, guess what, you might always have a problem and that's okay. If you're in the conversation, and you're willing to do something about it, as opposed to someday in this perfect world, everything's gonna be you know, equal on all levels. I think that's what yeah, what you got, Patrick?

Patrick Moran: 39:53

Well, I was saying is what I love about this is we all have to go back and teach our managers to be ready for these questions. And don't be be so sensitive that, oh Candidate A asked me a tough question. Well, they want to know about you and your approach and this organization and quit being so sensitive, be prepared to answer those questions. Yeah, sure.

Kyle Roed: 40:16

Yeah. It's, it's, it's interesting, and this is maybe this is getting a little bit more, you know, existential than we, then we need to but, you know, it's almost like it's, it's the, the paradigm, you know, when I was growing up is, you know, asking those types of questions. Is, you know, it's not nice. You know, it's like, we come from the Midwest, you know, we have a system called Iowa. Nice, right? Yeah. I consider that to just, that's just another word for passive aggressive, right. It's like, you're just like, fake, nice, but then you go, you know, put some on Facebook about how, you know, whatever makes you angry. So I, you know, I actually prefer I prefer, you know, blunt. But, but that's, that's, that's a typical, but I think that what you just described Patrick is funny, because the the people who would react to a question like that, which I think is a fair question, but the people who would would overreact to that are showing a an extreme amount of sensitivity. And, but that's also something that we're taught, you know, not to show don't be too sensitive, right? So it's like, Listen, you can't have it both ways here, right? You can't, you can't be insensitive, and then be overly sensitive. When I when a question comes your way that you don't like, right, like, like, it is the work. It's not easy, but it's something that we've got to face head on as an organization, for sure.

Elena Armino: 41:37

I have a great example of that, Kyle, that that I'd love to share with you both because it's it's the perfect example of how this could go. You know, so I, you mentioned earlier, I have my own podcast. And so I was hiring a podcast team, when I first was in the, you know, how do I make a podcast mode? And I met with the CEO of my podcast company. And on one of our very first calls, I asked him this question. I said, Hey, I noticed that I'd like I think I prefaced it, I said something like that, I'd like to have a tough conversation with you. And he was immediately like, oh, what? Are you okay? I was like, Yeah, I just noticed that there's not a lot of diversity on your staff. And as a biracial woman, who's going to be saying a lot in the world, how will you support me in that? If I hire you? Because I, you know, I just want to know what your plan is, basically. And, you know, when he said to me, it, I'll never forget it, because it was really, really vulnerable and beautiful. And he said, Look, I know, I'm a white CEO, and I'm really trying hard to learn as fast as I can. And I haven't done enough yet. And even having this conversation makes the hair on my, my arm raise just being this, you know, and I don't have an answer. And I was like, John, that's all I need. Like the fact that you're willing to say that and be here with me and be in the conversation. Great. Hired, let's do this. But that's all it took. Right was some simple honesty about where he's at what was going on, and that he's willing to work with me on it. Okay, cool. I'm in. Right. So it doesn't take a lot. I just want to highlight that because I think people think that you got to have the perfect answer. And you don't.

Kyle Roed: 43:23

That was real. That was a real answer. Yeah. Yeah. Awesome. Well, this has been such a wonderful conversation. And I'm sure we could keep going for another hour or two, between the three of us, but I do want to be respectful of your time. And we're coming towards the end of our time together. So I want to shift gears and go into the rebel HR flash round. So all right, brace yourself. You ready? I'm ready. All right, here we go. Question number one. What is your favorite people book?

Elena Armino: 43:51

Oh, my favorite people book. Oh, man. I really like the Gifts of Imperfection by Brene. Brown. I also love when things fall apart. I think the children it's another good one. And if I had to pick a third off the top of my head, it would be probably the Four Agreements by Manuel Ruiz.

Kyle Roed: 44:12

Awesome. Awesome. Check those out. And just so just so that the audience knows like how legit Elena is. She literally just turned around and looked at her bookshelf. They're like right there on her bookshelf.

Patrick Moran: 44:22

They are there right here.

Kyle Roed: 44:24

People practice what she preaches. So that was impressive. Nice. All right. Question number two, who should we be listening to?

Elena Armino: 44:33

Oh my gosh. Okay. So if you're not listening to Brene Brown, everything we talked about today is in Bearnaise research. So for all of you that need stats and data behind everything we just talked about, go check out Brene Brown so she's got two podcasts daring greatly, or sorry, dare to lead and unlocking us is the other one. Other podcasts that I love are I feel awful by Christine sacks. She's another coach in the world that I adore and She does this. It's like a mini micro podcast that gives you tips about leadership. And then another one that's fire right now is a slight change of plans by Maya Shanker. And she's, she's a friend of a friend of mine, but she's really just well traveled and well spoken, and it's all thought leadership stuff.

Kyle Roed: 45:19

Awesome. Awesome. All right, last question. hardest one, how can our listeners connect with you

Elena Armino: 45:27

so hard? Um, let's see, well, you can go to the C suite collective calm and that does have a dash in it. So the c dash suite collective comm we our website will be launching on November 1, but there's a page there that you can contact us until then you can find me at Elena army whoa.com. And of course, you can find me on the podcast in a matter of speaking.

Kyle Roed: 45:49

Awesome. We will have all that information in the show notes. So check it out. Just been absolutely wonderful conversation today. Some really great content here. For our listeners, listen to this and then listen to it again, because I'm sure you're gonna miss something. And there's a lot to take away from this. So thank you so much, Elena. Really appreciate the time. Have a great rest of your day.

Elena Armino: 46:08

Thank you so much. Thank you.

Kyle Roed: 46:11

All right. That does it for the rebel HR podcast. Big thank you to our guests. Follow us on Facebook at rebel HR podcast, Twitter, at rebel HR guy, or see our website at rebel human resources.com. The views and opinions expressed by rebel HR podcast are those of the authors and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of any of the organizations that we represent. No animals were harmed during the filming of this podcast. Maybe