Speaker 2: 0:03

This is the Rebel HR podcast, the podcast about all things innovation in the people's space. I'm Kyle Rode. Let's start the show. Welcome back, Rebel HR community. We are going to have a fun conversation today. With us we have Lucy Adams. Lucy is the CEO of Disrupted HR, which has got a lot of corollaries to this podcast. We're going to have some fun today. She is also the author of two books HR Disrupted and the HR Chain Toolkit. Lucy, welcome to the podcast.

Speaker 3: 0:41

Hi Kyle, how are you doing?

Speaker 2: 0:43

Doing great. Doing great, even better now that we're going to have a great conversation. Good job.

Speaker 3: 0:49

Looking forward to it.

Speaker 2: 0:50

When we were getting ready to get started. It's been a busy day in the world of HR, so I'm really looking forward to this conversation so that I can hit, restat and spend some time just learning from an expert such as yourself. So thank you for spending some time with me.

Speaker 3: 1:05

It's very kind of you to invite me.

Speaker 2: 1:08

Absolutely Looking forward to it, and kudos to Lucy for taking the chance on a cold LinkedIn outreach. So always a risky endeavor for an EHR expert. So thank you. I want to start off. I want to understand a little bit around how you got where you are, because I think the journey to CEO of Disruptive HR is an interesting one. So what motivates you to found your company and ultimately do the work you do?

Speaker 3: 1:43

Well, I mean, I describe myself as a recovering HR director. I have been in HR for, oh God, more years than I want to think about, and you know some fairly big, meaty multinational corporates. But probably the one that your listeners will have heard of was the BBC, where I headed up HR for some time, and it was really there that my frustrations with my own profession and with myself, I think, crystallized, because there we were going through unbelievable changes, not unique to the BBC, but stuff that every organization is facing, whether it be digital disruption, financial challenges, changing expectations. You know blah, blah, blah. We all know it. But there were my leaders, my employees, my organization, you know, coping and trying to thrive through this disruption. And there was I delivering HR like I'd done in the 1980s and the 1990s.

Speaker 3: 2:41

You know I'm still going to them with the HR manual that tells us if you want a pipeline of talent, you've got to do a nine-box grid and review it every year, and if you want people to be performing well, you've got to set objectives at the start of the year and then you've got to review them out of five at the end of the year. Or maybe you even go a bit radical and have statements like meets expectations and try and persuade them that that actually means good. You know the stuff, carl, you've been there.

Speaker 3: 3:11

And I just got fed up with it. I kind of kept thinking, god, there's got to be something different, there's got to be more innovation. But every kind of HR conference I went to, I was just hearing more of this so-called best practice. Hr conference I went to, I was just hearing more of this so-called best practice. And so I decided that myself, my business partner, who I'd worked with for a number of years we had a very, very long lunch in Covent Garden in London one day and we just thought we're going to go for it. We're going to set up a business and I'll be completely honest with you, I thought all I need to do is make contact with my network who are based in these you know, high tech companies in Silicon Valley, because they've got it all sorted right. So I'm going to make contact with them and then I'm going to steal all their ideas, repackage it and then sell it to a European audience.

Speaker 3: 3:58

And actually it was hugely disappointing. They weren't actually doing anything too dramatically different to what we were doing here in Europe and the UK. In fact, in some cases they were more process oriented, they were more old fashioned. So we had to start from scratch, and so that's what we did, and so we looked outside of the profession. We looked at marketing, we looked at agile product design, we looked at neuroscience, we looked at tech, we looked at all sorts of advertising you know, pr. We looked at all sorts of different disciplines and organizations and we arrived at a formula, a format, if you like, and a way of thinking about HR that I think is different, and that we now work with HR professionals, leaders directly all over the world and in every sector to help them do things differently. So our mission is just changing people practices for good, and that's what we do every day and we love it. We love it.

Speaker 2: 5:00

I love it. I love it. You know, it's really fascinating to me from my seat. So I have the honor of getting to work in an international company. I get to work with all of these different cultures all around the world, and a big part of my role has been trying to standardize and try consistency and systemization and process all the all the buzzword, right, yeah, cross-functional synergy, um, but? But what I have found time and time again, regardless of where I'm at in the world or what location I'm at, or that it's like we're all stuck in this same type of paradigm where, where we are, just we're just copying and pasting whatever we've done in the past because we feel like it's worked right, like, like there's like this feeling that the nine box well, you know what? I did that 20 years ago in my first job out of college. So that must be the way that we should just do it, that's the way it's done, right? But? And then you talk to everybody and that's just the assumed quote, best practice. But the reality is….

Speaker 3: 6:10

We can trash the nine-box grid all day. We can trash all of those other processes as much as you want, kyle, because we know it doesn't work right. We know and I've been selling the nine-box grid to leaders when I was working in corporate HR for years, and we know that it doesn't actually improve talent mobility, which is what we're trying to do it for, and there are good reasons why it doesn't work. Should we trash the nine box grid now?

Speaker 2: 6:40

I mean, I don't think we have time to trash all the different best practices. You know we could go. No fault attendance we could go. You know annual performance evals we could go five. Don't think we have time to trash all the different best practices. You know we could go. No fault pretendance we could go. You know annual performance evals we could go five point performance grade. I think you know the question that that prompt and I love the example you used of you know you went to Silicon Valley and assumed that they had it all figured out, but in many cases they just. You know it was like window dressing right, window dressing right, like. I think the question that that prompts in my mind is what? What are we actually measuring as success in most of our organizations of HR? Right, because my my tell me if I'm off base, but my assumption is what? What we are actually defining as good HR practice is a feeling that upper management thinks it's good but may or may not actually be good, right or effective at all.

Speaker 3: 7:30

It's a really, really good question and I think you know measuring whatever it is we're trying to measure, particularly in a knowledge economy, is really hard.

Speaker 3: 7:42

You know the day when we could measure productivity by how many widgets were put into a box per hour isn't open to us particularly anymore. You know, for most of us, it's actually about a judgment call about whether somebody is performing or not. We try and judge and evaluate our people and we give them ratings, which is just so spurious because, as we know, managers are incapable of rating people consistently and objectively, not because they're bigots or idiots, it's because they're human beings and we all suffer from rater bias. So I think the only true measure really comes back to the business measures of long-term prosperity, sustained growth, sustained wealth creation, impact, reputation all of the things that we measure as a business, and we have to have, I think, some confidence that the people play into that and are a huge contributor to that.

Speaker 3: 8:41

But we can't be exact and I wrote something recently that great HR is messy. It is really messy and I think, in an environment where we're trying to look for certainty and get certainty, HR I've been guilty of this is trying to replicate finance and talk about human capital and ROI and all of these things that we think sound impressive. But ultimately, I think we need to regain that superpower that is. We are the human experts and we can talk about humans and we can talk about how to improve the experience for them. We can talk about how they're likely to respond in different such situations. We can talk about how we can improve the conditions whereby they might perform more effectively, but not by trying to narrow that down to a set of metrics around churn or absenteeism or annual engagement survey data.

Speaker 3: 9:47

I think we need to be more like marketing. Actually, Marketing is going to do with customers. What we're trying to do with human employees, we're trying to change perceptions, change behaviors and improve brand loyalty. And what marketing do very effectively is they use a number of blend of measures and they build a story and a narrative about customer reactions and reputation. And I think that's where we need to be at, rather than trying to emulate finance with our absolutes.

Speaker 2: 11:02

I, lucy, I knew we were going to be kindred spirits when we started because I could not agree more and actually, when you started going down the finance path, I thought, well, we're probably more like marketing. So, you, you totally sold a thought out of my head or had it way before I. Likely interesting about some of this? This corollary is the fact that, like you know, marketing used to be very similar to hr, where it was almost like this back office administrative function and it was just all about like, hey, let's post these ads, let's see what happens, you know, let's do. Now they are at the forefront of almost every successful business driving strategy focused on things like customer sentiment, and and and in analytics, we drive this value proposition for our customers on a human level.

Speaker 2: 12:00

Opportunity to do that right now, like in the environment that we're in right now, where we've got you know the the quote war for talent, got you know, you've got you know an opportunity where we were thrust into the kind of the forefront of of many businesses during the pandemic and you know we, we have an opportunity to step up. So I'm'm curious, given, given your, your perspectives, uh, which I haven't talked to anybody, that's got like your exact like level, like hr expertise, and now focus on kind of the future of hr. Um, from your perspective, how do we grasp this moment in time as hr professionals and how do? How do we really like, how do we have that moment in the sun and and start to start to drive change? What have you seen be successful? What recommend?

Speaker 2: 12:57

huge question I know I with this is like 16 podcasts, yeah, but just answer two minutes I will do my best.

Speaker 3: 13:06

I will do my best to kind of give me my thoughts on that, because it's a real biggie and I think it brings into play questions and doubts that we have about our ability to influence and have credibility with leaders. It brings into doubt and question all of the processes that we've relied on to achieve our ends and it also brings into question our own confidence as a function. I think there are a number of things that we can do to make the most of this moment and I've kind of alluded to some of them already. I think the first thing that you kind of highlighted there is when we were laughing and perhaps being a little bit disrespectful to some of the processes and apologies if people out there are already, you know, still using them, because you know there's no higher moral ground here on my part. Everything I criticize I have done right. So there is there is no um. As I say there's no um, there is real humility here likewise.

Speaker 2: 14:03

Yes, I, I'm right there with you, lucy.

Speaker 3: 14:06

It's only because we've seen that it doesn't work that we're able to judge ourselves really. But I think one of the first things that we do is when we want to provide a solution to our business. It could be we need more innovation, we need greater agility, we need more collaboration, we need to make more money. Whatever it might be, we opt for a process solution, typically one size fits all, as opposed to really thinking about the human challenge that we're trying to address so classically, right. So a company called DNV they're a big consulting organization, global, and they were looking at they wanted to improve performance. Performance was suffering a little. They wanted to improve performance and the classic thing was we need to improve the performance management system and luckily, they kind of took a step back and they said no, actually, how do we want people to feel? And, as a function that deals with human beings, we ask that question very rarely in HR how do we want people to feel? Not what are the process steps we need them to go through, how do we want them to feel? And what they came up with? They said we want people to feel lifted up. Lifted up in terms of ambition, lifted up in terms of motivation, clarity, skills levels, and it was by taking that human condition that they wanted to create those experiences and those feelings, that they were able then to be much more innovative and creative in the solutions that they arrived at. They didn't then resort to a performance management system because, ultimately, that hadn't worked in the past and they arrived at. They didn't then resort to a performance management system because, ultimately, that hadn't worked in the past and it certainly wasn't going to drive the feelings and emotions that they were looking at.

Speaker 3: 15:53

So I think sometimes we jump at process solutions too readily, we jump at so-called best practice process solutions too readily, and I think, first and foremost, let's remember that we deal with human beings. You know beautiful, wonderful, incredible, annoying, frustrating, mercurial human beings who are all different to one another. And you know we were talking before we came on air about the fact that standardization is something that in HR, we see as a good thing by and large. So we like, we think and we believe and I think this has held us back dramatically this idea that if we are consistent we will be fair, that consistency drives fairness, and actually that's not true and it's incredibly unhelpful. So instead of standardizing, we need to be, in my view, thinking about. And a horrible word. But how do we consumerize the workplace? How do we consumerize and provide options and choices and adaptations and different offerings for people and business units and different leaders to reflect what they need and who they are, what's right for them in that context, at that moment?

Speaker 3: 17:11

You know, I often speak to HR people who are really frustrated because group the center has come out with yet another wheeze that they then have to implement. And you've got people who are in manufacturing, on manufacturing sites, or they're in the back office sites, or they're in the back office or they're in customer service teams and they're saying that might work for these guys but it doesn't work for us. So actually, the ability to say that this is what we're trying to achieve, these are the outcomes that we want from you. How you do that is up to you. We're going to help you and give you some advice and guidance, but ultimately, what we're interested in is you achieving these outcomes.

Speaker 3: 17:55

So SAP did this and they said to their people leaders we want you to coach your team, show appreciation and lead with trust. That's it Now. We're not going to tell you how to do it. We're not going to give you a long list of competencies and if you're an introvert with a virtual team, you might do that very differently to an extrovert who's got a big, experienced team that he sees every day. But we're going to measure it and I think when we look at what managers go through, they are expected to be held accountable for their finance output, their customer output, but when it comes to people, never are their people outcomes measured, but SAP they do.

Speaker 3: 18:37

And if you're not getting decent people scores, they ask their people. You know, does your manager coach you to do a better job? Do you feel appreciated because of how your manager interacts with you? Does your manager create autonomy for you to do your best work? And if you're not consistently getting good marks on that, then you maybe don't go on and measure and manage more people. So I think there's something about us being really comfortable that we don't have to be consistent to be fair and we can provide different options and choices, just like I would expect in my human life outside of work. We need to be thinking about the human aspect rather than the process solution. And then, finally, I would say that we need to move away from parenting people in the workplace to treating them as grown-ups and adults Happy to expand on that.

Speaker 2: 19:30

Yeah, yeah, I think we should go there Before we hit record. I was telling a story about, you know, a number of years ago, an HR mentor of mine as I was training in a new role that this is basically like adult daycare right. And that was essentially the onboarding for the role. And the reality is, because that was the attitude of the HR department and really the attitude of the management team overall, that's exactly what people lived up to.

Speaker 2: 20:04

That was the behavior that we saw in the workplace, because we were like, we're going to treat you like children, so then we had behavior that you know encapsulated that assumption right, and so I want to expand on that a little bit, because I think it's really important and it's easy for us, especially day-to-day, because we we deal with a lot of the negative right to to, to attribute, to associate the negativity or maybe some of these detrimental behaviors to everybody in the workplace, and then we start to infantilize the team. So walk us through your thought process and how we should be thinking about how to treat people like human beings, about how to treat people like human beings and, like you know, human beings that have their own needs, wants, aspirations, desires and adult.

Speaker 3: 20:54

Yeah, so I'll give you my little anecdote. You were mentioning yours and I hadn't been at the BBC very long and it was a snowy day. Right. The snow started to fall and that's quite a big deal. In the UK particularly the South of the UK, rather than Scotland, they have snow, but the rest of us don't have huge amounts. It's a big deal. The whole country grinds to a halt.

Speaker 3: 21:18

And one of my team came to me and they said oh, Lucy, it's snowing, it's time to write the all staff email. And I was like what do you mean, the all staff email? They said well, when it snows, we write to our people and we tell them they should think about going home. And I just thought well, you know, can't they look out the window? What happens if they don't get the email? Do they just sit there and wait while the snow piles up around them and then they can't get home? It's like, of course not. They're grown-ups, they're completely capable of making a judgment about their journey to and from work and the weather. But something in us made us feel that we needed to look out for them, we needed to take care of them. It comes from a good place. It's why we still have in the washrooms, like now wash your hands. You know we still have this desire to look after.

Speaker 3: 22:05

And we also then have not just the caring parent, but we have the critical parent. And the critical parent is where someone, somewhere, has done something bad, and so we write a rule and a policy. Now, the fact is that 99% of the people in the organization aren't going to behave badly and do that thing, but we've got yet another rule and all the time what we're doing is say what we want is passive, compliant behavior. It puts us, as HR professionals, into that compliance officer role. How many times have you walked into a room and a group of people will say oh, be careful, hr's here. You know, watch what you say. Hr's in the room. It's like really. So this adult to adult? And we know, we know the research tells us that when people are treated as adults and grownups, they are more productive, they are more innovative, they are more capable of taking a calculated risk, of embracing change, all of the things that we're craving in this disrupted world. So it makes sense, but we're terrified, of course we're terrified. So how can we begin to do that? Well, I think there's things that we can do relatively easily.

Speaker 3: 23:16

There are a number of our policies the classic one I'm sure you've come across one of these in your time, kyle, where we specify the number of days you can take off for bereavement based on the relative's relationship to you, so the deceased relationship to you. So if it's a mom or a dad, you get three days. If it's an aunt or an uncle, you get one day. Really, really, really. We know that we've got one person in our team whose grandma has died for the fourth time this year. We've got an issue with that individual.

Speaker 3: 23:52

But the vast majority of people actually want to come to work, do a decent job, behave decently. So we can look at some of our policies with that kind of slightly different lens about. Are we designing around the lowest common denominator here, or are we designing around the majority? We can start to put in place light touch principles rather than these detailed prescriptive policies that we think are going to keep us safe when they're not. So there's a whole raft of examples I could give you of new approaches to policy, with starting point of adult-to-adult HubSpot. You know they take an approach which says we use three words for the vast majority of our policies use good judgment, which I just you know it's just great, we get it, don't we? We know what good judgment, which I just you know, it's just great, we get it, don't we? We know what good judgment is.

Speaker 3: 24:44

We can also look at some of those things that we're frightened of and think that we need to have these prescriptive and protective policies in place, like probation. I mean probation. You know. We spend all this money bringing people in and then we give them a name, put them under something that's called probation atlantic. They looked at how many people filled the probationary period every year on average, and out of 10 000 people, it was two. Two people on average failed it. So let's not design around the majority. Let's just let's let's sorry, let's not design around the minority. Let's design around the majority and deal with individual poor behavior. Um, as and when I could.

Speaker 2: 25:30

You know, I couldn't agree more, you know, side note, at least you know, in the united states, using probation doesn't even give you any sort of like legal protection either. Like, like you, like it doesn't let you terminate anybody anymore, simply like you still have to do. So why do we? Why do we do it? Well, because in a lot of times you'll hear well, I had to do it, you know, it's like well, okay, I don't care about your ego, right, it's like, I care about the employee experience, so I'm so sorry you had, but that's so common, right, it's, it's, it's the same, it's same as their. The answer well, that's the way we've always done right, which is, you know, you might as well just say well, we're not innovated, uh, so, but I, I think, you know, I think it's like this. This is one of those, those points.

Speaker 2: 26:19

Um, side note, I totally agree on the policy thing, literally like, like. I don't even know how many arguments I have on a daily basis like no, we don't need a policy for this. Like, like, like, no. You have one person that just needs to have the behavior address, and you know how we have that address. We have a conversation with them and explain hey, that don't do that right like that doesn't mean I need to write a policy and then roll it out to 2,000 people and say you know what, in the off chance that you actually do have.

Speaker 3: 26:48

But I think also Sorry.

Speaker 2: 26:50

I interrupted Right Go ahead.

Speaker 3: 26:56

Yeah, and we know that there are a number of managers line managers in our organizations who don't want to take ownership of that using their judgment. They don't want to have to have the conversation. It's just so much easier for them to say well, hr is making me do this. If it was up to me, you know, I wouldn't insist on it, but it's policy. It means they don't have to use their judgment and they don't have to have a conversation. But equally, I think there are managers that would be more confident and capable of using their judgment if we were to allow it. And again, you know we have got large numbers of people in line management roles who in some ways, no fault of their own, are managing other human beings when they really shouldn't be. They really shouldn't be. They went for that promotion because they wanted more money or because they wanted increased status or they wanted to feel like they were progressing, or good valid reasons. But they've suddenly ended up with a bunch of people and they're not really sure how to handle that. But we got to get out of this kind of codependent relationship with them. You know, if we can begin to encourage them to use their judgment, if we can start to take away some of the guardrails. Okay, we're not going to do it overnight. You know I liken it to a child on a bike with training wheels. You're not going to whip those training wheels off and just push them off down the road that would be negligent. But you're not going to keep the training wheels on until they're 30 either. You're going to work with them. You're going to build their confidence, gradually, build their capabilities, and I think that's our.

Speaker 3: 28:42

You know when I talk to HR about you know what's going on for you at the moment. What are your biggest challenges? Some of them will talk about AI and all of this sexy stuff, but you know what? The vast majority still keep coming back to the fact that it's about managers and having conversations with their team members. So we've still got a load of work to do there and I think, rather than mandating staff and training them in old fashioned ways, I think we can begin to shift it by addressing some of the policies that we have, giving them scenarios to handle and giving them more confidence about how they deal with it. We can test and learn with some of the pilot areas in our organizations. Go with the early adopters, celebrate their wins. There are different ways in which we can start to build that capability and confidence of our line managers, but not all of them will make it.

Speaker 2: 29:35

Right, right, I totally agree. I think about our job more. So. It's less about us doing things ourselves, but about us creating an environment for our leaders to be successful. Absolutely like drafting policies or not getting sued. It's about making sure that our teams are successful and that we're creating that environment for them to be successful. And, like you said, my thought immediately went to the reality is, we also have a lot of leaders that are really not equipped to do that role, or they got promoted because they were great individual contributors and now they're guess what? You know what Job. Now here's four people, so do what you were doing really, really well, but now manage these four people to do it as well, and not everybody's not everybody's gonna succeed at that. Right, and in case the people that aren't great individual contributors might be your best leaders, uh, no, absolutely right.

Speaker 2: 30:38

Right, right. So yeah, at what they do, it's somebody who can get the most from their team and that's a low ego kind of leadership, isn't it?

Speaker 3: 31:21

And I'm not sure we've always got that in mind when we're doing our doing our succession planning and and leadership competencies and promotion boards and so on.

Speaker 2: 31:26

Yeah, no, I mean, there's a reason that most leaders are like extroverted optimists, right, but then that may not necessarily be the like. You might need a pragmatic, introverted leader that helps elevate others around them. Uh, that that might not be the loudest person on that teams meeting every day, right, like like that might actually be you know, I don't know if you've heard of easy jet, the airline, but, um, they did something really interesting.

Speaker 3: 31:53

They did a piece of succession planning where they didn't just do it top down but they also did it bottom up as well. So so they asked people in the organization, who do you want to be led by? And of course, in some instances there was some mirroring of the top-down, but there was also a lot of people's names that came up who wouldn't have been spotted by the top-down succession planning because they weren't necessarily the big ego charismatic, whereas my chief exec and another company used to say to me um, it's the x factor that we want, lucy, from our leaders. And I was like what really you want, the x factor?

Speaker 3: 32:32

whatever that means they prepared some great narcissists coming in yeah, whatever the heck the x I don is.

Speaker 2: 32:40

I don't know, I love it, though. Give me this really really nebulous unspecific term that really actually means people that I like and then let's build an organization around that. I actually don't think that's in an HR best practice book anymore. I think that's wrong.

Speaker 3: 33:00

No, that was one of his own.

Speaker 2: 33:05

An amazing conversation. This is one of those podcast episodes where it's like I'm sure we could go for another three, four hours.

Speaker 3: 33:12

I'm sure.

Speaker 2: 33:14

We are eating into your evening and I appreciate your time. So I'm going to be gracious and we're going to switch gears. We're going to go into the Rebel HR flash round. I'm fascinated to be gracious and we're going to switch gears.

Speaker 3: 33:26

We're going to go into the rebel.

Speaker 2: 33:27

HR flash round. Uh, and I'm fascinated to hear your responses here. Are you ready?

Speaker 3: 33:30

Yeah, All right. Question number one where do we need to rebel? Oh God, so many places. But I'm going to give the short answer of um assumptions and beliefs that we that hold us back. So I mentioned we have to be consistent to be fair, if we don't make managers do it with process, they won't do it. If we don't do mandatory training, they won't come. All of those kind of HR has to own it. We have to have a record. There are so many of them and I think if we start to challenge some of those assumptions and beliefs, then we'll free ourselves up to think differently, like and we alluded to this earlier.

Speaker 2: 34:20

You know, both you and I have done these things right, these things that were kind of like, like not actually best practice, and the reality is, most of you out there are stuck doing some of this stuff right now and you're not going to be able to change it all. Right, but, but find, like, find the areas that are most egregious and just start to make these little changes. Right, like, yeah, this policy needs to die. Let's kill it. Right Like, we have used this one time in the last seven years. Maybe we can eliminate Apollo. Right Like, just start, as simple as that, right, yeah, but start to. You know, if you start to make these changes, eventually you'll get to a point where you're comfortable that you're using your highest and best self to make it All right. Question number two who should we be listening to?

Speaker 3: 35:09

Well, I think this is a slightly ironic answer from me, given that you know clearly I am somebody that talks to HR people, but I would say, you know, extend your sources of stimulation. So listen to history podcasts, listen to people who talk about AI, listen to medical practitioners, listen to anybody but HR for a while or in addition, and just begin to draw insights from them that we don't always necessarily get if we're only stuck looking in and down into our own profession. So I particularly like a business leader. I love Margaret Heffernan. I could listen to her reading out a shopping list, so I would recommend her.

Speaker 2: 36:00

You know what? I couldn't agree more. Um, I think that's where the learning happens right. Once you, once you get out of your, you get out of this box. You know we've talked about nine boxes and check boxes on performance and balance We'll get out of the HR box and expand the aperture and you'll. I guarantee you that there's some, there's some discovery there. Final question here We've just barely scratched the surface of some of your work. You've got books out there. I know you do a significant amount of work out there. How can our listeners connect with you, learn more, get their hands on the books and continue their journey of learning?

Speaker 3: 36:42

So, very simply, disruptivehrcom, and we have a community which people can join for free or they can pay always nice, but they can join for free as well and get resources and free training and so on. So DisruptiveHhrcom, and then look at Join Our Club.

Speaker 2: 37:04

Absolutely, and we will have that link in the show notes. Open up your podcast player. Click on. In. Lucy, it's been an absolute joy to meet somebody so like-minded and making so much change in the world of HR and our people readership today. So thank you for your work and thank you for your time today.

Speaker 3: 37:25

It's been a real pleasure, Carl. Thank you for inviting me on. Thank you.

Speaker 1: 37:30

All right, that does it for the Rebel HR podcast. Big thank you to our guests. Follow us on Facebook at Rebel HR Podcast, Twitter at Rebel HR Guy, or see our website at RebelHumanResourcescom. The views and opinions expressed by RebelHR Podcast are those of the authors and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of any of the organizations that we represent. No animals were harmed during the filming of this podcast.

Speaker 2: 38:00

Baby.