Speaker 1: 0:03

This is the Rebel HR podcast, the podcast about all things innovation in the people's space. I'm Kyle Rode. Let's start the show. Welcome back, rebel HR community. This is going to be a fun one. Today With us we have Andrew Berry. Andrew is the founder and CEO of Curious Lion, and we're going to be talking all about developing leaders today. Andrew, welcome to the podcast.

Speaker 2: 0:29

Kyle, thank you so much for having me on. I'm excited for this.

Speaker 1: 0:33

Me too. I'm so pumped about this. I think, given your work and given what we talk about on this podcast, this is going to be a pretty darn fun conversation about on this podcast. This is going to be a pretty darn fun conversation just purely because I think we both have a perspective that we should do some change in how we help our employees succeed in our organizations. So the first question that I have for you is what motivated you to found your company Curious Lion?

Speaker 2: 1:04

Yeah, I think, like with all founders, I thought I knew a better way to train people. And what's funny, I think, about my origin story is that that way that I had back then is not at all what we do now. In fact, we don't do it at all. My background is in professional accounting. I'm a chartered accountant from south africa. I moved to the states 14 years ago, qualified as a cpa here, so I was doing a lot of technical training for the firm back then, kpmg, um. I then left kpmg with this idea to. I joined a startup for a bit and we were specializing in high quality video production for the hospitality industry. So our clients are like Marriott and Hilton we.

Speaker 2: 1:49

My idea for curious lion was what if we took high quality story-based video instruction and we took that to compliance training at banks? And I had a friend of mine who I knew from KPMG days who was at JP Morgan, and I pitched this idea to him. He was like this sounds amazing, it definitely could be something we need, and so I basically convinced myself. I built up the confidence to take the leap into my own business based on that conversation, which was hilarious, because we've never, ever worked with JP Morgan, we've never made compliance videos for banks.

Speaker 2: 2:23

We yeah, I mean a lot of things changed from that moment on, but, as anybody who started a company will tell you, it's about that initial jump to be able to get over. That's one of the hardest things to get over. And then it's about listening to your markets, and I think really what I did was followed my own curiosity. I just freaking love learning. I'm obsessed with it. I'm intense, insanely curious, and I want to help other people learn better. You know, and so that's kind of what we're obsessed with doing at Curious Lion.

Speaker 1: 2:57

I love it. I love it. You know it's, it's. I think it's such a compelling problem statement, just learning and development in general, and we were talking briefly before I hit record here. It's so easy for us to just say, well, hey, this is the program that I went through at this Fortune 500 company and so we're just going to copy paste and replicate and we'll just, we'll just, uh, take everybody in this nine box on this top and we'll just throw them into this program. You know, check that box done, lnd done you know I can, I can tell my board that we've submission.

Speaker 1: 3:37

You know, mission accomplished yeah, but the reality is that's not really how. It's not really how it works, and it it's not necessarily working. And so I'm curious as you look at how we think about learning and development in our organizations, what's your approach and how do you approach it a little bit differently than what you were seeing in the organizations before you started the company?

Speaker 2: 4:01

Yeah, you kind of hit on it here. For me, the frustrating part was always that these things were trying to be done at scale, and I just don't think that's any way to actually create meaningful change for people. And so what we're obsessed with is how do we create personal transformations at the individual level for everyone who goes through our programs, who goes through our programs? Now, that does mean that a big part of our work is focused on a smaller scale. Right, we work with high potential cohorts, so that's typically anything from 20, 25 people to like 50 max at a time. We create these annual programs for them.

Speaker 2: 4:39

These are the people that the companies have identified as their future leaders, and they can't promote all these people. They've got to, like, do something with them to keep them around right To the point when they can promote them, because they can't just do that every year, right, so our programs are kind of fitting that that niche, right Of like, how do we let's give them professional development, personal development, and the great thing about working with these people is they all growth mindset anyway, right, so we get to really go deep at the individual level on that, and I think that's what we're responding to, uh, in our work, um, what I'll also say, like there is a time and place for training at scale and we do also create stuff that's for thousands of people, for onboarding and that. But the objective is different. It's not behavior change anymore, there's more information transfer, awareness, maybe a little bit of getting them to think about next steps, but we do a bit of that. But, like I said, I'm obsessed with behavior change and that's what we focus on mainly.

Speaker 1: 5:44

Yeah Well, I think you know it's. I think you hit the nail on the head. You know this is change and leadership and in development, it's so incredibly personal, right, like you know, and and what's right for one person and their journey is going to be a little bit different than somebody else, and it really all does come down to behavior. Right, that's really where the change happens. I mean it's, it's. I can't tell you how many times I sit through this like training program and it's like everybody's agreeing and we're all nodding our heads and it's like, yeah, this makes perfect sense. And then you just go like, yeah, this makes perfect sense.

Speaker 1: 6:25

And then you just go well, that was great and then you go back to the exact same behaviors that you were doing before the session because you're like okay, time to go back to my. You know, I just like like a great example. Like you know, you do this training on productivity and you're like, oh, I should do this this. Okay, well, I'll get to that after I get through these 200 emails and do them exactly like I did before the training, exactly right yeah, does it work?

Speaker 2: 6:43

yeah, yeah, you've got to. You've got to, like, tie it to something meaningful for that person in their role, right, and in their in their job, and like, if you can, if you can get them to have that self-awareness to kind of figure out what do they want then to help them see how that aligns with what the business wants. Then you've got all the recipes for people to get their motivation cranked up right, because now they're going to be internally driven to to figure this stuff out. And yeah, then you've got all the recipes for people to get their motivation cranked up right, because now they're going to be internally driven to figure this stuff out. And yeah, then you just got to meet them where they are and give them that push to do something different, like you said.

Speaker 1: 7:15

Yeah, absolutely. So I think you know, solving that motivation piece is obviously really critical, right. Motivation piece is is obviously really critical, right like there, there, almost has to be like it has to be a catalyst of some sort right or or some sort of like a compelling reason. I mean, human beings are naturally resistant to uh, to something that puts them out of their comfort zone.

Speaker 2: 7:38

But what does it take to?

Speaker 1: 7:39

change. You got to get out of your comfort zone, right? So it's like it's this kind of crazy, crazy paradigm, right yeah 100%, 100%.

Speaker 2: 7:48

That's like at the core of our work.

Speaker 2: 7:50

That's the problem we solve every single day, basically, and it's fun because, yeah, the answer exists at the individual level, you know, and it's like that's why I love you know we do again, we do a lot of that training at scale, but I personally am more involved in the cohort stuff and that's where I get to work with a group of 30 people, where we just got back from one in California and it was a three-day thing and so we got stuff on at night and I'm getting to know these people on an individual level and know what's driving them personally as well as professionally. And that's when you see, like, know, and, like I said earlier, they also all have a growth mindset, so they're all looking for the next way to improve, the next thing they can do differently. So they're hungry for that information and I just see my role as kind of being there to share what I've learned and maybe what I've researched for their particular problem as well, and then let them figure it out, you know, and like they've got the answers already.

Speaker 1: 8:47

It's just giving them the tools to get those answers out well, I think what's interesting with that approach too, is you're tapping into what the you know kind of research has told us and I think we all kind of intuitively understand is adults don't want to be told what to do. They want to like, they want to come to the solutions themselves. They want to find the answers through you know, through their experiences, and, and you're never going to get actual behavioral change unless somebody believes in it. Uh, or it was their idea. Even better, right, yeah, so so how do you? How do you cultivate that environment Like, like? So I think everybody listening how do you cultivate that environment like, like? So I think everybody listening to this right now is kind of like, nodding their heads like, yeah, yeah, that makes sense. So so what's the how, like, yeah, like. How do we kind of like, like, adjust to the way that we think about this and structure these types of programs so that it it works that way?

Speaker 2: 9:41

yeah, yeah. So I think there's a few components. I think one is is self-reflection. That's a huge part. I can't I've lost count of how many times participants have come out to me and said you know, the most valuable part of this program was that reflection exercise of, like you know, I'm talking basically what do you want? Type questions, right, like and, and it's a little bit of what do you want and, and the other half of that is what are you already good at? You know? So, like people have to have a sense of self-efficacy and so we get them to. There's a great exercise people can try.

Speaker 2: 10:13

It's like when were you at your best? I think of a specific moment in time and and sort of the story around that where you are at your best in three areas work, love, like your relationships, home sort of life, and then health, like fitness, energy, basically anything like energy related. And if you can connect with that, you kind of start to, can identify, you can start to identify or form three identities, like I am this kind of person at and at work, this kind of person at home and this kind of person in my, in my energy area of life, and that then that gives them that baseline, right. Okay, I'm really good at these things, it's got my specific nuance to it, etc. And then the vision part is so, what do you want?

Speaker 2: 10:57

Where do you want to go in your career? And now you've kind of got you know point A and point B. And now it's about you and I were talking offline before this about a rock climbing analogy. I think it's such a brilliant analogy for this because you can't plan every step from a to b. It's impossible, right. This shit happens all the time, right, excuse me, yeah, but you can cuss on here it's okay.

Speaker 2: 11:19

Okay, I'm gonna do a lot more than um and you know. So stuff happens and you gotta, you gotta navigate that. But if you can know what the next step is, what's the, what's the next thing you're going to grab on that rock, then, then you're going to be able to figure it out right, because you know where point b is, you know where the end is and you know where the next step is and you're going to just be able to keep doing that and and so that's that's. I don't know if that answers your question, but that's kind of the starting point for a lot of the jumping.

Speaker 1: 11:46

Yeah, yeah, that resonates so deeply with me because I just think, you know, there there's there's such an emphasis on you know, we have to know where we're going. We have to have everything defined on how we get there. Like I don't even know, like I'm happy where I'm at, but like the path to get here was like like twists and turns and all sorts of crazy, like like loop-de-loops, right, you know, and it's like yeah, like wow, I, you know, I, I wouldn't have mapped this out with a mentor. I literally tried to map this out when I like graduated college and like put together a development plan, and it's like wow this is so different.

Speaker 1: 12:29

But hey, here we are, you know, and so I I love you know. One of the things I want to talk about a little bit is is I love what you did on your, your website. You know you talk about, you know what worked before is no longer working, and then and then you start to dig into the. What we're really talking about here is that navigating the chaos of the world using logic doesn't necessarily work, because that's not how the world works. So help us unpack that in the context of kind of what you do?

Speaker 2: 13:02

Yeah, I love this question. So everything we know, right, all of our knowledge is based on the past, but all of our decisions are about the future. Okay, so we've got this like huge disconnect between these two things and what you tend to see, where we all do this. We all extrapolate the future. We like these prediction machines. That's what our brains do, right? We predict what's going to happen, like even in this, in the micro. We look for patterns that either confirm or disconfirm that, and so we're trying to predict it. We're trying to, but we're basing it on past experiences, and if anybody who lived through covid and you know the chaos that we've had in the financial markets and political chaos here in the state, like anybody who's lived through that is going to come out, no one's going to come out and say this was predictable, right, like we all know now that this is by far the most unpredictable time anybody who's living now has ever lived in, and it's only getting more unpredictable, right? So if that's true, then we can't say that our past experiences, what we've seen before, is going to help us, right, it's not going to help us because something new is going to happen. And so what do we do Like how do we close that gap right? And I think for me, the starting point in that is acknowledging that there is uncertainty and almost respecting it, like having you know, like that, like strong opinions loosely held right, like, yes, don't be, you know, don't not have beliefs, don't not have a point of view, but be open to them being wrong, be open to the other person having a perspective that's not, that's different to yours, right, that may help, that may cause you to revise what you know about the world or about that situation. So it's like investigate, it's like admitting to uncertainty and then and then somewhat cautious approach to everything from there onwards, which is a cautious approach, like a humility to your ideas, like, yes, I'm an expert in this thing but I'm open to new ideas, new fresh perspectives.

Speaker 2: 15:10

Double checking your assumptions Like this is a big one we work on with participants in our programs. How many of us have stories that we tell ourselves right and hidden assumptions that we make? We all do, we all have that and being able to like confront those is honestly like a big part of the work that we do. That's why I sort of say it's also personal transformation than professional, really like examining those stories and then taking action, like you've got to move forward. Move forward with caution, you know, but take action. You learn by doing and so encouraging people to take action and I don't mean just like role play doing, but like actual action in the real world. Um, as is a way to do this?

Speaker 1: 15:54

but yeah, all comes back to uncertainty and just really respecting that it's there and and not thinking that you know everything you could know right, yeah, and as I listen to that, it's like you know, gosh, what a what a better world this would be if everybody took that advice right, like? That's my big takeaway. It's about everybody and everything based upon our past patterns.

Speaker 2: 16:59

That may or may not be true hey, totally, I mean just look at yeah sorry, yeah, go ahead, I, I mean, I, I I do, I mean it.

Speaker 1: 17:09

It resonates so truly and I and I think about that in the context of, you know, leadership and and running an organization and being a human resources professional like, like, most of our job is just being curious about what's actually happening or what did happen, and trying to make the most informed decision about how to move forward, about it, right, and like so much of that, especially at the higher levels of leadership, it's not about having the answer, it's about having the right question. Yes, right, you know, and and you know, I think that that that's where you're getting, is it's? You know, the only way to navigate this uncertainty is to actually kind of embrace it a little bit, right?

Speaker 2: 17:52

yeah exactly, and and know that you never will know everything. It's all. Your knowledge is always incomplete, right, it's always. It can always be improved by taking on a new perspective, a new piece of information. You can always update your assumptions. Um, that's, that's really the key.

Speaker 2: 18:08

I think anybody like you think about anybody listening. If you know someone in your life who just speaks with absolute certainty on things like how infuriating right is that when you have that person I'm thinking of someone, a friend of mine now and it's like you know, it's so annoying because you're like how can you know that, right? How can you be that certain about something? And for me, it causes sort of me to question whether what they know you know almost everything they know, right, like, um, so I I much prefer talking to people who have that intellectual humility to be like hey, this is, this is what I think, this is what I do, and it's like it's aligned to my beliefs and my values and whatever.

Speaker 2: 18:48

But also it may be wrong. You, you know, you may know something better and I think that's a really I want to say like mature. But yeah, it's a mature way to be as a leader in a company as well, right, people respond to that much better than like and I'm not saying project uncertainty right, like that's not, obviously not what we're talking about here. There is confidence is one thing, but then having that confident humility is to also say, like I might be wrong, but this is the way I think we need to go. I think that's the kind of leader I definitely resonate more with.

Speaker 1: 19:22

I totally agree. I'm that way too, where it's like you know, I definitely resonate with the leaders that are like intellectually curious, and I think there's a time and a place right. I think you know there are crisis level situations where sometimes you just need somebody to like take control and be decisive and self-assured, but the reality is, most of the time, that's not where we're at Right. Most things are not at a crisis level that we just need somebody to like get us moving anywhere. But where we're at Um, and I think what's what's interesting about this conversation, as I reflect on it, is this is this is just like so critical for so many, many different problems that we deal with.

Speaker 1: 20:14

You think about dealing with problem performers. Well, if you get curious about why they're not performing, then you're going to be a better leader. Curious about helping your high potentials. If you're curious about where they want to go, you're going to be a better leader. Dealing with generational, you know differences. Well, if you, if you're open-minded, you're going to be better at navigating right, like it's. It's like it's so foundational to you know the kind of being an effective leader. Uh, you know that. I think it's just one of those things that, uh, you know so foundationally critical yeah.

Speaker 2: 20:53

I couldn't agree more, and there's an exercise I can share that listeners might want to try as a way to start to sort of practice the skill of like, adopting this mindset of I don't know everything is try when you're in a concert, use the performance review thing. That happens all the time, right? How many? I've done this so many times with people on my team where I have an assumption about why their performance is is poor, and in the early days I would act on that assumption and I was often proven wrong. Right, like once I dug into it there was something else that I hadn't seen, didn't know about, something personal and it's like oh shit, okay, that actually changes my, my opinion here. You know, like um and a, a great tool for this that we teach in one of our workshops is I call it how, what questions? So you basically ban the word why. So get into a performance conversation and ban the use of the word why. Avoid using it yourself completely.

Speaker 2: 21:54

Why is a very powerful question and I love that you brought up the power of questions earlier. Um, but why is is good for, like, we've all heard of the five whys. It's really, really, you know, direct way of getting at things. But that's also it's achilles heel because it's very direct and when you're talking to someone that you know reports to you, then that can come across as quite like judgmental or like it requires justification, right. So someone asks you why. It's like quite a jarring thing, and then.

Speaker 2: 22:23

So then we try to get people, we get people to practice using how and what questions, and what you find is that how and what questions. First of all, it takes creativity to come up with how and what questions you get. You still get to the why, right, you still get to the why without using the word why, and so that's the objective. Get to the why why is this performance behavior poor? But using only how and what questions, and what you find is it takes longer, it's a more roundabout way, but you get to the deeper meaning.

Speaker 2: 22:55

And because people respond to how and what questions invite narrative answers, right, like you think any, you know we could try role players, but like, yeah, any time you get a how, what question, there's a story behind that. Right, like how you know what, what happened last week in that meeting? Right, how did you feel? How did you feel leaving that meeting? Right, like those kind of questions are going to get you a narrative response and they your job as the leaders to then triangulate, you know, all those responses to get to what's really going on with this person yeah, I think I've.

Speaker 1: 23:29

Just I'm reflecting on all the conversations I've had where I've I've asked like a similar question to why did you do that?

Speaker 1: 23:37

Yeah exactly we all do that. It's always like, yeah, it is conflict ridden right, like it's a great way to get someone's like hair standing up on the back of their neck and immediately bracing themselves for impact. And I do appreciate, like sometimes you know it, it, it can, really it can expedite. You know the resolution, but I could say you know, especially where you're dealing with an ambiguous situation, eliminating that word and asking the how and the what questions. That's going to allow somebody to truly feel like they're being listened to, right, like, like, so you know it makes sense and I I love that you talked about you know kind of allowing somebody to tell a narrative and you know, I think there's so much you know research around the power of stories, right and like. You know that's how human beings used to like that, that's how we evolved to communicate with each other.

Speaker 1: 24:32

Right you know, and so so tapping into that, tapping into that is is is so important. I mean, you know one of those, one of those great examples is just about just being generally curious and stepping out of this. You know this paradigm I reflect on. You know an individual who was a direct report, really really tenured employee, who everybody just assumed that they just wanted to, you know, keep working in their same job until you know retirement, which is I don't know five, 10 years away, right, because they just they've done that job for so long and they're so qualified subject matter expert. And then, in a developmental discussion where the simple question is what would you like to do, you know, for the rest of your career? And the answer is, well, I don't want to do this. It's like, oh, wow, had I not actually asked the question, and you know I would have been operating on a completely flawed assumption and this person would have been miserable for the next five to 10 years, right, like horrible, like nobody wants that.

Speaker 2: 25:34

So you know, simple yeah, and what a generous question. That is right. What would you like to do? Right, that's such an open, generous question and that person is going to give you something really that you can work with going forward.

Speaker 1: 25:50

Right, Absolutely. And in that situation it was a really emotional conversation because nobody had ever asked that question before yeah, yeah right, which is a little bit of a travesty, but, but, but that's the reality for a lot, of, a lot of uh, a lot of employees. So if you're a leader, if you're in hr and you're not, you know and you're not curious like you are doing your, your team of decisions so, yeah, I mean as a little side note, this is what's one of my other favorite topics about leadership.

Speaker 2: 26:22

we all have learned how not to be, how to be like, how not to be a leader, right, like from the worst leader. We've all had those leaders that are just absolutely like. They get put in there because they were a high performer, all right. Now you're managing people. They have no idea what they're doing and some of them can just be like downright shitty people, and now they're suddenly responsible for your development and it's like yeah, so it's funny like we all, as upcoming leaders, we work with a lot of these future leader programs and their exposure has just been to shitty leaders, so they have no good role models to go from. Um, yeah, it's fascinating.

Speaker 1: 27:02

Yeah, and I think it's you know and and yeah, I guarantee everybody, like everybody's saying yes as the you know into their podcast player right now, as they hear this but it's.

Speaker 1: 27:11

It's that like for this, every organization I've ever worked at, it's the. How do we deal with the, the top performing individual contributor who became a leader because those skill sets are not the same right like? That's not how it works. I mean, there's there and and there are some people who ascend into those roles and do and do amazing. And then there's some who never had any like, yeah, any any reason for actually being in the role. And I think you bring up a great point. If, if somebody doesn't have that role model, if they've never had that leader that was like inspirational and showed them what good looks like, how are, how can we hold them accountable to?

Speaker 1: 27:56

do that on their day-to-day right, exactly so how do you do that? So I know you tap into curiosity. You help people kind of realize, through reflection, these sorts of things. How do you help them understand what the good benchmark looks like? How do you kind of define that for people?

Speaker 2: 28:16

Yeah, what the good benchmark looks like. How do you kind of define that for people? Yeah, yeah, I mean I think one way I mean we just did this recently. So this is this is fresh in my mind, but we, we look at, um, we look at, you know, there's tons of these like leadership style models that are out there, and the one we use was by daniel done by daniel goldman, who wrote the emotional intelligence book, and, um, he has another book that was about six different leadership styles, and so they studied people and they put them into these six kind of categories.

Speaker 2: 28:45

And whenever I teach this, I always say, like all models, this is wrong, but it may be useful, right? So, like this isn't meant to be oh, I love that. Right, like it's not meant to be the bible here, but this is like it's helpful for the conversation, and what we then do is we get people to. So there's they're very distinct styles, in fact. There's one that's sort of command and conquer, which, like you said, is good for crisis situations. Um, there's like a democratic one, there's like an affiliative one, which is more like relationship, but you know. So there's different styles and one there's like an affiliative one, which is more like relationship, but you know. So there's different styles, and we then get them to think of role models in those styles, starting with, you know, public figures nelson mandela, you know, whatever, um, steve jobs, like all the different. Cheryl sandberg comes up a lot um, and then we ask them to think of their company, who they've worked with, that model, these different things, and that has been probably one of the most useful exercises.

Speaker 2: 29:41

And this is, by the way, this is a workshop for leaders, so the goal of the workshop is to get them to think about their own style and how you actually. So you are like pre, you are defaulting to one of those, but you need to be able to switch between all of them to your point, right, like the situation might demand that you more come on and conquer. Sometimes it might, you know, and some different people on your team demand different styles as well. That's a big part of this. If you've got 10 people on your team, you need 10 different leadership styles almost, and so that's probably the best, I find the best way, because it gets them really thinking about like, what have I seen that models, this, these different styles, and um, and then what can I do and how can I lean into my strengths to find, you know, myself in each of these styles?

Speaker 1: 30:23

yeah, I, I really I couldn't agree more that there's, you know, there's all these different like situational leadership skills that you need to have, and there's you know, I think I really struggled early in my career where, you know, I had this like this avatar of what a good leader needs to look like.

Speaker 1: 30:39

Right, it's like this, like there's this prototype and this is what you know. If I see X, then I do Y and that means I'm a good leader. But the reality is it's so much more vague than that and and what might be great for some somebody might be horrible for somebody else. Yeah and um, and and you just have to like you need some reps, like you need some at bats, you need, you need some, like some tools and ways to think about it if you're going to be successful. Right, and it's I. I appreciate that. I'm taking that. By the way, you know, all models, all models are wrong, but it could be useful.

Speaker 1: 31:14

I'm totally stealing that so unless I come up with some model, and then I'm not. I probably will stop saying that, but at any rate I know what you're saying With that being said we are. I could keep talking for the next like four hours on this, but we are. We're coming to the end of our time together. I want to shift gears and go into the rebel HR flash round. Are you ready, Sweet, let's do it All, right? Uh, where do we need to rebel?

Speaker 2: 31:44

Yeah, I think. I think it's in rejecting certainty and really focusing on developing adaptive intelligence. That's what we call it at curious line adaptive intelligence how do we intelligence? How do we, how do we learn to reject the notion that we know what's going to happen like really, really embrace that and then lean into curiosity and our natural ability to adapt. And you can still work on refining skills like, like decision making and problem solving, to be able to respond, but just ultimately trusting yourself. And I think, like you said on our website, the thing we need to rebel against is the fact that, oh, what worked in the past is going to work now, so let's just teach them that and then we check the box and we move forward.

Speaker 1: 32:30

Right, right, yeah, absolutely. I couldn't agree more. I think I love that approach.

Speaker 2: 32:41

Question number two who should we be listening to? Yeah, two come to mind. So Howard Marks. He is a famous investor. His firm is Oak Tree Capital and he has written and specifically I don't mean he writes this memo, and there's a memo on uncertainty. He wrote two like follow-up ones Around the time. Covid was like 2020, 2021. Brilliant stuff. I highly recommend that. I can send those links as well if you want to include them in the show notes. And then another one I'd recommend is a friend of mine, but I consider myself lucky to call him a friend. His name is Angus fletcher. He's a professor at a higher state university and he has. He is a pioneer in story thinking. He's got a book called story thinking, um a few other books as well, and I've learned a ton from him about the stuff we were talking around around narrative intelligence and how we can lean into our brain's ability to tell stories. So, dr Angus Fletcher and Howard Marks.

Speaker 1: 33:46

I love that. I actually read about Howard Marks yeah of 2020 and followed up on that. I think what's fascinating about him and investment in general and finance and you come from a finance background, so I'm not surprised that an investor resonates with you, but so much of what actual investing is, especially at the higher levels, it's about human behavior, right. It's actually kind of like it's research on psychology Totally, and it just happens to be that psychology is represented in numbers and strategies and investments. Versus what?

Speaker 2: 34:24

people do. It's the same thing. It's the same thing. And the whole game is trying to predict it and his whole thing, that whole memo is about that. That's not predictable. It's human behavior is not predictable. And yet the finance there's a score like there's a score that people keep right, how much money you're making, and so it's a fascinating study. And how do we, how do we? You know, his whole thing is how do we position our firm, given that we don't know what's going to happen?

Speaker 1: 34:51

um, and he goes into that, absolutely yeah yeah, yeah, I actually I think, especially like in the hr segment, I think hr people are like investors. What the heck? I actually think there's so many overlaps. It's like the same side, it's just a different side of the same coin. It's just that it's approached a little bit differently, but it's all it's it. The coin is human behavior that's really what it is.

Speaker 2: 35:13

So we're trying to figure out. We we're just approaching it differently.

Speaker 1: 35:16

Yeah, and Angus Fletcher, I'm not familiar. I have to check out his works.

Speaker 2: 35:20

Thank, you for that. Yeah, that's good stuff.

Speaker 1: 35:23

Last question here. So how can our listeners connect with you? How can they learn more and get connected to the work you're doing?

Speaker 2: 35:29

Yeah, yeah. So go check out our website. Actually, I would recommend people start on my LinkedIn. I'm very active on LinkedIn and it's a great place to get to know me and these kind of topics that I talk about. If you're interested in you know afterwards, go check out the website. But on LinkedIn I'm real Andrew Barry. And then, yeah, the website's CuriousLineLearningcom.

Speaker 1: 35:55

Absolutely. I'll also shout out here there's also a podcast. The Learning Culture Podcast is available, so happy to kind of elevate that as a if you want to keep listening and learning about learning. There you go, andrew. Just been amazing having you on. I think, certainly appreciate the work you're doing, I think it's really important and just appreciate your approach. So thanks for spending some time with us.

Speaker 2: 36:20

Yeah, kyle, thank you so much. I love this show. It's been great to be a guest on it and, yeah, I really appreciate it, thank you.

Speaker 1: 36:27

All right, that does it for the Rebel HR podcast. Big thank you to our guests. Follow us on Facebook at Rebel hr podcast, twitter at rebel hr guy, or see our website at rebel human resourcescom. The views and opinions expressed by rebel hr podcast are those of the authors and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of any of the organizations that we represent. No animals were harmed during the filming of this podcast baby.