Speaker 1: 0:03

This is the Rebel HR podcast, the podcast about all things innovation in the people's space. I'm Kyle Rode. Let's start the show. Welcome back Rebel HR community, Really excited for the conversation. Today With us we have Erickson Dickens. He is the creative director and co-founder at Dickens Brothers. We are going to be talking about how to effectively tell a story from the context of being a creative documentary filmmaker. Erickson, thank you so much for joining us today.

Speaker 2: 0:38

Hey, kyle, thank you so much for having me on. Happy to be here.

Speaker 1: 0:42

Well, we're happy to have you. As we were talking a little bit before I hit record, I believe you are the first documentary filmmaker that we have had on the podcast. So excited to have you join us and excited to learn a little bit from you. So the first question I have for you is what motivated you to found your company Dickens Brothers?

Speaker 2: 1:08

motivated you to found, uh, your company dickens brothers. Yeah, so take you down memory lane here just a little bit. But uh, so my brother and I, we grew up always making movies as kids. It was a childhood passion of ours. We loved getting the camcorder out going, just making little movies, um. And then eventually we that kind of took a backseat to athletics. Growing up, we both were pretty competitive athletes. Our goal was to get scholarships. Long story short, we ended up at the same college together. We both did get scholarships, but we both got injured in our respective sports and so we faced a bit of an identity crisis.

Speaker 2: 1:38

We didn't really know what to do with our lives now that that big piece of our identity was gone. And we put our heads together and we were like, you know, let's, let's get back into filmmaking or our childhood passion, um. So we, we put some money together and we got a camera and we just started to go out and shoot anything and everything. And it was just me and him and we weren't, we weren't going to film school, everything was completely self-taught. But we just kind of fell in love with that childhood passion again. And you know, one thing led to another and we said to ourselves why don't we try to do this full-time? Why don't we try to make a career out of doing this? We love telling stories, we love being creative. How cool would it be if we could just do this full-time? And so, um, that was about I think it was 2016 and, yeah, from that on, we've taken it and ran with it and built our careers out of it.

Speaker 1: 2:31

Yeah, that's. You know, I just think that's a cool story about chasing a passion Right and, you know, I think it's one of those areas where, first of all, I have so much respect for people that like follow that intuitive drive, um, tell us a little bit. So so you know, we didn't get into this, but I I do want to give you an opportunity to kind of toot your own horn a little bit. Um, you have, you know, you you put together a short documentary, uh, been featured in film festivals. You've, you know you put together a short documentary been featured in film festivals. You've, you've won best documentary at a few. Tell us a little bit about your documentary and ultimately, you know, kind of that process of building that story.

Speaker 2: 3:17

Yeah, absolutely so. Like I said, when we first got back into filmmaking, we were kind of doing anything and everything, and eventually we wanted to create something that really tested our storytelling prowess, and we felt like a documentary was just the pinnacle of storytelling. It was going to challenge us, right? We had to go out and, you know, do our research. We had to bring together a handful of interviews who can serve as the mouthpieces to actually drive the story forward. We had to plan locations and we didn't really know what we were doing, right, but we just wanted to just go for it and learn by doing so.

Speaker 2: 3:49

The first documentary we actually did was a film on my late father. He passed away when we were kids, and so we wanted to do something that was near and dear to us. So, long story short. We set out to create this type of documentary that really memorialized his life and captured the impact that he had, and so that took us about a year from start to finish, and, when it was all said and done, it was a really cathartic experience for us and we wanted to be able to do this again and replicate this. Unfortunately, at the time, because it was our first film, the output quality wasn't that great and so we were really hesitant to like, share it, to try to, you know, attract other clients. So we just started from that point on doing more passion projects, finding more subjects hey, can we do a documentary on you? That way we can build a portfolio and eventually we we got enough documentaries under our belt to be able to start marketing more and showcasing this portfolio off. We felt comfortable that the quality was good enough at the time.

Speaker 2: 4:51

And, long story short, we ended up getting into talks with Rotary International and one of Rotary International's initiatives is trying to eradicate polio. And long story short again, I keep saying that, but there was an upcoming trip to India. This was early 2020, right before the pandemic hit, actually and we got into touch with this group from Oakland, the Bay Area here in California, and we decided to do a film for them. With them and so my brother, he actually packed his bags, he went to India for two and a half weeks and he followed around this group of Rotarians to these very, very, very impoverished villages trying to eradicate polio. I think as of footage, got a bunch of interviews and he brought it back here.

Speaker 2: 5:36

I edited it, we came up with a 15-minute film and then we were really happy with how it turned out. It was probably the first film we had where we were like, okay, this is actually we've got something here. And we entered into a handful of festivals. We got picked up at, I think, 9 or ten or whatever it is. We won some awards and, yeah, that that gave us the, the confidence, I think that reassurance that we weren't imposters right, we could, we could actually run with this and um. So yeah, that's it in a nutshell, that that tidbit I love that.

Speaker 1: 6:20

You know, I love to use that terminology because I the the older I get and the longer I'm in my career, the more I'm like nobody really knows what they're doing. Yeah, and I have to believe as a, as a, as a filmmaker, and as you were going through that project, you're kind of like you don't really know if it's even going to land right, like you don't know how it's going to like how people are going to receive it, but but you feel like you have something worth sharing, right, or there's a, there's a draw like a creative draw to do something Exactly.

Speaker 2: 6:55

And once you have that creative draw, it's hard to just negate that like you have to do it. If you have an idea and you're a creator, you're creative. You can't help but do it. It becomes almost impulsive, I would say, or else you're just going to, it's going to eat at you on the inside if you're not acting on that creative impulse. And it takes a lot of vulnerability, honestly, to be a creator, regardless of the medium that you're in. But it does take a lot of vulnerability to put your heart and soul into something and then release it to the world and get people's critiques and judgments. And you know that's. That's something I feel like a lot of creators, including myself, still from time to time um struggle with, you know.

Speaker 1: 7:30

Absolutely, yeah. Yeah, I can't imagine like the first, so I've got to believe like the first. Um, uh, the first. Like what's the term? Like comp, like film competition, that you like submit this thing to? You're like, it's like a, a gut check moment, right? You're like, oh geez, you're just opening yourself up for the critiques, right?

Speaker 2: 7:51

yes, exactly, and as many festivals as they did pick up our film. You know that that was only like what? 20, 30 percent of the amount that we actually submitted to. I mean, we got so many rejection letters. It was like you know. But but yeah, it felt nice. It felt nice to get that reassurance and we got. We got to present it actually in front of a bunch of Rotary groups, um, like around the country, not in person. We did a lot of zoom calls with Rotary groups and it was just neat as well Telling the story, being able to see these different Rotarians from across the country relate to it on such a way to where, when they watched it, they felt like they were, they were those ones, they were the Rotarians in India actually doing it themselves, and I think that's that's kind of the power of telling a story that builds relatability in an audience. You know, absolutely.

Speaker 1: 8:40

You know, I think so. You know, some of my audience might be like Kyle. Why are we talking about documentaries and filmmaking? But what's fascinating to me about this topic and this concept and the work that you've done is you're doing a lot of the work that we are trying to do in, like in workplaces, right, you're doing it in a very creative format, but you're telling stories in a very creative format, but you're you're telling stories and you've, you've, you know you've got this concept that you've developed that you call legacy documentary, and I would, I would be interested to dig into, first of all, the you know what it is, how you define that, and and and kind of the use case in the process. So what, as you think about this concept, just give us a little bit of an understanding of the use case in the process. So, as you think about this concept, just give us a little bit of an understanding of the legacy documentary and what that means yeah for sure.

Speaker 2: 9:32

So, like I mentioned, it started with doing something for my dad and we titled that film His Legacy, and so that got us thinking like this is a very inherent need for a lot of people to be remembered fondly, to pass on their values. I feel like legacy is the culmination of somebody's experiences, their beliefs, their impact, and once we made that film, we just we wanted to be able to share this possibility with other people and offer it to them, and that got us thinking about an actual curriculum for this. So we developed these seven storytelling pillars, which essentially serve as the backbone of our films. So, regardless of the subject, whether it's an individual or a company or an organization, nonprofit, whatever it is, we follow these seven guidelines essentially. So number one is the history, diving into the history of the person or the organization. Number two is the passion. Number three is their process, their unique philosophy. Number four is the obstacles that they face. We're huge on conflict. We feel like every great story needs to address conflict and how that person overcame that conflict and came out on the other side. Number five would be the successes, so the key milestones. Number six would be the impact. So the impact that this person or organization has had on their target audience or community society in general. And number seven would be future. So if the person is still with us, is still living, we want to explore what are their future goals, their future aspirations.

Speaker 2: 10:58

In terms of use cases, it really depends on our clients. It really depends on our clients. So we've had some businesses, for example, who wanted to use this type of documentary that really memorializes who they are, their values. They want to use it for employee morale, they want to use it for partnership attraction, investor attraction, they want to use it for recruitment purposes. We then position that documentary in a way to where it makes this.

Speaker 2: 11:27

It makes the organization seem like the solution to the other person, to their target audience's problem. We position them as a place of authority, a position of authority to where, okay, their target audience is at point A, this company is the point B for them, the solution to whatever they're experiencing. So that's one use case. On the other side of things, some people, more so individuals they want to just use these types of films to pass on to their kids and their kids' kids and their kids' kids. So they use it more internally. Like I mentioned, there is something about wanting to be remembered in a positive light. I read some study actually actually ironically it's kind of interesting where psychologists actually prove that people care more about how they're remembered positively than whether or not they actually live that life in that way.

Speaker 1: 12:17

So yeah, they did, yeah, I believe that it's really interesting, so so yeah, I do think this is fascinating and I also think, like you know, you get to a point where you know, I think I don't know whether it's you know, the realization of mortality, but you know, I think a lot of people get to this point in their life where they, you know, they care more about legacy than than most other things, legacy than than than most other things. Um, and this is a, you know, a really interesting interesting way to to think about that.

Speaker 1: 12:54

Yeah, so I'm curious. I'm curious to maybe, maybe get a little bit existential here. So so why, why is legacy important? What, what, why, why do you think people care about that and why, why is that something that that you've kind of, you know, decided to apply some focus on?

Speaker 2: 13:52

Yeah, no, that's a great question. Um, actually I studied philosophy in college, so I was my major, so existentialism was oh, here we go, let's go After a while.

Speaker 1: 14:02

You start quizzing me on. Like philosophers, I'm going to be lost, but I find this concept fascinating Me too.

Speaker 2: 14:09

Me too. I think it started, for me personally, just the realization of death, as morbid as that sounds, when I lost my dad as a kid and I just I started to view life as so much more precious and valuable, and you never know when your day could come. And I think people have a fear of death in general and whether or not they've done enough, or they've done the things that they've wanted to do, or if they've taken the necessary actions to achieve that legacy that they wanted in their lives and people, they fear being forgotten. I think that's a natural human need we all have. We all have egos to some extent, right, and I think our egos are what allow us to succeed in this world or propel ourselves forward. I'm not saying it's good to be, you know, atrociously egotistical by any means, but a healthy ego, I think, is essential to living a fulfilled life in one way or another. And so we come across these people and we've kind of I don't want to say, I guess kind of tapped into this. I don't know this fear of being forgotten and not saying everything or sharing everything that you want to share with your loved ones.

Speaker 2: 15:26

Yeah, it's a very anxiety-provoking thought, I think. For a lot of people once they sit back and kind of think about it existentially, like how will I be remembered? What do I actually want my legacy to be? We've asked that question a lot throughout the years and it's a. It's a question a lot of people actually have to ponder on because they haven't maybe really thought much about it. So that's something that we've tried to cultivate through these, through these conversations with people, and it's funny because we've been told that it's almost like therapy. It's almost like a therapy session where we're getting to know these people and interviewing them, you know.

Speaker 1: 16:02

Absolutely yeah, and you know. So I'm just, I'm fascinated by the concept of legacy. I'm also it's interesting to me about the mention, the psychological principle of like caring more about how you remember versus what you actually did, which kind of sounds terrible, but it's also like it does make sense, like it's kind of how we're wired right, like you know, egoically, like we just want to, you know we want to look good in other's eyes, right, and you know we want, we want to be remembered by the group that we care about in a, in a in a positive way.

Speaker 1: 16:39

Yeah, and we're really talking about, you know, kind of storytelling in general In the context of of what we talk about on here. A lot the stories that we're trying to tell are kind of similar to this where we're trying to we're trying to tell a story around, you know, our workplace in a positive light, even though we all know not every workplace is all positive all the time. Right, we're trying to get our, you know, get our, get our leadership team to be viewed in a positive light. But you know, and and and that sort of thing, and so what advice in general would you have for us as we, we try to think about telling that story in a positive light in the context of, you know, kind of almost like a legacy documentary for the places and the people that we work with?

Speaker 2: 17:31

Yeah, that's a great, great question. So, first and foremost, what's been effective for us, like when we're working with clients, because we don't just do legacy documentaries. Our agency side of things, we do a lot of training videos, more corporate videos, advertisements and whatnot and one thing that we're really big on is exploring the history of the organization and why it was founded. What's the big, why, what's the intrinsic motivation behind it. We found that that really helps build trust in an audience, whether they be employees or whether they be clients, whatever that might be. We like to paint the subject as having experienced what those other people experience or are experiencing Like, for example, we worked with a client once who he was a wealth management. He owned a wealth management company and the reason he got into that was because his sister got taken advantage of by somebody pretty severely, and so that led him to pursue a career as a wealth management advisor, and so we did some videos for this gentleman and we really explored that backstory and we found that it helped his client. His client intake went up after that because people started to view him more as trustworthy because he experienced the problems that they've experienced in some circumstances. So it builds that relatability and trust.

Speaker 2: 19:07

I also feel like exploring conflict like I mentioned, adversity helps build trust because everybody, regardless of your background, they'll experience adversity one way or another. So positioning that in a story and then positioning yourself as a solution to that conflict, it really helps build trust and relatability as well. Um, I don't know stories, just that they're, they're very, they're very powerful. I feel like if you control the media, you control the masses in a way. So it's all about how you shape the story and there's different storytelling frameworks that we've utilized throughout the years too that have been tested and proven and increases engagement and viewer retention and whatnot. But yeah, I know I'm kind of rambling at this point. I have so much going on in my head it's hard to articulate it at the moment.

Speaker 1: 20:01

It's a broad I mean, it's such a broad topic, right, and, like you know, I think what's fascinating about this concept in general is that you know, so much of the way that we perceive and interact with the world is related to the stories that we are told and the stories that we tell ourselves, right?

Speaker 1: 20:27

And so there is so much, there's so much power in being able to kind of harness this creative process in a way that helps us achieve our goals. And it's not necessarily like I think some people might hear that and be like well, that sounds kind of like like shady, but the reality is that's, that's how we interact with the world, right, like like, people that can tell stories effectively are the ones that are highly successful. Um and so, so, as, as you think about, like crafting a, a crafting a story, and thinking about that in the context of, okay, what goal am I trying to accomplish? What does your process look like? How do you creatively take all these big ideas that are in your head as just a generally creative person, and how do you figure out, okay, where do I start? What do I chase Like, what is this idea? That's going to be something pretty special.

Speaker 2: 21:26

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 21:27

So first and foremost, I really analyze the target audience, like who's going to be viewing this story and then, once we understand the target audience, then we craft the story with that in mind. We figure out the overall objective. Is this a story that is trying to pull at people's heartstrings to get them to then take a specific action, or is this something that you're trying to convert, something so get somebody to make a sale, or whatever it is, or is it something that people just want to watch and relish in and feel sentimental? So, first and foremost, you figure out the target audience. Then from there, we figure out what's the best way to actually tell the story, what's the mood that we need to create, because that can vary a lot too. Is this going to be overly sentimental? Is it going to be more informative? We figure out the underlying mood of the story. From that point on, we figure out who are going to be the mouthpieces. So, like I mentioned earlier, we have those seven storytelling pillars that serve as our guidelines and then we figure out, okay, who can speak on behalf of each pillar. That will help drive the story forward.

Speaker 2: 22:33

Stories are very action driven. They have to, whatever type of story you're trying to tell. The overall goal is to get from point a to point b to point c to eventually the conclusion. So you got to always keep that in mind. What drives a story forward and what's extraneous and doesn't really add any value. So we identify the mouthpieces for the story and then I think another big part of it as well that's been big for us is the aesthetic.

Speaker 2: 22:57

So like shoot locations, we feel like where we're actually filming becomes a character in itself. You know that can. That can really make or break a film in a lot of ways, or a video, whatever it is. You want to. You want the location to help characterize the story as well. Um, so that's really big for us.

Speaker 2: 23:15

We take a lot of time in planning that out, um, and then I mean obviously the editing. That's a whole. That's really big for us. We take a lot of time in planning that out. And then I mean obviously the editing. That's a whole other animal. Once we've gathered everything and a lot of the story can be shaped in post-production too. I mean that's really where a lot of the work comes in for us. You have to collaborate a lot with your team. We have a whole team of editors, awesome editors that work with us, and so just collaborating that that that being able to accept ideas and take input I think that's something that was really big for us when my brother and I first started, because it was just the two of us and now we have a team of 13. So learning how to collaborate as well and come together with a common, common goal to make the best out of it yeah.

Speaker 1: 24:01

Absolutely so I'm curious. So you mentioned this and I and forgive me, I am not an expert in this, in this arena you mentioned that there's like some like kind of standard storytelling structures and you know, like like one of them that I think we commonly hear about, it's like the like the hero's journey's journey so do you have like?

Speaker 1: 24:26

is it like a, like a protocol that you walk through to kind of figure out how to like, how to structure this thing, or like like? How do you think through that? I'm curious if there's like a framework you use, or or is it more like open-ended and it's just like whatever.

Speaker 2: 24:39

Yeah, so the frameworks they give us um, they give us general guidelines, like I'll give you an example. We use one framework called the man in the hole and we have these really cool little pip deck cards where there's like 50 different frameworks that we can pull from any time and depending on the use case of the video. But testimonial videos, for example, case study videos, those give companies a lot of social proof. There's studies that show that by having case study videos people are more willing to buy from you, just on the word of a complete, stranger, really cool process there. But we use this framework called man in the hole, which it takes the viewer through a journey by watching a person in a case study video talk about their problems, their prior problems. Then they either got a service or they purchased a product that solved their problem. So they were in a hole. Then they went from point A to point B, they purchased the product or service and then now their life is so much better because of it. This product completely changed their lives.

Speaker 2: 25:40

So that's just one example of a simple to understand storytelling framework that we've utilized. And then, like I mentioned, our pillars are really what help us out a lot on the documentary side of things, those seven storytelling pillars the history, passion, process, obstacles, successes, impact and future. Because at first, when we were doing all these type of documentaries, we had no process. We were literally just running and gunning and shooting and filming anything we could and just hoping we can create something in post-production with it. But I think, as a filmmaker, as a creator, having a process that you can rely on is extremely helpful. Yeah, and I think you know it's, it's.

Speaker 1: 26:27

I think it's hard for especially for like a non, maybe like a non-creative or somebody who's who's just not used to this type of of thinking to have some sort of like a, like a, like a process, like a platform right, like like um, and and then you can think about it. But you know, I'm also curious, you know, because it's we're always kind of telling some level of story. So, you know, I have to believe there's probably also some use case or some applicability where, even if you're doing a social media post or it's, you know you're doing like something that's more like a, like a PR type of a thing, you're still you're still telling a story and there still needs to be some level of a format when you're telling it. Am I, am I kind of on the right track here?

Speaker 2: 27:13

Yeah, for sure, we, we actually. We have social videos as one of our offers in our agency, because social videos have become just that's the new norm. I mean, so many companies utilize those. Now, people's attention spans are pretty rough these days Right right.

Speaker 2: 27:30

They've taken off in the last five years especially, but they have to have some intention behind it. Right, we've kind of dove into that in terms of the different, I guess, mechanics to making a cool social video. Number one is first, and making a cool social video Number one is, like the first and foremost, hooking people. You know what are you doing, why should somebody care? And so the first three seconds of the social video are so important, and so normally that is somebody asking a question to where it feels like you're speaking to your audience directly. Another one would be an alarming, maybe controversial, statement. If you're doing X, y and Z, stop now. This will kill you. That's an exaggeration, but you get my point there as a hook.

Speaker 2: 28:15

So the first three seconds are extremely important. And then you want to provide some credibility. Who are you? Why should somebody take the time to listen to you? Provide some accolades, provide a little bit of context as to who you are, and then you dive in a little bit more maybe to a specific problem that you know that people are facing in your target audience, and then from there you tease out some information.

Speaker 2: 28:35

You don't want to give too much information to where people get confused, but you want to tease just enough to where your audience feels like you know what you're talking about. So I'm giving more of a value-driven type of video. There's more visual types of social videos, but we've seen that value-driven videos have really helped position companies in a place of authority, to where they've been able to generate leads and they've been able to build their brand around social content. So social videos are extremely powerful and are only becoming more powerful, and especially with AI. These days people really don't need to go to professional video agencies as much anymore, because AI has made a lot of video production a lot more accessible for people who don't have much of a background in it.

Speaker 1: 29:21

Yeah, yeah. So it's interesting you mentioned that and you know, in the context of what we're talking about here, you know, I'll give the listeners a really like like actual proof point. We started doing just social media posts and stories about our employees, just like highlighting employees, highlighting employees, and they are outperforming like every other social media post ever, because people care, like it's like oh, this is a person and this is their story, and it's it's like so much more engaging and there's, you know, and and it's it's so like this type of thinking around, not just legacy, but but telling a story about somebody else, tying that into the values that your company supports, tying that all together. That's actually in my mind, that's how you stand out when there's so much noise out there.

Speaker 2: 30:16

Right, it's currency. I mean essentially it's currency. Like I said earlier, it's like when you highlight the stories of individuals, you know people who are actually on the ground doing the thing. It just makes you more relatable. Stories are such a universal language, if you actually take the time to think about it. So much of our knowledge about the world, our beliefs, were first introduced to us in one way, shape or form in a story or a metaphor or an analogy or an anecdote.

Speaker 2: 30:46

Um, regardless of your, your cultural, your culture, your ethnicity, your gender, whatever it might be like, stories connect us all around the world. Um, they're kind of like almost the oldest form of communication language. You go back to the, the cave, the cave days. You know, you see the stories on the wall. There was no writing, but there were stories in the form of pictures and, yeah, that's just always fascinated me.

Speaker 2: 31:11

Like, the best way you can get information across is to tell it in the form of a story. Again, here I'm bringing up my nerdy side, but studies have proven that if you are wanting to somebody, if you're wanting your audience to remember maybe statistics, for example, don't just blatantly say to them the statistic. Tell it in the form of a story, because that will increase their ability to retain that information. You know stories that you can, it's all creative and stuff, but there really is like a. It's almost like a science in a way. It's a creative science but it's fascinating to me. I just kind of fell in love. Way it's a creative science, but it's it's. It's fascinating to me. I just kind of fell in love with it absolutely.

Speaker 1: 31:48

I well, I I'm right there with you and I think you know we evolved to think in this way. Right, like this is like because stories and, and you know, oral communication was, was around long before writing. You know music and dancing and these sorts of things were around before language. Yeah, you know the drawing and art, like this is how our brains developed. Yeah, like like way back in you know, caveman days. So so you know, and we haven't changed that much like biologically right, like we're still kind of we act like we're more of all, but we're still kind of the same, I agree.

Speaker 2: 32:32

I agree. Yeah, it's powerful. Like I said, it's just like whoever controls the story controls the narrative. Oh, I like that. You see it in the news man. You see media outlets, regardless of what side of the spectrum you're on, they're always trying to paint a picture through a story. It's all about storytelling. Whoever can tell the most powerful story is always going to be one step ahead. Um, it could almost be dangerous. You know like absolutely all about why you're trying to wield it and the effects you're trying to get out of the story. I think stories are also the best tool to evoke thoughts about things, like thinking about things differently, and that I think originally. That's why I fell in love with movies and filmmaking as a kid, because it just would inspire different ways of thinking for me and different ideas.

Speaker 1: 33:20

Yeah, I love it. I love it All, right. Well, we are. We are just ending our available time together and I'm fascinated to hear your response to the flash round questions. Are you ready? Sure?

Speaker 2: 33:41

All right. Question number one answers we need to rebel. One against our own self-doubt. I feel like self-doubt in people is so common, um, and it holds us back from truly doing what we want or what we envisioned for ourselves. That was huge for my brother and I when we first got started, we had no background in it. But once we actually got out of that self-doubt and started doing it, that's what builds momentum, um, so don't be afraid to take the leap. And number two we momentum, so don't be afraid to take the leap. And number two we need to rebel against societal expectations. You know you don't have to fit yourself in a box if it doesn't make sense to you personally. Yeah, there's different ways to to approach life. So I just feel like oftentimes people work themselves into boxes and they just remain in them, even though it's not truly making them happy on an intrinsic level. So I feel like that's that's huge for me personally absolutely all right.

Speaker 1: 34:33

Question number two who should we be listening to?

Speaker 2: 34:38

well, I think we should be listening to people who we know, at the end of the day, see us as people first, and love us for who we are and truly want the betterment of us. Um, that's, I guess, more on a human level. You know, like the people who truly have your best interests in mind. You know so many people out there these days, in a business setting or a personal setting too, that they always, always have an angle. They're always trying to set the frame. They're trying to use you as a means to an end. So I think it's important to find that tribe that you know truly supports you, and lean into their advice and truly listen to them. I also think you need to listen to yourself as well. What's really down there, what's inside of you, that keeps pestering you? Listen to yourself. I feel like we are rational creatures, we're rational beings, but at the same time, there's something about listening to your gut as well and then being mindful of that. So, yeah, I guess that's my answer to that question.

Speaker 1: 35:41

Yeah, I couldn't agree more, I think, at the heart of it, I think we try to shut ourselves off from listening to our intuitive understanding of the world, sometimes right. It's like where we started this conversation, like following that creative spark or ignoring that creative spark, right Like trust yourself.

Speaker 2: 36:05

We evolved with those survival instincts that are still with us today. We're not running around on the planes anymore with spears and stuff, but there is just that instinctual gut feeling that I think is a survival mechanism for us now.

Speaker 1: 36:20

Absolutely, absolutely. All right, last question here, so really great conversation. How can our listeners connect with you and learn more?

Speaker 2: 36:28

Yeah, you can reach out on our website, dickensbrotherscom, on our agency. If you're more interested in advertisements, recruitment videos, those types of video content, then you can find us at PlatinumPeakcom. That's our agency, platinumpeakcom, that's our agency. And then you can always feel free to reach out to me too personally at my email, which is ericsson, at platinumpeakcom.

Speaker 1: 36:49

Peak is with two E's, so yeah don't hesitate to reach out if you want to chat. Absolutely, we'll have all that information in the show notes. So open up your podcast player, click on in. Really appreciate the time here today, erickson. This has just been a wonderful conversation, a little bit thought-provoking in my mind and hopefully just something that is helping all of our listeners kind of expand the way that they think about this. So appreciate your time and have a great rest of your day. Awesome. Thank you, kyle. All right, that does it for the Rebel HR podcast. Big thank you to our guests. Hr podcast Big thank you to our guests. Follow us on Facebook at rebel HR podcast, twitter at rebel HR guy, or see our website at rebel human resourcescom. The views and opinions expressed by rebel HR podcast are those of the authors and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of any of the organizations that we represent. No animals were harmed during the filming of this podcast. Baby.