Speaker 1: 0:00

What we have found with organizations where many people have either read the book or attended our boot camps is there's some pretty simple language that people pick up on and they use with each other all the time. When people have these common words or languages that trigger a meta level, it takes the focus off the person as being wrong or guilty or less than or bad for being below the line, and instead it's like no, you've just been completely hijacked neurophysiologically, but we can undo that and you can undo that.

Speaker 2: 0:31

This is the Rebel HR podcast, the podcast where we talk to HR innovators about all things people, leadership. If you're looking for places to find, about new ways to think about the world of work, this is the podcast for you. Please subscribe to your favorite podcast listening platform today and leave us a review. Rebel on HR. Rebels Rebel HR listeners. Thanks for joining us this week. I'm really excited for the conversation.

Speaker 2: 0:59

This is all about conversations, which is basically HR's job, so I'm really excited to have the conversation today with Jackie Stavros and Sherry Torres. They have written a book and released a second edition called Conversations Worth Having using appreciative inquiry to fuel productive and meaningful engagement. Jackie is a professor at the College of Business and IT, lawrence Technological University and Appreciative Inquiry Advisor at the David L Cooper Rider Center for Appreciative Inquiry. She has more than 30 years of leadership, strategic planning and change management experience. Sherry is CEO and lead catalyst of Collaborative by Design, a consulting firm that helps organizations improve performance, retain talent and transform communication and culture, with more than 35 years of leadership, teamwork, strategic planning and culture transformation experience. Thanks for joining us this week.

Speaker 1: 1:59

Thank you so much, thank you.

Speaker 2: 2:02

Well, I'm really excited to start to dig in here, and you know, I think, what a perfect topic conversations worth having which is, you know, basically what we do all day long is have some sort of conversation. So making sure that they are conversations that we should be having or are worth having seems like a pretty interesting topic for us here at Rebel Human Resources. So why don't we start off? I'd just like to understand what prompted the interest in Conversations Worth Having.

Speaker 1: 2:45

Jackie and I. We've known each other for quite a while over 20 years and we wrote our first book together, Dynamic Relationships, back in 2005, with a goal of bringing appreciative inquiry to the general public, so they could use that approach to life, that approach to life, and we decided to do an update 10 years later and realized that our thinking had completely changed, and so we wrote a completely different book and we started out with a focus on relationships, because that is really at the core of everything we do also. But working with our editor at Barrett Kohler, who kept pushing back on us to simplify it, simplified it. We really want people to do it. It has to be simple. We finally realized oh, this is about our conversations. How can we do our conversations so they create the kinds of relationships and practices so that we can live our best lives and be successful?

Speaker 3: 3:51

Yeah, I would just add to that that, if you're listening, think about how much of your awaking hours you are having a conversation with yourself, with others, whether it's on media platforms, emails, social media. We get people to say anywhere from 90 to 110% of the time they're having conversations.

Speaker 2: 4:15

Absolutely, you know, I think about that. You know conversation in general. You know and I said this before we hit record you know that's just what we do. You know, in human resources, we're all about, you know, we're all about the people right, and in order to impact and influence people, you have conversations with them, but I feel like so often we get hung up on. You know the tool that we use to have a conversation. So is it, you know, is it email? Is it virtual? Is it video? Is it? Is it phone call? Is it? You know, face to face, um, as opposed to the, the content or the, you know the conversations that we actually need to be having. So, so, as you, as you approach the book, and as you, you know, started to dig into uh, maybe a little bit what sounds like a mindset shift and started to focus on this where do we start? By figuring out, where should my energy, where should my conversations be focused, and how do I prioritize the conversations that are worth having versus, maybe, those that aren't?

Speaker 3: 5:29

So where do you start? That's a great question and that's what brought us to the second edition of the book is it's called Tuning In and if you would, just you know, if you just learn to tune in, which is, you know, pause, take a deep breath and get curious and ask yourself before which of those conversations, where am I? And imagine you had this imaginary line, and above the line is appreciative, you're in a space where I value you, I value the situation, even if it's a difficult person or a difficult situation. But you want to be coming from above the line, which are affirmative conversations, conversations worth having. And if you're below the line, you're in that depreciative, that protect mode and your conversations are going to be maybe, perhaps critical or destructive. And you're below the line and you don't want to be entering conversations from below the line. So just the technique of pausing, taking a deep breath and getting curious and ask yourself where am I?

Speaker 2: 7:06

Hmm, yeah, my head is racing and you, we've got something coming at us seemingly every week. What tactics can we use to be aware of that line and to really inform how we approach making sure that we are having conversations worth having?

Speaker 1: 7:31

I think they're kind of twofold recognize that our conversations and the words that we use are actually deeply influential and they have an impact on our neurophysiology when we say them and the neurophysiology of people that hear them. And we can either throw somebody into a state of protect um, the defenses come up and, um, if people are feeling criticized or like they might be like thrown out of the group, which, um, from a uh, a conditioning point of view, means we think we're going to die, that what happens just in our nervous system is the sympathetic nervous system kicks in. We get a dump of cortisol, adrenaline, testosterone, epinephrine dumped into our systems and we move into a place of fight or flight. When we're in that place, we can't access higher order thinking, we can't access our emotional intelligence, our centers of empathy, we can't access creativity, because all we're worried about even our vision gets tunnel vision. And so, if we want the best out of one another, the way we engage with each other is critical.

Speaker 1: 9:18

And when we have conversations, as Jackie was mentioning, above the line, whether where we are valuing others or we are adding value through our questions and our comments, we actually create a sense of safety, and psychological safety is really big in the workplace these days and the reason is that when we feel psychologically safe, we've got a whole different set of neurotransmitters dumping into our nervous system. Parasympathetic nervous system goes into effect. We relax, our brain opens up, we have access to the prefrontal cortex, to the ability to connect, to have empathy, to access emotional intelligence. Those are all the things we want people to have in our organizations If we want innovation and creativity and engagement and connection. We've got to recognize that we have an immense amount of power in making that possible, just by the way we engage with people using words the way we engage with people using words, absolutely you know.

Speaker 2: 10:30

I don't know if I can pinpoint the exact moment where I figured that out, but I remember, you know, vividly, early in my HR career, that you know the words, the selection of words, the timing of words, the attempt to you know, engage somebody in a conversation at the wrong time made a huge impact on the outcome. And I remember at one point I went home to my wife and it was a rough day and I was like I kind of had a light bulb moment where I was like wow, and I realized that just a couple of the words that were misinterpreted really screwed things up today and I spent most of my day unpacking the words that were misinterpreted to the people that misinterpreted them. And then you know, and it's it. Um, you know whether that was because I was below the line or that person was, you know, was not ready to hear it. Either way it was.

Speaker 2: 11:32

It was a situation of, of ignorance, of of not thinking through how will this be perceived? How? How is this timing going to? How is this timing going to occur? And the funny thing was the entire context of that day was I was trying to be efficient. I was trying to get things done quickly. Yes, so I'm just going to say this. And then it blew up in my face and made me spend all day dealing with it. So I'm walking through all the things I've done wrong now. So, as we approach these types of things, especially in HR, psychological safety is not strong. How do we work through that and how do we kind of, you know, tiptoe into those conversations? Ultimately, to you know, try to resolve the situation?

Speaker 3: 12:38

That's a great question, kyle. You know, one thing comes to my mind, because we're all going to fall below the line. We're humans and we talk about this in the book, but when you know you're below the line, you can feel it. If you have a smartwatch on, it'll tell you by your blood pressure or your heart rate, and when you pause, breathe and get curious, you can ask the other person let's do this over. It's called a do over, and when you begin to go above the line and we had mentioned appreciative inquiry appreciative inquiry is asking what would you like more?

Speaker 3: 13:15

What would you like to see happen? What is it you'd like to talk about? Because people usually come in with their problems, what they don't like, what they don't want to talk about, like to talk about because people usually come in with their problems what they don't like, what they don't want to talk about. And that's where you need to, through your questions as one of the practices, generative questions or framing really begin to talk about. What would you like to see happen? What would you like to talk about today? What do you want to see more of?

Speaker 2: 13:40

So when you're asking those types of questions, is that kind of flipping the switch in the brain to go away from kind of that I don't know what the right word is for it like almost that animalistic fight or flight, you know, kind of aggressiveness, into kind of the higher level self kind of the higher level self.

Speaker 3: 14:05

Yes, yes, and that's where the science is behind it, because a generative question can create that frame, that positive frame, by just asking the questions. And sometimes you have to ask the same question three times, because the person's in such a disconnect, protect mode that you know how do you see it and they may give you a funny look let's talk about what you'd like. And so sometimes asking a generative, the same generative question two or three times, they begin to relax, they begin to open up and they want to engage in a conversation worth having with you.

Speaker 1: 14:36

And sometimes they just want to be heard first, and so asking the question that says, you know, tell me what's going on, what's what is happening, how's it impacting your ability to work, and then moving to Okay, what do you need or what would you like to have happen, can be highly effective. Often, being seen and heard is enough to shift somebody to being ready to move to something else, as opposed to being dismissed or stopped.

Speaker 2: 15:11

Absolutely. I think you know that's a really powerful tool, and don't ask me where I heard this, but you know. The question I like to ask is so what does good look like for you? You know, or you know something along those lines, right, and a lot of times you're like, well, I don't ask me where I, where I heard this, but you know. The question I like to ask is so what does good look like for you? You know, or or you know something along those lines, right, and a lot of times you're like, well, I don't, I don't know, I, you know, I just, I'm just you're supposed to tell me what you know, you're supposed to tell me how to fix, but it's, you know. A lot of times, you know I have also learned this through. You know trial and error. That you know.

Speaker 2: 15:42

I assume that I understand what somebody actually wants me to do and I'm just flat out wrong, and you know, and sometimes I'm unequipped to even help them with that, and it's really about making sure they're connected to the right resources that can actually help them.

Speaker 2: 15:59

So one of the things I wanted to ask and I'm sure my listeners are probably feeling this, especially as we go through we're recording this. In January there's a COVID spike, there's all sorts of questions around work from home, there's wage inflation, like there's all sorts of things coming at HR right now. I guarantee you that many of us are dealing with people who just want to vent and a lot of times HR's office can kind of turn into what I call. It's like the school counselor right, where you just you walk into the office and people just kind of sit down and they just start to complain. And while I want to help people have good relationships and connections at work and I think most HR people are fairly empathetic and want to help people solve their problems A lot of times those conversations are draining and really don't resolve much. So as, as we're dealing with those types of interactions or maybe maybe that's what you know people assume HR should be how can we take those types of interactions and make them conversations worth having?

Speaker 1: 17:10

So I think one of the and this is one of the practices from our book the first one Jackie spoke about a little bit was generative questions. The second one is using a positive frame. Um, the second one is using a positive frame and so listening long enough to the person who's venting to get an idea of what the nature of the problem is that they're wanting to vent about, and perhaps even asking questions to get it, to make sure it's clear, and, and you know, putting yourself in the place instead of in like, oh, here, here they come again, they're going to vent. That puts you below the line. And now both of you are below the line to move into that space of how can I support this person in helping to solve their own problem or help them to get clear on what it is that they want. So flip it around in your own mind to a challenge to create help the person, create a positive frame for what they are wanting.

Speaker 1: 18:14

And then to ask enough questions of to get clear on what the problem, the nature of the problem is, then flip it to the positive opposite. So if somebody comes in um venting about, uh, their boss, for example, never have.

Speaker 2: 18:34

They don't listen.

Speaker 1: 18:35

Yeah, they don't listen to me, they don't care about who I am. Blah, blah, blah, blah. And take you know, take notes, write that down. If you have a whiteboard, write it up there so the person can actually see the problem they're describing. And when you've got it all up there, to finally say, okay, so this is what the problem is right, and get them to say, yes, that's it. Now they feel heard.

Speaker 1: 19:00

And you could flip it to the positive opposite. Say, okay, if the positive opposite of that were true, if your boss listened to you and truly valued you, and write all that up in the second column. If that were true, what would be the outcome for you? What would that be like? What would your work environment be like? What would your relationship be like? And in that third column then write down that positive frame.

Speaker 1: 19:30

This is where the person is wanting to go. They want a good relationship, they want to be heard and valued, and then you can be in a conversation with them around. You know, even asking this is a standard appreciative inquiry question. Has there ever been a time when you have felt valued by your boss and your boss listened to you? Oh yeah, about nine months ago, when. And then they describe it? What? What were the conditions that made that possible? Would you value about yourself and your boss? How can you and your boss begin to recreate those things? And then do you want to try this on your own? How could you have a conversation with your boss about that? Do you want to have a conversation with me and your boss and you? But now you've listened, they've vented, but they're now moving in a different direction.

Speaker 2: 20:28

That's great advice. I'm thinking, geez, I don't have a whiteboard. But putting that visual question on that whiteboard and then confronting that question as opposed to letting the meandering venting occur, and then you know what happened seven years ago, I mean, I'm still not over it. It's like, okay, all right, there's a statute of limitations at a certain point, right.

Speaker 3: 20:53

Seven years there is yes, yeah.

Speaker 2: 20:55

So you know, it's really an interesting technique and I can see how that could prompt some actual solutions. What about a situation where the person won't get there? Get there, like, like it's just they're so far below that line that they truly are in a, in a really dark place, or there's a, um, you know, there there's maybe a point where there's there's not going to be a productive conversation. You know, should we just sit there until it ends? Should we, you know, end the conversation? What kind of tactics do you recommend for those types of you know situations?

Speaker 4: 21:51

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Speaker 1: 22:40

There's one suggestion that I would make, and especially if it's already been going on if you've tried to flip it, they won't flip, they're just stuck down below just for a minute and let's take a look at what's going on at kind of the meta level for you right now in terms of your ability to access your own creative potential and your own best self, in terms of being able even to identify what is it that I want. And I would bump up to the meta level of saying here's what's going on neurophysiologically, as you keep going over this and over this and you're going to move yourself further and further and further away from the ability for you to find any answers. And if that's what you want to keep doing, then go for it. But if you want out of that cycle so that you can reach your own full potential, then I am delighted to help you work through that. But we've got to get some different neurotransmitters going, so it takes the focus off. You're wrong or you're. You know. The reason you're so far down below the line is because you've had this huge dump of cortisol and testosterone and it's flooded your system and we can switch that.

Speaker 1: 24:14

And what we have found with organizations, where many people have either read the book or attended our boot camps, is there's some pretty simple language that people pick up on and they use with each other all the time, like, oh my goodness, I am so far below the line. What can I do to help you get above the line? Or wait a minute, wait, let's stop for a minute. Let's just name what are we dealing with. What's the issue here? Let's name it. What are we dealing with? What's the issue here? Let's name it. And so, when people have these common words or languages that trigger a meta level, it takes the focus off the person as being wrong or guilty or less than or bad for being below the line, and instead it's like no, you've just been completely hijacked neurophysiologically, but we can undo that, and you can undo that.

Speaker 3: 25:06

And adding to what Sherry said is sometimes it's things you are unaware of. It could be the person's not sleeping enough, they're not hydrated enough. There can be physiological things that have put you below the line before words even put you below the line and you know. Maybe they need a mental health day. Maybe you know it's simple as drinking more water. Certain things in your body pull you below the line before you've entered a conversation.

Speaker 2: 25:34

Or as my kids might say you know, dad needs to eat.

Speaker 3: 25:37

Yes, your blood sugar levels up yeah.

Speaker 1: 25:40

Wait. Let me just add one other thing to that, because what that triggered for me is, when somebody keeps going on and on like that, it might be the time to just pause and say what's really going on for you, because it may have nothing to do with the fact that they're railing up here, but their partner is threatening to leave them, or you know, yeah, yeah. Or they're overwhelmed because of COVID and filled with anxiety, and or they've decided this isn't the place for me to go and I don't know where else to go.

Speaker 2: 26:17

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Speaker 2: 27:17

Those are all wonderful points and I'm reflecting on, you know, interactions that I've had over the last, especially over the last few years. There's a lot of that emotion, you know, and I feel like you know, pick a topic right. If you just go to pick a news line, you know a headline news and you know you're gonna. You're gonna find something where somebody's below the line or something's going on that's creating some of that external stress that could be trickling into the workplace. But one of the things I'm continuing to, I'm picking up on this and, as I've mentioned, I wouldn't consider myself the best at all of these things, but I am hearing that one of the common themes here is it's not about necessarily saying the right thing, it's about listening and responding to what somebody needs in that moment. Am I on the right track here?

Speaker 3: 28:09

Spot on. And Kyle, you mentioned earlier, when you find yourself assuming, go to asking. So when you are assuming something about somebody or something, just start to ask. And if you ask these generative questions that are leaning in and you really care and they're open-ended, you're going to learn more about the other person.

Speaker 2: 28:34

Absolutely yeah, and I think you know we get caught in, and I think that's not just HR. The corporate world gets caught up in thinking, well, what's the right thing to say, or what? You know, how do we, how do we spin this correctly? You know and and and, as opposed to actually just just taking a pause and listening and and responding with authenticity and and and a little bit. You know just humanity, right? I mean you know meeting people where they're at, because if you don't do that, I mean they'll pick up on it, right.

Speaker 1: 29:12

Yeah, yeah, just showing that you care. I mean, if you start there about I, I'm, I care, and if you don't know what to say, just saying, say that you know. I don't know what to say and I want to support you. How can I?

Speaker 3: 29:33

What can I do? Yeah, genuine connection and also, sherry's, really modeling. And I hear it in your voice too, kyle Tone and direction you want. You know, people know when you come at them with a critical tone that they can't even listen to what you're saying. But they know, just the tone of your voice shuts them down, even if you're trying to help. So having a tone that is much more appreciative and calming when you're in a difficult situation is going to begin to open up and help that person connect to you.

Speaker 2: 30:00

It's going to begin to open up and help that person connect to you. Yeah, it's funny you mentioned that because you know, one of the challenges I think that I faced early in my career was I was trying to be HR. You know, I was trying to be what I thought HR should be, or I was trying to be what I thought a business leader or a manager should be, and what that did is it prompted me to essentially flip a switch and become just pure logic, like binary, like, you know, no emotion. How can I help you? You know, do this, do that. You should do this. You should do that. This is the policy. You should do this. This is the rule. You should do that. This person's you superior. You need to go to them first. You know those kinds of like that level of thinking, and it took me a number of years to realize that the connection, the humanity, the actual, the richness of the conversation, the richness of the relationship matters a whole lot more than the content of you reading from a handbook.

Speaker 1: 31:07

Absolutely.

Speaker 2: 31:08

So absolutely, just just, wonderful content and, I think, something that that we can all, can all you know, learn from. And and you know, I would just ask, you know, my listeners, to think about. You know, reflect on those times where where you've had a bad interaction and ask yourself was I above or below the line in that interaction? And the next time you start to have a bad interaction, ask yourself where is that line right now?

Speaker 1: 31:34

And also ask either what story did I make up about the other person and could a different story have explained the same facts? And how do I know what the real story was, if I don't ask questions?

Speaker 2: 31:52

Absolutely.

Speaker 2: 31:55

I mean, I love stories, you know, and I'm really good at creating that picture in my head about why this person is mad, or what this person should do or what happened in that situation, without actually even understanding what actually happened.

Speaker 2: 32:11

And when you confront that, you realize, oh, this is just a bias, like this is, I'm just reacting because of something that happened this way, however many years ago, or in a similar situation, et cetera. So one of the things I want to talk about a little bit as it relates to conversations is the stories that we tell ourselves and believe coming into the workplace. And what I'm really talking about is some of the polarization that we see in our society today, where somebody believes this about masks, somebody believes this about vaccines, somebody believes this about the president, somebody believes this about the past president, and it's just there's a lot of that kind of noise that has trickled into the workplace certainly has not made our job any easier. So, as we're confronting people who are believing their version of a story and there's maybe some conflict or some challenges in the workplace as it relates to those types of conversations, how can we help to mediate that or kind of try to reduce some of that polarization in the workplace through conversations.

Speaker 1: 33:28

Oh boy, that is a big question, I think, when being in the workplace under COVID scenarios can raise all sorts of anxieties for people, no matter what side of anything you're on.

Speaker 1: 33:57

I think again being able to have conversations that move away from people's belief systems and the strengths that they bring to the workplace.

Speaker 1: 34:12

How do we work together?

Speaker 1: 34:14

There's a colleague of ours who's a jazz musician.

Speaker 1: 34:17

A colleague of ours who's a jazz musician, and when he talks about bringing these, the practices, into everyday living in an organization, he equates it to improvisational jazz and he says I don't have to like every jazz musician, I just have to be able to trust that they know how to play their notes, to riff when everybody riffs, that they will be part of the thing we are trying to do together.

Speaker 1: 34:58

And if they're an excellent musician, I don't care whether I like them or not or ever hang out outside the office, but I can love performing with them because they're really good at what they do. And so, perhaps, focusing on what are the strengths each person brings to the team and how do we access that in the best ways that we can, being human with each other and let the stuff that we're polarized about, um, fall away, that might be one, one approach, and I guess it also depends on whether somebody wants to keep harping on it and they want. Um, you know there's a lot of juice that comes out of stirring the pot and the pot gets stirred every day by the media.

Speaker 3: 35:50

I would add to what Sherry's saying. So we're talking about asking these generative questions. Make room for diverse and different perspectives. You know how do you see it. Why do you see it that way? It can surface new knowledge in it. Where are you getting your information, your knowledge? So we're really having a conversation because we're polarized. But why are we this way? Where are you getting your information? And just beginning to share it, even though we may still, at the end of the conversation, go back to I'm not going to wear a mask and I am going to wear a mask, especially if there's no policy in the workplace about when you wear a mask or don't wear a mask, then you're kind of figuring it out.

Speaker 2: 36:36

Yeah, it's a. It's a. It's definitely a tough one. It's something that you know. There's certainly been division in the workplace.

Speaker 2: 36:44

I've had, you know, I've had different levels of interactions over the years. I don't know that it's necessarily anything new. It certainly seems more pronounced. Um, you know just, and I think you know my, my theory, there is it's everybody's under duress right now and there's so much stress in people's lives and their personal lives that it's kind of trickling into the workplace. And I'll be honest, one of the challenges that we've had is politics at work. It's always kind of been one of those things where, you know, we just don't talk about that stuff at work, Right, you know, and that's that's kind of the, the school of thought that I was, I was certainly raised in, but it's almost impossible not to have that at work at this point, because if create our own stories in our heads about what somebody believes or what they think and why, it's a lot harder to actually engage them in a conversation that could potentially prompt some conflict. So in a conversation worth having, is conflict inevitable? Is that going to happen?

Speaker 3: 38:05

You know I'm going to give a very specific example, if I may. You know I work at a university and there's a policy of when students can come to class and go on Zoom and think about it at work. When you can have a virtual meeting or come to work and the policy says if you go through the dean of student services and you have COVID or you're in quarantine, you can use Zoom. And the conflict is well, what if I can't get tested and I'm not feeling well? Can I come in virtually and I haven't been able to get to the? You know things start creeping up because this is the first time we've had a policy like this. So I think you have to be willing to, as a manager, be a little bit flexible with new policies that are written and we haven't fully experienced them. So, with me and my students, I come up with the sub policy that you can. I will put you on Zoom, promise that you will go to the Dean of Student Services, but I want you to come and learn. That's my goal and I don't want you to take advantage of it.

Speaker 3: 39:06

Same thing in the workplace Somebody wants to stay at home versus coming in, but they haven't gotten their COVID test or whatever, is beginning to trust your employees to say all right, what we really need is you in this meeting. Let's get you on the platform and then we will deal with some of the surrounding issues around that, because it's this very new territory for everybody in the world. Dealing with the pandemic and think about framing. What do we really want to happen here?

Speaker 2: 39:37

Again, it's interesting because you went right back to what's the goal, and your goal was to make sure that they had a good learning environment. Right, and by defining that you know, it completely changes the narrative from we're trying to control what you do to here's the goal of what we're trying to do here, which is very different.

Speaker 3: 39:59

Yeah, yes. And the conflict occurs because I read a policy, some people will read it. Nope, you can't learn. I don't have anything from the dean, you're not in class and you're not learning. And another professor will say, well, no, I'll put you on Zoom, but then let's figure out how to follow this policy. Go to that framing of what do you? We really want you to be able to learn in a safe environment and having that conversation and building trust with the employee or the student, which removes the focus off the behavior and on to the desired outcome, and then people don't have to be, they don't have to be forced to be polarized because of that.

Speaker 1: 40:47

Instead of trying to convince people of something, it's finding out. How do we make this work with a variety of different viewpoints?

Speaker 2: 40:58

Absolutely. And where are we at, when is our line right when we try to do that? Yeah, revised second edition is you do have a technique to prime ourselves for a conversation with having. So can you expand upon the kind of what that technique looks like a little bit?

Speaker 1: 41:30

Sure, it's pretty simple, just like the two simple practices of generative questions and positive framing, priming yourself is to first pause, then to breathe and then to get curious. And the reason this simple technique works is that when you pause, it interrupts your pattern. So, whatever the pattern your reactive pattern is, when you pause it interrupts that. That can stop the flow of those stress hormones. When you take a deep breath, or two or three, it kicks in the parasympathetic nervous system, which further relaxes your nervous system and begins to open up your ability to access the higher order centers of the brain. And then, when you get curious, curiosity is a positive emotion and positive emotions throw you into the prefrontal lobe and the neocortex. And so now, just those three simple steps. Now you have shifted your brain chemistry to the point where you can be more open and connect with people and access your centers of empathy.

Speaker 3: 42:49

It's that simple.

Speaker 2: 42:52

Yeah, that's. You know it sounds simple, but it's not easy, right, right, Especially when you're already below the line. I'm gonna start using that now. So now, below the line, you guys should trademark that because, seriously, but, um, I mean, I, I, I.

Speaker 2: 43:12

What I love about this approach and what I think is really fascinating about this book is it's this isn't just the squishy HR stuff. You know, there there is hard science behind this and there's so much about the brain that we're still learning. But you know, if our job in an organization as leaders and human resources, and you know people who are trying to motivate others, you know, if we don't try to understand the brain and how people think and we're trying to move an organization and people, you know it would serve us well to understand why people's behavior is the way it is, or why the brain works the way it does. And you know, I mean to me that just makes perfect logical sense so that we can achieve those goals that we're trying to achieve. So I love that approach. So, okay, pause, breathe, curious, got it? It's only three words I think I can remember Perfect. Well, this has been just an absolutely wonderful conversation. I feel like we're just starting to warm up, but I'm going to leave that there and for all of our listeners, you know, I would encourage you to learn more.

Speaker 2: 44:22

Pick up the book, the second edition of Conversations Worth Having Using Appreciative Inquiry to Fuel Productive and Meaningful Engagement. Check it out. We'll have those links in the show notes. You can click right in there and check out the book. But there's so much more to learn and unpack With that. I want to shift gears and we're going to go into the flash round, so I'm going to ask both of you I will start with you, jackie what is your favorite people book?

Speaker 3: 44:54

My favorite people book. It's actually one that Sherry recommended to me and it's called the Four Agreements one that Sherry recommended to me and it's called the Four Agreements, and that's probably my go-to book, and if you ever read the Four Agreements and you don't get past the inside front cover, it gives you the Four Agreements.

Speaker 2: 45:12

Cliff notes. I like it All right, perfect, sherry. What is your favorite people book?

Speaker 1: 45:18

Mine changes depending upon what I've been most recently reading, and right now Adam Grant's book Think Again is my most favorite people book. I think if we were all to think again and then to think again, we would have much better relationships and we would be learning all the time.

Speaker 2: 45:39

Adam's got some great content, so absolutely, he does Check that out, all right. Question number two Jackie who should we be listening to?

Speaker 3: 45:48

Wow, this is kind of you know, now that my daughter just got a job at HR, I would say your podcast, innovation and HR. But if there's anything else, who should we be listening to? We've been listening to Procter Gamble, has this series called Widen the View, and I would definitely tell people, if you just Googled Widen the View and Procter &er and gamble, how important that is because you begin to make assumptions unconsciously and how you need to um, widen the widen the view. So that's top of my mind.

Speaker 2: 46:32

Second choice, after your podcast well, thank you, and um, the procter and gamble series. I actually had the honor of interviewing shelly mcnam, who is the chief diversity, equity and inclusion officer for Procter Gamble, and just absolutely wonderful things that they're doing over there. If you're looking for a you know kind of an organization to aspire to be, they're doing some wonderful things. So thank you for that, sherry. Who should we be listening to?

Speaker 1: 47:03

I think we should be listening to the young people and if they're not talking, we should be asking and listening to what they say.

Speaker 2: 47:17

I agree, I think. And, jackie, your daughter's going into HR, so you know, hats off to her for for jumping into the uh, tumultuous waters, but, um, I'm sure she's she's got such a different perspective than I did when I was going into it, and you know I can say that, um, you know, I learned so much from people who are coming out of college and you know I'll give you an example. We just hired a technical recruiter for one of our locations and she came out of school with such a zest for improving what we do and a completely different level of understanding, to the point that I'm like I don't even know what that is. I'm going to have to Google what you just said so that I can understand what you're talking about. And but there's so much there, there's so much to learn. So, yeah, don't stifle that. You know that's. That's kind of what we're all about here, right? Keep an open mind. So love that, all right. Last question, I'll open this up to both of you how can our listeners connect with you?

Speaker 3: 48:31

I would say you can start by going to. We've got a great website, cwhtoday, which stands for conversations with an S worth havingtoday, but we figured you won't want to spell the whole word out. And if you go to our website you can download for free a conversation toolkit. And if you go to our website, you can download for free a conversation toolkit. The preface, the introduction of the second edition. We've got a blog, just a whole series of resources on our website.

Speaker 1: 48:52

We also offer conversation boot camps. That we know. We know the practices are simple but as you said, kyle, they're not easy, and so our boot camps are really intense, experiential opportunities to practice retraining the brain. And we have two of them.

Speaker 2: 49:20

One is a kind of basic conversation boot camp and one is on strategic conversations Awesome, and we will have all that information in the show notes. So open up your podcast player, click in, check it out. Just some really great content and thank you for spending the time and investing your energy and expertise into this book. Really really been a great conversation today, certainly a conversation worth having, so thank you both.

Speaker 3: 49:41

Thank you so much, Kyle.

Speaker 2: 49:45

All right, that does it for the Rebel HR podcast. Big thank you to our guests. Follow us on Facebook at Rebel HR podcast, twitter at Rebel HR guy, or see our website at rebelhumanresourcescom. The views and opinions expressed by Rebel HR Podcast are those of the authors and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of any of the organizations that we represent. No animals were harmed during the filming of this podcast.