Speaker 1: 0:00

I like the word energy, because we know energy is real. It charges your phone, it gives us fuel. You talk about that from a scientific standpoint. It makes sense that you would have energy in your body. That's why you exercise and you eat. You're fueling yourself up, you're generating energy, and where is the lesson? For us to care for it? And that's where I started to realize there was a massive gap.

Speaker 2: 0:21

This is the Rebel HR Podcast, the podcast where we talk to HR innovators about all things people, leadership. If you're looking for places to find about new ways to think about the world of work, this is the podcast for you. Please subscribe to your favorite podcast listening platform today and leave us a review. Rebel on HR Rebels. Rebel on HR Rebels. Welcome back Rebel HR listeners. Really, really excited to welcome back to the Rebel HR podcast Sam Smelter. You may remember, Sam, we had her way back in episode 35, Weird but Effective HR. She is just an awesome, awesome person and I invited her back to talk about all sorts of things related to the workplace. She has a book coming out in June of 2022 called Workplace Healers and she has a podcast called the Heart of it Podcast. Welcome back to the show, Sam.

Speaker 1: 1:19

Thank you so much, Kyle. I'm so excited to be here. I loved our previous conversation and looking forward to continuing it today.

Speaker 2: 1:27

Absolutely, and I'm just extremely excited to reconnect and it's been almost a year since we last spoke and we were talking before I hit record. It's like a lot has happened this year, but I also feel like it still kind of feels the same and so it'll be. It'd just be great to kind of catch up and see where you're at. One of the things that really prompted this, this discussion, came from our community members, and you know I've been been talking to quite a few of you and you know I love discussing different topics with our listeners and getting connected to the HR community.

Speaker 2: 2:05

But there was a common theme that has kind of continued to come up and that has been how do I manage all this stress and how do I help my employees manage it? But then how do I personally work through all of the kind of the darkness of HR and this and scared employees and the challenges of today, and it just it seems like a lot of HR practitioners out there just feel a lot of weight and so I want to talk about that a little bit. You know, I think you know we talked about this in our last episode a little bit, but I want to do a little bit of a deep dive into your approach on helping the workplace be more comfortable, not only for employees, but also for HR professionals.

Speaker 1: 2:51

Yeah, and you know, kyle, I think you started the conversation just perfectly by saying that you know, a year ago, you know a year has passed but we have kind of been treading water per se. And I think even when we had that initial conversation, we were chatting and almost playfully like looking at tactics to kind of just navigate what we thought was going to be hopefully fingers crossed a short burst in our added workload and so much so. And I can tell you that even if I look at my clients in the last week, I have people that I was working with when we were recording the first time coming back because it's just too heavy and they can't handle it and even the tools that we did to get them to be sustaining are just not enough anymore. They're asking for further assistance. And you know, when we talk about stress management, I mean like we didn't have that figured out before all these things happened, like that was on all of our lists for corporate wellness, like figure out a stress management program that's effective so that we can have engaged and productive employees, and then we'll be part of that at some point as well.

Speaker 1: 4:00

And now look at the climate, and I love that you said, the dark side of HR. The whole world is just kind of in this dark, heavy place and as HR professionals we are holding the brunt of it, especially in the world of business. And I feel like I just think back to our first conversation and it was so fun and light. And now it does. It feels so heavy because this is the reality for so many people and it hurts me when people come into my office because I'm happy they feel safe here, but the fact that, like outside of there, they have to put up some massive armor because they're being responsible for so many things and look to for so many things that they like, we just none of us planned for this, absolutely yeah, and I think I think you use the right term.

Speaker 2: 4:54

You know it's. It's that heaviness it's, you know, and I mean you turn on the news and you see all sorts of negative negativity. You walk in your office and there's somebody waiting by your door with like, hey, I got to tell you about this. This is really messed up. You know, and I mean that you know we deal with that so much in our in our day to day, and I think one of the biggest challenges that, um, you know I really struggled with, especially earlier in my career, was we take all that on Right and I think most of us, most of us in HR, get into it because we want to help. We come from that service mindset where we want to help people.

Speaker 2: 5:28

In general, most of us like people. If you've been in HR long enough, maybe your thoughts have shifted that negativity. If you just kind of, if you just keep it in and you don't have some sort of way to to deal with that and and compartmentalize that, or or you know, you know, put those types of interactions into perspective. It's just, it just sucks. It can be really hard.

Speaker 1: 6:01

Yeah, yeah. And you know one of the things that, things that and forgive me, I won't completely retell this story because I think I did mention it on the first episode. But you know, my pathway started with the fact that I wanted to figure out employee engagement, starting with myself, because I found myself always routinely ending up in this place where I couldn't be of ultimate service, I couldn't help the people. That I was all inspired to do. I realized that that drive didn't last for an eternity and I was terrified of that natural evolution where we see what you talk about jokingly, but we all know you've been in there long enough and all of a sudden your opinion is just a little more pessimistic and it just slowly gets to a point and then you retire, kind of thing in the HR. And when I was on that path it led me to Eastern modalities. So for the last three, four years I've been studying and doing certificates in something called medical Qigong, which sounds really woo woo. It's just a branch of traditional Chinese medicine.

Speaker 1: 7:07

But what fascinated me about this and in relation to the work that we do as HR practitioners, is that it focuses on something called the energetic body. It focuses on the fact that we're more than just blood and skin and bones, and we're also more than just this soul that's going to go to whatever your belief is on an afterlife, that there is something that makes you, kyle, you and me, sam, and why there's connection and why there's dynamic and why there are people that are a cultural fit and not. It gave a tangible definition to those things by defining energy and the dynamics of my energy interacting with your energy, and that's why we have conflict and that's why we have team building and that's why all these things that we've been doing it gave an actual physical context to it that I could describe. Now, what I discovered while doing this work is that HR practitioners because we care for people so much we're technically in a healing capacity, but we don't classify it that way is that we're not trained with some of the things that doctors get, even massage therapists get, where they set boundaries with people so that they don't take on the stuff of their patients or their clients.

Speaker 1: 8:20

As HR, we pretty much immerse ourselves in everybody else's stuff, whether that's your boss's stuff, whether that's your boss's stuff, whether that is an employee going through a horrible kind of health crisis, and we've done that since the beginning of our profession, now magnified by the current climate that we're in and so what fascinates me is that, before any of this happened so before this heaviness that we're referencing Kyle we already were caring so much as HR practitioners, and that's why we were really relying on this short burst of crisis time, because I think we all kind of intuitively knew we're not going to be able to survive this in the long haul with the current workload that we already had. And so, just trying to put into context exactly what the situation is when you're experiencing and feeling that way, it's completely justified Because even though I, you know, I like the word energy, because we know energy is real. It charges your phone and gives us fuel. You know we talk about that.

Speaker 1: 9:20

From a scientific standpoint, it makes sense that you would have energy in your body. That's why you exercise and you eat. You're fueling yourself up, you're generating energy, and where is the lesson? For us to care for it. And that's where I started to realize there was a massive gap.

Speaker 3: 9:39

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Speaker 2: 10:31

I think it's that's. It's a really powerful story and I appreciate you sharing it again because you know, one of the things I had, um, you know, a little bit of an aha moment here a few months ago and I've I'm so lucky, I mean, this is just the best job ever.

Speaker 2: 10:42

I get to talk to all sorts of super smart people who are experts in their field and have studied a topic and you know, have put their truth on paper and you know, and or or have done amazing things in their career, and but but one of the things that I've continued to hear is that you know, um would consider woo-woo like a mindfulness practice for those who are extremely accomplished. Seems to be kind of a common thread that there's some methodology to manage the big ideas and the big stressors and the healthy boundaries, and when do I say yes and when do I say yes and when do I say no, and that seemed to be a common thread. And I think that the other comment that I would make on that is you know, to be honest, when you mentioned that when we spoke the first time, I'm like, okay, this is woo-woo, right. Like, oh, what is you know, qigong? I don't know what this is. Woo-woo, right. Like, oh, this, what is you know, qigong? I don't know what this is. It sounds like something that you know that's very like mysticism and doesn't make any sense.

Speaker 2: 11:53

But you know, what I had to do as we were having the conversation, and I continue to have to do, is I also have to realize that that is an internal bias that I have against that type of practice and that bias comes from the context of where I was raised. You know, I'm raised in the Midwest and rural Iowa, right, like, there weren't. Qigong was not something that was taught at Sunday school, right, you know, like. But that's a bias that I have to kind of check. And you know if we are, you know, working towards a more inclusive and welcoming and, and you know, collaborative society, then you know I do need to question some of those internal biases I had and and I think that's that's something that you know I would encourage everybody that's listening to this to be thinking about that, as opposed to maybe hearing something you don't understand or hearing something about Eastern medicine and thinking this sounds hokey. Actually take a step back and realize you know what this has been practiced for thousands of years. Maybe there's something to this.

Speaker 1: 12:55

Yeah Well, and I think you know and I said this before we hit the record button you know me going through these programs. I'm literally a fish out of water, like I don't match the mold of who's going through these certification programs, who are nurses and massage therapists and acupuncturists. I am the only HR person who's been in those classes to date. I'm the only one with a business background to date and I also was very skeptic. I'm the one in class when they talk about drinking something weird or doing some kind of weird cleanse.

Speaker 1: 13:26

I'm like you guys actually do that to yourself, like, um, and I remember there was one where they were talking about coffee enemas which, if you Google it, god bless you but, um, they were talking about the concoction for this enema but nobody's talking about the actual process of an enema. And I just thought that was so backwards because I'm like it's almost like there's an assumption that everybody in this room is okay with giving themselves an enema and I'm like that's not okay, that's not real. And they saw my face and thought, oh yeah, we got to bring it down a couple levels. So you know, to your point, kyle, I was right there where everybody has been, and I've basically been proven wrong time and time again.

Speaker 1: 14:04

Not on the enema thing, that's too far for me, I'll just put that out there. That's too far for me. But you know, with these basic kind of exercises whether they're meditation or doing stances or these postures or feeling energy, you know I went with it and then my life literally transformed and I couldn't argue with it anymore. And then I've been working with people now for the last five years doing little bits and pieces of this and I'm watching them turn into practitioners that I've never seen before. Being able to navigate things in organizations that I know would cause me to have a mental breakdown 10 years ago, I know would cause me to have a mental breakdown 10 years ago.

Speaker 2: 14:45

Yeah, so, uh. First of all, you know, if I had a like a bell or a siren to ring, that would be. You know, that's the first time somebody has mentioned coffee enema on the podcast. So congratulations, Sam, you just did it. I'm going to send you a t-shirt. It's all good, it's, it's awesome.

Speaker 1: 15:01

So that will be the clip that goes viral. Kyle, that will.

Speaker 2: 15:05

You know what, you never know what goes viral, but that one you know, I'm not there. I'm not there. I am confronting my biases, I am not doing that.

Speaker 1: 15:15

I'm not there either, so I like to put that on the spectrum of where I am on the woo. So before everyone goes instantly one way. I'm not at the coffee enema side, but I sat in class and learned about it.

Speaker 2: 15:30

That is not what the Heart of it podcast is about, just so everybody knows. You know the book doesn't go into that, but I think the heart of what you were just saying no pun intended was that it's different for everybody, right? So it's like you don't have to jump in and dive into the deep end, right? Some of these tactics really help, so I'll give you an example.

Speaker 2: 15:57

So when we spoke, you gave us a visualization exercise and I don't know if you remember, I don't know, if you remember it specifically or not, but it was about perceiving yourself when you're entering into kind of a negative situation and kind of building a protective barrier around yourself and then having that stuff kind of bounce off of that barrier right.

Speaker 2: 16:24

Like getting centered and then not letting, not absorbing, you know that type of energy.

Speaker 2: 16:30

And you know, I took that kind of that visualization and I'm, you know, I I've, I've tried it a couple of times and it worked.

Speaker 2: 16:40

And it was. And what I found is it didn't just work from the standpoint of me just not feeling yucky after a negative conversation. It allowed me to be more objective in my response and, as that happened, that was kind of that light bulb for me, like, oh, this is going to help me be better, right and and oh, by the way, this also helps me when I come home, because I'm a better dad and a better husband, because I'm not keeping all this stuff inside, and I feel like I'm being more objective and authentic as people are bringing challenges to me. Is, people are bringing challenges to me and I think it. You know whether you you meant for this to be the result or not, but I think it was that boundaries that you talked about, right, it was like it was like intentionally setting a boundary, almost an energetic boundary, for these types of situations. So so I think my question there in that story is so why does that work?

Speaker 1: 17:44

Yeah. So I mean building off, kind of what we're talking about, of current state, without doing something like that. How we function as HR practitioners is think of yourself as a gigantic mobile charging station. So as you're sitting in your office or you're moving around the workspace, um, people just run up to you and they're just plugging in and then they're downloading whatever they need and you're just like, okay, yeah, I'll take care of that. That's what we talk about. You know putting out fires and you're just navigating that on a regular basis.

Speaker 1: 18:15

What is happening in that exchange is they're able to take from you as well as give you, without you having any say how much you're actually taking on, well as give you without you having any say how much you're actually taking on. When you bubble up or we say armor up, and you create this barrier, which is, yeah, it's a, it's a woo, woo boundary, it's giving an actual context and definition to a boundary you get to say I don't need you to plug into me. I can hear what you're saying and I can answer that question objectively, and then I don't have to exert as much energy, because we know there are always problems, that we don't need to know everything about it or I don't have to be in there with you emotionally. Then you can have someone. Let's say that you have an employee who loses a loved one to COVID. They come in. You know they've been off, you know they seem emotionally off at work. You bring them in because you want to console them. You have the right to say here I'm giving you an outlet, you're going to be able to plug in because I'm going to be in this space with you. But then you're consciously controlling how much they're sucking from you, rather than you're saying I'm going to try to take all of your grief and carry it for you so that you can be okay and go back to work, which I think we think we can do that.

Speaker 1: 19:25

But you can't take somebody's anger and grief wholeheartedly. All you do is add it to yourself. And then you go home and you're like oh, I'm so sad because the world's just this awful place, or I'm so angry because. And then you're taking it out on your, your wife, your kids. I mean, I know that I've done it and so really why it works is because you're training yourself to say I'm an energetic being. I only got so much energy every single day and now I'm going to control how much I'm going to give and take and how much I'm going to preserve for the people who I love the most at home, because I hope that's usually the case. If you don't love those people the most at home that you're going home to, then maybe reevaluate your priorities.

Speaker 2: 20:04

That's another podcast probably.

Speaker 1: 20:05

Yes, probably.

Speaker 2: 20:08

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Speaker 2: 21:07

Don't wait, that's Namelycom. Rebel on that way, but it you know in that context, then you know it almost. To me, I would think, the next logical leap is well, you only have so much charge to give, right? So is so you know if you're depleting your energy, then how do you, I guess, how do you? How do you kind of balance that? You know that give and take as the day and weeks and months roll on?

Speaker 1: 21:47

So you said one of the key words in there. It is all about balance. So when we're talking about you know, the theme through all of this is that you know the way we function professionally is severely out of balance and that's not going to be fixed overnight. Severely out of balance and that's not going to be fixed overnight. Like I can make the argument that right now is the prime time for you to look at every job structure that you have within your organization and really question do they physically have to be in this space? Do they have to physically work that amount of hours? Does their schedule have to look like that? You know? Reevaluate PTO benefits, all that kind of stuff to really think about how can I bring more balance? And when we think about balance, it is the old school. I don't know if you remember this, kyle, but this is like what I grew up with the old yin and yang, like friendship bracelets, when I was back in grade school the white side and the black side, and sometimes they were mood rings and you know that.

Speaker 1: 22:39

So these balance symbols have been around for a long time. But um, that's what we're talking about is the yin and the yang, and the yang is this masculine, active energy, whereas the yin is a feminine, dark, reflective energy. It is restorative. When we have too much of one or the other, we can't function well. So think about when we were in a lockdown, those who could not go to work and have people interaction. When they started to get stir crazy too much yin energy, they were begging for yang energy.

Speaker 1: 23:13

Now, if we think about our current professional environment heavily yang like that's how we function and work here in corporate America. We push it as fast and as hard as possible. There's not a lot of room for yin. So my first thing to you is to look for ways to balance. This could be as simple as lunch is lunch it is nourishing myself and to make it a yin activity, I'm going to number one, eat something that's not going to cause my digestive system to have to work really hard to process it. And, number two, actually shut off all my electronics. Go someplace. If it's ideal, it's weather permitting outside and away from the work environment and really take that 20, 30 minutes.

Speaker 1: 23:59

I you know, when I was in my classes, he condoned a two hour lunch, which I thought was ridiculous but ended up being one of the best practices that we got introduced to, and that literally was an hour for eating and then an hour for digesting and napping. So I thought what in the world is he talking about? But literally we had nap time in my Qigong classes and so thinking about where can I incorporate more of this yin, this reflective practice whether that's going to a meeting and then pulling out your pad of paper and reflecting and brainstorming on all the ideas that you had or insights that you caught on, reflective practice is a form of yin. But when you're sitting there doing like payroll tasks, safety compliance, you know all those are young, active activities, and so one of the things I would, you know, challenge you to do is think about what's young, what's in in my place and what are the percentages and how can I try to bring them back so that they're 5050? You're not going to get there because that's going to take a while, but how can I start increasing that so that I have more balance? And if I can't do it during my work day, that's when you reevaluate what happens.

Speaker 1: 25:07

When you do go home, what does that practice look like? Because if you work all day and you're heavy, young for nine, 10 hours and then you're going to the gym and killing yourself for 90 minutes so I'm not talking about getting on a treadmill and zenning out, I'm talking about you're in there and you're like I hate this and this is awful, and I'm just more and more and more exhausted. You're just more young on top of young, so you're just depleting more energy. It's not causing any rebalancing to occur. So the first step is balancing.

Speaker 1: 25:35

The second thing I will tell you and Qigong is one of the few modalities that teaches this is that there is a way to fill up more energy and add to your reserves, which is why Qigong is getting some more attention nowadays, because you can actually like recharge some backup batteries that you can pull from during the days when things are really stressful, or, ideally, in a climate of what we're trying to navigate right now stressful, or ideally, in a climate of what we're trying to navigate right now. And so that's when they talk about cultivation practices, which is a lot of the work that I do and that's working with people in the business environment, figuring out what that practice looks like. Not like you know, you're stopping in the middle of the day and doing some kind of weird karate chop movement, but there is, like modern day cultivation practices that actually will give you extra energy that you can add, and then that kind of helps this whole kind of situation. So it's a very, very big energetic equation per se, I would say.

Speaker 2: 26:35

Fascinating. You know what's really interesting. Yes, I had a Yin Yang necklace. It was super sweet. I wore it when I was like a junior in high school and, I kid you not, my parents like dropped off a box of junk that was in the attic the other day and my daughter found the necklace and now she's wearing the thing around, so it is like continuing. So, yeah, I'm with you, I think. Yeah, I know that. But what's really interesting? So I'm, I'm going back and I'm rereading all these books that I read in in in college.

Speaker 2: 27:13

Yes, I am a nerd. One of those books was built to last and one of the visualizations that they use in that book is the yin and yang symbol, and it's the same thing. And what they, what they found in those organizations, was that those organizations that stuck around, they had they, they held their kind of their core purpose together and they pursued progress, but they did all of those things in balance, and so I think it's that's a really. It's. For me, it's kind of a really interesting that you know it's. This isn't just about the individual, this is about the organization and, to your point on, like you know, your org design and your job structures. Yeah, if, if, if. If you don't have that balance, I mean I guarantee you, everybody listening to this can think about the person that just burned themselves out because they didn't have balance.

Speaker 1: 28:07

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 28:08

Or the person that got let go because they didn't have balance, either because they were not as productive as they should have been or weren't as focused on the goal.

Speaker 1: 28:31

I mean I just think you kind of got to find the sweet spot, right, yeah, you know, I mean I just think it's got to be, you kind of got to find the sweet spot right.

Speaker 1: 28:41

Yeah, well, and I would fill your chief operational officer gets elevated to a chief executive officer, which was really meant to be a visionary role. And so when you're seeing that, almost like heavy young starting to populate those roles, just because the way we function in those professional positions, without that counter kind of development for the yin, what's happening to those organizations? And they're losing sight of their mission and their vision and their values. Some of them are becoming stagnant, some of them are becoming unethical, and so it's interesting to look at this just from a greater perspective, and that's that's why I love Chinese medicine. I mean, it talks about connecting us to the greater rhythms that surround us, which is nature and the planet and the sun and the moon. You know we have all these cycles and if you don't think those impact us the way they impact the weather and the other natural elements, like you are living under a rock, like we are a natural element as well, and we're we're not immune, we're not above nature.

Speaker 2: 29:45

Yeah, and to and to take it out of the whole, like the woo, woo. You know kind of that, the space that maybe some people are like, okay, this is a little far out there, kyle, but you know, at the end of the day we are animals and you know those, those natural elements impact all animals on this planet, period. You know and know. And it's what's the other thing, kind of. The other insight, as we're talking here is I'm thinking about you know, we're all talking about this great resignation and you know everybody. You know what is up with all these people who are reevaluating their lives and it's almost like you know what. Maybe they're just trying to find a little bit more balance and maybe your organization needs to meet them where they're at if you expect to actually hire these people and keep them employed and, um, you know it's, it's just it's, it's really interesting, it's really um. You know a fascinating principle that I think you know, I think about in the context of hr.

Speaker 2: 30:36

It's you know, how do we, how do we foster that, you know, in? Are there tactics or ways that we can take, maybe, this idea of balance and help our employees kind of live up to that, or seek out ways to help them do that?

Speaker 3: 30:59

We'll be back after a quick break. We'll be back after a quick break.

Speaker 4: 31:02

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Speaker 1: 31:49

AI for a 14 day free trial. Well, and I think you know when we're talking about this and I love that you're bringing me back into balance when things are a little too woo woo, because at the end of the day, if you take anything from this conversation and just flat out like, hit your CEO with it, he's going to be like or she, what are you talking about? Like, what were you listening to? And I think for me and the way that I've gotten traction, because people ask, like, how do you have a docket full of clients and this is all the work that you do? Like, how do you magically have all these people that are into the loo? And it is about embracing the small opportunities that are presented right now. You have so many. So, whether that's a vacancy with a job description that's posted that's not getting filled because of the great resignation of people not wanting to work, you know, ask to take risk on that one job description. What can we do to make this a more balanced position for this individual and more appealing? That's more appealing for other reasons than I just am paying the most money, because if you're going to play that game, we're all going to be bankrupt very quickly if we're all trying to outdo the other person on the pay scale. Same thing with like benefits, like we've. We're hearing it from a political standpoint our benefits don't match what people get in other countries, so they're not taking care of them from a wellness perspective.

Speaker 1: 33:05

You know, for the last three years I've done HR conferences that are created by HR students. The top topics are their personal wellness in the workplace and everyone's like, well, that's fooey. Like all these colleagues would say that's fooey. Why would we focus on that? I'm like this is your future workforce telling you that wellness is a top priority? So we've seen and this is before pandemic, so we're seeing the rumblings of this and if you try to tackle it all, you're going to just lose it. But if you tackle something small so a leader who's having balance issues, challenge yourself to collaborate with them how can they find more yin, even if it starts with? Because what happens is once they start to feel better and act better.

Speaker 1: 33:52

Someone else says what happened to John. Like John's like a completely different person. He like smiles now when he comes into the office and he's like well, all I do is I take this 90 minute lunch and I go and sit at the park and I eat a salad or something like that and, and you know, like that's all that you do. So that's something small. What if we do something more? I mean, I don't think we have to institute hour long meditations at the beginning of every day to get everyone there, although I will make the argument that if you gave me 10 minutes with Qigong exercises with your staff every day, I bet they would be more productive and more calm. But that's when we're on the other side of the woo-woo scale and when more people are doing coffee enemas.

Speaker 2: 34:38

Brought it full circle, Sam.

Speaker 3: 34:40

I love it. I love it.

Speaker 2: 34:42

That was masterful, that you worked at it again. So, okay, now we just got to work it in a third time and then, you know, I do think you know it is really, it's really interesting, it's, it's, you know, it's like starting a ripple, right and it's, and it's about being more mindful, and I, and I feel like the things that you just recommended, like, does anybody think it's a bad idea to rework a job description that ensures that the job is a realistic job preview and make sure that that job is appropriate for the person you're hiring? And if it's like asking somebody to do too much, then maybe we need a different job profile, right, like and that's part that's our job, right, that we can impact that Like, what does this work design look like? What does this organizational design look like? Why does this leader have 65 direct employees? There's no way in the world that they're going to be an effective leader or have any time to do anything besides deal with employees, you know. So it's like, okay, well, maybe we need to like, we have those conversations and decisions all day long and if you think, just think about it in a different context, it'd be pretty, could be pretty life-changing, in my opinion and I would say, you know you talk about not doing an hour-long meditation for your team, but you do need to make a workspace allow for mindfulness. In my opinion, you have to. You know, I know. So we're going through, we're building a new building, which is wonderful and exciting and frustrating project at the same time.

Speaker 2: 36:24

But what you know, a lot of dialogue's been around quiet space. You know, like, how are we structuring this building so that there's enough quiet space? Like, how are we structuring this building so that there's enough quiet space? And if you know, if my only objective was to cram as many people into this building as possible, then we would not have that quiet space.

Speaker 2: 36:39

But I have employees who need that time and they need, they need to be able to leave their cubicle and go find some sort of respite throughout the day. So why would I not intentionally build a space for them? Right, you know, and you know, and if, if we weren't thinking in those terms, we're going to, we're going to make the workspace a little bit less comfortable for some folks, right? And I would just say, like, from my standpoint, you know, 20 minutes minimum before my day starts for me to have a mindfulness practice is a game changer. If I don't do it, I'm completely off my game the rest of the day and I feel like I just operate from a point of firefighting, and so it's like you know whether you do it at your workplace or not. I would encourage you know everybody to have some sort of practice where you can have that, that space.

Speaker 1: 37:31

Well and I you know you're in a perfect situation when you're designing a new building, but you're absolutely correct is walk through your office space and see. Doesn't embrace that opportunity to do that. I mean, if your conference rooms are sterile and you can't wait to get out of there fast enough, are they really going to sit there and brainstorm and reflect on how they can be better at their work? And the other piece of this is like even lunch, like the building that my team works in. When we got here, we found the break ground. It was down in an unfinished basement and the only reason we knew was the cabinet was filled with all of the stuff that you would have in an employee break room.

Speaker 1: 38:09

And I was like these employees had to sit in this cold, musty break room so they never took their lunches, they never took any, like they would eat at their desks. And so could you imagine the opposite If you had this beautiful, like large windows or outside garden space? I mean, we have a hospital, like right down the street. They have a walking path that's two miles because they have the land for it and they encourage the community to come use it. But the employees use that, and so you know there's something about nature. I forget who it is, but there is a company out and then this was me being educated by some of my college students, which is probably why I'm not hip enough to know who it was specifically. But there are companies that are out West who make time for their employees to go surfing because they've seen the productivity increase when they get them outside.

Speaker 1: 38:59

There you go. Thank you See, I'm not hip. There you go. That's another nerd.

Speaker 2: 39:04

That's a college book. Yvonne Shannar, the CEO, wrote the book. Let my people go surfing, but yeah, that's you know what. That just reminded me. I got to reread that book.

Speaker 1: 39:14

Yeah, so I mean. But I mean like those things. I mean thinking outside the box. That's bringing more yin into the workplace. That's better than those One of those biggest loser programs we used to do or make it on this scale, don't remind me.

Speaker 2: 39:29

All right, we're going to go there, we're going to go here. So um I wellness programs like in their traditional format drive me crazy. The whole like the biggest loser program. Um was my least favorite thing to do and I it felt like it's like we're turning this thing that's supposed to be healthy and fun and exciting into this competition amongst the same 10 people that always do these challenges and the other 300 people are like this is a stupid thing again.

Speaker 1: 40:03

Very accurately recapped that pile. We all just went right back there Feeling it, feeling it right now.

Speaker 2: 40:08

Yeah, let's do weigh-ins, let's go make everybody stand on a scale, let's record that number, because everybody loves that, and let's get employee engagement up. Anybody who's with me, right? Who in a room thought this is going to be great.

Speaker 1: 40:23

What's even better is let's use the break room bulletin board to track it and give everybody like a icon of some sort so we could all see it.

Speaker 2: 40:32

And the best part is guess who is like the obligatory team captain, HR, right? So like all of us who are like this is the stupidest thing ever, but corporate's making me do this thing. Guess, I get a weigh-in every week. Here you go. Sorry, you know it feels great. I love this.

Speaker 1: 40:47

But I'll give you a Fitbit.

Speaker 2: 40:53

Yeah, here's a Fitbit, yeah, here's a Fitbit. And, and you know what, the the winner gets an iPad right, or an iPod, or it was an iPod. At that point, oh, good stuff, I don't miss. We don't do that in my. Yeah, we don't do that in my company, but, uh, you know, I do, you know, I. I think I don't know what your opinion there is, but I think part of the issue with that type of an approach is it's, you know, wellness is so personal, you know, and well being is so personal, and it's a whole lot more than how heavy are you?

Speaker 1: 41:21

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think that's you know what we're talking about here. I mean, you know, I would love to be able to hop on and say here are the top five ways to make everything go away. It's not going to work like that. It's different for every one of us. Even the way that I do Qigong is different than all of my peers in my programs. The way that we cultivate our energy it's very different.

Speaker 1: 41:45

Some of them do practice an hour a day, minds in short bursts throughout the day. And even Kyle, you said after our last conversation talking to the people you've built a practice that works for you and makes sense for you, and that's the only time that it's effective. If you try to pick up something, you might get a piece of a part that's meant to be your practice and just recognize that. Don't think that one's supposed to be the answer and if you can't do it, that you're a failure and it doesn't work for you. My biggest pet peeve is when people say I can't do that. I can't quiet my monkey mind. I'm just a very active person. What I hear is you're a very young person and you even need yin more than ever.

Speaker 2: 42:30

So you just described me 100% in more than ever. So you just described me 100%. I mean, I and you know to get a little bit personal here so I am a um, you know, a workaholic in many respects. Um, especially during COVID quarantine, cause that's just all I did, is I just worked. Um, I'm a triathlete and so you know more hard, hard exercise, push yourself as hard as you can, push yourself as long as you can until you, your body, breaks down.

Speaker 2: 43:02

And I had absolutely no, no practice that allowed for any sort of mindfulness or quietness or anything, until a few months ago, after listening to all these smart people say hey, you know, this is something you should think about. And I just downloaded an app for free and started listening to guided meditations and I found that visualizing for me it's the kind of the chakra visualization and, for whatever reason, it works for me. You know, and I don't know, you know I I'm not like doing like crystal healing or anything like that, but for me that just the just focusing my mind on that allows my mind to quiet down, and then, and then what's pretty cool is then it allows my mind to start to wander into things that are actually kind of the intent of what I want to focus on and think about, things like my family and and kindness and and you know, and and respect for others and the, the true person that I want to be Right and, but it's but like, if I can do it, anybody can do it, because I'm just like monkey mind is like, that's like the definition of how my mind works. I mean that's um, that's just the way it is. So I mean I, I would encourage everybody to think about it.

Speaker 2: 44:17

I mean there's so much information out there. Um, there's a million different apps. Most of this stuff is free. Um, you can, you can get, you know, get a teacher, get somebody to help you. Uh, and, with that in mind, sam, I want to ask how can our listeners connect with you and learn more about your practice and just and and get a little bit more information on this topic?

Speaker 1: 44:41

Yeah, absolutely so. The best way to get ahold of me is to go to our website, which is the heart centercom. It's spelled H R A R like HR art center, so my center is completely devoted to HR practitioners and helping them, because that's how much, how dedicated I am to this work. And just a couple things to plant seeds. I know the reason why you brought me on Kyle, and we have a program that's like an eight week disengagement detox program that's specially made for HR practitioners to basically an eight weeks, feel like yourself again and remove all the heaviness. That's specially made for HR practitioners to basically, in eight weeks, feel like yourself again and remove all the heaviness that's happening. We do that in group coaching, so it's also a great supportive community. When you hear about that, you're not alone with all of this. And then the other piece is if you're somewhat intrigued by Qigong. I know it sounds really woo woo and my dad would say that he thinks this whole thing is a gigantic scam. As I tell you this so that you know what I mean.

Speaker 1: 45:39

But we do distance healing as well. So that means that wherever you are, I can actually connect with you on zoom and do the energy protocols to care for your energy, which is removing things that doesn't serve. It, give you more energy and also make you more balanced. And I am a skeptic myself, and anytime somebody is willing to take a chance on me, let's say that there's the take a chance on me kind of guarantee. I'm not going to charge you if you feel like you just got duped. So but yeah, check it out on the website. There's tons of resources there. And then, obviously, on my podcast, the Heart of it podcast, it's me and a bunch of other great guests to hop on. We talk about making woo-woo more normal, but also a lot of things that we talked about today. How should we be reevaluating the way that we're doing work in this great opportunity that we're being given?

Speaker 2: 46:29

Absolutely, and I wanna make sure I also mentioned that the book is coming out it's called Workplace Healers in June of 2022. So go out there, get a pre-order. Check it out, Sam. This has just been a wonderful conversation. I just want to thank you for doing the work and helping to make this, this type of practice, a little bit more mainstream and and help some people that really need this type of support get connected to it. So thank you so much for all the work you're doing.

Speaker 1: 46:58

Thank you so much, Kyle. And then I expect next year we'll do this again and I'll give the tutorial on coffee enemas.

Speaker 2: 47:05

Okay, we did it three times. We mentioned it three times. Hopefully that doesn't get us banned from the podcast platform. I think we're probably okay, sam. It's been a pleasure. Thank you so much. We'll talk soon.

Speaker 1: 47:18

Thanks, Kyle Thanks.

Speaker 2: 47:20

All right, that does it for the Rebel HR podcast. Big thank you to our guests. Follow us on Facebook at Rebel HR podcast. Twitter at Rebel HR guy or see our website at rebelhumanresources R podcast. Twitter at Rebel HR Guy or see our website at RebelHumanResourcescom. The views and opinions expressed by Rebel HR podcast are those of the authors and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of any of the organizations that we represent. No animals were harmed during the filming of this podcast.

Speaker 1: 47:50

Baby.