Speaker 2: 0:03

This is the Rebel HR podcast, the podcast about all things innovation in the people's space. I'm Kyle Rode. Let's start the show. Welcome back, rebel HR community. We are going to have a fun conversation today. We have somebody who is a like minded individual as myself. His name is Ben Eden. Ben is a best-selling author of a book that is available now how we See Ourselves. We're going to be talking all about how we can use how we see ourselves to be successful in today's world. Ben, welcome to the show.

Speaker 2: 0:40

Thank you so much, kyle. Happy to be here. Well, I'm super happy that you are here. Finally, we connected probably almost five years ago for the first time and I think at that point I'm like this guy's awesome, we should totally have you on the podcast. And then it just didn't happen. So I'm so happy it's it's happening now and and um, in that time that time, I think when we first spoke, you were just starting your business and just starting to get stuff launched. Congratulations on your success and congratulations on this book. I'm really excited to talk about it today and just excited to have you on the show.

Speaker 3: 1:18

Thank you so much. Yes, it's definitely been a journey, but a fun one.

Speaker 2: 1:22

Yeah, likewise, a lot has happened in the last five years. I don't even think I'm the same human that you spoke to five years ago. I think that's most of us through COVID, right, yeah? So I want to ask you the question I ask all authors, which is you know, quite simply, what motivated you to write this book, why this topic?

Speaker 3: 1:44

Well, I'll jump right into a short story. Does that sound okay?

Speaker 2: 1:47

Perfect.

Speaker 3: 1:48

Awesome. So, yeah, I mean, even growing up I never really had the idea nor the goal to write a book, but it came to me over the last few years and here's why the book is called how we See Ourselves, and it's all about how self-perception drives not only the success that we achieve but the happiness we experience along the way. So I learned this when I was an HR executive and I had done what most of the world teaches on how to achieve success. I did the bachelor's degree, I did the master's degree, I became a senior certified professional. I started as an intern, I grew to manage the department and helped grow this company to become international. Yay, success, right, yeah. And all this was in my 20s and I'm thinking, okay, I made it. But after a number of things happened and one day my boss comes to me and says Ben, we have nothing against you, we just hate HR. I thought, well, I'm HR, so how am I supposed to take that? Everything that I've done in these last few years has grown my identity as an HR professional. And if you say you hate that, then I understand it to mean you hate me and everything about me.

Speaker 3: 2:59

And here's what's interesting Society teaches us to chase results. I mean, if you think about it when you're going to school, what are you supposed to get A's? And if you get A's, what does that mean about you? Oh, you're a smart kid, you're an, a student, you're capable and everything else. But what if you get an F? What does that mean about you? Well, it means you're a failure. At least that's how people interpret it. But the interesting thing is, an F grade does not mean failure. It means a failing grade. But we don't talk about it that way because we too quickly identify ourselves based on the results that we have.

Speaker 3: 3:34

So, learning this, even as I was an HR executive in my 20s and everybody's like dude, you made it. You got the picture perfect life, traveling the world and having all the things. I was suffering in silence because now I thought, well, am I? I felt undervalued and unwanted and even a necessary evil. Yeah, and when you feel this way, when your confidence is shot, you either underperform or you're overcompensate. And so I tried those things and I turned to coping mechanisms to try to feel better. I ultimately turned to an addiction and of course, those didn't work. So I discovered therapy.

Speaker 3: 4:09

I discovered coaching changed the way that I saw myself and the world I saw started to change. I started to think well, hold on here. Even though they hate HR, that doesn't mean I am a terrible person. I still have a lot of value to offer. And what was cool is I turned this around and I went to my professional friends and I'm like hmm, you're successful. Have you ever felt unvalued, unwanted, not good enough? And they're like bro, we often feel this way. The problem is nobody talks about it. So then, after four or five years of coaching and it always comes down to how they see themselves, no matter the result that they're going for confidence at work, promotions, making more money, losing weight, whatever it happens to be always comes down to that. I started to think oh, why am I have a book in here?

Speaker 2: 5:00

yeah, so you know it's, it's. It's funny listening to you talk because I'm literally like, oh well, you're describing my experience, you know, and it's very similar, right, and just happened to be at the right place at the right time, with the right people around me and, um, in the right circumstances and, you know, found myself in a successful HR career. Um, and also found myself surrounded with people that didn't want me there, right, you know. Now they liked me as as me, but they hated my profession, they hated what I stood for. Right, like you, still got the jokes. You know, hr is here, we can't have, we can't have fun anymore. Right, exactly, say what you want to say, you know, and it's, it's like as much as you want to, like, you know, laugh it off, it sucks. Right, and and and I I would say you know, from my standpoint, very similar experience to you, where you question your self-worth and you and you wonder what.

Speaker 2: 6:10

You know, who am I? Because this is my identity. It was my identity in many cases, in many places and and certainly in many people's eyes, it is still my identity. I'm that, I am literally called the HR guy. You know, in like the, like my circle, but, um, that's part of what this podcast is about is like like throwing that away, rejecting that right, rebelling against that, that identity. And so I I love your approach on um self perception because I think I think that is so much the root of where the problem exists, and so I'm fascinated to kind of through your work and the work you've done with clients and some of your research and just your own personal self-work. What are the steps now that we're in a safe enough space to admit this? What are the steps where we can start to build ourselves back up from this unfair external perception that so many people have about us?

Speaker 3: 7:17

Yeah, that's a great question. So we'll break this apart a little bit and I'll give you two stories to relate and then we'll get into this solution. And, as you were mentioning before this episode, you know, unfortunately media and tv shows put paint hr in a negative light. Right, say, the office and, and you know, hr professionals there, and it's terrible. When I first got into hr and everybody said that first of all I hadn't watched the episodes, I'm like what are you talking about? Like who's?

Speaker 2: 7:43

Toby. And then you watch it and you're like, oh, come on, man, yeah for real.

Speaker 3: 7:48

So then that's their funny definition of HR. And then what they see as reality is the CEO is like, ah, they're just a cost center. Your coworkers are like, I have no idea what HR does. And all the employees say, oh, hr is just a bottleneck. So it's like well shoot, everybody thinks this. So what am I supposed to think about myself? And unless we have a very strong foundation, support and way of locking in our strong identity, then it's easy to believe what people think. Then you just go to work and say, well, I guess I'll handle payroll and I guess I'll do compliance and I guess I'll just be here so you don't get sued. Yeah, you know, and that's no fun. Yeah, that sucks. And you know what's interesting? I think this is funny. I speak to a lot of hr conferences, or yeah, hr professionals at these conferences. And boy do hr professionals party after the conference what are you talking about, ben?

Speaker 2: 8:44

I I've never seen that.

Speaker 3: 8:47

And I'm thinking well, yeah, this is the one time they actually get to let loose and have fun. Everywhere else they have to be HR right, totally.

Speaker 2: 8:54

If you want to see crazy, go to an HR conference, put HR in the wild and don't let anybody else from their company go with them, and then just watch it unfold. It's fascinating, exactly. And if you're listening to this podcast and you don't know what I'm talking about, you need to get out more exactly conference, you'll see what I mean and then I'll share a recent example.

Speaker 3: 9:18

So I've been to a few conferences with johnny c taylor, who's the president of national sherm right, and he shared a story, a few years ago actually, when he met with a group of very high level CEOs and just asking them hey, what do you think about your HR professionals and how's it going and everything else. And they said my HR professional is one of the most important employees in my company. The problem is they don't see that and so powerful statement right there.

Speaker 3: 9:48

Yeah, so some people are saying it. Unfortunately, a lot of us live in this situation where the boss just doesn't appreciate it. I do think we're making progress, where people are starting to appreciate HR and because we're in a place in this world where we are set up to step up, if that makes sense. Because literally last week I was in a meeting with Johnny C Taylor talking about AI and human intelligence. Guess what they were saying? That AI is not a tech, not an IT problem. It is an HR situation because we get to see how to integrate human intelligence with all this other intelligence that's coming down the line and that's crucial because we can step into a place of extreme value on the strategic level. But if we have a self-perception of, well, I'm just HR, let somebody else deal with it, we're missing an opportunity.

Speaker 2: 10:51

I love that and I couldn't agree more. We're supposed to be the experts on how to work. Sorry, I'm distracted. There's somebody carrying a really cute baby outside the window. Anyways, talk about human intelligence. I'm like what is that?

Speaker 3: 11:09

And since we're going to edit this, I'm going to pause. Your image is frozen, but can you hear me and see me? Okay, I can hear you and see you, yeah.

Speaker 2: 11:16

It will, like the Zencaster will lag it and then it will catch back up. So you're good, okay, perfect, which is funny. I'm like literally plugged in in my office fiber optic internet, so whatever. Anyways, no, okay, rewind, Edit this out. Thank you, okay.

Speaker 2: 11:39

I could not agree more about the importance of HR taking ownership of things like AI. It's a great. It's a great like kind of a case study on like. Hey, we need to like, own this and become don't understand it. We need to become the experts on it, because we're the experts on how to do stuff, or we should be right. We should be, we should be making sure people understand what their job expectations are, how we, how work is designed, how's the org structure design and how ai fits into that in the day-to-day, and how we can integrate that and, oh, by the way, how we can keep people from freaking out that they're not like losing their jobs if ai starts to like.

Speaker 2: 12:20

There's all these different aspects of ai that we just need to embrace and help people figure out. Right, I'm totally, totally with you. That's, that's a really great example of like. We have an opportunity to step up right like. There's so many, there's so many of those other situations that have happened just in the last five years. Right, like we, like, like I. I like to say all the time like, okay, if it's not us stepping up and helping our organizations out, then who is right? Like we're supposed to be the experts on people and all this, most of this stuff. People problems, right, or or rather, people, challenges and opportunities for us to help figure out yeah, and to your point, if we don't step up, guess what Somebody else will.

Speaker 3: 13:04

Who's much less qualified? Right, right, won't solve the problems as they need to be.

Speaker 2: 13:12

Yeah, I couldn't agree more and I think you know, I think the statement you made about those CEOs right that where they find HR extremely important is how can we take that kind of that mindset and how can we overlay that with our perceptions of ourselves and help ourselves show up with the confidence and capability to step into that role that our leadership team actually needs us to be stepping into?

Speaker 3: 13:41

Yes, good. So I'm going to get to that right now. I'm going to catch on some words that you used, because what I do as a coach, I mean it's very powerful. Powerful the language that we use, because we have so much definition associated with the words we use. So, in other words, you had said, hey, we are the hr experts or we are hr. That can have a powerful positive connotation. It can also have a negative connotation I'm hr because it has just so much weight to that right.

Speaker 3: 14:11

Yeah, I would invite us not to just define ourselves by I am hr. I would first define ourselves as experts who do hr. Okay, let me explain what that means. I mean, ceo has a title that usually the weight is wow, they're in charge of a bunch of things. Even the title CFO often has okay, they're the money guy, right, but HR, as is, sometimes has that negative connotation.

Speaker 3: 14:39

So what I would very much encourage and this is what I teach you first establish who you are, separate from that title, separate from the role of HR, and then you can show up as the confident professional who happens to run the HR side of the business. When you do that, you can come to the room and see Kyle as Kyle and so-and-so as so-and-so, and you're all human beings who happen to have a different angle on things finances, operations, human resources, awesome. And when you do that, then you separate yourself from the connotations, whatever they may be, of HR and then you can say look from my place of confidence and expertise, here's how we need to handle things. It separates whether I'm going to take it personally or not. It allows you to make better decisions because it's not so tied to your worth. It says this is the best decision for the company and I can say that with confidence because I've worked on my own self-confidence.

Speaker 2: 15:45

I love it. I love it and I think that, interestingly, when I got into human resources, I did not go to school for HR, I fell into it. I have a business degree. I was in operations and IT before human resources and I've always identified myself as I'm just I'm a business professional that happens to do HR right, like that's kind of that's. That's kind of how I've described myself as I've and I would.

Speaker 2: 16:17

I would tell you that the business leaders that I've interacted with and worked with over the years have appreciated that my perspective and perception is specifically from a business, like a holistic business lens, not just like a very short-sighted, like it's just HR right, like a ton of view. But the reality is, I think so much of that is because that's just the identity that I've projected from the beginning. Right, I'm doing the same thing that most HR professionals do. I'm focusing on compliance and making sure we're paying equitably and fairly. You know, trying to. You know be a good coach, identify great talent, make sure I have great recruiting practice. I'm doing all the same stuff, but I'm showing up in a way where my identity is broader than the role that I play, right, and so I think like anchoring to that difference of identity. While it might seem really subtle, it's a big deal right. And eventually, if you identify as a certain thing, eventually you start to believe it right, even if you don't, like, necessarily know exactly what that means.

Speaker 3: 17:28

Yeah, now I'll add to that with a little example and story. In my book, how we See Ourselves, I talk about what's called the Eden model and it breaks down sections of how our brain works. Most of us focus on results, so we focus on behaviors and say, well, since I'm HR, I have to do this and even in business, you have to do this to get this result. Work more hours, whatever it is. But we don't talk about are the emotions we experience, the thoughts we have and everything else. So the point that I'm getting at is by using the model correctly, which is upside down compared to what most people experience. Is you not experience? Is you identify yourself as you want to be, as the person who's going to get those results? First? Most people say, okay, the result, I'm going to chase it, but based on who I am, it's not going to work.

Speaker 3: 18:21

So here's the example she just read my book. I've never coached her, but she read my book and she's like this is amazing, because about 10 years ago she was very active in the gym. She had grown up being an athlete and loved being athletic, but for the last eight years she had struggled to go to the gym. She had struggled to just be active and be proud of her body. She had done all of the important things reading the books, trying the diets, doing the things but nothing was working until after she read my book and learned the importance of identity. She simply told herself I am an athlete. And because she saw herself that way and believed it when she told me this story, she had been going consistently to the gym for the last 13 weeks. Awesome, so it's super powerful. How we define ourselves influences everything else that we do. To your point, if I'm just HR, how are you going to act? Or if I'm a business expert who happens to run HR, how are you going to act differently there?

Speaker 1: 19:28

Yeah.

Speaker 3: 19:28

Or if you are a very confident human being who makes a difference in this world, who has a passion for human behavior and how it can impact the business results, who happens to be in charge of HR. Imagine the results that that type of person will get. Can you sense the difference?

Speaker 2: 19:45

Yeah, yeah it's a really, really powerful thing. You know I think it's fascinating and there's um, you know there's there's a litany of research around this and I know I know you're a parent. You know, like, if your kids identify as being a certain way or not, their behavior is in, in, like, and the outcomes is actually is actually drastically different, like, so you know, if you like, like for me, like, I tell my kids, you know, we are kind, we are roads, that's who we are, we are kind as people. You know that that that's a really powerful ripple effect for them to believe Right. And you know, hopefully, if I'm doing everything else right, hopefully they'd turn out to be kind human beings when they grow up. Right, like, that's that's the hope and I think it's the same. It's that same concept that that so often I think we trick ourselves into being less effective than we are.

Speaker 2: 20:40

Or I think the other thing I'm I'm fascinated to get your opinion on this is I think in HR we have a lot of people who are people pleasers. I think in HR we have a lot of people who are people pleasers. Naturally, like, people want to be liked and so they kind of modify their behavior to reflect how people that long term, you're going to die inside Because you're not actually going to be yourself, you're not actually going to be authentic, you're going to kind of be just a wet noodle and kind of flowing with the wind and people aren't going to know who you are. So so for those of us that are maybe struggle with that, where it's like you're trying to get people to like you or or or you're aware that there's a negative perception, you're trying to modify that. How can we, how can we do that without, like, losing our core identity or our sense of self?

Speaker 3: 21:52

so the question is how can you adapt to people and enjoy being with people without losing your sense of self? Was that?

Speaker 1: 21:57

the question.

Speaker 3: 21:58

Yeah, yeah, okay well, what it comes down to first is the hard work of knowing who you are in the first place. And I say it's hard, or can be hard, because, unfortunately, most of us have gone through society being defined by our experiences, our results and our relationships, and we've had to change color so many times to fit the mold of wherever we are. And it's exhausting and to your point, at the end of the day, you're like I have no idea who I am, or I've identified myself so much with this role because this role is currently working, but then, when they consider leaving or changing their career or changing whatever it is they're like, there's no way I can do that because I have no idea who I am outside of this role or this title. So it does take work and I won't say there's a magic answer to it. So it does take work and I won't say there's a magic answer to it, but I would invite you to ponder after you listen to this podcast and just ponder this question who am I outside of my HR role? And you will probably. It might be some serious introspection, you may not like it, it may be uncomfortable and I will say, and it will be very rewarding. Okay, I would invite you to journal. Write these things down, get it out of your head and see what you write, and if you're thinking this wow, this is a bunch of negative stuff.

Speaker 3: 23:21

Okay, awareness is first and then we can decide well, who do you want to be outside of your HR role? And that's where some powerful transformation can occur. Where you can add to it is supporting or surrounding yourself with the right people. If you have a community, be with them. Help, you know, be in a place where people can see you outside of your HR role. That helps decide an identity. If you believe in a higher power, you know God can tell you those things right. So there's a lot of elements that can help you understand who you are outside of your HR role. But it is crucial to understand that because otherwise, back to your point. Sometimes we define HR as well.

Speaker 3: 24:01

I got into HR because I'm a people person. I like being with people, I want them to be happy at work, I want to make the termination not feel so bad and it's well, that doesn't work, yeah, so knowing who you are outside of the HR role helps you perform even better in the HR role. And how do you adapt to people Well because you understand yourself. You have a much better understanding of others and you can respond in. You know some adaptable ways in the how to win friends and influence people. Right, you can say great, I know how to listen, I know how to ask questions, I know how to talk about what they like and all of the tactics that are important without you having to change who you are. Yeah, I love that.

Speaker 2: 24:46

I think it's really interesting because there's so much power in being authentic, right and so, but but we're we're seeking something right, and and I think, in general, you know that that's that's most people that like are extroverted, right, like we're just trying to connect with others. It's how we gain energy, it's it's you know, it's, it can be really really enjoyable. But, but in order to show up for others, you have to be able to show up for yourself, right like. You have to know who you are, and you know an example that I'll use. So you know, I used to be the guy that was like super professional at work, like I didn't blend personal professional at all, and you know, I showed up kind of, and I played the part really well, right, but that's really what it was. It was like I felt like I was an actor, right.

Speaker 2: 25:56

And what's interesting is, through a couple pivotal moments and through community work, through some volunteer work, I had a couple light bulbs go off where it's like hey, I want to fight for this cause, for this nonprofit, and I'm going to do that and I'm not going to be ashamed of it. I'm going to share it broadly within the organization that I'm doing it. Guess what happened. Other people started to find benefit in that or saw me as a human being, and then I was getting brought into other things.

Speaker 2: 26:23

My career actually took off specifically because I chose to start to be kind of my myself within the context of this professional persona that I was building, and so you know, I could not agree more that once you find that thing that makes you tech and who you are, and you start to do that work, good things happen, both personally and professionally, and for me, it's that is kind of the secret to success and and at the end of the day, I, I think I, I think you would agree with this I think that's how you make work more fun and enjoyable, right, when you can actually show up as your whole self and and and and do that work in a way that that's like fulfilling your own self identity yeah, you know, that's great.

Speaker 3: 27:16

This thought came to my mind and it's this aspect of a different mindset, but also an element of fun. So try this instead of introducing yourself and saying hey, I am hr, you say I am kyle, my name is kyle, I do hr. That feels so different. And then somebody's like whoa kyle, tell me about you and not just, oh, I'm hr. What the heck does that mean? Or I already know what that means I couldn't agree more.

Speaker 2: 27:41

I one of the one of the best facilitator tricks I've ever seen, and it's not even a trick, it's just like. It's just who he is. Uh, one of my, one of my dear friends and and he's been a guest on this podcast before his name's Bob Kelleher. Before he does a presentation, he literally shows a slide with him about him and his family and he's a family man and he talks about he just talks about who he is as a human being, before he talks about all the accolades and he's got all the accolades and all the books and the bestsellers and and the story career. But it's it's bob, the man that gets people to buy in before bob, the you know guy who wrote literally wrote the book on employee engagement, right, you know, it's like that's exciting and interesting for you know, for me, just because it's like I'm like, wow, that's really cool. But I love Bob because of who Bob is, not because of what Bob has done.

Speaker 2: 28:36

To go circle all the way back to where we started this, right, it's about who you are, not your accomplishments, right, not the grade that you get in school. So I love that. I love that, that, that approach, um, so so we're, we're coming kind of, you know, towards, towards the end of our time together. I warned you when we hit record, I'm like we're going to just get warmed up and then we're going to, then it's going to be over, right? Um, we're going to shift gears. I want to, I'm fascinated to get your, to get your, uh, your response to the, the rebel hr flash round. Are you ready? Ready, all right. So, question number one given what we've talked about, where do we need to rebel?

Speaker 3: 29:33

okay, yes, exactly what we're, what we've been talking about. You need to rebel on this way that hr is seen but, most importantly, how you see yourself. No longer define yourself as I'm just the hr guy or HR person. Right, I am Ben, who happens to do HR and watch what happens.

Speaker 2: 29:55

I love it. Question number two who should we be listening to?

Speaker 3: 30:02

Broadly. You should be listening to the people who believe in you and who know who you are as a person, so that identity is super strong. And then, just as an example, since I brought him up in the podcast, johnny C Taylor, he believes in you as a person and what you can do.

Speaker 2: 30:20

Love it. Final question how can our listeners connect with you?

Speaker 3: 30:25

You know, go to my website howwesee see ourselvescom. That's where you can get a copy of the book and how you can connect with me. I on a lot of social media. I do a lot of work so you can watch me speak, you can connect to me in some group sessions and I can help address what you're going through and help strengthen that identity that allows you to not only get better results but, most importantly, the experience happiness along the way.

Speaker 2: 30:49

I love it. We will have all that information in the show notes, so take a moment, open up your podcast player and click on in the book. Again is how we See Ourselves. It is available now where books are sold Best-selling title. And congratulations again to Ben on all your success and thanks for spending just a few minutes with us here today.

Speaker 1: 31:12

Thank, you so much, Kyle. All right, that does it for the Rebel HR podcast. Big thank you to our guests. Follow us on Facebook at Rebel HR Podcast, Twitter at Rebel HR Guy, or see our website at rebelHumanResourcescom. The views and opinions expressed by Rebel HR Podcast are those of the authors and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of any of the organizations that we represent. No animals were harmed during the filming of this podcast.